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Old 29th September 2021, 11:43 AM   #161
ponderingturtle
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His attack on the bicyclists was wildly successful beyond all expectations. Why are we treating this as anything else?
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Old 29th September 2021, 11:47 AM   #162
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That kid is clearly No True Scotsman.
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Old 29th September 2021, 11:49 AM   #163
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It truly is odd that he wasn't arrested. If he had a couple beers in him he'd be in the slammer, but a sober person deliberately creating a dangerous situation and running down 6 people with their personal tank is apparently a grey area when it comes to criminal law.

It's ridiculous how deferential our society is to drivers.
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Old 29th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It truly is odd that he wasn't arrested. If he had a couple beers in him he'd be in the slammer, but a sober person deliberately creating a dangerous situation and running down 6 people with their personal tank is apparently a grey area when it comes to criminal law.

It's ridiculous how deferential our society is to drivers.
That right there is a discussion that would be nice to have.

Would he be free if instead of using a truck he was just randomly standing on the side of the road swinging a baseball bat at the cyclist to scare them and accidentally connected with a few of them?
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Old 29th September 2021, 11:59 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That right there is a discussion that would be nice to have.

Would he be free if instead of using a truck he was just randomly standing on the side of the road swinging a baseball bat at the cyclist to scare them and accidentally connected with a few of them?
Taking pot shots at them and accidentally hitting them would likely be a better example.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:00 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And by the same token, I have no reason to believe a 16 yr old is reviewing Republican budget proposals and tax incentive programs.
I think it is safe to say that 90% of the people wearing MAGA hats or sporting trump flags have no more understanding of such things than this kid.

Trumpism is not about budget proposals and tax incentive programs. It is a lifestyle, not a coherent political ideology.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:02 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Taking pot shots at them and accidentally hitting them would likely be a better example.
Yeah, but it’s Texas, so shooting at **** on a Sunday morning is protected religious expression.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:12 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The kid had to have been right dead on top of the 6 cyclists to hit them all, unless we are assuming some kind of sustained acceleration. Fishtailing, as I've heard. That alone to me is far more serious than the coal rolling.
Fishtailing is caused by oversteering which, barring conditions that weren't a factor here like snow on the road or an imbalanced trailer, happens when somebody overreacts to suddenly realizing they have drifted out of their lane - suddenly, because they were distracted. It is completely consistent with the situation of a person "rolling coal" on someone at the side of the road, having to drive partly on the shoulder and looking back to make sure they're having the desired affect on their intended target rather than paying attention to the road in front of them. A predictable result, one could even say.

But what the driver was doing to directly cause the accident IS one of the pertinent facts of the incident and has to be reported in the story, whether we prefer that to be the case or not.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:22 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That right there is a discussion that would be nice to have.

Would he be free if instead of using a truck he was just randomly standing on the side of the road swinging a baseball bat at the cyclist to scare them and accidentally connected with a few of them?
I don't see how this wouldn't qualify as aggravated assault. Willfully reckless conduct using a deadly weapon resulting in severe injury.

Quote:
Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
These conditions clearly met

and:

Quote:
Sec. 22.02. AGGRAVATED ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person commits assault as defined in Sec. 22.01 and the person:

(1) causes serious bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse; or

(2) uses or exhibits a deadly weapon during the commission of the assault.
Also met. Serious injury is obvious, and it's pretty easy to argue that the driver was using the truck as a weapon, if not to intentionally run them over, at least in an attempt to intimidate.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D...E.22.htm#22.01

ETA: Seems that most aggressive driving against pedestrians and bikers could be considered some form of assault, even if they don't actually cause injury:

Quote:
Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person

(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse
which could be aggravated assault if you take the view that threatening someone with a car is a deadly weapon (which I do).

Seems that this kid ought to be charged with 4 counts of aggravated assault, 2 counts of assault, and maybe more counts for the other cyclists not crashed into at the very least.

Then again, people using their cars as weapons is very much a political issue, and I'm not holding my breath that this will be taken as the serious crime that it obviously is.

