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Old 1st October 2021, 05:25 PM   #1
RRBacon
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First Flight

About a year ago, there was this documentary about how the Wright Bros were not the first to fly by means of powered craft, but that The record according to the Smithsonian is held by the Wright brothers however there are newspaper records that clearly dispute these claims by reporting the prior attempts at the time but the Smithsonian has copyright on the claim but would lose the craft which is a good attraction. There was a previous recorded flight in North Africa in the 15th century but the flier perished on landing, though it was like a hang glider.



1901 - Gustav Weisskopf, 14. August 1901. 800 m weit in 15 m Höhe.

1903 - Karl Jatho, 18. August 1903. Angeblich 18 m weit in 1 m Höhe.

1903 - Orville und Wilbur Wright, 17. Dezember 1903. Angeblich 36 m weit in 3 m Höhe.

1906 - Alberto Santos Dumont, 23. Oktober 1906. 60 m weit in 5 m Höhe.

Höhe = Height weit = (far) distance
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Old 1st October 2021, 05:31 PM   #2
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Go ahead and tell us the details of each aircraft you allude to.

Dumont didn't attempt unaided heavier than air flight until after the Wright Brothers achieved it. This much is well known.
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Old 1st October 2021, 07:06 PM   #3
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Piffle...kiddos these days...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgolfier_brothers

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Zo uou guyas thinking a silk fabric inflaredid with fire hot air lifting humannez is not flying? Try it mon ami.
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Old 1st October 2021, 07:25 PM   #4
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Otto Lilienthal, 1891

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal

Not powered, but heavier-than-air.
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:18 PM   #5
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The Smithsonian actually denied the Wright's accomplishment for decades because their secretary S. P. Langley was trying to achieve powered flight at the same time and failed repeatedly.
Santos-Dumont and Bleriot achieved flight pretty close to the same time, but without the Wright's key innovation -- roll control.
The brothers were undeniably the first to achieve truly controlled powered flight.
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Old 1st October 2021, 08:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
About a year ago, there was this documentary about how the Wright Bros were not the first to fly by means of powered craft, but that The record according to the Smithsonian is held by the Wright brothers however there are newspaper records that clearly dispute these claims by reporting the prior attempts at the time but the Smithsonian has copyright on the claim but would lose the craft which is a good attraction. There was a previous recorded flight in North Africa in the 15th century but the flier perished on landing, though it was like a hang glider.







1901 - Gustav Weisskopf, 14. August 1901. 800 m weit in 15 m Höhe.



1903 - Karl Jatho, 18. August 1903. Angeblich 18 m weit in 1 m Höhe.



1903 - Orville und Wilbur Wright, 17. Dezember 1903. Angeblich 36 m weit in 3 m Höhe.



1906 - Alberto Santos Dumont, 23. Oktober 1906. 60 m weit in 5 m Höhe.



Höhe = Height weit = (far) distance
Whitehead (Weisskopf) is your contender but none of his claims pass the smell test.
He was a promoter (more nefarious motives as well?) but he was also a true proponent of powered flight, and an advocate of how transformative it would soon become.
But no actual evidence exists to back up his well... fanciful claims of beating the Wrights to the achievement. Sorry.

The contentious battle is almost sad. Bell, the Wrights, various factions at the Smithsonian, the great cycle racer Glenn Curtis and many others.
Half of them would have murdered any of the others to win the race.

Try this page...
https://www.wright-brothers.org/Hist..._Whitehead.htm


Now I'm reminded I should re-read "Dawn Over Kitty Hawk"... again.
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Old 1st October 2021, 11:49 PM   #7
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Got you beat. First heavier-than-air flight.

Lawrence Hargrave, 1894.
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Old 1st October 2021, 11:50 PM   #8
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It's still Otto Lilienthal.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 12:57 AM   #9
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Richard Pearse, 1904

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/richard-pearse
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:03 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Otto Lilienthal, 1891

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Lilienthal

Not powered, but heavier-than-air.

