IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th October 2021, 07:05 PM   #121
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 23,740
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right. The bad guys are smarter than the cops. And?
So, giving them more leash is not going to fix that. Letting them bend the rules and use lazy work arounds like stopping people for fake reasons is not going to make things better. Allowing them to abuse citizens without remorse will not help dumb cops. It’s not the desk jockeys back at headquarters that are keeping them from closing out cases.

They aren’t worth your fandom.

The dude did his time. If he’s selling again I’m sure he will go back to jail when he messes up or the dumb cops get lucky. I’m not too worried about that. He’s not going to pull me out of my car and cuff me by the side of the road for refusing a drummed up search of my car.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 06:29 AM   #122
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The dude did his time. If he’s selling again I’m sure he will go back to jail when he messes up or the dumb cops get lucky. I’m not too worried about that. He’s not going to pull me out of my car and cuff me by the side of the road for refusing a drummed up search of my car.
This is one of the things, as someone who has gotten in trouble, that is so ridiculously bothersome. Just because people have been in trouble doesn't mean that's who they are for the rest of their lives.

I got in my big trouble when I was 18, and I'm now 40. Is anyone the same person they were 22, or even 5, years ago? How long do I have to pay for that crime? Which is exactly what Thermal is saying. This man can never change. He's always, lack of any evidence be damned, going to be that drug dealer.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 06:53 AM   #123
bonzombiekitty
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This man can never change. He's always, lack of any evidence be damned, going to be that drug dealer.
I mean, it's not unreasonable to think it's at least suspicious. Yeah, IMO, if you are carrying large amounts of cash around with you, there's a greater than normal chance you are engaging in some sort of illicit activity. But that doesn't mean you are engaging in such activity.

As I said, it doesn't really matter what the guy was up to. The police acted inappropriately regardless of whether he was actually facilitating drug dealing or was just doing something totally innocent.
bonzombiekitty is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 07:16 AM   #124
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I mean, it's not unreasonable to think it's at least suspicious. Yeah, IMO, if you are carrying large amounts of cash around with you, there's a greater than normal chance you are engaging in some sort of illicit activity. But that doesn't mean you are engaging in such activity.
It could be suspicious to some, but the cops didn't know he was carrying around large amounts of cash. So even if what you say is true, it's not really relevant. They didn't pull him over for "suspicion of carrying large amounts of cash". They pulled him over for "suspicion of tinted windows".

Maybe you find it odd, which is fine, but I don't. I don't have anywhere near $22k in cash, but I do keep about 10% of that in my underwear drawer at home. It's not in a target bag though, it's in a box that an old wallet came in.

I don't deal drugs.

Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
As I said, it doesn't really matter what the guy was up to. The police acted inappropriately regardless of whether he was actually facilitating drug dealing or was just doing something totally innocent.
Which is exactly my point; however, to some people it doesn't matter that he wasn't doing anything illegal. The fact that he has done things that are illegal means he's already guilty. As I mentioned, read Thermal's posts. Without a second thought he handwaves away the fact that there is no evidence by this man of any wrongdoing. The fact that he was busted before means that Owensby is obviously doing something illegal now.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 07:51 AM   #125
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So, giving them more leash is not going to fix that. Letting them bend the rules and use lazy work arounds like stopping people for fake reasons is not going to make things better. Allowing them to abuse citizens without remorse will not help dumb cops. It’s not the desk jockeys back at headquarters that are keeping them from closing out cases.

They aren’t worth your fandom.

The dude did his time. If he’s selling again I’m sure he will go back to jail when he messes up or the dumb cops get lucky. I’m not too worried about that. He’s not going to pull me out of my car and cuff me by the side of the road for refusing a drummed up search of my car.
I'm not concerned with Owensby personally. My argument is that this is not an example of police harrassing and brutalizing a guy because he is black, which the story was originally framed as.

Police are hawking a suspected drug house. Owesnsby makes a quick stop at it and leaves. That is consistent with an exchange, so the cops pull him over on a flimsy pretext. They find that the driver has recent drug and weapons priors, and while presumably still on probation, he is subject to free-air tests. To me, that is all consistent with a legit investigation, not racial hatred.

