IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 30th September 2021, 07:18 AM   #41
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 7,633
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
With the exception of an extremely sensitive "NoCAB" minority running cover for a couple gorilla cops that brutalized a deaf man.
These cops were clearly very EXTRA bad. So was the jail they had him in, apparently. I don't get how NO ONE was able to figure it out. You almost have to wonder if some did but just didn't care. The story is insane.

All cops may not be bad, but it is becoming clearer to me every year that very large numbers of scummy, messed-up people are drawn to the profession, and most departments aren't doing nearly enough (if anything) to weed these types out or break them of their ways. The result is a broken system wherein people cannot trust police. Schroedinger's Bad Cop, if you will.

I don't even see it as truly a political issue, though it's been heavily politicized like everything has. It should be viewed as everybody's problem.
__________________
Get these tribbles off the bridge

Last edited by Butter!; 30th September 2021 at 07:21 AM. Reason: Blah, typos
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 07:24 AM   #42
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,695
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
These cops were clearly very EXTRA bad. So was the jail they had him in, apparently. I don't get how NO ONE was able to figure it out. You almost have to wonder if some did but just didn't care. The story is insane.

All cops may not be bad, but it is becoming clearer to me every year that very large numbers of scummy, messed-up people are drawn to the profession, and most departments aren't doing nearly enough (if anything) to weed these types out or break them of their ways. The result is a broken system wherein people cannot trust police. Schroedinger's Bad Cop, if you will.

I don't even see it as truly a political issue, though it's been heavily politicized like everything has. It should be viewed as everybody's problem.
It's a political issue because, while nobody likes being on the receiving end of out of control cops, the problem of American policing is not one that impacts the entire population equally.

Conservatives don't mind having to walk on eggshells around bully cops because they know that poor/non-white/urban communities are getting it way worse.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 07:28 AM   #43
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
These cops were clearly very EXTRA bad. So was the jail they had him in, apparently.
Yes, it is known as the "Jail without pen and paper". At least amongst the deaf community, I heard.
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 07:50 AM   #44
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
The police report says that when Mistic got out of the car, he moved towards the cops quickly, not towards the laundromat. But that could be easily CYA on the cops part.

The police statement goes on to point out that Mistic broke one of the officer's legs in the scuffle. Color me cynical, but might that account for his poor treatment? Cops generally don't like that. Prisoners who **** up cops tend to have a less than hospitable stay.

Aside: I have an adult buddy who lost his hearing and functionally his speech as a child. He is amazingly expressive and can communicate whatever he wants to with crystal clarity, even adjusting for a formal situation or being "among the guys".

Eta: ok, Holup. CBS giving more details:

The aggressive officer who dropped Mistic was fired for the unrelated violent arrest of a 75 yr old man. He seems nice.

The suit alleges this totally-not-psycho cop...broke his own leg during the confrontation with Mistic. Possible, I guess. The PD statement just says it was broken.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brady-m...rrest-lawsuit/
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 30th September 2021 at 08:13 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 08:12 AM   #45
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The police report says that when Mistic got out of the car, he moved towards the cops quickly, not towards the laundromat. But that could be easily CYA on the cops part.

The police statement goes on to point out that Mistic broke one of the officer's legs in the scuffle. Color me cynical, but might that account for his poor treatment? Cops generally don't like that. Prisoners who **** up cops tend to have a less than hospitable stay.

Aside: I have an adult buddy who lost his hearing and functionally his speech as a child. He is amazingly expressive and can communicate whatever he wants to with crystal clarity, even adjusting for a formal situation or being "among the guys".
The guy himself has said that he has had other experiences with cops that were completely uneventful. They gave him a chance to communicate, and they understood him. These particular cops apparently jumped on him immediately for getting out of his car. And one of these cops was fired and prosecuted for assaulting somebody else. I don't think they deserve too much benefit of the doubt here.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 08:27 AM   #46
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The guy himself has said that he has had other experiences with cops that were completely uneventful. They gave him a chance to communicate, and they understood him. These particular cops apparently jumped on him immediately for getting out of his car. And one of these cops was fired and prosecuted for assaulting somebody else. I don't think they deserve too much benefit of the doubt here.
See my eta that I was typing as you posted.