ETA2: I know it's pretty common for reckless conduct in a car causing injury to not be charged this way, but this kind of malicious intent goes well beyond your ordinary carelessness. Even in the most generous interpretation, this kid meant to menace these people with his truck.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:39 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see how this wouldn't qualify as aggravated assault. Willfully reckless conduct using a deadly weapon resulting in severe injury.



These conditions clearly met

and:



Also met. Serious injury is obvious, and it's pretty easy to argue that the driver was using the truck as a weapon, if not to intentionally run them over, at least in an attempt to intimidate.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D...E.22.htm#22.01

ETA: Seems that most aggressive driving against pedestrians and bikers could be considered some form of assault, even if they don't actually cause injury:



which could be aggravated assault if you take the view that threatening someone with a car is a deadly weapon (which I do).

Seems that this kid ought to be charged with 4 counts of aggravated assault, 2 counts of assault, and maybe more counts for the other cyclists not crashed into at the very least.

Then again, people using their cars as weapons is very much a political issue, and I'm not holding my breath that this will be taken as the serious crime that it obviously is.
Agreed. That's where I was going earlier by pointing out how close he had to put his truck to the cyclists. How the hell is that not reckless endangerment on it's own?
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:41 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. That's where I was going earlier by pointing out how close he had to put his truck to the cyclists. How the hell is that not reckless endangerment on it's own?
The elephant in the room is that the vast majority of traffic accidents causing injury are the result of reckless conduct, but few are charged as such.

Seems pretty clear to me that this kind of conduct, knowingly and intentionally putting people in danger through aggressive driving, is a cut above the crash caused by less malicious types of recklessness.

ETA: Kinda gets to a tedious hair splitting differentiating between intentionally injuring someone and maliciously exposing someone to high risk and them getting injured as a result. If there were ever a case to bump a crash up to an aggravated assault charge, this seems like the time.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:59 PM   #172
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This news article was just updated, nothing really concrete but adds a few things into the mix, such as:

Quote:
Ferrell said the driver tried to do the same thing (roll coal) to the larger group of cyclists but instead accelerated right into them.
Sounds to me like he thought he put the truck in neutral, went to give it a rev and then pedal panicked into the group ahead....like a *******.

Quote:
"The kid on the scene was asking us if we thought he was going to jail," Ferrell told KTRK. "I said, 'Yeah. You messed up.' He was clearly sorry. Even in his mind, his initial reaction was he thought he was going to jail."
Him worried about going to jail shouldn't be shocking though. If he cared about human life he wouldn't have acted like a moron in the first place. After that, mommy and daddy showed up. Talked to the cops AND THEY LET HIM DRIVE THE ******* VEHICLE HOME. As in, didn't keep it for evidence or anything like that. Just let him take off.

Don't worry though, a tweet per the DA of Waller County:

Quote:
Thank you to everyone that has messaged regarding the Saturday morning collision between a pickup truck and bicyclists in the Waller area. Please know that this matter will be thoroughly reviewed and appropriate actions taken as soon as the investigation is completed and handed over to this office.
So there you have it.

I seriously doubt this vehicle was "fishtailing". An F350 doesn't have the burst of speed to make it fishtail when moving at 20-25+ mph. It wasn't a gravel road, and it was dry pavement. Please drop the fishtail thing, it just didn't happen.
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Old 29th September 2021, 01:55 PM   #173
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Old 29th September 2021, 02:22 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Sounds to me like he thought he put the truck in neutral, went to give it a rev and then pedal panicked into the group ahead....like a *******.
I was wondering if he was riding the brake. You know, one foot on the brake and one on the gas to really make the engine work.

