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Old 8th October 2021, 07:59 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
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Being paraplegic while black.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/crim...PLNDGPEGKBXRM/

Quote:
Body camera footage shows the interaction between Dayton police officers and a paraplegic man who would not exit his vehicle during a traffic stop and was yanked from the car and onto the road.

Clifford Owensby, the man pulled from his vehicle during a traffic stop Thursday, told the Dayton Daily News Monday afternoon that he felt helpless as officers put him on the ground, handcuffed him and then placed him into the back of a cruiser. The incident took place in the 1200 block of West Grand Avenue, according to a report.
A search for drugs in the car, the ostensible reason for demanding a paraplegic exit his vehicle without a wheelchair, yielded no contraband.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:19 AM   #2
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It will be interesting to see "How fast could he run?" will be asked for this case.
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:41 AM   #3
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Reading the whole article, this doesn't appear to be a case where the cop was shouting orders and didn't listen when the man said he was disabled. The cop offered to help him out of the car and the man refused, claiming that the cop had no right to touch him.

I'm rarely on the cops' side in these stories. I might not be even in this one. But he had a citable offense (the child in the back seat without a child safety seat) and refused to cooperate, and also had $22,000 cash in the car, which isn't a crime but WTF?
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Old 8th October 2021, 08:53 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Reading the whole article, this doesn't appear to be a case where the cop was shouting orders and didn't listen when the man said he was disabled. The cop offered to help him out of the car and the man refused, claiming that the cop had no right to touch him.

I'm rarely on the cops' side in these stories. I might not be even in this one. But he had a citable offense (the child in the back seat without a child safety seat) and refused to cooperate, and also had $22,000 cash in the car, which isn't a crime but WTF?
Maybe he didn't want to get out because he didn't have a wheelchair in the car? He said someone had helped him into his car. The cop put him on the ground and cuffed him for a trivial infraction. He could have issued the citation and sent him on his way. And on what basis was he demanding to search the car for drugs? No contraband was found. The driver doesn't have to explain why he was carrying cash.

And when the driver asked the cop to fetch a supervisor, why didn't he? The only reason is the "I'm the boss here" cop mentality.

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Old 8th October 2021, 09:15 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Maybe he didn't want to get out because he didn't have a wheelchair in the car? He said someone had helped him into his car. The cop put him on the ground and cuffed him for a trivial infraction. He could have issued the citation and sent him on his way. And on what basis was he demanding to search the car for drugs? No contraband was found. The driver doesn't have to explain why he was carrying cash.

And when the driver asked the cop to fetch a supervisor, why didn't he? The only reason is the "I'm the boss here" cop mentality.
If I heard correctly, the cop said he had prior drug convictions, and when there is probable cause for drug dealing (copious amounts of cash) during a legit stop, a drug search is a given.

I don't think they could send him on his way without a car seat for the kid, or the child remanded to someone with one. If something happened to the kid later, it would have been with the blessing of the police who knew he was driving with an unsecured child.

ETA: the driver said he was not getting out, and when the cop asked how he got in, the driver said he had help. I wonder if he had said "I can't stand on my own and need to be put immediately into a chair", this might not have happened?
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If I heard correctly, the cop said he had prior drug convictions, and when there is probable cause for drug dealing (copious amounts of cash) during a legit stop, a drug search is a given.
.....
Well, they didn't know about the cash at the time they pulled him out of his car, and apparently what the cop said was that they wanted to have a dog do an "air search" outside the car. That shouldn't have required the driver to exit, at least at that point. And the story doesn't say, but if the cops seized and kept the cash, that's another abuse that's often legal. It's not a crime to have cash.

Maybe the cop should have called an ambulance so EMTs could help the driver. I would think a cop would be very hesitant about the possibility of making a paraplegic's injuries worse. And of course, the cop refused to call a supervisor as the driver requested.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.....
I don't think they could send him on his way without a car seat for the kid, or the child remanded to someone with one. If something happened to the kid later, it would have been with the blessing of the police who knew he was driving with an unsecured child.
That's probably true, although it might depend on the age of the kid. An infant would need a seat; an older child might be able to use the seat belt. Some police departments give child seats away. Maybe they could have given him one. But the presence of a kid is all the more reason to tread lightly. Whatever the relationship is -- dad, uncle, mom's boyfriend -- the kid will never forget what he saw.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Reading the whole article, this doesn't appear to be a case where the cop was shouting orders and didn't listen when the man said he was disabled. The cop offered to help him out of the car and the man refused, claiming that the cop had no right to touch him.