It wasn't just these two cops, though. I mean, four months in the pokey? An awful lot of people were cooperating here. And the CBS vid shows Mistic being interviewed in the hospital with an ASL interpreter. The vid comes from another cop's body cam. The 5-0 knew he was deaf, no question. Also, the charges against Mistic were not actually dropped cold; Mistic had to agree to take a class in anger management and how to not get arrested.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 08:40 AM   #47
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Mistic had to agree to take a class in anger management and how to not get arrested.
#angrydeafmf
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 10:32 AM   #48
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See my eta that I was typing as you posted.

It wasn't just these two cops, though. I mean, four months in the pokey? An awful lot of people were cooperating here. And the CBS vid shows Mistic being interviewed in the hospital with an ASL interpreter. The vid comes from another cop's body cam. The 5-0 knew he was deaf, no question. Also, the charges against Mistic were not actually dropped cold; Mistic had to agree to take a class in anger management and how to not get arrested.

They knew he was deaf after they arrested him, not before. And I would imagine that once he was in a small-town jail for assaulting a local cop, nobody wanted to do much for him. There also doesn't seem to be much information about his personal situation: Did he have money for bail, or family who tried to bail him out? Did somebody contact a lawyer for him? Did the jail provide an interpreter for him to make phone calls? The lawsuit says it didn't. That interpreter we see in the video was very likely provided by the hospital, which would be likely to have someone on staff, not the cops or the jail.
Quote:
Mistic's lawyer says he spent four months in jail on the charges, according to the suit. He was not given an interpreter or any reasonable way to communicate while in jail – despite requesting assistance multiple times – kept him from access to counsel and the ability to bail out of jail, Mistic's lawyer says.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brady-m...rrest-lawsuit/

If that's true it sure sounds like abuse bordering on the criminal.

Last edited by Bob001; 30th September 2021 at 10:34 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 10:58 AM   #49
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They knew he was deaf after they arrested him, not before. And I would imagine that once he was in a small-town jail for assaulting a local cop, nobody wanted to do much for him. There also doesn't seem to be much information about his personal situation: Did he have money for bail, or family who tried to bail him out? Did somebody contact a lawyer for him? Did the jail provide an interpreter for him to make phone calls? The lawsuit says it didn't. That interpreter we see in the video was very likely provided by the hospital, which would be likely to have someone on staff, not the cops or the jail.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brady-m...rrest-lawsuit/

If that's true it sure sounds like abuse bordering on the criminal.
Agreed. Im seeing it in two parts: the arrest, then the incarceration. Each has their own actors doing very wrong things.

At the arrest/beating/tasing/bone breaking, may be the cops genuinely didn't figure it out, or thought he was faking or whatever.

But after the hospital, a different set of police/judges/correction officers must have known, yet continued to withhold services.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 01:54 PM   #50
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,818
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Deaf man spends four months in jail for not responding to cops' commands.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...police-arrest/
How on earth did they even Mirandize him or process him into the system without grasping the problem with the entire situation?

This is gross negligence.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 02:05 PM   #51
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 29,660
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How on earth did they even Mirandize him or process him into the system without grasping the problem with the entire situation?

This is gross negligence.
You know, that part had never occurred to me. How indeed?
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 02:13 PM   #52
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How on earth did they even Mirandize him or process him into the system without grasping the problem with the entire situation?

This is gross negligence.
Since Mistic went to the hospital having been tased and all, and one of the cops had a broken leg, I'm guessing it was an emergency trip to the body shop first, where another cop was present while hospital personel translated to ASL. I'd bet that's where the formal processing began, and the cop there knew it (body can video on CBS link above).
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th September 2021, 09:05 PM   #53
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,914
Cop breaks his leg because he fell over while twisted up in all the bodies trying to mess this guy up.

That's my guess. My cousin broke his leg because his leg was stuck in a bed frame and he fell down.

How could someone intentionally break another person's leg in such an incident? I'd love to see video of that. What did he do get him in a knee bar while the other cops looked on? Give me a break.