That's all I'm arguing here. Of course the cops screwed it badly with the brutalizing, and I'm not a 'fan' of that in any way.

Earlier, I said that if police pulled over a guy circling a grade school in a van for dirty license plates or something, it wouldn't bother me much. Would it bother you? Is it better if police just legally 'surveil' him and follow on his tail wherever he goes?

I've had police come at me with guns drawn for suspected B&E (checking on building sites after hours with a flashlight). I've had them pull me over on bull **** pretexts when they suspected the construction vehicle had a driver that had been drinking. I get that it 'looked bad', so I think they get a little latitude. Same here.

From pulling him out of the car on, it's a different (and inexcusable) story, although Owensby really should have said the magic words "I need a chair", rather than simple refusal to comply.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 08:37 AM   #126
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm not concerned with Owensby personally. My argument is that this is not an example of police harrassing and brutalizing a guy because he is black, which the story was originally framed as.
No, it's probably not racially motivated. It wouldn't be impossible, but according to CNN:

Quote:
Foward told CNN's Erin Burnett on Monday they are not calling the incident a case of racial profiling because the officer that pulled Owensby out of the car was Black.
Like I said, not impossible, but improbable.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...and while presumably still on probation, he is subject to free-air tests. To me, that is all consistent with a legit investigation, not racial hatred.
I can't find anything that says he's on probation. Per the Police Major:

Quote:
Johns said based on his past felony drug and weapons history coupled with their observation he had left the residence in question, the officers requested a narcotics Detection K-9 to conduct a "free-air sniff," when a dog smells around the outside of a vehicle.
That's it. Those two things. He left a house they were surveilling and he had priors. He's not on any form of probation that I can see. If he were they could have searched the car without giving Owensby any choice at all. Inside, outside, trunk, whatever. To me, this is harassing a guy just because he's been in trouble before.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
although Owensby really should have said the magic words "I need a chair", rather than simple refusal to comply.
The repeated screaming of "I'm a paraplegic" should have probably tipped him off. They were absolutely positive that he was doing something wrong. They were wrong, now they're going to be in a lawsuit with the NAACP.

As per the money, Owensby is claiming:

Quote:
Owensby said Sunday the money was his savings
A few things don't make sense to me. First:

Originally Posted by John, Police Major
Dayton Police Department policy requires the occupants of the vehicle to exit for their own safety and safety of the K-9 officer to perform this free-air sniff.
Why? How the **** is the person or the officer more safe with the person outside of the car? Secondly, the cop had just made the request for the K-9. There was no need at that specific time to get Owensby out of the car. They had to wait for the K-9. They could have left him and, as mentioned previously, called for an ambulance, let Owensby's friends\family arrive that he called, or called a supervisor. They chose the worst possible option.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:11 AM   #127
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, it's probably not racially motivated. It wouldn't be impossible, but according to CNN:

Like I said, not impossible, but improbable.
Agreed.

Quote:
I can't find anything that says he's on probation. Per the Police Major:

That's it. Those two things. He left a house they were surveilling and he had priors. He's not on any form of probation that I can see. If he were they could have searched the car without giving Owensby any choice at all. Inside, outside, trunk, whatever. To me, this is harassing a guy just because he's been in trouble before.
I was googling around to find out if Ohio police had any right to randomly force a drug sniff. Didn't sound copacetic. turns out, on certain drug felonies, you are subject to 'free-air sniffs' during a stop as part of probationary terms, for 5 years. Without knowing what and when exactly Owensby served, he could be right around the tail end of that. Hence, 'presumably'. If he wasn't, I'd assume that would be a big chunk of a harassment complaint.

Quote:
The repeated screaming of "I'm a paraplegic" should have probably tipped him off. They were absolutely positive that he was doing something wrong. They were wrong, now they're going to be in a lawsuit with the NAACP.
Yeah, but sometimes a slick guy will try to deceive cops. So the cops asked him how he got in if he can't get out. He said he had help. The officer offers help. He says nope. The critical words here were "I had help getting into my chair". Those words would have likely changed everything. I would hope, anyway.