Sir George Cayley, 1853.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:24 AM   #11
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See also Pilcher, Chanute, Le Bris, all of who were experimenting with gliders in the 19th century.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:12 AM   #12
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Montgolfiers?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:14 AM   #13
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Whole lot of you lost the plot I see.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Thanks for that!
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:55 AM   #15
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Gliders are not powered flight. Kites, moored and unmoored are not powered flight. We all know what the world was working towards. We all know what the Wright Brothers achieved and why it's notable.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:58 AM   #16
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This is an extremely silly thread. Balloons, kites, gliders, dubious claimants all aside -- it was the Wright's who changed the world.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:10 AM   #17
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:16 AM   #18
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Come to that, Hiram Maxim (yeah, Mr. Machine Gun) flew in 1894, that is, he left the track his multi-ton steam-powered plane ran on. Then he crashed. I apologize for not providing a link, but I'm inept with this #×☆■!+x phone. Rather like Hiram.

A very senior Russian engineer who ought to have known better once assured me that Czarist inventors were flying years before Kitty Hawk. I nodded and said Mhm.

Lunges into the air without control may have been achieved before the Wrights, but so what?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Lunges into the air without control may have been achieved before the Wrights, but so what?
Yup, that's the key. The best previous gliders could do was skid around turns. The Wrights developed roll control.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Gliders are not powered flight. Kites, moored and unmoored are not powered flight. We all know what the world was working towards. We all know what the Wright Brothers achieved and why it's notable.

OK, how about Clément Ader, Félix du Temple or Hiram Maxim then?
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Old 2nd October 2021, 09:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yup, that's the key. The best previous gliders could do was skid around turns. The Wrights developed roll control.

Basically, they achieved sustained and controlled flight rather than hops.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yup, that's the key. The best previous gliders could do was skid around turns. The Wrights developed roll control.
Exactly. Control is the keyword. You can put a sufficiently powerful engine on a barn-door and it may fly, if you are lucky, but it will not be an aircraft. The Wrights made and flew an aircraft with full axis control.

Hans
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Exactly. Control is the keyword. You can put a sufficiently powerful engine on a barn-door and it may fly…

That’s pretty much what Maxim did.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That’s pretty much what Maxim did.
Exactly.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:54 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
This is an extremely silly thread. Balloons, kites, gliders, dubious claimants all aside -- it was the Wright's who changed the world.
Their part in apostrophe abuse is a blight on their record, though.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Come to that, Hiram Maxim (yeah, Mr. Machine Gun) flew in 1894, that is, he left the track his multi-ton steam-powered plane ran on. Then he crashed. I apologize for not providing a link, but I'm inept with this #×☆■!+x phone. Rather like Hiram.

A very senior Russian engineer who ought to have known better once assured me that Czarist inventors were flying years before Kitty Hawk. I nodded and said Mhm.

Lunges into the air without control may have been achieved before the Wrights, but so what?
In 50,000 B.C. the caveman Og, being chased by a sabre-tooth tiger, ran off a cliff. He flapped his arms in an attempt to fly, and managed to stay in the air for 3.7 seconds before an unfortunate meeting with the ground which caused his death. But his death was an extremely important event in the history of aviation! A statute should be dedicated to him!
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Old 2nd October 2021, 11:10 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Their part in apostrophe abuse is a blight on their record, though.
Damn autocorrect!
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Old 2nd October 2021, 01:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
This is an extremely silly thread. Balloons, kites, gliders, dubious claimants all aside -- it was the Wright's who changed the world.

The Wright's weren't the first to fly, they weren't the first to achieve controlled flight, they weren't the first to achieve powered flight.



They were the first to achieve controlled and powered flight.



But from that, the only thing they owned was the wing warping system. A system that was of limited utility.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by deverett View Post
The Wright's weren't the first to fly, they weren't the first to achieve controlled flight, they weren't the first to achieve powered flight.



They were the first to achieve controlled and powered flight.