I'm rarely on the cops' side in these stories. I might not be even in this one. But he had a citable offense (the child in the back seat without a child safety seat) and refused to cooperate, and also had $22,000 cash in the car, which isn't a crime but WTF?
Sounds like yet another incident where a black person does everything wrong when interacting with a police officer and suffers the consequences anybody of any race creed color or sex would suffer in the exact same circumstances and then whines about it.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, they didn't know about the cash at the time they pulled him out of his car, and apparently what the cop said was that they wanted to have a dog do an "air search" outside the car. That shouldn't have required the driver to exit, at least at that point. And the story doesn't say, but if the cops seized and kept the cash, that's another abuse that's often legal. It's not a crime to have cash.
You're right- the dog sniffed the cash. I'm surprised they were trained to do that, didn't know.

Quote:
Maybe the cop should have called an ambulance so EMTs could help the driver. I would think a cop would be very hesitant about the possibility of making a paraplegic's injuries worse. And of course, the cop refused to call a supervisor as the driver requested.
There's also the possibility that the driver was "known" to the cops. It's not a crime to have tens of thousands of dollars in cash in your car, true enough. But come on: it's a powerful indicator of being a dealer, and the guy had prior drug convictions. It's at least a coin flip that the cops had more suspicions than the video lets on to.

Quote:
That's probably true, although it might depend on the age of the kid. An infant would need a seat; an older child might be able to use the seat belt. Some police departments give child seats away. Maybe they could have given him one. But the presence of a kid is all the more reason to tread lightly. Whatever the relationship is -- dad, uncle, mom's boyfriend -- the kid will never forget what he saw.
Yeah. Kids don't need to see police being violent, if it's at all preventable.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:14 AM   #9
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Interesting case from a legal and ethical standpoint. Per SCOTUS precedent, police officers have the right to demand that drivers and passengers exit their vehicle during so much as a traffic stop. Does this apply to the physically disabled, however? I must admit that I'm a little hazy on the extent to which unlicensed "caregivers" who are not family members are actually legally authorized to perform that sort of transfer. It is certainly understandable that a disabled individual might have legitimate safety concerns when the untrained attempt to force movement upon them.

EDIT: Presuming that the police actually are untrained in this matter.

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Old 8th October 2021, 10:25 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Sounds like yet another incident where a black person does everything wrong when interacting with a police officer and suffers the consequences anybody of any race creed color or sex would suffer in the exact same circumstances and then whines about it.
You can't even pretend to believe this. You think if the cops had pulled over a middle-aged white man wearing an expensive suit or a grandmotherly white woman who said "I can't step out. I'm paraplegic," the cops would have thrown them on the ground and handcuffed them?

And the original stop was for tinted windows. That's a pretextual stop, often directed specifically at black drivers.
https://www.vera.org/blog/ending-pre...racial-justice
https://harvardcrcl.org/the-long-roa...textual-stops/

The state (actually Commonwealth) of Virginia has just banned such stops.
https://www.wsls.com/news/local/2021...ty-violations/

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Old 8th October 2021, 10:28 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
....
There's also the possibility that the driver was "known" to the cops. It's not a crime to have tens of thousands of dollars in cash in your car, true enough. But come on: it's a powerful indicator of being a dealer, and the guy had prior drug convictions. It's at least a coin flip that the cops had more suspicions than the video lets on to.
....
Sure. Maybe the driver's a bad guy, and maybe the cops know it. That doesn't justify what the cops did, which started with "suspicion of tinted window." The underlying crime here, once again, is "contempt of cop."
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
..... I must admit that I'm a little hazy on the extent to which unlicensed "caregivers" who are not family members are actually legally authorized to perform that sort of transfer. It is certainly understandable that a disabled individual might have legitimate safety concerns when the untrained attempt to force movement upon them.

EDIT: Presuming that the police actually are untrained in this matter.
I note that no "transfer," as to a wheelchair, was involved. They put him on the street, and he claims they injured him.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:43 AM   #13
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You can't even pretend to believe this. You think if the cops had pulled over a middle-aged white man wearing an expensive suit or a grandmotherly white woman who said "I can't step out. I'm paraplegic," the cops would have thrown them on the ground and handcuffed them?
Not sure why you felt it necessary to dress the white guy in an expensive suit. To put a thumb on the scale of your thought experiment, maybe?