Quote:
As per the money, Owensby is claiming:
His savings...in a bag on the floor. Sometimes there aren't enough eye-rolls.

I mean sure, conceptually possible. Not plausible though. He said his car was so full of kids being dropped off at school that morning that there was no room for his wheelchair. So were the kids stepping all over the open bag while getting out? I mean, a good strong breeze and he's out his savings. He couldn't even run after it blowing down the street. Not even getting into a possible carjack. Nah, not buying that.

Quote:
A few things don't make sense to me. First:

Why? How the **** is the person or the officer more safe with the person outside of the car? Secondly, the cop had just made the request for the K-9. There was no need at that specific time to get Owensby out of the car. They had to wait for the K-9. They could have left him and, as mentioned previously, called for an ambulance, let Owensby's friends\family arrive that he called, or called a supervisor. They chose the worst possible option.
Liability, probably, with the dog and all. If police search your car in any way, you do have to get out so as not to interfere.

They didn't call for the ambulance or a chair because Owensby didn't request it. He just flat refused. From the cop's POV, sounds more like bull **** than needed services. We know now that they were wrong, but come on: Owensby just refused and threatened lawsuits and called for witnesses. He could have simply said "I need a chair", and we would have never heard this story.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:15 AM   #128
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
.....
Why? How the **** is the person or the officer more safe with the person outside of the car? Secondly, the cop had just made the request for the K-9. There was no need at that specific time to get Owensby out of the car. They had to wait for the K-9. They could have left him and, as mentioned previously, called for an ambulance, let Owensby's friends\family arrive that he called, or called a supervisor. They chose the worst possible option.
Another unanswered question: Assume for the sake of argument that he had been completely cooperative: "Okay, officer, help me out of my car." What were they going to do with him? They didn't have a wheelchair or even a stool. Were they going to just dump him on the ground, as they ultimately did? Were they going to pick him up and carry him to their car? Both could well have risked injuring him. Why would a cop make that choice? This is another case of cops never getting past "Do what I say or else!"
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:29 AM   #129
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I was googling around to find out if Ohio police had any right to randomly force a drug sniff. Didn't sound copacetic. turns out, on certain drug felonies, you are subject to 'free-air sniffs' during a stop as part of probationary terms, for 5 years. Without knowing what and when exactly Owensby served, he could be right around the tail end of that. Hence, 'presumably'. If he wasn't, I'd assume that would be a big chunk of a harassment complaint.
That I don't know since I don't live in Ohio. In North Dakota I had no rights to anything until I was done on probation, but when I was done on probation all of my rights were restored (sans gun ownership, that came 10 years later). The cops could search me, my home, my car, whatever they wanted while I was on probation and I had no right to say no. Personally, I think the dog sniffing skit is complete and total ********. It's like a lie detector, even if the dog does nothing the cops can say it did. How the **** would anyone know any different?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, but sometimes a slick guy will try to deceive cops. So the cops asked him how he got in if he can't get out. He said he had help. The officer offers help. He says nope. The critical words here were "I had help getting into my chair". Those words would have likely changed everything. I would hope, anyway.
Possible. I mean the car was rigged for a paraplegic. They could have just looked in the car and seen that if he was making it up, he was going through extreme personal financial cost to commit to the story.

I don't know if this is the way Owensby feels, but I am extremely, EXTREMELY uncomfortable with people touching me. I don't know if there's a name for it, because germs don't bother me, it's just the act of someone putting their hands on me. It makes me extremely nervous, and I dislike it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
His savings...in a bag on the floor. Sometimes there aren't enough eye-rolls.

I mean sure, conceptually possible. Not plausible though. He said his car was so full of kids being dropped off at school that morning that there was no room for his wheelchair. So were the kids stepping all over the open bag while getting out? I mean, a good strong breeze and he's out his savings. He couldn't even run after it blowing down the street. Not even getting into a possible carjack. Nah, not buying that.
That's the thing, he's not selling it to anyone. He doesn't need to. There's absolutely nothing illegal about having $23k in a bag in your car. You can be suspicious, you can say it's not right, you can roll your eyes, you can call him a liar, you can do any of that you want. The fact remains he doesn't need to sell it to you because it's his right to have any amount of money he wants, anywhere he wants, as long as that "anywhere" belongs to him.