The cops are full of crap about everything else here so I feel pretty good with it being the cops fault.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st October 2021, 01:25 AM   #54
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,042
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Cop breaks his leg because he fell over while twisted up in all the bodies trying to mess this guy up.

That's my guess. My cousin broke his leg because his leg was stuck in a bed frame and he fell down.

How could someone intentionally break another person's leg in such an incident? I'd love to see video of that. What did he do get him in a knee bar while the other cops looked on? Give me a break.

The cops are full of crap about everything else here so I feel pretty good with it being the cops fault.
Which leg?
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st October 2021, 04:16 AM   #55
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 36,718
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Oh look, there goes a pig flying!

I thought this guy's ableism only applied to mental illness or female issues, but apparently he likes to **** on physical disabilities too. So... progress?

Btw, my boyfriend is also deaf in one ear (due to a tumor). He used to be a pilot, and losing his hearing ruined that career path for him. He still struggles a lot. It's not the same as your situation, smartcooky, but his journey has caused me to learn a great deal about hearing loss and all the different levels of complication it can bring.
Vestibular Schwannoma?

Popular UK comedian and presenter Vic Reeves has the same thing. He's deaf in one ear.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 05:11 AM   #56
TofuFighter
Master Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,757
Youtube link of bodycam footage

I can't hear the audio on the pc I'm using at the moment. Comments suggest that Mistic did say on a few occasions that he is deaf, but trusting youtube comments is usually inadvisable.

I tried finding the actual police report that was referenced in most of the articles about the incident.
__________________
The "illusion of truth" effect: “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”
TofuFighter is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 06:11 AM   #57
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Youtube link of bodycam footage

I can't hear the audio on the pc I'm using at the moment. Comments suggest that Mistic did say on a few occasions that he is deaf, but trusting youtube comments is usually inadvisable.
In the first half minute, two things jump out. Mistic claims the police first turn on their flashing lights after he entered the laundromat. We see this is a lie. From the beginning of the bodycam footage, the lights are on and outside the car are passing buildings and streetlights. The flashing lights were on the whole time and it was pitch black outside. I don't care how deaf you are, those lights are blinding at night. Mistic knew.

Second, Mistic claims he didn't notice the patrol car and headed towards the laundromat, his destination. We see this is a lie. As soon as the patrol car stops, he heads towards it, as the police claimed. He is literally at the cruisers driver side window when the officers get out.

Quote:
I tried finding the actual police report that was referenced in most of the articles about the incident.
It's linked in the OP.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:15 AM   #58
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the first half minute, two things jump out. Mistic claims the police first turn on their flashing lights after he entered the laundromat. We see this is a lie. From the beginning of the bodycam footage, the lights are on and outside the car are passing buildings and streetlights. The flashing lights were on the whole time and it was pitch black outside. I don't care how deaf you are, those lights are blinding at night. Mistic knew.

Second, Mistic claims he didn't notice the patrol car and headed towards the laundromat, his destination. We see this is a lie. As soon as the patrol car stops, he heads towards it, as the police claimed. He is literally at the cruisers driver side window when the officers get out.
.....

He never claimed he entered the laundromat. His claim is that he parked his car in the laundromat parking lot -- as opposed to pulling over for a traffic stop -- and the police pulled in behind or near him. He never claimed he didn't see any lights; he claimed that he didn't know the cops were after him. He never claimed he didn't walk toward the car; he says he did to see what the trouble was.
Quote:
The suit, filed this month in U.S. District Court, says the incident began just after 7:30 p.m. Mistic was alleged to have run a stop sign before he pulled into the parking lot of a laundromat. Unaware that police had followed him into the parking lot, Mistic got out of his vehicle and began walking toward the laundromat, according to the lawsuit.

"As Mr. Mistic exited his car and walked past a dumpster in between his vehicle and the police vehicle, toward the laundry door, he was blinded by police vehicle lights and/or a spotlight shone by the officers," the suit says. "He had no idea what was happening, what the police were doing, or if the officers' presence had anything to do with him."

Mistic stopped walking and used his hands in an attempt to communicate with the officers, the lawsuit says. Mistic uses American Sign Language to communicate, is unable to read lips and can vocalize only a few words, according to the suit. He usually writes messages on a piece of paper to communicate with people who do not know sign language, it says.

