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Old 6th October 2021, 11:38 AM   #1
The Atheist
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Where Did the Middle Go?

I said a couple of days ago in a post responding to Butter! that the middle ground seems to have disappeared.

I see it a lot since I sit on a strange piece of ground where I describe my political leaning as "democratic socialist libertarian capitalist". I don't fit any one political ideology and accordingly I am labelled a fascist Trump supporter by people on one side, and a commie totalitarian pawn of China by people on the other, when I think my views are midway between the two. Some parts of the right are good, some parts of the left are good, and both have ideologies I detest.

Balance seems impossible, apparently driven by the polarisation caused by online discussions, so it seems entirely apposite to hold this discussion online. I've kicked it off a subject because today, I see this in our local newspaper and it struck the chord I'm talking about: https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-pos...es-of-an-issue

I'm not saying there are "fine people on both sides", but the Mongrel Mob issue in that piece is a perfect example of what I mean, and the journo puts it very well - just because a group is outside the law doesn't mean they're irredeemable scum who can't have a place in society. I have two mates who each received sentences of nine years in jail for dealing methamphetamine, and one of them is one of very few blokes I'd trust with my life. Redneck racists refusing the vaccine in Kentucky while wearing "Better Russian than Democrat" shirts might well be the type who beat their wives, but they might equally be the people who stop others doing so, and while we demonise them for one thing we might be overlooking an important contribution to society in other ways.

Where did the middle ground go, and how do we get it back?
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:43 AM   #2
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Kinda-sorta Blue Dog here (conservative Democrat). Because of the willful extreme polarization nowadays, it means we can't get along with anyone. Rs think we are closet Commies and Ds think we are Nazis playing at plausible deniability.

Which is reason number 6 why I hate people.
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:47 AM   #3
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Tough tale boys. I can't imagine the difficulties you face in day-to-day life.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Where did the middle ground go, and how do we get it back?
I don't know how to do this, but I think there are actually two changes that need to happen.

The first is to separate the question of personal morality from political position. There are a lot of people who consider holding the correct political positions to be the primary question of morality for the individual, and this is a profound mistake. And it manifests in two ways: excusing bad behavior (in one's self and in others) when the person misbehaving holds the right political positions, and condemning people for holding the wrong political positions even if they are moral and upstanding in their personal lives.

The second problem, which I fear is worse, is that the role of government needs to be reduced. The less of a role government plays in our lives, the less important politics becomes. When less is at stake in which political positions one holds, then there is less acrimony surrounding whatever happens in politics. Solving the second problem would do much to solve the first. But I don't see a path to achieving this.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:18 PM   #5
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It's the media, including social media. Middle is boring. Nobody talks about middle. Extremes are what we talk about. So if you want to be talked about, you have to go to the extreme.
Sure, you can oppose extremes by being moderate .. but then you are less talked about, comparer to the guy who opposes extremes by the opposite extremes.
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Old 6th October 2021, 12:23 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's the media, including social media.
From two days ago:
Hackers Warn That If Demands Aren’t Met They Will Reactivate Facebook

(and yes, I know it's satire... but is it really?)
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I said a couple of days ago in a post responding to Butter! that the middle ground seems to have disappeared.

I see it a lot since I sit on a strange piece of ground where I describe my political leaning as "democratic socialist libertarian capitalist". I don't fit any one political ideology and accordingly I am labelled a fascist Trump supporter by people on one side, and a commie totalitarian pawn of China by people on the other, when I think my views are midway between the two. Some parts of the right are good, some parts of the left are good, and both have ideologies I detest.

Balance seems impossible, apparently driven by the polarisation caused by online discussions, so it seems entirely apposite to hold this discussion online. I've kicked it off a subject because today, I see this in our local newspaper and it struck the chord I'm talking about: https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-pos...es-of-an-issue

I'm not saying there are "fine people on both sides", but the Mongrel Mob issue in that piece is a perfect example of what I mean, and the journo puts it very well - just because a group is outside the law doesn't mean they're irredeemable scum who can't have a place in society. I have two mates who each received sentences of nine years in jail for dealing methamphetamine, and one of them is one of very few blokes I'd trust with my life. Redneck racists refusing the vaccine in Kentucky while wearing "Better Russian than Democrat" shirts might well be the type who beat their wives, but they might equally be the people who stop others doing so, and while we demonise them for one thing we might be overlooking an important contribution to society in other ways.