More than likely it was wrapped with a money band, and inside the bag so blowing away isn't much of a concern.

If he's not worried about kids stepping on it, then it's none of my business. It's his money, he can do whatever he wants with it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Liability, probably, with the dog and all. If police search your car in any way, you do have to get out so as not to interfere.
I thought about that same exact thing, but even that didn't make sense. If it's a fresh-air sniff, outside the car, then they aren't searching in the car. Wouldn't it be more safe to have the person remain in the car, with the doors closed, and the person in view? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They didn't call for the ambulance or a chair because Owensby didn't request it. He just flat refused. From the cop's POV, sounds more like bull **** than needed services. We know now that they were wrong, but come on: Owensby just refused and threatened lawsuits and called for witnesses. He could have simply said "I need a chair", and we would have never heard this story.
Maybe, or maybe the cops would have refused to call for a chair like they refused to call for a supervisor. We'll never know.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 12th October 2021 at 09:32 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:36 AM   #130
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That I don't know since I don't live in Ohio. In North Dakota I had no rights to anything until I was done on probation, but when I was done on probation all of my rights were restored (sans gun ownership, that came 10 years later). The cops could search me, my home, my car, whatever they wanted while I was on probation and I had no right to say no. Personally, I think the dog sniffing skit is complete and total ********. It's like a lie detector, even if the dog does nothing the cops can say it did. How the **** would anyone know any different?
......

A completely valid point. Cops are known to cue their dogs, sometimes even subconsciously.
Quote:
Seven years ago, a researcher named Lisa Lit published a study that she now calls "a real career-ender."

On the surface, the study tested the abilities of fourteen certified sniffer dogs to find hidden "targets." In reality, the dogs' human handlers were also under the magnifying glass. They were led to believe there were hidden target scents present, when in fact there were none. Nevertheless, the dogs "alerted" to the scents multiple times — especially in locations where researchers had indicated a scent was likely.
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/56388...dogs-that-bite
Quote:

The Chicago Tribune sifted through three years worth of cases in which law enforcement used dogs to sniff out drugs in cars in suburban Chicago. According to the analysis, officers found drugs or paraphernalia in only 44 percent of cases in which the dogs had alerted them.

When the driver was Latino, the dogs were right just just 27 percent of the time.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ten-than-right

Last edited by Bob001; 12th October 2021 at 09:48 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:50 AM   #131
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A completely valid point. Cops are known to cue their dogs, sometimes even subconsciously.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/56388...dogs-that-bite

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ten-than-right
I am not shocked in even the slightest bit. I don't understand how it's still a legit method of getting into someone's property. That level of inaccuracy would get me fired from my job.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:57 AM   #132
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I am not shocked in even the slightest bit. I don't understand how it's still a legit method of getting into someone's property. That level of inaccuracy would get me fired from my job.
Even flipping a coin might be right half the time.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 09:57 AM   #133
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That I don't know since I don't live in Ohio. In North Dakota I had no rights to anything until I was done on probation, but when I was done on probation all of my rights were restored (sans gun ownership, that came 10 years later). The cops could search me, my home, my car, whatever they wanted while I was on probation and I had no right to say no. Personally, I think the dog sniffing skit is complete and total ********. It's like a lie detector, even if the dog does nothing the cops can say it did. How the **** would anyone know any different?
Interesting sidebar: drug sniffing dogs are said to only have about a 50% accuracy rate. They probably should be removed from this kind of detail.

