IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:10 AM   #1
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 9,715
The Heat death of the Universe

This thread is to discuss all possible processes between now and then.
My idea is that the universe is bigger than the observable universe. It would be a fluke if otherwise.
I try to imagine the epic disintegration over, say, 100 trillion years.
I have on the bookshelf Paul Davies " the last 3 minutes."
Anyway, there are people on this forum who might be able to help ordinary mortals discuss this long term plan.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:29 AM   #2
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,150
Understanding the consequence of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics literally put me into a depression.

I've come around, because there are some things about entropy that no one has explained to me in a way I could understand, and because of the occasional discovery that suggests that the 2nd law isn't as untouchable as assumed, like current hype around Time Crystals.

To get on with the subject:

I remember a scientific article that calculated that random fluctuations in the quantum foam of space could be enough to power microscopic technologies indefinitely.
So unless we are heading for a Big Crunch, we might just exist on a very low level of activity forever.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 23rd September 2021 at 04:31 AM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:32 AM   #3
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,115
“We”???
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:37 AM   #4
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,150
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
“We”???
we, meaning complex entities capable of sentience.
I'm not a substrate chauvinist like some people...
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:47 AM   #5
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,593
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
we, meaning complex entities capable of sentience.
I'm not a substrate chauvinist like some people...
Why do you hate us simple entities capable of sentience?

😡
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 04:51 AM   #6
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,115
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
we, meaning complex entities capable of sentience.
I'm not a substrate chauvinist like some people...
I think imagining sentience in several trillion years time is pretty silly given that sentience has only been evident for a few hundreds of thousands of years at best.

Sentience is likely a minute blimp on the universe’s radar
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 05:26 AM   #7
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,304
Well, it's apparently about a Googol years away, so what's to worry about?

The death of our own sun and hence our home planet will come far sooner than that.

Maybe we'll have figured out a way to get out of this solar system by then and find a new home. Obviously this would require technology far more advanced than what is foreseeable today. And I doubt even then that we could take take billions of people along for the ride. It will have to be a small colony and the rest will have to live out the remainder of their lives on a dying planet.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 05:32 AM   #8
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,115
I’m far more worried about what happens this weekend
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 05:47 AM   #9
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,721
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This thread is to discuss all possible processes between now and then.

... snipped for relevance ...
Well, for starters, it is quite impossible to discuss all possible processes in just one thread in one discussion forum because there is such an incredibly vast number of all possible processes from now until the end of the universe.
__________________
I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency.

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 05:58 AM   #10
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,858
This reminds me of my late sister. A friend bought her a plant from the Cosmos family, but left it in the car for a couple of days in hot weather, so when she finally got to my sister's house it had died. When she apologised, my sister said, "That's OK, it's just the Second Law of Thermodynamics."

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 07:21 AM   #11
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,831
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Understanding the consequence of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics literally put me into a depression.
It is indeed a grim subject. The three laws of thermodynamics are:

1) You cannot win (energy is conserved)
2) You cannot break even (entropy increases)
3) You cannot get out of the game (you can't reach zero temperature)

The textbook "States of Matter" has the best opening lines of any textbook on any subject:

Originally Posted by David L. Goodstein
Ludwig Boltzmann, who spent much of his life studying statistical mechanics, died in 1906, by his own hand. Paul Ehrenfest, carrying on the work, died similarly in 1933. Now it is our turn to study statistical mechanics.

Perhaps it will be wise to approach the subject cautiously.
And for the uninitiated, statistical mechanics is basically thermodynamics.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So unless we are heading for a Big Crunch, we might just exist on a very low level of activity forever.
If you don't like the Big Crunch, how about the Big Rip?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 07:35 AM   #12
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,955
It's those minute blimps that worry me.

One every minute? The humanity, the humanity!
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 07:40 AM   #13
xterra
So far, so good...
 
xterra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded
Posts: 3,844
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
It's those minute blimps that worry me.
You should worry about the dirigibles, not the blimps.

By the way, it's getting kinda warm where I am.
__________________
Over we go....
xterra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 10:34 AM   #14
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,703
I was hoping this would be about 400 pairs of blue corduroy trousers.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 10:46 AM   #15
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 34,703
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you don't like the Big Crunch, how about the Big Rip?

Fortunately, that doesn’t appear to involve trousers either.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 11:06 AM   #16
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,044
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, it's apparently about a Googol years away, so what's to worry about?

The death of our own sun and hence our home planet will come far sooner than that.

Maybe we'll have figured out a way to get out of this solar system by then and find a new home. Obviously this would require technology far more advanced than what is foreseeable today. And I doubt even then that we could take take billions of people along for the ride. It will have to be a small colony and the rest will have to live out the remainder of their lives on a dying planet.
It is not necessary to move billions of people at once. Time is not lacking. A few people per year over a billion years will provide an adequate result.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 01:13 PM   #17
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,729
It could be full of naked singularities. That sounds kinda hot!
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 07:18 PM   #18
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,917
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It is not necessary to move billions of people at once. Time is not lacking. A few people per year over a billion years will provide an adequate result.