Where did the middle ground go, and how do we get it back?
The middle ground is keeping it's collective head down and going on with the job of keeping the planet working, whilst the extremists from both sides scream at each other from their barricades.
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:12 PM   #8
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The middle didn't go anywhere. The Right just went fully insane and is demanding "The middle" still be in "mostly crazy."
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The middle ground is keeping it's collective head down and going on with the job of keeping the planet working, whilst the extremists from both sides scream at each other from their barricades.
Pretty much this. We're here. We have just learned that we're targets for both fringes so we don't stick our noses over the parapet all that much.
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:30 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know how to do this, but I think there are actually two changes that need to happen.

The first is to separate the question of personal morality from political position. There are a lot of people who consider holding the correct political positions to be the primary question of morality for the individual, and this is a profound mistake. And it manifests in two ways: excusing bad behavior (in one's self and in others) when the person misbehaving holds the right political positions, and condemning people for holding the wrong political positions even if they are moral and upstanding in their personal lives.

The second problem, which I fear is worse, is that the role of government needs to be reduced. The less of a role government plays in our lives, the less important politics becomes. When less is at stake in which political positions one holds, then there is less acrimony surrounding whatever happens in politics. Solving the second problem would do much to solve the first. But I don't see a path to achieving this.
I see it as the unintended (or maybe intended) consequences of two converging factors:
- the insertion of religion into politics as a primary plank, rather than just one of the considerations; and
- non-compulsory voting, which requires the whipping up of partisan fervor to get the voters out to vote.

Combine the two, and you have strong incentives to both take a distinctive position, and demonize the opposition to make that distinction marketable. You need voters to want to keep *those guys* out because at least you don’t eat babies…
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Pretty much this. We're here. We have just learned that we're targets for both fringes so we don't stick our noses over the parapet all that much.
Just so I have a gauge in all this, you're saying that your political views and beliefs are representative of "the middle"?

Can we get some definition of "the middle" then?

In that case, I'm absolutely in "the middle".
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:40 PM   #12
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What do you even think is a middle view?
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Old 6th October 2021, 01:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's the media, including social media. Middle is boring. Nobody talks about middle. Extremes are what we talk about. So if you want to be talked about, you have to go to the extreme.
Sure, you can oppose extremes by being moderate .. but then you are less talked about, comparer to the guy who opposes extremes by the opposite extremes.
Probably not. The rest of the developed world got new media around the same time we in the US did, and polarization is seemingly decreasing in many of those countries, to the extent that we have empirical measures of such things.

This is mostly an American problem, and our political system just incentivizes polarization. Multi-party elections would probably help. If you're a center-right voter, you have your choice of center-right parties, and if your preferred party going bonkers crazy, you can just switch your vote without sacrificing too many of your preferences. Single-issue voters get an embarrassment of choices, which would probably reveal that they aren't quite as single-issue as they seem. Incentives for political demonization are also reduced--if you spend all your time attacking the Social Democrats, the Green Liberals have an opportunity to capitalize--them losing doesn't necessarily mean you win.

Beyond that, our national elections have been very close in the US for decades now--the last presidential election where the popular vote difference between the top two candidates was more than 10% was in 1984--it was a routine occurrence before that. This should be healthy in a democracy, but it's bad news in the US, as it kills incentives for compromise--sabotaging the party in power can just as easily lead to electoral success. What I think of as the low point for polarization in the US, the post-war era, was an era of Democratic electoral domination--they controlled the house every year from 1955 to 1995. A Republican could be certain that he'd be working with a Democratic house during that period, and thus couldn't afford to make an enemy of them. Today, there's a decent chance the GOP will take the house, the senate, and the presidency in the next election, and refusing to work with the current administration might actually help them do so.

We've also seen a major resorting of political parties in the last few decades, reducing ideological diversity within the parties, which makes pitching to the middle all the harder.

Last edited by mumblethrax; 6th October 2021 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Just so I have a gauge in all this, you're saying that your political views and beliefs are representative of "the middle"?

Can we get some definition of "the middle" then?

In that case, I'm absolutely in "the middle".
Most of my views are definitely middle. I have a few that are a bit further out, but they land on either side of the political divide. I even have a few views that qualify as progressive, and one that borders on downright communism.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:14 PM   #15
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They have pretty effectively siloed belief systems as well. Used to be that there were issues that neither party had a lock on. Civil rights up until the mid-60's or so, for example, where Southern Dems found common cause with Libertarian-leaning Republican's against Northern and Western Dems who agreed (on that issue) with big-business Republicans.

Gun control, abortion, and others also cut across party lines - not any more.