After skimming the article and watching the video, one can ask if they think things would have played out much differently if the skin tone of the driver had been different. I don't think so at all.
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Old 8th October 2021, 10:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Not sure why you felt it necessary to dress the white guy in an expensive suit. To put a thumb on the scale of your thought experiment, maybe?
....
Because in interactions like this, class can matter as much as race. The cops know who they can usually get away with pushing around, and who they can't.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Because in interactions like this, class can matter as much as race. The cops know who they can usually get away with pushing around, and who they can't.
Gonna be a little tough to get a granny with drug and weapons prior convictions, Tbf.

So the driver claimed to be paraplegic, but didn't mention a wheelchair in the trunk or anything like that. I wonder if it was his car, and if it had disabled tags, or anything objective for the cops to confirm that he physically could not comply?
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And the original stop was for tinted windows. That's a pretextual stop, often directed specifically at black drivers.
The part everyone's ignoring. Followed by an unjustified "drug search" that seals the deal, and of course turned up nothing.

In my life I've gotten three traffic tickets - two for speeding when I was younger, and one for an expired plate. I've also had a few traffic stops where I was given warnings - not using a turn signal, an expired inspection sticker, and various burnt-out light bulbs. Each time, the officer checked my license and insurance, gave me the ticket or verbal warning at my window, and sent me on - yes, even with the expired plate. I never had to "step out of the vehicle" for any of these trivial traffic stops.
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The part everyone's ignoring. Followed by an unjustified "drug search" that seals the deal, and of course turned up nothing.
Of course they turned up nothing? You don't think there's a chance that a person with prior drug convictions has drugs in their car?

Quote:
In my life I've gotten three traffic tickets - two for speeding when I was younger, and one for an expired plate. I've also had a few traffic stops where I was given warnings - not using a turn signal, an expired inspection sticker, and various burnt-out light bulbs. Each time, the officer checked my license and insurance, gave me the ticket or verbal warning at my window, and sent me on - yes, even with the expired plate. I never had to "step out of the vehicle" for any of these trivial traffic stops.
OK. So what do you conclude from all of that?
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Old 8th October 2021, 12:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Gonna be a little tough to get a granny with drug and weapons prior convictions, Tbf.

So the driver claimed to be paraplegic, but didn't mention a wheelchair in the trunk or anything like that. I wonder if it was his car, and if it had disabled tags, or anything objective for the cops to confirm that he physically could not comply?
So why does the cop get the benefit of the doubt, but not the driver? How often do drivers falsely claim to be paraplegic? Call the EMTs, let them lift him into a wheelchair, and if he's faking they'll catch him.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Not sure why you felt it necessary to dress the white guy in an expensive suit. To put a thumb on the scale of your thought experiment, maybe?
Why does it put the thumb on the scale?
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why does it put the thumb on the scale?
Because it changes multiple variables while, at first read, attributing potentially different results to only one of them. In a subsequent post, he mentions that class as well as race could play a factor, however.

And class definitely can play a factor. I've been stopped...let me think...around ten times in my life. I've never been asked to step out of the car or had it searched. In fairness, one officer had been in Boy Scouts with my brother and another had my dad as a high school teacher. But I've never had tinted windows or other car modifications that attract attention. And I'm a middle class white guy whose cars, while older, don't usually have a lot of clutter in them.

I had a friend who was pulled over because he had a POS car in a nice neighborhood late at night once. He had long hair and a beat up Sirocco filled with junk. They searched his car. I guess white trash gets searched too. (To give you an idea, his other car was a VW microbus without heat. I winter, he bungee-corded a propane tank with a Mr. Heater attached between the seats and lit it for heat. Mr. Heater )

When my Hispanic step-son driving my wife's car (Porsche 944) was pulled over, they did search the car. (Claimed to smell pot which is funny because that stepson is a smoke nazi due to his asthma. My other stepson, however, that would have been a believable excuse.) My wife, when stopped in the same car has never been asked for permission to search. (She's white.) But an officer did tell her that her plates had been run a lot without traffic stops. Apparently they can tell how many times the plates have been run.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So why does the cop get the benefit of the doubt, but not the driver? How often do drivers falsely claim to be paraplegic?
Put the question more broadly: how many times do suspects try to deceive cops to evade arrest/search/prosecution?