Quote:
Possible. I mean the car was rigged for a paraplegic. They could have just looked in the car and seen that if he was making it up, he was going through extreme personal financial cost to commit to the story.
A quick google says you can retrofit hand controls for under a grand. The linkage assembly visible looks pretty crude, so not exactly Audi factory installed.

https://www.google.com/search?client...ification+cost

Quote:
I don't know if this is the way Owensby feels, but I am extremely, EXTREMELY uncomfortable with people touching me. I don't know if there's a name for it, because germs don't bother me, it's just the act of someone putting their hands on me. It makes me extremely nervous, and I dislike it.
Yeah, I get that. But I kind of think a paraplegic has to get used to being handled multiple times every day. If he is only comfortable with a loved one helping him, that's another thing that should have been said to the cops: he needs someone who knows him or or is familiar with his specific condition to move him into his chair.

Quote:
That's the thing, he's not selling it to anyone. He doesn't need to. There's absolutely nothing illegal about having $23k in a bag in your car. You can be suspicious, you can say it's not right, you can roll your eyes, you can call him a liar, you can do any of that you want. The fact remains he doesn't need to sell it to you because it's his right to have any amount of money he wants, anywhere he wants, as long as that "anywhere" belongs to him.
Nothing illegal about it, agreed. It is fair to be suspicious of someone leaving a suspected drug house being surveilled with that kind of volume though? I think it's reasonable, but not a gavel-dropper.

Quote:
I thought about that same exact thing, but even that didn't make sense. If it's a fresh-air sniff, outside the car, then they aren't searching in the car. Wouldn't it be more safe to have the person remain in the car, with the doors closed, and the person in view? Just doesn't make sense to me.
Pure guess, but I'd say that the vehicle sniff is supposed to take the driver himself out of the equation, and focus on possible transporting. Like, if Owensby claimed he walked by some guys blowing a bone, which left strong residual scent on his clothes.

Quote:
Maybe, or maybe the cops would have refused to call for a chair like they refused to call for a supervisor. We'll never know.
QFT. I'd be willing to bet that the cops were going to be thugs no matter what. You have to be a special kind of cruel to drag any non-violent person out of the car by the hair.

eta: re: drug puppy accuracy: ninja'd by Bob001 while typing
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 12th October 2021 at 10:05 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 10:09 AM   #134
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A quick google says you can retrofit hand controls for under a grand. The linkage assembly visible looks pretty crude, so not exactly Audi factory installed.

https://www.google.com/search?client...ification+cost
I'd call a grand a decent chunk of change just so that he could, at some unknown point in the future, claim to be a paraplegic that doesn't want to get out of his car.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I get that. But I kind of think a paraplegic has to get used to being handled multiple times every day. If he is only comfortable with a loved one helping him, that's another thing that should have been said to the cops: he needs someone who knows him or or is familiar with his specific condition to move him into his chair.
Right, I also don't mind when my wife hugs me, or rubs my back, or rubs my...feet; However, random_cop_01? Different story, but point taken. Personally, I don't think this cop had any interest in any way to listen to Owensby's story. The cop literally told him, "You're getting out of this car, you have two options. Either you get out or I drag you out." I don't see him getting overly sympathetic had Owensby decided to explain his life story.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nothing illegal about it, agreed. It is fair to be suspicious of someone leaving a suspected drug house being surveilled with that kind of volume though? I think it's reasonable, but not a gavel-dropper.
Had they known he had the money? Sure. They didn't though. They had no idea what was in the car, hence the drug sniffing dog and desire to search it. Again, they had two reasons that they used to condone their suspicions. He left a surveilled house and he had priors. Anything outside of that is post hoc.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pure guess, but I'd say that the vehicle sniff is supposed to take the driver himself out of the equation, and focus on possible transporting. Like, if Owensby claimed he walked by some guys blowing a bone, which left strong residual scent on his clothes.
That absolutely could be true, I don't know.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 12th October 2021 at 10:31 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 10:27 AM   #135
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'd call a grand a decent chunk of change just so that he could, at some unknown point in the future, claim to be a paraplegic that doesn't want to get out of his car.
True enough, assuming the cop recognized it for what it was, and not some retrofit car toy. If it's clumsy looking enough, and if the officer is not well versed in such mechanisms, it's at least a possibility.