And this is where the Silos come in. Most people who support one plank of their given party probably support the others as well. So most people who favor tough-on-crime policies probably also oppose gun control, are suspicious of foreign aid, and a bigger military, oppose abortion, and so on. There is no benefit to any Republican who crosses the line on any of those planks, they'll just get caucused or primary'd by one who does support everything.

There are fewer wedge issues than there used to be. The closest is to highlight things that motivate the opposition but only have lukewarm support from "our" side. Think of how "defund the police" is used. Most Dems, Libs and Progs support the general concept of widespread restructuring of policing, mental health and addiction management in America, and oppose most tough-on-crime policies. If that's your plank, you are unlikely to vote Republican - but you might still find the phrase "defund the police" (or "rape culture", or "the patriarchy", or so on) less palatable. Highlighting such less-than-widely supported phrases motivates the conservative base in opposition while only getting lukewarm pushback from the establishment left. But even then, it is nowhere close to the sorts of wedge issues we had in the 70's and 80's as the parties were still not firmly firmed up each to their own respective belief silo.

More and more, it is "if you believe in one Republican policy, you believe in all of them". I think the Dems are still more varied in that respect.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:26 PM   #16
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I would never dispute that there are good people, or at least people who can be good in certain settings, in all groups.

I don't like it when callousness is placed above empathy. It becomes divisive. Let's be honest the rightwing tends toward that more at the moment, and internationally. I want people who can empathize with poor people and migrants and not just see them as parasites or invaders, even if they think borders and streets should be more secure.

Look at how Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan spoke about southern illegal immigrants and the border in their 1980 debate. Whatever you think of their job as president, messaging matters.
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Old 6th October 2021, 02:52 PM   #17
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I was on linked-in earlier and there was a post along the lines of “If you don’t want to hear the good news of Jesus then just stay away from me, because I’m overflowing with his love and can’t hold it in.”

Hundreds of positive comments, mostly just “Amen!”

I don’t live in view of anyone who wants a middle.
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Old 6th October 2021, 03:02 PM   #18
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There can be no middle when one party is acting basically insane. You're either on the crazy side or as far from it as you can get.
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Old 6th October 2021, 03:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Pretty much this. We're here. We have just learned that we're targets for both fringes so we don't stick our noses over the parapet all that much.
I agree. But I am saddened because when the middle remains silent, one of the extremes will prevail
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The first is to separate the question of personal morality from political position. There are a lot of people who consider holding the correct political positions to be the primary question of morality for the individual, and this is a profound mistake. And it manifests in two ways: excusing bad behavior (in one's self and in others) when the person misbehaving holds the right political positions, and condemning people for holding the wrong political positions even if they are moral and upstanding in their personal lives.

The second problem, which I fear is worse, is that the role of government needs to be reduced. The less of a role government plays in our lives, the less important politics becomes. When less is at stake in which political positions one holds, then there is less acrimony surrounding whatever happens in politics. Solving the second problem would do much to solve the first. But I don't see a path to achieving this.
Good analysis and I think we're pretty much on the same page.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's the media, including social media. Middle is boring. Nobody talks about middle. Extremes are what we talk about. So if you want to be talked about, you have to go to the extreme.
That is nailed. I frequently have to explain to people that good news doesn't sell.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The middle didn't go anywhere. The Right just went fully insane and is demanding "The middle" still be in "mostly crazy."
Nice try, but you're actually indulging in an attitude that hardens attitudes.

I get rocks from the left as much as the right, and thinking the problem is one way is as dangerous as ignoring it. Traitors of the left are worse than the right in my view - I'd rather have an openly honest crook than one who dons sheep's clothing.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I was on linked-in earlier...
It used to be the one place political and religious views stayed out of, but they've crept in over the past couple of years and it's only going to get worse, maybe due to being virgin territory.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I agree. But I am saddened because when the middle remains silent, one of the extremes will prevail
Nailing on the single most important point. The squeaky wheel makes the most noise in the silence of the middle.
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #21
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Ahhh, the Gold Old Days (which never existed...)
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 6th October 2021, 04:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
There can be no middle when one party is acting basically insane. You're either on the crazy side or as far from it as you can get.
In the U.S. we have a crazy party and a useless party.
In the culture war realm we have an increasingly unempathetic side and a side that's sometimes delusional.
If you ask me, right now the useless and delusional are more negotiable for the middle than the crazy and callous.
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Old 6th October 2021, 05:26 PM   #23
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I find that these hot takes depend on the Availability Heuristic. We’re always living in the most turbulent times because it always seems that way to us at the time. We look back at the Cold War, the riots and strikes of the past, and various other stuff and somehow wonder what everyone was worried about, yet in those days people also seemed to be convinced that the sky was falling.