Do we need to move actual people? I read, probably here somewhere, about an idea to send the human genome(?) along with robots and incubators to other worlds.

AI bots would raise the first humans I think. Sorry if this is dumb, I'm no astrologer!
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 07:27 PM   #19
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,963
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is indeed a grim subject. The three laws of thermodynamics are:

1) You cannot win (energy is conserved)
2) You cannot break even (entropy increases)
3) You cannot get out of the game (you can't reach zero temperature)

The textbook "States of Matter" has the best opening lines of any textbook on any subject:



And for the uninitiated, statistical mechanics is basically thermodynamics.



If you don't like the Big Crunch, how about the Big Rip?
Get the new "Big Rip" at Taco Bell. Eat just one and you'll fart for a week!
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 08:09 PM   #20
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,923
I have this theory. The origin of the universe is a quantum fluctuation with a ridiculously low probability. Like, once in thousands of trillions of years. Yet, it occurs, and a universe is brought into being and starts to expand. Hundreds of trillions of years after that occurs, all matter and energy in the universe dissolves and dissipates, leaving nothing - not even something that can be called spacetime. Entropy is at maximum.

Then it happens again.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2021, 10:56 PM   #21
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,251
I was hoping the universe was eternal.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 01:04 AM   #22
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,304
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Do we need to move actual people? I read, probably here somewhere, about an idea to send the human genome(?) along with robots and incubators to other worlds.

AI bots would raise the first humans I think. Sorry if this is dumb, I'm no astrologer!
It seems like the only plausible way to me.

There's the generation ship idea, but it seems like more things could go wrong that way, plus all the people doomed to live out their lives on a spaceship.

Instead, send frozen embryos or zygotes and the robots to raise them into adults.

Would it actually work? I don't know, but the robots could be programmed to only restart the growing process by thawing them out if a suitable destination is found and all the prerequisites from settlement are met, and otherwise abort the mission or look for an alternative destination.

Honestly though, intersteller travel may be a nut we just cannot crack because of the enormous distances and the challenge of traveling through space for such a long time.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 01:07 AM   #23
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,304
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I was hoping the universe was eternal.
Nobody really knows for certain. It may yet turn out to be eternal, or cyclical.

Is the Big Bang a unique event or something that happens over and over again eventually? Who really knows for sure?

There's lots of things we just don't fully grok yet.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 01:40 AM   #24
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,333
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
My idea is that the universe is bigger than the observable universe. It would be a fluke if otherwise.
Not sure what the fluke argument is, but yes, the actual universe has to be a lot bigger.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Anyway, there are people on this forum who might be able to help ordinary mortals discuss this long term plan.
This kind of topic reminds me of Terry Pratchett's trolls, who counted like, "one, two, many, lots." It's like humans have a limit like that, past which everything stops even registering as really big or far in the future. In fact, past which it actually seems closer than before you crossed it.

Point in case, people start worrying about what do "we" do in 5 billion years when the Sun blows up, or better yet, when the heat death comes.

It's not even just that none of us we'll even be alive then, but we're barely 5000 years since the beginning of writing. That death of the sun is ONE MILLION times that. We're almost 500 years since the beginning of the scientific method. That death of the sun is TEN MILLION times that. Yet somehow people presume to think that whatever will be done by then, is something that can already be figured out right now.

Do that the same for when the heat death comes around?

It... doesn't seem very realistic, does it?
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 03:46 AM   #25
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,044
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure what the fluke argument is, but yes, the actual universe has to be a lot bigger.



This kind of topic reminds me of Terry Pratchett's trolls, who counted like, "one, two, many, lots." It's like humans have a limit like that, past which everything stops even registering as really big or far in the future. In fact, past which it actually seems closer than before you crossed it.

Point in case, people start worrying about what do "we" do in 5 billion years when the Sun blows up, or better yet, when the heat death comes.

It's not even just that none of us we'll even be alive then, but we're barely 5000 years since the beginning of writing. That death of the sun is ONE MILLION times that. We're almost 500 years since the beginning of the scientific method. That death of the sun is TEN MILLION times that. Yet somehow people presume to think that whatever will be done by then, is something that can already be figured out right now.

Do that the same for when the heat death comes around?

It... doesn't seem very realistic, does it?
Planning ahead and being prepared is never a bad thing.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:02 AM   #26
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,150
I'm actively waiting for an alien intelligence greater than our to save me.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:02 AM   #27
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,333
The point is that if you asked someone from 500 years ago how we'll deal with smallpox and locust swarms, he wouldn't have guessed "vaccines and spraying pesticides from an airplane". Yet people seem to have this odd idea that they can plan something that will happen in 5,000,000,000 years.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:09 AM   #28
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,044
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The point is that if you asked someone from 500 years ago how we'll deal with smallpox and locust swarms, he wouldn't have guessed "vaccines and spraying pesticides from an airplane". Yet people seem to have this odd idea that they can plan something that will happen in 5,000,000,000 years.
No, "people" do not. There is a distinct difference between *plan* and *speculate*.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:17 AM   #29
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,333
Well, I'm not going to stop you from speculating. I'm just saying, be aware that you're going to be even more off the mark than a 16'th century guy speculating about how we'll deal with smallpox. But if you're aware that you're just writing science fiction, go for it.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:24 AM   #30
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,304
We clearly have many much more immediate problems to solve, like global warming.