The lawsuit claims that without any "warning or attempt to communicate," Hanning grabbed Mistic by the sweatshirt and threw him on the ground, causing Mistic's head to hit the concrete.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ouldn-n1280272

What should be most relevant from the video -- and apparently isn't to you -- is that as he walked toward the police, they started screaming "Get back in the car! Who do you think you are!," and within about 10 seconds (watch the clock) they were out of their car beating him. You can even hear the male cop calling for backup and saying "We're in a fight!" (That was likely the cop who was later fired and prosecuted for assaulting a 75-year old man.) Then they tase him multiple times for failing to obey their command to put his hands behind his back -- which of course he couldn't hear.

Gee, you think maybe the cops could have taken a few more seconds to find out why somebody was walking toward them flapping his arms? Hell, maybe the guy needed help. Is walking toward a cop car a crime now? Of course, he can count his blessings that they didn't just shoot him on the spot; that's happened, too.

Are you really defending the cops here?

Last edited by Bob001; 4th October 2021 at 08:17 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #59
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Listening to the bodycam video, Mistic says quite clearly at abt 1:55 "I'm deaf". The female officer asks "you're deaf?" and he answers "Yeah". She then speaks very clearly to him and repeats things with careful enunciation, and is seen using hand signals for him. She also says to Mistic "you can't run up and hit us like that". The cops 100% knew he was deaf on the scene.

Broken leg cop is heard calmly talking to his Chief (on radio? Cel?), saying "it's my right ankle", and later "I might have broken it", and later "no worries".
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #60
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Listening to the bodycam video, Mistic says quite clearly at abt 1:55 "I'm deaf". The female officer asks "you're deaf?" and he answers "Yeah". She then speaks very clearly to him and repeats things with careful enunciation, and is seen using hand signals for him. She also says to Mistic "you can't run up and hit us like that". The cops 100% knew he was deaf on the scene. Broken leg cop is heard calmly talking to his Chief (on radio? Cel?), saying "it's my right ankle", and later "I might have broken it", and later "no worries".
They figured out he was deaf after they jumped on him, beat him up and tased him. Great work! And how is enunciating clearly going to help someone who is totally deaf? And he didn't actually run up and hit them, did he? (It sounds to me more like "You can't run up on us like that.") Once again, the only (perceived) crime here is "contempt of cop."

And none of this explains why he was locked up for four months without being able to make bail or call a lawyer.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #61
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He never claimed he entered the laundromat. His claim is that he parked his car in the laundromat parking lot -- as opposed to pulling over for a traffic stop -- and the police pulled in behind or near him. He never claimed he didn't see any lights; he claimed that he didn't know the cops were after him. He never claimed he didn't walk toward the car; he says he did to see what the trouble was.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ouldn-n1280272

What should be most relevant from the video -- and apparently isn't to you -- is that as he walked toward the police, they started screaming "Get back in the car! Who do you think you are!," and within about 10 seconds (watch the clock) they were out of their car beating him. You can even hear the male cop calling for backup and saying "We're in a fight!" (That was likely the cop who was later fired and prosecuted for assaulting a 75-year old man.) Then they tase him multiple times for failing to obey their command to put his hands behind his back -- which of course he couldn't hear.

Gee, you think maybe the cops could have taken a few more seconds to find out why somebody was walking toward them flapping his arms? Hell, maybe the guy needed help. Is walking toward a cop car a crime now? Of course, he can count his blessings that they didn't just shoot him on the spot; that's happened, too.

Are you really defending the cops here?
No, I'm defending fact over assumption.

Your own quotes say he first walked towards the laundromat, and that the police turned on their lights afterwards. This is factually untrue. They followed him for quite a ways with lights a-blazing, and Mistic got out and went straight back to the cops driver side window, like literally inches from it.