Quote:
Right, I also don't mind when my wife hugs me, or rubs my back, or rubs my...feet; However, random_cop_01? Different story, but point taken. Personally, I don't think this cop had any interest in any way to listen to this Owensby's story. The cop literally told him, "You're getting out of this car, you have two options. Either you get out or I drag you out." I don't see him getting overly sympathetic had Owensby decided to explain his life story.
Again, pure speculation, but I'd venture that the cop already pegged him as a liar due to the flat refusal instead of request for proper assistance. Not really an excuse though; cops need to be more professional and detached than that.

Quote:
Had they known he had the money? Sure. They didn't though. They had no idea what was in the car, hence the drug sniffing dog and desire to search it. Again, they had two reasons that they used to condone their suspicions. He left a surveilled house and he had priors. Anything outside of that is post hoc.
Still cruising on the speculation train here: on the long version of the stop, a cop comes up to each window. The cop on the passenger side tells Owensby to lower the glass, while he prepares for the electronic tint test (the whole procedure is on the long video). He would literally have been looking straight down at the bag, which we can see on the other view is open at the top, handles dangling. He would have been staring straight at over $22K about two feet from his eyes, 'tinting', as it were, the rest of their interaction.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 10:43 AM   #136
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,241
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
......
Still cruising on the speculation train here: on the long version of the stop, a cop comes up to each window. The cop on the passenger side tells Owensby to lower the glass, while he prepares for the electronic tint test (the whole procedure is on the long video). He would literally have been looking straight down at the bag, which we can see on the other view is open at the top, handles dangling. He would have been staring straight at over $22K about two feet from his eyes, 'tinting', as it were, the rest of their interaction.
Only if the bag -- and we don't know how big it is -- was open. If it was closed it could just as easily have been carrying gym clothes or lunch.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 10:54 AM   #137
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Only if the bag -- and we don't know how big it is -- was open. If it was closed it could just as easily have been carrying gym clothes or lunch.
We can see one, and only one, bag on the passenger floorboard in the video, where the cops claim they found the loot. It's a Target single use throwaway bag, with the handles up and untied, open at the top.

It's of course entirely possible a t-shirt or something was placed on top, concealing the contents.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 11:50 AM   #138
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,885
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
We can see one, and only one, bag on the passenger floorboard in the video, where the cops claim they found the loot. It's a Target single use throwaway bag, with the handles up and untied, open at the top.
That's how I usually carry my money around.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 11:59 AM   #139
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
That's how I usually carry my money around.
Its very likely he just picked up a new car seat at Target, along with some socks and detergent, then paid with a $23,000 dollar bill and tossed the change in the bag. Haven't we all?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:19 PM   #140
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Its very likely he just picked up a new car seat at Target, along with some socks and detergent, then paid with a $23,000 dollar bill and tossed the change in the bag. Haven't we all?
Or, if it was his savings, he could have been on his way to deposit it. He could have just withdrawn it. He could be on his way to make a large purchase. It could be none of anyone's ******* business lol.

The money means exactly nothing, and I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up about it. Aren't you some form of contractor? You've never transported money around? Christ, I'm an I.T. guy and I've transported large amounts of money around for all sorts of reasons. This is the definition of confirmation bias.

The cops didn't know he had the money. You've made up some situations where they could have found out, but they had no idea. You guys, completely after the fact, are implying that he's obviously doing something wrong because of this money. Yet there's no evidence of anything, but you guys can't drop it. However, since he has a criminal history that's enough for you guys. He has to be guilty, after all, he has done illegal stuff in the past!

It's so ******* random, I just don't get it.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 12th October 2021 at 12:21 PM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:40 PM   #141
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
The money was "his savings". Lmao.

More than solid enough for the ISF investigators. I'm still trying to figure out why "racism" is being attached to this? Makes for a better story, and a bigger lawsuit, I guess. Dude will probably need to get a couple more target bags after the settlement. "Businessman", indeed.

Also, now I've learned how to handle cops. Demand a while shirt, tell them I'm not going to comply, and call local family to bring cameras.
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:43 PM   #142
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,885
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Or, if it was his savings, he could have been on his way to deposit it. He could have just withdrawn it. He could be on his way to make a large purchase. It could be none of anyone's ******* business lol.