But hard to balance the effort while moving. Not enough pressure on the brake and off he goes....
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Old 29th September 2021, 02:34 PM   #175
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When I was a kid there used to be a bbq joint on the narrow strip of land between the tracks and Hempstead rd in Waller. We ate there a lot during hunting season. It appears to be gone, but Waller County Line looks to be serving up similar food. Just some field notes if any of you plan on heading down there to investigate.
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Old 29th September 2021, 03:51 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put yourself in the situation. The witnesses describe what the little punk had done previously with blowing fumes. None said "he put himself between our group and another that was 30 feet in front of us". It sounds like he was more intentionally riding up on the 6 victims than blowing coal on a pack behind him. A different, and more chargeable, douchebaggery.
He was riding up so that he could blow smoke at them too.
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Old 29th September 2021, 04:02 PM   #177
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There's no better witness to any event than Thermal's imagination.
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Old 30th September 2021, 12:32 PM   #178
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Quote:
DA hints at possible charges for Texas teen who ran over 6 cyclists

In the post, the DA's team wrote that the teen's act of "rolling coal" could constitute simple assault that could rise to a jailable offense. "Rolling coal" is a popular term among drivers who make often-illegal modifications to their vehicle's emissions regulator. These mods can generate thick, black exhaust clouds that are often used to harass pedestrians, motorists and others on the road. When the driver hits the gas, the tailpipe blows the gathered exhaust on a person or group.

...


Mathis, in an interview Wednesday with the ABC13 reporter, also said there could be aggravated assault with a deadly weapon charges brought against the teenager, with the pickup itself being the deadly weapon. Whether or not the teenager will face charges will likely take some time. The grand jury in Waller County won't meet again until October or November, Campion reported.
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...e-16497039.php

Kinda sounds like the DA is gearing up to arrest this kid, but going to a grand jury makes me nervous. The grand jury proceedings are not public and it's a common way for DAs to launder responsibility for not charging someone in higher profile cases.

I don't really see why this case necessitates such a long "investigation" prior to arrest. Statements from witnesses at the scene, in addition to the obvious serious injury caused, is probable cause for an aggravated assault arrest
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Old 30th September 2021, 01:03 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...e-16497039.php

Kinda sounds like the DA is gearing up to arrest this kid, but going to a grand jury makes me nervous. The grand jury proceedings are not public and it's a common way for DAs to launder responsibility for not charging someone in higher profile cases.

I don't really see why this case necessitates such a long "investigation" prior to arrest. Statements from witnesses at the scene, in addition to the obvious serious injury caused, is probable cause for an aggravated assault arrest
Hopefully, the prosecutors are quadruple checking to charge him with something that sticks, rather than tossing up quick charges that get weaseled around.
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Old 30th September 2021, 02:04 PM   #180
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Does anyone think we might see the affluenza defense?

Ranb
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Old 30th September 2021, 02:15 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does anyone think we might see the affluenza defense?

Ranb
It was posted upthread that police allowed him to drive home after a chat with mommy and daddy. I was wondering if they are perhaps 'influential' in the community, or at least with the PD.
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Old 30th September 2021, 03:25 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It was posted upthread that police allowed him to drive home after a chat with mommy and daddy. I was wondering if they are perhaps 'influential' in the community, or at least with the PD.
I wonder if this is correct. After a traumatic event like this he should not have been allowed to drive home. Perhaps he was driven home?

I would have thought the truck should have been taken by the police to be examined as evidence. One would want to check if the truck was fit ' legal to drive. Brakes, tyres, steering should be checked.

The guy is clearly in need of tongue lashing by Greta. Driving a diesel pick up! He should be hung for environmentalcide and future genocide by global warming. Let alone the horrifying thought that he might have deliberately fixed the exhaust system to make it more polluting. We know particulates from diesel are major contributors to lung ill-health.
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Old 30th September 2021, 03:42 PM   #183
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I would have thought at the very least even if they allowed the truck to return home (maybe it's dad's work truck or something), they'd have made sure the kid didn't drive it. I mean, the best spin on this event is that he's incompetent and insufficiently mature to be driving an oversized diesel truck if anything at all, and the worst includes the possibility that he might meet some cyclists on the way home and decide that practice makes perfect.
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Old 30th September 2021, 05:36 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Does anyone think we might see the affluenza defense?
Possible. I don't imagine parents willing to let a 16-year-old brand new driver behind the wheel of their F350 are living on the ragged edge.
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Old 30th September 2021, 06:09 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Possible. I don't imagine parents willing to let a 16-year-old brand new driver behind the wheel of their F350 are living on the ragged edge.
Or maybe MAGA daddy was actually driving but figured his buddies in the police would go easy on Junior.
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Old 1st October 2021, 07:46 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I wonder if this is correct. After a traumatic event like this he should not have been allowed to drive home. Perhaps he was driven home?

