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Old 21st September 2021, 10:43 AM   #81
eerok
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They can arrest him for something else, and add the charge of murder when they get the evidence, or never if they can't find it.
They can start with auto theft, since he took her van.

Oops, ninja'd
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't believe any of this is true. Whether he talks or not, I'm positive he can be held for up to 48 hours.

This isn't TV where the lawyer says, "Are you going to charge my client, or are we free to go?" and then they walk out. He's a suspect in a murder investigation, he can be held, I'm positive of it.
He can be held for a short time, maybe even longer than 48 hours, but he doesn't have to answer questions or provide evidence. And eventually they have to let him go.
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:47 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He can be held for a short time, maybe even longer than 48 hours, but he doesn't have to answer questions or provide evidence. And eventually they have to let him go.
They could hold him, but questioning would have to end once he invoked his right to silence and his desire for an attorney. Since he already has done both, seems like a moot point. His lawyer would almost certainly advise him to remain silent. Seems extremely unlikely to me that someone who has already decided to keep their mouth shut, only to be encouraged by their criminal defense lawyer to do so, would have change of heart.

I can't think of what purpose it would serve to bring him in, unless charges were imminent and they didn't want him taking off. Maybe they already have a warrant and just won't say while he's off the grid.
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:47 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
They can start with auto theft, since he took her van.

Oops, ninja'd
That wouldn’t float over here in the UK, are you sure it would in the USA?
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:51 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He can be held for a short time, maybe even longer than 48 hours, but he doesn't have to answer questions or provide evidence. And eventually they have to let him go.
Yeah, is that not what I said?
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:51 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That wouldn’t float over here in the UK, are you sure it would in the USA?
He took another person's vehicle thousands of miles away from her. Why wouldn't it be a valid charge, in the U.S. or the UK?
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:55 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
They could hold him, but questioning would have to end once he invoked his right to silence and his desire for an attorney.
Again, I really don't believe this is at all true.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Since he already has done both, seems like a moot point. His lawyer would almost certainly advise him to remain silent. Seems extremely unlikely to me that someone who has already decided to keep their mouth shut, only to be encouraged by their criminal defense lawyer to do so, would have change of heart.
He doesn't have to speak, but he would have to sit there while he listened to the entirety of the evidence the police\FBI have so far. I doubt he'd confess, but hearing everything they have might strike some fear in him.

People don't listen to their defense attorney's all of the time.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I can't think of what purpose it would serve to bring him in, unless charges were imminent and they didn't want him taking off. Maybe they already have a warrant and just won't say while he's off the grid.
See his reactions to what they say. Body language is an extremely powerful thing at times.
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Old 21st September 2021, 10:57 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post


See his reactions to what they say. Body language is an extremely powerful thing at times.
I'm sure the police swear up and down that such pseudoscience is valid, but this is how false convictions are born.

I'm hopeful they find some physical evidence that proves a murder, because it's going to be an absolute field day of made up cop science if there's nothing concrete to prove this guy did the deed.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:05 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Again, I really don't believe this is at all true.

He doesn't have to speak, but he would have to sit there while he listened to the entirety of the evidence the police\FBI have so far. I doubt he'd confess, but hearing everything they have might strike some fear in him.

People don't listen to their defense attorney's all of the time.

See his reactions to what they say. Body language is an extremely powerful thing at times.
Now that's out of the movies. When a defendant says "lawyer," the interrogation must stop. That doesn't mean the cops can't use all kinds of tactics to prevent that -- "We want to hear your side," "We want to help you," "We know it was an accident, we just need to clear up the details" -- but they can't keep haranguing him or threatening him after he asks for a lawyer.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:07 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That wouldn’t float over here in the UK, are you sure it would in the USA?
It'd work if they wanted to hold him over the short term.