The money means exactly nothing, and I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up about it. Aren't you some form of contractor? You've never transported money around? Christ, I'm an I.T. guy and I've transported large amounts of money around for all sorts of reasons. This is the definition of confirmation bias.

The cops didn't know he had the money. You've made up some situations where they could have found out, but they had no idea. You guys, completely after the fact, are implying that he's obviously doing something wrong because of this money. Yet there's no evidence of anything, but you guys can't drop it. However, since he has a criminal history that's enough for you guys. He has to be guilty, after all, he has done illegal stuff in the past!

It's so ******* random, I just don't get it.
I haven't really been following the thread (or updates on the incident) since I last posted a few pages back. I just thought it was funny to be carrying around $22k in cash in a Target bag. Not funny as in suspicious, but funny as in sort of comical.

Although, now that I think of it, it probably is a bit suspicious as well. I've been a contractor, I've been an I.T. guy, I've saved up lots of money, and I've made large purchases. But never throughout all of that have I transported around $20K+ in cash. I have to struggle to think of a scenario where it made sense. Do people save up $20K in cash before making a deposit these days? Do they make $20K purchases in cash? The only time I carried around anywhere near that amount of money in cash form is when I was buying/selling drugs.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:44 PM   #143
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Or, if it was his savings, he could have been on his way to deposit it. He could have just withdrawn it. He could be on his way to make a large purchase. It could be none of anyone's ******* business lol.

The money means exactly nothing, and I'm not sure why you guys are so hung up about it. Aren't you some form of contractor? You've never transported money around? Christ, I'm an I.T. guy and I've transported large amounts of money around for all sorts of reasons. This is the definition of confirmation bias.

The cops didn't know he had the money. You've made up some situations where they could have found out, but they had no idea. You guys, completely after the fact, are implying that he's obviously doing something wrong because of this money. Yet there's no evidence of anything, but you guys can't drop it. However, since he has a criminal history that's enough for you guys. He has to be guilty, after all, he has done illegal stuff in the past!

It's so ******* random, I just don't get it.
Its not the money. Its that each and every detail of the story points to the drug trade. Individuallly, all explainable via some other premise. Buy an actual disposable bag full of tens of thousands in cash? Speaking as a former...ahem...low-end tradesman...myself, that means only one thing. We used to use paper grocery bags back in the day, or backpacks with junk on top to survive a quick once-over.

As a current non-pharmaceutical tradesman, yes, i do some business in cash, although for tax reasons, never that much. And I keep a lid on it, because losing it could be life altering.

My beach town does a lot of cash-only business. On deposit day, vendors are heading to the bank with that kind of loot on the regular. Never, ever, ever in a throwaway store bag like the bathroom garbage. Always reasonably secure. For obvious reasons.

Most importantly, again, is that it's all of it together that makes the eyes squint. The sack o' greenbacks is the most absurd, followed quickly by Owensby referring to himself as a "businessman". That's straight out of a bad movie.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:54 PM   #144
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Two replies, neither say anything more than "because this is how I did things when I was a drug dealer. then that's the only explanation that makes sense here."

Great work. We can seal the deal here.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 12:56 PM   #145
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Two replies, neither say anything more than "because this is how I did things when I was a drug dealer. then that's the only explanation that makes sense here."

Great work. We can seal the deal here.
No, it was that last paragraph right above your post. The "all of it together, but the money part was just extra stupid" one.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:00 PM   #146
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I haven't really been following the thread (or updates on the incident) since I last posted a few pages back. I just thought it was funny to be carrying around $22k in cash in a Target bag. Not funny as in suspicious, but funny as in sort of comical.

Although, now that I think of it, it probably is a bit suspicious as well. I've been a contractor, I've been an I.T. guy, I've saved up lots of money, and I've made large purchases. But never throughout all of that have I transported around $20K+ in cash. I have to struggle to think of a scenario where it made sense. Do people save up $20K in cash before making a deposit these days? Do they make $20K purchases in cash? The only time I carried around anywhere near that amount of money in cash form is when I was buying/selling drugs.
The funniest part is that you are rounding off to $20k, like the other $2,450 is chump change you might find in the seat cushions. I think a lot of posters here are unrealistic about what that volume handled so casually usually means.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:11 PM   #147
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,885
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Two replies, neither say anything more than "because this is how I did things when I was a drug dealer.
I was replying to a post in which you said nothing more than 'because that's the way you did things as an I.T. guy".