Those of us who don't like getting shot do not do this. Perhaps Mistic was unaware that this was a dangerous thing to do? I'd like to know if he thinks that's what you are supposed to do when cops pull you over with lights on. I recall my drivers ed being pretty clear on what the law requires you to do during a traffic stop, and "get out and run up to their window" was not in those instructions.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:46 AM   #62
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They figured out he was deaf after they jumped on him, beat him up and tased him. Great work! And how is enunciating clearly going to help someone who is totally deaf?
Enunciating clearly is a big help in lip reading, and I think you damn well know that. Mistic answered verbal questions, so the cop would have every reason to think he could read lips. Come on, man.

Quote:
And he didn't actually run up and hit them, did he? (It sounds to me more like "You can't run up on us like that.") Once again, the only (perceived) crime here is "contempt of cop."
The video is dicey, but it does look like Mistic swung (maybe it's just reflexively throwing his arms up?).

ETA: you're right, I listened again, and she clearly says "you can't run up on us like that"

Quote:
And none of this explains why he was locked up for four months without being able to make bail or call a lawyer.
And I've already said I consider the on-scene and subsequent incarceration to be two separate things, both with their own bad acts. However, Mistic or at least his lawyer are not being entirely straight here, so I would need more than his word regarding the treatment he received when in lockup. A very serious credibility issue with Mistic's account starts with the very first described action: when did the cops turn their lights on?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 4th October 2021 at 08:53 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 08:49 AM   #63
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, I'm defending fact over assumption.

Your own quotes say he first walked towards the laundromat, and that the police turned on their lights afterwards. This is factually untrue. They followed him for quite a ways with lights a-blazing, and Mistic got out and went straight back to the cops driver side window, like literally inches from it.

Those of us who don't like getting shot do not do this. Perhaps Mistic was unaware that this was a dangerous thing to do? I'd like to know if he thinks that's what you are supposed to do when cops pull you over with lights on. I recall my drivers ed being pretty clear on what the law requires you to do during a traffic stop, and "get out and run up to their window" was not in those instructions.
His story is that he drove into the parking lot and parked, not that he knew he was being pulled over, and the police pulled in behind or next to him. Nothing in the cop video as they are rolling shows his car or how far ahead of them he was. And approaching their cop car is not justification for assaulting him. Why are heavily armed cops so scared of citizens all the time?

Last edited by Bob001; 4th October 2021 at 08:51 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 09:07 AM   #64
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
His story is that he drove into the parking lot and parked, not that he knew he was being pulled over, and the police pulled in behind or next to him. Nothing in the cop video as they are rolling shows his car or how far ahead of them he was. And approaching their cop car is not justification for assaulting him. Why are heavily armed cops so scared of citizens all the time?
Tbf, what difference does it make how well armed you are if you don't act immediately when someone takes a run at you? The cops were surely well armed with sidearm and long guns. I for one am happy to see that it was not their first go-to.

Are you saying the cops should just wait around and see what happens when someone takes a run at their car, which has the lights on? I don't much care for most cops, but a non-lethal response is still preferable IMO. We hear a lot of 'justified' self defense tales about citizens firing on an unarmed person taking a run at them. Actual police officers can't employ a lighter defense?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 09:20 AM   #65
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.....
Are you saying the cops should just wait around and see what happens when someone takes a run at their car, which has the lights on? I don't much care for most cops, but a non-lethal response is still preferable IMO. We hear a lot of 'justified' self defense tales about citizens firing on an unarmed person taking a run at them. Actual police officers can't employ a lighter defense?

You're giving yourself away when you say walking toward a police car in a parking lot is "taking a run at their car." No, he was walking toward their car with his hands in plain view. Yes, unless they see a weapon (and a hand in a pocket doesn't count) they have an absolute obligation to wait and see what's happening. That person approaching might be someone who needs help or wants to report a crime. They might even be the person who called them in the first place, like Justine Diamond.

As in many of these situations, I ask what would happen to a taxi driver or a store clerk or any non-badge-wearer who killed somebody just because he was scared? Prison, guaranteed. We endow cops with exceptional powers; we can require them to exercise exceptional judgment and restraint. And if they think that's too risky, let them look for other jobs. But in many cases, even Walmart wouldn't take them; Walmart doesn't allow its clerks to attack customers.