In short the OP is far too vague to say anything useful.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I said a couple of days ago in a post responding to Butter! that the middle ground seems to have disappeared.
The middle ground is still here. You just don't see it because it doesn't get the same attention as the extremes.

But while the news media focuses on extreme views, there is an implicit implication that those extremes are bad. IOW, the majority audience is assumed to be 'in the middle'.

Quote:
I see this in our local newspaper and it struck the chord I'm talking about: https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-pos...es-of-an-issue
This is a perfect example:-

Quote:
In recent weeks, New Zealand’s hard left, sometimes called “the woke”, has condemned Lorde for singing in te reo and labelled a rival newspaper “genocidal” for including the perspectives of people wanting to ease lockdown restrictions.

Meanwhile, conservatives and right-wingers have hit out at the Ministry of Health after it organised for Waikato Mongrel Mob leader Sonny Fatupaito to visit Auckland.
The author rants on about extreme views posted on Instagram and facebook, while ignoring the views of the majority (who aren't seeking out social media echo chambers to justify their outrage). But clearly he expects his audience to agree with his moderate stance. He says "we're losing our ability to see two sides of an issue" but offers no proof of this. In fact the majority think condemning Lorde for singing in te reo is silly, that strict lockdowns shouldn't be maintained forever, and if 'engaging' with the Mongrel Mob can get them to vaccinate then it's a good thing. And we know he knows this because he assumes his audience agrees.

Current polls show NZ's ruling Labour party (center-left) with ~46%, National (right-wing) with 23%, and Greens (hard-left) with 7%. This shows that in New Zealand the middle ground has increased in the last few years.

In the US we see a similar trend. Biden (center-left) handily won despite the dire warnings by 'progressives' that he wasn't radical enough, while the extreme right's hold over republicans is slipping. You don't hear about the views of the moderate majority because they aren't posting inflammatory stuff on Facebook and Instagram, but opinion polls show their numbers are increasing.

Quote:
I don't fit any one political ideology and accordingly I am labelled a fascist Trump supporter by people on one side, and a commie totalitarian pawn of China by people on the other, when I think my views are midway between the two.
Just because your views don't all align on one side or the other, doesn't mean they are 'midway between'. In fact you have some quite extreme views that 'the middle' does not agree with.

Quote:
Where did the middle ground go, and how do we get it back?
You could start by not ignoring us, then perhaps become a bit more moderate yourself.
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Old 6th October 2021, 06:42 PM   #25
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In the US...

People who are into being in the center are still in the center. People who once had principles that they could describe as being in the center are no longer in the center.

The problem with habitual centrists is that they have no mooring. They define themselves by not taking sides, and when one side goes flying off they follow it because that is all that can be done because they stand for nothing but compromise.

Right now in the US there is a solid fascist right wing party opposed by a party whose leftmost members would be considered moderate New Dealers at most.

I don't know if it is buying right wing propaganda about how BLM are commie terrorists, or just being unable to think in other than relative terms or what but the idea of a relevant far left political force here is seeing ghosts.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:27 PM   #26
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I said in another thread, there is no law of nature that leads the centrist political triangulation to being true. 'Extreme' is not in how close to the middle a view is or how many people it offends but how far from reality it is.

So the 'center' is still there and no pretending that 'both sides' must have gone equally 'off the deep end' will change that.

More over, a 'centrist' is picking a position because it's in the middle. I don't have an inherent problem with moderates who come to their positions honestly. They can be convinced because they're not basing their positions on the meta consideration of what everyone else's is but on real factors. Those 'moderates' are now all called socialist leftists. The centrists have become apologists and appeasers in order to keep their identity as 'the sane ones in the middle' from conflicting with reality. The centrists could do with some intellectual honesty.

Not that there aren't other factors, but the extremes are those who most deny reality. That includes 'centrists' who pick fantasy in order to keep the label.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I said in another thread, there is no law of nature that leads the centrist political triangulation to being true. 'Extreme' is not in how close to the middle a view is or how many people it offends but how far from reality it is.

So the 'center' is still there and no pretending that 'both sides' must have gone equally 'off the deep end' will change that.

More over, a 'centrist' is picking a position because it's in the middle. I don't have an inherent problem with moderates who come to their positions honestly. They can be convinced because they're not basing their positions on the meta consideration of what everyone else's is but on real factors. Those 'moderates' are now all called socialist leftists. The centrists have become apologists and appeasers in order to keep their identity as 'the sane ones in the middle' from conflicting with reality. The centrists could do with some intellectual honesty.