Also he did take her van. Are you sure this wouldn't be indictable in the UK?
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:10 AM   #91
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I'm confused as to how any person has every been arrested anywhere at this point.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:15 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm confused as to how any person has every been arrested anywhere at this point.
Really? In most cases the authorities don't rely on the defendant to provide evidence.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:22 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Really? In most cases the authorities don't rely on the defendant to provide evidence.
No but I'm fairly certain they, ya know, talk to them at some point prior to the "We have an airtight case and are ready to arrest" stage.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:24 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No but I'm fairly certain they, ya know, talk to them at some point prior to the "We have an airtight case and are ready to arrest" stage.
It's easier when people run their mouths and build the cases against themselves, and that is a shockingly common occurrence, but it is actually possible for cops to make a criminal case without the cooperation of the accused.

Physical evidence that the death was unnatural would be a good first step. An autopsy that concluded this is a murder victim would probably be more than enough to secure an arrest warrant.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Now that's out of the movies. When a defendant says "lawyer," the interrogation must stop. That doesn't mean the cops can't use all kinds of tactics to prevent that -- "We want to hear your side," "We want to help you," "We know it was an accident, we just need to clear up the details" -- but they can't keep haranguing him or threatening him after he asks for a lawyer.
So if he says "lawyer", and the cops bring in his lawyer, they no longer get to say any words to him at all ever? They can't hold him, they can't state the evidence they have, none of that? The guy just says "lawyer" and then nothing else ever happens, ever unless there's an airtight case?

**** I'm with Joe, how the hell does anything get done in the cop world? Also, I have a complaint to file because my defense attorney and I sat and listened to the cops for awhile. Then they took me back into holding. I got ******* hosed and lawyer was with me! Time for me to file some lawsuits.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't really get the idea that him lawyering up or hiding from this media frenzy is proof of guilt.
Isn't he also hiding from the police? That's a problem.

Last I heard he was on the run and potentially suicidal. Has that changed (or was it wrong)?
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:37 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Isn't he also hiding from the police? That's a problem.
Apparently that's not actually a problem, from what I'm understanding. Unless there's an actual arrest warrant he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he'll never get in trouble because of lawyers.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Last I heard he was on the run and potentially suicidal. Has that changed (or was it wrong)?
I know, if he's provably suicidal, I think they can hold him, but to be honest, I am learning that I seriously know absolutely nothing at all about how our legal system works. At this point I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they'd give him a gun, a stretch of rope, and a ride to the forest.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:37 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
See his reactions to what they say. Body language is an extremely powerful thing at times.
Don't go Mehrabian Fallacy on us, please?

Body language (whatever is actually meant by this term) is not reliable.

Disclaimer - why, yes, I did interview folk for a living for a decade or 3, but most of them were mad or something, except for when they weren't.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Don't go Mehrabian Fallacy on us, please?

Body language (whatever is actually meant by this term) is not reliable.

Disclaimer - why, yes, I did interview folk for a living for a decade or 3, but most of them were mad or something, except for when they weren't.
Jesus Christ you guys, I wasn't saying that his body language was going to be the evidence they used to put him away; however, talking to him and seeing reactions is telling.

Have you guys seriously never had a conversation with other people? The way they react doesn't inform you? No, of course it's not usable in court. Neither are lie detectors, but to say nothing would be learned from the actions of a suspect during an interview.

Actually, pretend I didn't say anything lol. Apparently it's a North Dakota thing.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:45 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Apparently that's not actually a problem, from what I'm understanding. Unless there's an actual arrest warrant he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he'll never get in trouble because of lawyers.