Last edited by Bob001; 4th October 2021 at 09:46 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 09:55 AM   #66
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,679
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As in many of these situations, I ask what would happen to a taxi driver or a store clerk or any non-badge-wearer who killed somebody just because he was scared? Prison, guaranteed. We endow cops with exceptional powers; we can require them to exercise exceptional judgment and restraint. And if they think that's too risky, let them look for other jobs. But in many cases, even Walmart wouldn't take them; Walmart doesn't allow its clerks to attack customers.

As a soldier in an active war zone, my RoE was more restrictive than this. It’s a bit ridiculous.

I couldn’t shoot at anyone because they walked up to me. I couldn’t even shoot at anyone carrying a gun. Only if we were attacked could we return fire.

If I’d shot someone because they reached inside their robe, even if we were patrolling due to reports of gunfire, I’d have been court martialed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 09:56 AM   #67
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,653
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
As a soldier in an active war zone, my RoE was more restrictive than this. It’s a bit ridiculous.

I couldn’t shoot at anyone because they walked up to me. I couldn’t even shoot at anyone carrying a gun. Only if we were attacked could we return fire.

If I’d shot someone because they reached inside their robe, even if we were patrolling due to reports of gunfire, I’d have been court martialed.
This has always been my response to the whole stupid "But if the police fear for their life (via their own standards) because the threat of violence hasn't been totally removed' excuses.

I'd have been popping people left and right in Afghanistan nonstop if "Okay but you can't prove they weren't a threat" was really a logical standard.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:07 AM   #68
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
As a soldier in an active war zone, my RoE was more restrictive than this. It’s a bit ridiculous.

I couldn’t shoot at anyone because they walked up to me. I couldn’t even shoot at anyone carrying a gun. Only if we were attacked could we return fire.

If I’d shot someone because they reached inside their robe, even if we were patrolling due to reports of gunfire, I’d have been court martialed.
....

This all goes back to the "warrior cop" mentality, a fairly recent development. There was a time when cops saw citizens as their neighbors. Now they see themselves as an occupying force surrounded by enemies.
https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-.../dp/1610394577
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...killology.html
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-industry.html
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:33 AM   #69
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're giving yourself away when you say walking toward a police car in a parking lot is "taking a run at their car." No, he was walking toward their car with his hands in plain view. Yes, unless they see a weapon (and a hand in a pocket doesn't count) they have an absolute obligation to wait and see what's happening.
How do you know this? What's your evidence? The patrol car rolled up with both officers still and relaxed. Both abruptly startled at the same instant and ran out. Both independently said Mistic was running at them. He appeared inches away from the drivers window in those couple seconds.

Are you assuming that the cops had some kind of act played out in advance? The trainee Summers (female cop) was being trained on how to set up deaf people? Cite your evidence that he was walking, and both cops were lying and had a choreographed act ready. Do tell.


Quote:
That person approaching might be someone who needs help or wants to report a crime. They might even be the person who called them in the first place, like Justine Diamond.
Now what the hell are you talking about? No one called them. They were pulling over a car that ran a stop. With their lights on, that I now understand deaf people can't see at night.

And for God's sake dude, they did not think he was distressed or 'the caller' because they followed him with lights on and saw him get out. He was the droid they were looking for. He was being pulled over. He jumped out and ran at their car. The cops didn't shoot him dead. I'll take the baby steps, TYVM.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:35 AM   #70
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
The cops tased a guy who ran up to their window during a stop. They did not shoot anyone. Can we dispense with the killer cop stuff for this thread at least?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:42 AM   #71
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
....
Now what the hell are you talking about? No one called them. They were pulling over a car that ran a stop. With their lights on, that I now understand deaf people can't see at night.
....
Back to the beginning. They didn't pull him over. They followed him into a parking lot, where he parked his car and got out. They screamed at him to get back in his car, which he failed to do for the obvious reasons. Then within literally seconds they jumped out and attacked him. I don't think it would have been unreasonable to talk to him -- or try to -- before they identified him as a deadly threat. When she screamed "Who do you think you are?" they told us exactly what they were thinking: "We've got the badge and the gun; we own you."