Not that there aren't other factors, but the extremes are those who most deny reality. That includes 'centrists' who pick fantasy in order to keep the label.
This.
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Old 6th October 2021, 08:56 PM   #28
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I think politics will remain abysmally foolish until people outgrow this strange habit of poorly classifying sets of political desires in terms of the seating arrangements of some French Revolutionaries. With politics as in everything else in life: figure out what you actually want, and pursue it regardless of what it's called or considered or judged.
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Old 6th October 2021, 09:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think politics will remain abysmally foolish until people outgrow this strange habit of poorly classifying sets of political desires in terms of the seating arrangements of some French Revolutionaries. With politics as in everything else in life: figure out what you actually want, and pursue it regardless of what it's called or considered or judged.
I was actually hoping to stay further from the politics part of it, so it's my fault for mentioning it, but I started in SICE to try to avoid being purely politics.

I'd hoped for a bit more emphasis on the last paragraph of the OP.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'Extreme' is not in how close to the middle a view is or how many people it offends but how far from reality it is.
The biggest political conflicts are about values, not facts. And values are ultimately axiomatic. For example, whether you value the life of a fetus isn’t a question of reality. There is no objective right or wrong answer to that. Yet there absolutely are extreme positions about it.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:32 PM   #31
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The only "Middle" that counts in US politics is the one in the Swing States - and that Middle is far from the middle of the political spectrum.
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Old 6th October 2021, 10:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you even think is a middle view?
How about the entirely unreasonable notion that while abortion is generally bad and undesirable and should be discouraged if possible, it should nevertheless be available to everybody when there is a good reason for it?
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How about the entirely unreasonable notion that while abortion is generally bad and undesirable and should be discouraged if possible, it should nevertheless be available to everybody when there is a good reason for it?
Perfect!

I see a lot of pro-choice people demand that abortion up to birth should be the standard, and I think that's a step too far - anything close to term is unquestionably a human being.

Your position is sensible and very much in the middle of the two extreme positions.
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Old 6th October 2021, 11:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Perfect!

I see a lot of pro-choice people demand that abortion up to birth should be the standard, and I think that's a step too far - anything close to term is unquestionably a human being.

Your position is sensible and very much in the middle of the two extreme positions.
If you see that, you should delete your Cookies and search history.
It would be hard to find anyone who agrees with that unless the life of the mother is at stake.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you see that, you should delete your Cookies and search history.
Is there a new award for silliest post of the week? Why on earth would I be concerned about browser and/or search history?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It would be hard to find anyone who agrees with that unless the life of the mother is at stake.
I wasn't trying to find them, they're there to be seen and heard.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:18 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wasn't trying to find them, they're there to be seen and heard.
Indeed, the two extremes of this issue are that on the one side there are the people who shout loudly that abortion should never be performed, under any circumstances, even in cases of rape and incest, and even if the mother's life is at risk, and on the other side those who shout loudly that abortion at any time, for any reason, is every persons right and it should never be restricted.

As with most issues, the most sensible course is between the two, and that's a moderate view that rarely gets any airtime.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Is there a new award for silliest post of the week? Why on earth would I be concerned about browser and/or search history?



I wasn't trying to find them, they're there to be seen and heard.
Depending on the browser and search engine you use, what you find depends on what you've seen so far.
I think that others searching for exactly what you are searching would get different results.
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Old 7th October 2021, 12:47 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Depending on the browser and search engine you use, what you find depends on what you've seen so far.
I think that others searching for exactly what you are searching would get different results.
While this is absolutely true, and though clearing your search history won't change what you find as much as you think it might, it is ridiculous to say that those voices don't exist.
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Old 7th October 2021, 01:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Depending on the browser and search engine you use, what you find depends on what you've seen so far.
I wasn't searching for it; the view is expressed in lots of places.
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Old 7th October 2021, 01:38 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
From two days ago:
Hackers Warn That If Demands Aren’t Met They Will Reactivate Facebook

(and yes, I know it's satire... but is it really?)
100%! If you want to know where the middle ground has gone, ask Zuckerberg et al

This is an interview worth watching. It is Chris Hayes interviewing Tristan Harris from "The Social Dilemma" explaining exactly how Facebook's algorithm encourages division by literally programming your brain to help it achieve that

Now I know there will be conservatives here who will roll their eyes at the mention of Chris Hayes, but just try to get over your tribalism and watch the video... its only 10 minutes.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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