I would have thought the truck should have been taken by the police to be examined as evidence. One would want to check if the truck was fit ' legal to drive. Brakes, tyres, steering should be checked.

The guy is clearly in need of tongue lashing by Greta. Driving a diesel pick up! He should be hung for environmentalcide and future genocide by global warming. Let alone the horrifying thought that he might have deliberately fixed the exhaust system to make it more polluting. We know particulates from diesel are major contributors to lung ill-health.
Diesels are needed for some heavy duty work. In my beloved New Jersey USA, we have private people collecting waste kitchen oils, who filter it out and create biodiesel fuel. Not that this kid's dad's truck is likely to be using them.
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:07 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Diesels are needed for some heavy duty work. In my beloved New Jersey USA, we have private people collecting waste kitchen oils, who filter it out and create biodiesel fuel. Not that this kid's dad's truck is likely to be using them.
Yes, diesel trucks are pretty necessary for heavy towing and the like, and it would be a mistake to ban them all. Of course this does not include allowing a 16 year old yahoo to drive around in one either.

Around here one often sees 3/4 and full ton diesel pickups with trailer loads that are surprisingly large - like a 20 footer filled with cows. Used right, given the alternatives, they're probably the most responsible choice. But of course that does not include allowing a 16 year old yahoo to drive around in an empty one, even if it's running biodiesel and makes the driver behind wonder why he suddenly craves a side of fries.
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Old 1st October 2021, 11:22 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say here.

I very much doubt there was much time that elapsed between a driver engaging in knowingly reckless driving and when they lost control of the vehicle and crashed.

The whole point of "rolling coal" is to pass dangerously close to be obnoxious while revving the engine. A minor error in this risky maneuver could easily account for this crash, assuming it was not intentional. This could have gone from hot-dogging like an ******* to a crash much faster than the driver had time to react to.
Freedom of speech. He wants to express his love of CO2 to everyone, especially those who don't agree with him.
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Old 7th October 2021, 09:23 PM   #189
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https://jalopnik.com/waller-county-a...lin-1847811178

Quote:
The special prosecutor, Warren Diepraam, is an “expert in prosecuting vehicular homicides” and has been recognized by the NHTSA for “innovation” in prosecution. That innovation seems to consistently result in harsher penalties for offenders:
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:04 AM   #190
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On that same note, per this source a few things are being looked in to as well.

It looks like the injuries were fairly bad:

Quote:
The injuries ranging from traumatic brain and spinal injuries to broken bones.
This dumb **** ruined lives with his little stunt.

Looks like Diepraam is going after 2nd-degree felonies, where each one carries anything from probation to 20 years in prison. More information:

Originally Posted by Diepraam
Essentially what we’ve heard is there were two other groups of bicyclists that he aggressively passed, pulled in front of and engaged in the exact same conduct.
Looks like the kid was really making an afternoon of it. Diepraam is going to use a group of people to recreate the crime scene as well. Looks like Diepraam is also going to try and get put him in court as an adult. Which I hope they do. I hope this kid suffers severe, severe consequences.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:19 AM   #191
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Looking at that truck and those bikes, I'd be ready to suggest that that kid was not just rolling coal, unless he was so flagrantly inattentive and stupid that he did everything wrong. Maybe he did not mean to quite hit the bikes, but this scene looks like more aggression than just blowing smoke. I think he was hoping for a panic and at least a very close call.

The F-150 that went through my workshop a few years ago, destroying much of the front wall and sending, among other things, a radial arm saw 12 or more feet across the room to land upside down, scattering tools and saw blades, including one that was embedded in an opposite wall, had comparable damage, and drove away.

When a car hit me on a bicycle, sent me literally flying through the air, to land comatose on the pavement with broken skull, shoulder and neck, neither the car nor the bike looked as bad as those shown. Granted it was just a glancing blow, but the car was going at a pretty good clip, and it certainly clipped my wings.