Do you have a problem that a citizen is free until the cops have sufficient evidence to present to a judge?
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:46 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you have a problem that a citizen is free until the cops have sufficient evidence to present to a judge?
No, Bob. I don't. Thanks for asking.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:47 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, Bob. I don't. Thanks for asking.
You said it was because of lawyers, but I think it is the bill of rights.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:48 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Apparently that's not actually a problem, from what I'm understanding. Unless there's an actual arrest warrant he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he'll never get in trouble because of lawyers.
I wasn't suggesting it was a legal problem. I was suggesting it's a reason to conclude that he is demonstrating guilty behavior. I was responding to what I quoted from SuburbanTurkey. He's evading the cops right after something very suspicious happened to his girlfriend/fiancé. That's unusual and suspicious.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I know, if he's provably suicidal, I think they can hold him, but to be honest, I am learning that I seriously know absolutely nothing at all about how our legal system works. At this point I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they'd give him a gun, a stretch of rope, and a ride to the forest.
I wasn't suggesting holding him due to being suicidal actually. Arresting him wasn't actually on my mind at the time I wrote that, but it would seem to me they now have plenty of reason to arrest him or, at the least, ask him to remain easily available to the cops.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:49 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
They can start with auto theft, since he took her van.
She never reported the van stolen. As for talking with the police, why couldn't he just give them a written statement, supervised by his lawyer?
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:52 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I wasn't suggesting holding him due to being suicidal actually. Arresting him wasn't actually on my mind at the time I wrote that, but it would seem to me they now have plenty of reason to arrest him or, at the least, ask him to remain easily available to the cops.
My fault, the "on the run" before it thought you were implying to get him to stop.

I would imagine at this point if they get their hands on him, he'll be in jail. Even if they him on something miniscule they can hold him.

This case has shown the differences in laws from state to state. In North Dakota if someone had called the cops because of a domestic assault (which happened to them in Wyoming? I'm gapping now) someone would have to be arrested. One of the two would be going to jail over it, and it sounds like a witness saw him hit her twice. I'm kind of shocked nothing happened then.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So if he says "lawyer", and the cops bring in his lawyer, they no longer get to say any words to him at all ever? They can't hold him, they can't state the evidence they have, none of that? The guy just says "lawyer" and then nothing else ever happens, ever unless there's an airtight case?

**** I'm with Joe, how the hell does anything get done in the cop world? Also, I have a complaint to file because my defense attorney and I sat and listened to the cops for awhile. Then they took me back into holding. I got ******* hosed and lawyer was with me! Time for me to file some lawsuits.
Some of the worst examples of police abuse are the result of cops intimidating unsophisticated subjects into making false confessions. The cops can certainly continue to interrogate a defendant after he asks for a lawyer -- but only with the lawyer present.

And why shouldn't the cops be expected to present an airtight case? The standard for conviction is supposed to be "beyond reasonable doubt."
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:54 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
She never reported the van stolen. As for talking with the police, why couldn't he just give them a written statement, supervised by his lawyer?
I'm wondering if the fact she's turned up dead would play a role in that. It's hard to call in a stolen vehicle under those circumstances. I'd have to think there's a charge for taking a vehicle that's not yours, even if it's not reported as stolen.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:56 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
She never reported the van stolen. As for talking with the police, why couldn't he just give them a written statement, supervised by his lawyer?
So you think you can get away with stealing a car if you kill the owner? The car doesn't belong to him; it's up to him to prove he was authorized to take it away from her.
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:57 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Some of the worst examples of police abuse are the result of cops intimidating unsophisticated subjects into making false confessions. The cops can certainly continue to interrogate a defendant after he asks for a lawyer -- but only with the lawyer present.
Again, I've never said he shouldn't be allowed to have a lawyer. I absolutely believe he should have a lawyer, probably a few if he can afford it.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And why shouldn't the cops be expected to present an airtight case? The standard for conviction is supposed to be "beyond reasonable doubt."
The cops collect evidence, not get convictions. The prosecutors should have an airtight case for trial. The cops shouldn't need an airtight case for arresting this man given what we know, even if not for murder but for another crime in order to hold him.