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Call the EMTs, let them lift him into a wheelchair, and if he's faking they'll catch him.
If the driver said he needed a wheelchair and someone who knew what they were doing, absolutely. This driver just said nope, ain't happening. He said he had help getting in, so the cop says I'll give you help coming out. Driver flat refuses. The cop might be thinking that he is making excuses.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If I heard correctly, the cop said he had prior drug convictions...
I have a mate who drives beat-up old cars - fully legal and functioning, they just look like crap because he doesn't care. He has some teeth and looks like he lives in a bus stop.

He constantly gets hassled by cops, and they always search his car, because in their words "You're a known thief!"

His sole conviction was in 1978. It's almost like cops have a bias against people with criminal records. He's white and is a millionaire.

I wonder how many of the White Saviours™ would want to live in a society with no police.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wonder how many of the White Saviours™ would want to live in a society with no police.
Speaking as someone who lives in a society where the police don't kill quite so many people, I'd just like to mention that that's not the only alternative.

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Old 8th October 2021, 02:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I have a mate who drives beat-up old cars - fully legal and functioning, they just look like crap because he doesn't care. He has some teeth and looks like he lives in a bus stop.

He constantly gets hassled by cops, and they always search his car, because in their words "You're a known thief!"

His sole conviction was in 1978. It's almost like cops have a bias against people with criminal records. He's white and is a millionaire.

I wonder how many of the White Saviours™ would want to live in a society with no police.
I get Cinderella harrasment. I'm a building contractor, and look every scruffy bit the part. In daylight, I get the "working guy" pass and am not bothered much. At night, it is assumed I have been at the bar for hours and suddenly I "didn't have my blinker on at that last turn" an awful lot.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Speaking as someone who lives in a society where the police don't kill quite so many people, I'd just like to mention that that's not the only alternative.

Dave
We have no viable alternatives here without a massive cultural shift over here.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Speaking as someone who lives in a society where the police don't kill quite so many people, I'd just like to mention that that's not the only alternative.

Dave
They very rarely kill people here, either, but we've had (by our standards) a spate of them in recent years.
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Old 8th October 2021, 05:56 PM   #27
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What I see is a cop losing his cool rather than calling in for help, be it a medical team or just another officer. This cop could not be told no. The guy said he could be injured if the officer dragged him out, but no, the cop had to have his way, and right now!

Why does this cop insist to the point where he loses his cool, and yes he did lose his cool. And he seems to do so as the other cop pulls up.

I'm not saying the driver was 100% in the right. His attitude may be bad (and so what?) but his argument was valid in my opinion, at least enough for the cop to backoff and decide what to do.

I'm saying cops need to be able to calm down, reassess, and prioritize. This is just another example of a cop not wanting to be told no and not knowing how else to handle it.

The cops need to remember they are dealing with people. People have emotions, people will react in different ways. Cops need to be trained that it is okay to reassess a situation, and that sometimes they are wrong.

The guy had a kid in the car and was pulled over for basically nothing. Cops need to calm down and realize that THEY are a big reason, if not THE reason people act like this.

These people are supposed to be trained to deal with the public. This was not a difficult situation to handle.

And tinted windows? LOL uh huh.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:37 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What I see is a cop losing his cool rather than calling in for help, be it a medical team or just another officer.
It isn't easy being a cop.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It isn't easy being a cop.
Being a "pig" is a lot easier than being a cop.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:34 PM   #30
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History of drug and weapons violations, and $22k in the car. Seems to me, also, that he resisted as best he could considering his gimp status. I'll agree that the optics of them dragging him are not good, but I can't help but think karma played a role in this.

Also, as a side note, Dayton is generally a horrible area. Cops there probably deal with these kind of stops and resisting individuals on a daily basis.

Quote:
With a crime rate of 50 per one thousand residents, Dayton has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 20.
Report: Officers who forcefully removed paraplegic from car "followed the law"

Quote:
On Friday, the Dayton Fraternal Order of Police completed their investigation, and found the officers involved to have "followed the law, their training, and department policies and procedures." In the report, it was stated that the officers involved in the traffic stop used the least amount of force to remove Clifford Owensby, the paraplegic, from his car. "Sometimes the arrest of noncompliant individuals is not pretty, but it's a necessary part of law enforcement to maintain public safety, which is one of the fundamental ideologies of our society," the report stated.
https://dayton247now.com/news/local/...llowed-the-law