Whether it was just an accident or an outright assault, I think that kid needs to be a motorless cyclist for a long time before he gets behind another steering wheel.

There's an old common law principle that no dog can be called dangerous until he has bitten someone. After that, young or old, its status is changed. This kid has had his bite.
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:11 PM   #192
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While I agree that this moron should suffer serious consequences, I hate the idea of trying someone under 18 "as an adult." He's not an adult.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:02 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
While I agree that this moron should suffer serious consequences, I hate the idea of trying someone under 18 "as an adult." He's not an adult.
I partially agree. To me the context here is what makes trying him as an adult valid. While the act was childish, and petty. He didn't just make an individual mistake and it was over. He repeatedly did this to multiple groups of cyclists until he ended up permanently disabling, and causing brain damage, to 6+ bikers.

The severity and duration of the crime, to me, means he should be brought up on adult charges. Kids that act in the heat of the moment, etc. Sure, try them as kids. A sustained attack on multiple groups of people, nope. You crossed the line.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:29 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
While I agree that this moron should suffer serious consequences, I hate the idea of trying someone under 18 "as an adult." He's not an adult.
I agree, but this is pretty common in Texas.

If you’re black or poor.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:30 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
While I agree that this moron should suffer serious consequences, I hate the idea of trying someone under 18 "as an adult." He's not an adult.
16 years old, fresh license, hasn't yet had a close call to teach him how things can go wrong. NOT an adult. Not the action of an adult either.

He needs Life in Prison, suspended. But one more act of childness...
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Old 9th October 2021, 03:13 AM   #196
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Quote:
The attorneys for the cyclists hit by a truck in Waller County said a special prosecutor has been assigned to the case by the Waller County District Attorney.

The case garnered national attention after the teenage driver who allegedly hit the cyclists on Sept. 25, was let go without being charged or ticketed, even though witnesses said the teen had been “rolling coal” on the cyclists before the crash.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/lo...b-df9a7b1e7348

Not sure why such an open and close example of multiple aggravated assault requires a special prosecutor. This whole case stinks of special treatment for the driver.
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Old 9th October 2021, 05:38 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.khou.com/article/news/lo...b-df9a7b1e7348

Not sure why such an open and close example of multiple aggravated assault requires a special prosecutor. This whole case stinks of special treatment for the driver.
Because when it comes to cars hitting cyclists, the default is that it was always somehow the cyclists’ fault, somehow. Even if you intentionally rammed the cyclists in a rage it’s still their fault. Pretty much the only time drivers get persecuted for hitting cyclists is when they are also drunk at the time. Even then, well…
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Old 9th October 2021, 02:04 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.khou.com/article/news/lo...b-df9a7b1e7348

Not sure why such an open and close example of multiple aggravated assault requires a special prosecutor. This whole case stinks of special treatment for the driver.
IMO, the treatment/deference shown the teen at the scene smacks of parental influence and/or a sympathetic local PD. Seems someone decided to not let the case get swept under the rug.
It could go any of a number of ways, but it also could become very, very bad for this young jackhole if he becomes the poster child for putting an end to this behavior.
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Old 9th October 2021, 05:45 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
IMO, the treatment/deference shown the teen at the scene smacks of parental influence and/or a sympathetic local PD. Seems someone decided to not let the case get swept under the rug.
It could go any of a number of ways, but it also could become very, very bad for this young jackhole if he becomes the poster child for putting an end to this behavior.
It probably doesn't help that someone got a life sentence for double murder for running over cyclists in the same county in 2017.

Quote:
The charges stemmed from the March 25, 2017 incident, in which he drove his vehicle into a group of cyclists. Witnesses testified that Tome was driving towards several cyclists in a bike race in Waller County on Buller Road. Tome hit five innocent victims while purposely maneuvering his car towards them, according to a release.
https://abc13.com/texas-man-gets-lif...ling/10851617/

Driver aggression towards cyclists in Waller County is very much a live issue.
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Old 10th October 2021, 05:18 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
While I agree that this moron should suffer serious consequences, I hate the idea of trying someone under 18 "as an adult." He's not an adult.
Then he shouldn’t be allowed to drive two tons of machine on a public road.
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