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Old 30th September 2021, 03:25 AM   #81
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Question: do penalties for refusing to use "appropriate pronouns" for transgender men & women, on publicly funded school grounds, violate the 1st Amendment?

One could argue that it does. One could argue, that they have the right to believe that someone born a male at birth stays a male till death, reconstructive surgery & hormone treatment be damned. And firing or suspending, or even fining someone for calling a man "he/sir/Mr" when they self-identify as a female, violates the US Constitution.

How do we encourage such people to respect the identity wishes of others? I don't know. This question is about penalties.
As for the science:
  • I posted a link to an interesting scientific article which explained that physical gender lies along a spectrum, there not being two single and fully distinct genders, as naive realists might believe. That link can be found some months back in the moderated thread that you have declined to post in, for whatever reason.
  • Language use is a question of social mores interacting with convention, making the use of given terms more or less appropriate within sociolinguistic context.
When law attempts to regulate language, for all its good intentions, normally it will not be effective, as the processes involved are not regulated consciously, with the exception of cases in which one finds oneself in a sociolinguitistic context that is inimicable to one's own preferred usage, the penalty being social disapproval, which is how evolving mores work.

In more general terms, one would need to show that a given language does not have any other means by which to express a given concept to later allege that restrictions on certain terms impede free speech, as alternate terms to express the same meaning are available. Still, law many not appreciate this distinction, and on a case by case basis, one would need to see if and how the right to free speech is violated.

Sociolinguistically, the terms you advocate -- irrespective of context and common practice -- are today in common use among those least aware of the science with respect to gender, and/or least concerned about, oh, say, a flying ham fist in response to open insult. This practice is similar, for example, to the use of the n-word in the 1950s; still very common among a certain crowd, one which today gets all pricky if called "racist", one indication that social mores have nonetheless had their effect.
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Old 30th September 2021, 03:31 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And you are factually mistaken in that belief. Once again, almost universally, whether one is able to call himself "a man", or has a right to expect others to recognize and treat him as one, has always been considered an acquired trait rather than an innate and immutable one; subject to provenance and challenge in any individual's case, "biology" notwithstanding. "A man" has always been treated as something one has to become, rather than something a person can claim purely as a function of his existence. This concept is the entire reason "rites of passage" exist; unless you now wish to deny that they do.
Fun trivia i.e. meat for pub quizzes - for quite some time in English the word "girl" meant a child of any sex.
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Old 30th September 2021, 10:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Fun trivia i.e. meat for pub quizzes - for quite some time in English the word "girl" meant a child of any sex.
Sure. Similarly for some time in English the word 'man' meant either an adult male human or a representational member of the human species regardless of sex. Depending on context.
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Old 30th September 2021, 10:27 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your intellectual superiors will decide if your pronouns conform to the new orthodoxy.
Great. Now what am I supposed to call them?
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Old 30th September 2021, 10:30 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Fun trivia i.e. meat for pub quizzes - for quite some time in English the word "girl" meant a child of any sex.
And boys wore pink dresses until being "breeched" up until about 1930.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:29 AM   #86
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Mod WarningMany, many posts have been moved to AAH as off-topic for this thread. This thread is specifically about the use of pronouns vs 1st amendment rights. Transgender issues belong in the established transgender thread. I did not not merge them into the other thread because it would cause a lot of confusion there, but you are free to raise the excised posts there.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:xjx388
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