Circumstantial cases are built, tried, and acquire a conviction all of the time. So yes, beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn't mean it's airtight (though as I said, airtight would be preferable).
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:58 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
She never reported the van stolen. As for talking with the police, why couldn't he just give them a written statement, supervised by his lawyer?
He could, but just to clarify what's going on: Do we know if he even knows he has a lawyer? He's been missing right? And it's not clear his parents have been in contact with him. They obtained the lawyer I think.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm wondering if the fact she's turned up dead would play a role in that. It's hard to call in a stolen vehicle under those circumstances. I'd have to think there's a charge for taking a vehicle that's not yours, even if it's not reported as stolen.
Something doesn't have to be reported stolen to be stolen.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:02 PM   #112
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Okay I think I see the problem.

We're talking about an actual case involving actual humans involving actual pain and suffering that's happening in the real actual world.

Everyone who is writing a detached PolySci 101 think piece about some trolley problem about the hypothetically perfect way the police/public/suspects should interact in a frictionless vacuum over an infinite plane of uniform gravity, take it elsewhere.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He could, but just to clarify what's going on: Do we know if he even knows he has a lawyer? He's been missing right? And it's not clear his parents have been in contact with him. They obtained the lawyer I think.
Yeah, you're right. Only thing I am seeing is references to Steven Bertolino representing the family, and Steven, but it doesn't say if\when he actually talked to him or not.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:04 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He could, but just to clarify what's going on: Do we know if he even knows he has a lawyer? He's been missing right? And it's not clear his parents have been in contact with him. They obtained the lawyer I think.
Yes he has a lawyer, and the lawyer has made statements on his behalf.
https://www.newsweek.com/gabby-petit...e-know-1631150
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:06 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay I think I see the problem.

We're talking about an actual case involving actual humans involving actual pain and suffering that's happening in the real actual world.

Everyone who is writing a detached PolySci 101 think piece about some trolley problem about the hypothetically perfect way the police/public/suspects should interact in a frictionless vacuum over an infinite plane of uniform gravity, take it elsewhere.
There's nothing hypothetical about it. The police can't arrest someone without probable cause, or interrogate someone alone if he asks for a lawyer. The authorities have plenty of tools at their disposal.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:10 PM   #116
plague311
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Something doesn't have to be reported stolen to be stolen.
I'm not saying anything in this thread without a qualifier and substantial explanation again lol.

They've been driving cross country, so I assume at some point he had permission to drive it. I'm not sure if now that she's dead there's a different name for the crime or not.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:11 PM   #117
plague311
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There's nothing hypothetical about it. The police can't arrest someone without probable cause, or interrogate someone alone if he asks for a lawyer. The authorities have plenty of tools at their disposal.
Sure they can, and do. It's actually a huge problem with PoC in the US. They shouldn't though, you're absolutely right about that.

I just know how important being thorough is, and I just wanted to point this out.
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“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:13 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So you think you can get away with stealing a car if you kill the owner? The car doesn't belong to him; it's up to him to prove he was authorized to take it away from her.
According to The New York Times:

"Before Mr. Laundrie went missing, Mr. Taylor (North Port Police) said the police had no reason to arrest him after he returned to Florida in the van, which is registered to Ms. Petito and had not been reported stolen.

“The reality of that situation is that it was a common-use vehicle between the two of them,” Mr. Taylor said. The state law does not allow the police to arrest Mr. Laundrie any more than it allows for the arrest of a teenager found driving his or her parents’ car, he said."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/u...by-petito.html
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:14 PM   #119
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yes he has a lawyer, and the lawyer has made statements on his behalf.
https://www.newsweek.com/gabby-petit...e-know-1631150
Yeah, I got that. The not too important point that I was curious about though is whether Brian himself actually knows he has a lawyer.

Not important. The autopsy will likely remove a lot of the current confusion soon.
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Old 21st September 2021, 12:17 PM   #120
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So you think you can get away with stealing a car if you kill the owner? The car doesn't belong to him; it's up to him to prove he was authorized to take it away from her.
But they didn't know anyone had been killed at the time, and, to be really strict about it, it's not even certain now. And, no, people drive other peoples cars all the freaking time. You just have to have the papers that the police will use to make sure the car isn't reported stolen (and they don't even check that all the time).
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