Of course, nobody really cares if this guy might be a scumbag who victimizes others. They all want to shed digital tears over the fact that he is black and disabled.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Of course, nobody really cares if this guy might be a scumbag who victimizes others. They all want to shed digital tears over the fact that he is black and disabled.
White saviour points are a valuable currency amongst the clique.
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
OK. So what do you conclude from all of that?
That the given reason for that man's traffic stop was a phony pretext, and the police officer intended to search the vehicle for "drugs" the moment he saw a black man driving it.
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
History of drug and weapons violations, and $22k in the car. Seems to me, also, that he resisted as best he could considering his gimp status. I'll agree that the optics of them dragging him are not good, but I can't help but think karma played a role in this.

Of course, nobody really cares if this guy might be a scumbag who victimizes others. They all want to shed digital tears over the fact that he is black and disabled.
Where do you get "victimizes others" from? His previous drug charge was for possession. I guess that's it, right - get caught doing some heroin, do your time, and it's now just "karma" that you'll be stopped on a whim and dragged bodily from your car by police for the rest of your life?
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Of course they turned up nothing? You don't think there's a chance that a person with prior drug convictions has drugs in their car?
...
OK. So what do you conclude from all of that?
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That the given reason for that man's traffic stop was a phony pretext, and the police officer intended to search the vehicle for "drugs" the moment he saw a black man driving it.
LMAO. Of course that is what you think.
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:54 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
White saviour points are a valuable currency amongst the clique.
No doubt, and they are racking them up around here.
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Old 9th October 2021, 01:02 AM   #36
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A little off-topic; but "White Savior Complex" actually has an original meaning, no matter how hard the forum's resident racism-apologists want to co-opt it as a neologism for "agreeing with a black person about a claim of racism".
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Old 9th October 2021, 03:13 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Being a "pig" is a lot easier than being a cop.
I was channeling the late, much-lamented Douglas Adams.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
History of drug and weapons violations, and $22k in the car.
Am I right in seeing the original offence was unrestrained kids in the car? If so, that's a fairly valid reason.

As to attitudes of people who don't put seatbelts on kids, I once very politely suggested to a woman with five children unrestrained in her car that they should be.

Her response, and I remember it vividly, was "**** off you Pakeha* **** and mind your own ******* business."

*Pakeha is Maori for white person, and often used pejoratively.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A little off-topic; but "White Savior Complex" actually has an original meaning, no matter how hard the forum's resident racism-apologists want to co-opt it as a neologism for "agreeing with a black person about a claim of racism".
Except, as shown in the White Saviour thread, it's black people who want the white saviours to butt out, exactly as the woman I mentioned above wanted me to butt out. They want to deal with the problems themselves, and going along with that is not racism apologetics.
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Old 9th October 2021, 04:33 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
A little off-topic; but "White Savior Complex" actually has an original meaning, no matter how hard the forum's resident racism-apologists want to co-opt it as a neologism for "agreeing with a black person about a claim of racism".
I wasn't aware that black persons either require or request your validation or confirmation that a given claim is racist.
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Old 9th October 2021, 07:06 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
.....
Am I right in seeing the original offence was unrestrained kids in the car? If so, that's a fairly valid reason.
....

The original offense was tinted windows (and, many of us suspect, "driving while black").
Quote:
The 11-minute police body camera footage obtained from the Dayton Police Department shows two officers interacting with Owensby as they obtain his license and information. The video shows one officer test the tint on the glass of the vehicle and then sees a child in the backseat of the vehicle and not in a car seat.
https://www.daytondailynews.com/crim...PLNDGPEGKBXRM/

Nobody says the cops can't stop a car. The issue is how they treated the driver.

Last edited by Bob001; 9th October 2021 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 9th October 2021, 08:46 AM   #40
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That the given reason for that man's traffic stop was a phony pretext, and the police officer intended to search the vehicle for "drugs" the moment he saw a black man driving it.
You may already believe that for whatever reason, but it would be silly to conclude it from the passage of yours I quoted earlier:

In my life I've gotten three traffic tickets - two for speeding when I was younger, and one for an expired plate. I've also had a few traffic stops where I was given warnings - not using a turn signal, an expired inspection sticker, and various burnt-out light bulbs. Each time, the officer checked my license and insurance, gave me the ticket or verbal warning at my window, and sent me on - yes, even with the expired plate. I never had to "step out of the vehicle" for any of these trivial traffic stops.
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