But from that, the only thing they owned was the wing warping system. A system that was of limited utility.
Limited utility? Until Glenn Curtiss dodged their patent with ailerons, it was the only way to do truly controlled flight. They were the first to achieve roll control.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:34 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
In 50,000 B.C. the caveman Og, being chased by a sabre-tooth tiger, ran off a cliff. He flapped his arms in an attempt to fly, and managed to stay in the air for 3.7 seconds before an unfortunate meeting with the ground which caused his death. But his death was an extremely important event in the history of aviation! A statute should be dedicated to him!
They could call it Og's Law.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:55 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
They could call it Og's Law.
Og's Law: What comes down won't go up.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:56 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
You can put a sufficiently powerful engine on a barn-door...
Make it two significantly powerful engines and you've got the F-4 Phantom 2.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:06 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Come to that, Hiram Maxim (yeah, Mr. Machine Gun) flew in 1894, that is, he left the track his multi-ton steam-powered plane ran on. Then he crashed.

IIRC the track had restraining rails which prevented the craft rising more than a few inches. I suspect that it was basically uncontrollable.

Quote:
A very senior Russian engineer who ought to have known better once assured me that Czarist inventors were flying years before Kitty Hawk. I nodded and said Mhm.

Mozhaiski. Apparently his plane was airborne for about the length of a cricket pitch after being launched from a ramp.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 11:19 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Make it two significantly powerful engines and you've got the F-4 Phantom 2.
... Which was actually a very aerodynamic plane.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 12:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... Which was actually a very aerodynamic plane.
True enough... but so is a dart.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 05:25 PM   #36
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RC modelers have made things like lawnmowers and toilets fly. But they still used the Wright's concept of roll control.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 05:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Whitehead (Weisskopf) is your contender but none of his claims pass the smell test.
He was a promoter (more nefarious motives as well?) but he was also a true proponent of powered flight, and an advocate of how transformative it would soon become.
But no actual evidence exists to back up his well... fanciful claims of beating the Wrights to the achievement. Sorry.

The contentious battle is almost sad. Bell, the Wrights, various factions at the Smithsonian, the great cycle racer Glenn Curtis and many others.
Half of them would have murdered any of the others to win the race.

Try this page...
https://www.wright-brothers.org/Hist..._Whitehead.htm


Now I'm reminded I should re-read "Dawn Over Kitty Hawk"... again.
I know breaking orthodoxy is hard, apparently WeissKopf consulted with Bros Wright as well, however 2 newspaper articles were published at that time on the event, and yes no footage, imagine if 911 had not been filmed? I think youtube has some stuff there.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by RRBacon View Post
I know breaking orthodoxy is hard, apparently WeissKopf consulted with Bros Wright as well, however 2 newspaper articles were published at that time on the event, and yes no footage, imagine if 911 had not been filmed? I think youtube has some stuff there.
Read the page I linked, I'd appreciate countering accounts.
The articles were reproduced widely... but weren't from the actual local papers and journalists. And the witness accounts, or their actual existence, is un-evidenced.

Were they aware of each other? Of course.
This was an almost brutal battle occurring around the globe with factions, shifting loyalties, attempts (and successes) at discrediting competitors, bad actions (Bell's consortium ranks high there).
Most wanted the fame of achievement, but there were obvious fortunes to be had in backing a winner and I think Whitehead was more in that camp, though he was passable as an engine developer (at least early on) and I don't at all doubt his sincerity in wanting to see the changes flight would bring.
But he was a glider when all is said and done.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:30 PM   #39
Jim_MDP
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
RC modelers have made things like lawnmowers and toilets fly. But they still used the Wright's concept of roll control.
Wing warping didn't last, obviously.
IMO... of far greater lasting influence was the jumpstart the Wrights gave everyone by building their small wind tunnels and meticulously examining the accepted data on wing shape and chord length/design... and showing it to be terminally in error.
Their corrected data allowed for success with the then available limited powerplants.
And a crap ton of work went into improving those once they had aircraft flying, and for sale, in front of govt reps (usually military) across the pond.
Oddly... our own govt didn't see the worth. Or had been waved off the Wright designs. Go figure.
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Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything.

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"Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.
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Old 5th October 2021, 11:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
True enough... but so is a dart. [emoji 1]
I don't understand this commitment to pretending good things are bad. What is it that you dislike about the F-4?
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