Walking toward a police car is not a crime and shouldn't be treated as one.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:43 AM   #72
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The cops tased a guy who ran up to their window during a stop. They did not shoot anyone. Can we dispense with the killer cop stuff for this thread at least?
They didn't kill anybody this time. But they treated him as an attacking enemy, completely without justification. That's the "warrior cop" mentality.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:55 AM   #73
Disbelief
Master Poster
 
Disbelief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,924
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The cops tased a guy who ran up to their window during a stop. They did not shoot anyone. Can we dispense with the killer cop stuff for this thread at least?
How do you know he ran up on them, it's just their say so. He approached the car when they were in a parking lot, and then you hear the cop asking, "Who do you think you are?" How about a US citizen who hasn't committed a crime? Not sure why you are excited that they didn't kill anyone, but surely they stomped all over his civil rights.
__________________
Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same?

Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman
Disbelief is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 11:27 AM   #74
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 14,679
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This all goes back to the "warrior cop" mentality, a fairly recent development. There was a time when cops saw citizens as their neighbors. Now they see themselves as an occupying force surrounded by enemies.
https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-.../dp/1610394577
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...killology.html
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-industry.html

That’s kinda my point, though. I WAS part of an occupying force, surrounded by enemies, and still couldn’t get away with the kind of stuff they do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 11:54 AM   #75
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Back to the beginning. They didn't pull him over. They followed him into a parking lot, where he parked his car and got out. They screamed at him to get back in his car, which he failed to do for the obvious reasons. Then within literally seconds they jumped out and attacked him. I don't think it would have been unreasonable to talk to him -- or try to -- before they identified him as a deadly threat. When she screamed "Who do you think you are?" they told us exactly what they were thinking: "We've got the badge and the gun; we own you."

Walking toward a police car is not a crime and shouldn't be treated as one.
They followed him with their red and blue lights flashing and followed him till he stopped What in the ever loving **** do you think "pulling someone over" actually means? You think police grab speeding cars and literally pull the vehicle off the road?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 12:49 PM   #76
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Back to the beginning. They didn't pull him over. They followed him into a parking lot, where he parked his car and got out. They screamed at him to get back in his car, which he failed to do for the obvious reasons. Then within literally seconds they jumped out and attacked him. I don't think it would have been unreasonable to talk to him -- or try to -- before they identified him as a deadly threat. When she screamed "Who do you think you are?" they told us exactly what they were thinking: "We've got the badge and the gun; we own you."

Walking toward a police car is not a crime and shouldn't be treated as one.
"I didn't hear you pull me over, therefore it didn't happen." So how, exactly, are they supposed to "pull over" this unlawful mime?
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius

Last edited by Warp12; 4th October 2021 at 01:18 PM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 04:42 PM   #77
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,914
The cops' immediate reactions, both of them, are to assume they are under threat. Screaming orders at the guy. How often do individual cops actually run up on people who intend to do them harm? Practically never? Yet this is the go to response.

Maybe he saw the lights and thought someone else got pulled over? Lot of possible explanations. But why is it on him? This guy did nothing wrong at all.

Something is deeply wrong with how cops are trained and this is evident in the first 5 seconds of their interaction with this guy.

"Who do you think you are?"
"Gonna walk up on us like that?"

Listen to them they sound like punks. Don't be rollin up on da blues like dat in Idaho, yo.

**** them.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 10:22 PM   #78
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 26,906
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Are you saying being deaf should be a reason to refuse someone the privilege of driving? Why? What can or can't they do that anyone else can, behind the wheel? Most people listen to their music maxed out, or stare at their phones, or (as in my case) wear ear buds (when I'm on my motorcycle). What's the difference?
I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal to wear headphones while driving, and I'm sure that applies to earbuds as well.

At least, it was when I went through driver's ed 40+ years ago in Illinois.

I had always assumed that deaf people couldn't get driver's licenses. They can't hear sirens or horns.

(This is in no way intended to excuse anything that happened in relation to the traffic stop. If what the plaintiff alleges is true, bad stuff happened.)

ETA: Looked it up. Laws vary from state to state. It is legal in some states to wear headphones or earbuds. It is illegal in others. It is ambiguous in others.