We need to make our civilization sustainable in the short-to-medium term. Once that's done, we will have plenty of time to come up with solutions for the longer-term problems.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 04:33 AM   #31
Steve
Penultimate Amazing
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 10,044
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The point is that if you asked someone from 500 years ago how we'll deal with smallpox and locust swarms, he wouldn't have guessed "vaccines and spraying pesticides from an airplane". Yet people seem to have this odd idea that they can plan something that will happen in 5,000,000,000 years.
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, I'm not going to stop you from speculating. I'm just saying, be aware that you're going to be even more off the mark than a 16'th century guy speculating about how we'll deal with smallpox. But if you're aware that you're just writing science fiction, go for it.
Never mind me. You said *people.....plan* with absolutely no evidence of any person actually making any plans.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2021, 07:36 PM   #32
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,963
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure what the fluke argument is, but yes, the actual universe has to be a lot bigger.



This kind of topic reminds me of Terry Pratchett's trolls, who counted like, "one, two, many, lots." It's like humans have a limit like that, past which everything stops even registering as really big or far in the future. In fact, past which it actually seems closer than before you crossed it.

Point in case, people start worrying about what do "we" do in 5 billion years when the Sun blows up, or better yet, when the heat death comes.

It's not even just that none of us we'll even be alive then, but we're barely 5000 years since the beginning of writing. That death of the sun is ONE MILLION times that. We're almost 500 years since the beginning of the scientific method. That death of the sun is TEN MILLION times that. Yet somehow people presume to think that whatever will be done by then, is something that can already be figured out right now.

Do that the same for when the heat death comes around?

It... doesn't seem very realistic, does it?
Considering that there's a strong probability that our species won't even be around in another hundred years or so, I think the death of the Sun is among the least of our worries.
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2021, 10:55 AM   #33
Steve001
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,768
A book to read is titled as I recall "The Five Ages of The Universe". Some vids you might enjoy.https://youtu.be/gEyXTQ9do-c

https://youtu.be/Qg4vb-KH5F4
Both of these excellent vids are from the YT channel PBS Spacetime
Steve001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2021, 08:19 PM   #34
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,378
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I have this theory. The origin of the universe is a quantum fluctuation with a ridiculously low probability. Like, once in thousands of trillions of years. Yet, it occurs, and a universe is brought into being and starts to expand. Hundreds of trillions of years after that occurs, all matter and energy in the universe dissolves and dissipates, leaving nothing - not even something that can be called spacetime. Entropy is at maximum.

Then it happens again.
The problem(?) with this is that you have to assume that TIME exists outside of the Universe.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2021, 08:59 PM   #35
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,600
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
The problem(?) with this is that you have to assume that TIME exists outside of the Universe.
If we are doing guesses, then I pick the universe is a black hole and this is what it's like to be inside one.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2021, 08:39 PM   #36
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,923
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
The problem(?) with this is that you have to assume that TIME exists outside of the Universe.
I admit, I haven't fully done the math on that. But with maximum entropy, time essentially stops.

And then it starts back up again with a new universe and a new spacetime.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2021, 08:42 PM   #37
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,923
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
This kind of topic reminds me of Terry Pratchett's trolls, who counted like, "one, two, many, lots." It's like humans have a limit like that, past which everything stops even registering as really big or far in the future. In fact, past which it actually seems closer than before you crossed it.

Point in case, people start worrying about what do "we" do in 5 billion years when the Sun blows up, or better yet, when the heat death comes.

It's not even just that none of us we'll even be alive then, but we're barely 5000 years since the beginning of writing. That death of the sun is ONE MILLION times that. We're almost 500 years since the beginning of the scientific method. That death of the sun is TEN MILLION times that. Yet somehow people presume to think that whatever will be done by then, is something that can already be figured out right now.

Do that the same for when the heat death comes around?

It... doesn't seem very realistic, does it?
It reminds me of the story of the King who said to his gardener "Tomorrow, I want you to plant these trees in my garden."

The gardener replied "But Your Majesty, these trees take a hundred years to grow to full maturity."

"Hmm," said the King. "In that case, plant them this afternoon."
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2021, 10:53 PM   #38
BowlOfRed
Graduate Poster
 
BowlOfRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,969
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Considering that there's a strong probability that our species won't even be around in another hundred years or so, I think the death of the Sun is among the least of our worries.
What are you thinking of here? Societal and population collapse, could be. Extinction? I can't think of anything that is "probable" that could do it in that time frame.
BowlOfRed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2021, 08:01 AM   #39
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 21,378
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I admit, I haven't fully done the math on that. But with maximum entropy, time essentially stops.

And then it starts back up again with a new universe and a new spacetime.
If you do do the math, there is probably a Nobel Prize in store for you.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2021, 10:20 AM   #40
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,253
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
... when the heat death comes.

When is that? I seem to remember something about 200,000,000 years. Or was it only 200,000?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.