Deaf people are allowed to drive in all fifty states.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 4th October 2021 at 10:31 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th October 2021, 11:16 PM   #79
TofuFighter
Master Poster
 
TofuFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,757
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They followed him with their red and blue lights flashing and followed him till he stopped What in the ever loving **** do you think "pulling someone over" actually means? You think police grab speeding cars and literally pull the vehicle off the road?
I'm not sure that your analysis of the length of time that the police lights were on and following Mistic's vehicle is correct.
In the video, starting at .06 and then the police car stopping in the parking lot at 0.26, the police lights are on, but in this time Mistic has pulled into the parking area and already climbed out of his vehicle.
I don't think you can conclude from this that they followed him with their lights on for any length of time at all.

What is the police protocol for when they should activate their body cams? If they had been following him for a longer period of time, would they have activated their body cams sooner? It's possible that the video itself has been shortened


(Also - I didn't link your previous post, but I re-checked the OP, found a statement by the Idaho police, but not the police report itself. Is that what you were referring to?)
__________________
The "illusion of truth" effect: “Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”

Last edited by TofuFighter; 4th October 2021 at 11:20 PM.
TofuFighter is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th October 2021, 06:19 AM   #80
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
I'm not sure that your analysis of the length of time that the police lights were on and following Mistic's vehicle is correct.
In the video, starting at .06 and then the police car stopping in the parking lot at 0.26, the police lights are on, but in this time Mistic has pulled into the parking area and already climbed out of his vehicle.
I don't think you can conclude from this that they followed him with their lights on for any length of time at all.
You're losing me here. You are proposing the cops were just cruising down the street with their lights on when Mistic was already walking around outside the laundromat? Seems an odd assertion. Also, it was night, and the cops prob couldn't see the driver in his car. How did they know Mistic was the driver of the car they were following if the car was 50 feet away and they had just pulled up? Mistic would just have been some random guy very far away from the car they were after.

The complaint says that the police parked 50 feet away from Mistic's car. Big parking lot, I guess. So why do both officers simultaniously jolt and abruptly yell to get back in his car, if it was 50 feet away? That makes no sense at all. What makes more sense is that they followed Mistic in, and he got out as soon as the patrol car stopped. Note that at :25, the cops go from still and relaxed to both suddenly bolting, slamming the car in park, and telling him to get back in the car. That only makes sense if Mistic had just gotten out of his.

The suit also says Mistic was 5-10 feet away from the cruiser. Demonstrably false. He is inches from the driver side door. Summers, who was on the passenger side, gets out and runs around the back of the car to confront Mistic, and the driver (Hanning) is not even out of the car yet. Again, the video is dodgy, but it certainly looks like Mistic is fighting Summers. He does not have his hands up like he is non-threatening. His elbows are up like he is boxing and he is swinging.

The suit also mentions that Mistic had some kind of movie prop money in his wallet, that he was charged with (possessing counterfeit money or something).

All in, yeah, the cops need to calm the **** down, in this one specifically and in general. Still, not going straight to lethal techniques kind of makes me a little optimistic, after George Floyd and Blake and Shaver and the rest.

He was not denied pen and paper in jail. The lawyer claims it was provided "sparingly", but in context of a civil suit, that doesn't mean much.

Quote:
What is the police protocol for when they should activate their body cams? If they had been following him for a longer period of time, would they have activated their body cams sooner? It's possible that the video itself has been shortened
How long do you expect a cop to follow you with lights on before you pull over? Here in the States, you pull over at the first opportunity. And the law is crystal clear that you stay in the vehicle.

Body cams are turned on at the start of an interaction, plus or minus. I don't think police are required to have them rolling before they interact with a suspect.

Quote:
(Also - I didn't link your previous post, but I re-checked the OP, found a statement by the Idaho police, but not the police report itself. Is that what you were referring to?)
My bad. I meant the suit, linked below. The police report has not been released, I suppose until a FOI request has been filed.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...ginal-petition

eta: the suit says Mistic was going to the laundromat to do his laundry. His car was parked at least 50 feet away. He was empty handed. So why wasn't he carrying his clothes to be laundered? What was he going to do, just strip down and wash the clothes he was wearing? He was empty handed because he was just getting out of his car to address the cops that just pulled him over.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 5th October 2021 at 07:13 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.