Speaking of which, you said as an IT guy you've transported large amounts of money around for all sorts of reasons. I was in IT for over 20 years, and neither me nor any of my coworkers or employees ever once transported large amounts of money around. What are these "all sorts of reasons" you're speaking about?
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:19 PM   #148
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I was replying to a post in which you said nothing more than 'because that's the way you did things as an I.T. guy".
That's not what I said at all, but ok. I said, as an IT guy I've carried large amounts of cash, and it's not even in my job description. Thermal is a contractor. Our finance guy has driven that much money multiple times at my job where we do automation.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Speaking of which, you said as an IT guy you've transported large amounts of money around for all sorts of reasons. I was in IT for over 20 years, and neither me nor any of my coworkers or employees ever once transported large amounts of money around. What are these "all sorts of reasons" you're speaking about?
Not that it's any of your business, but one such situation was a 19 PC, 1 server install where I got paid with a check. I took it to the bank because I wanted to make sure it was good. I got the cash, drove it to our bank, deposited it. I don't remember exactly how much it was, but it was in the $15kish range. We do that a lot here because we take a lot of those payments, and would rather not wait for a check to clear.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:22 PM   #149
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, it was that last paragraph right above your post. The "all of it together, but the money part was just extra stupid" one.
Yes, you've claimed the "all of it together" thing multiple times; however, I've seen Bob001, myself, and others give completely reasonable explanations for everything, including links to news stories. You're making the link between all of those because...you want to, for some reason.

It's funny because he's not being charged with anything, but you guys still need him to be guilty based on your circumstantial nonsense. I don't get why, but I'm sure there's a totally reasonable explanation.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:24 PM   #150
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's not what I said at all, but ok. I said, as an IT guy I've carried large amounts of cash, and it's not even in my job description. Thermal is a contractor. Our finance guy has driven that much money multiple times at my job where we do automation.



Not that it's any of your business, but one such situation was a 19 PC, 1 server install where I got paid with a check. I took it to the bank because I wanted to make sure it was good. I got the cash, drove it to our bank, deposited it. I don't remember exactly how much it was, but it was in the $15kish range. We do that a lot here because we take a lot of those payments, and would rather not wait for a check to clear.
Just out of curiosity: did you toss it in a single use bag you found under the seat and throw it on the floor? Or were you more careful with it because it was a life changing amount of jingle?

You know what kind of...ahem...businessman treats it more casually because it is not really life altering?
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:33 PM   #151
NakedHostility
Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: High in the Middle, and Round on Both Ends
Posts: 33
Even if you don't believe in God we would all agree God just took a giant piss on this person, no?
NakedHostility is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:35 PM   #152
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yes, you've claimed the "all of it together" thing multiple times; however, I've seen Bob001, myself, and others give completely reasonable explanations for everything, including links to news stories. You're making the link between all of those because...you want to, for some reason.

It's funny because he's not being charged with anything, but you guys still need him to be guilty based on your circumstantial nonsense. I don't get why, but I'm sure there's a totally reasonable explanation.
Oh yeah, and I can spit out reasonable explanations by the dozen. More creative and complex ones, too. They all require unevidenced and indeed unclaimed additional facts not in evidence.

The facts in evidence pointy unflinchingly to active dealing. Hopefully, we'll get more details and clear up some question marks. We are all speculating like hell.

Thus far though: Owensby himself says he carries his savings in a throwaway bag on the floor of his car. You know, how "businessmen" do. Not a peep about any other wild scenario regarding what that was all about. So let's stay with his claims:

He keeps his savings in a throwaway bag on the floor of his Audi. While he takes his six kids to school with no way out of the car and no wheelchair. With a toddler unrestrained in the back seat for hours. When he feels he has to pick up cable boxes that he can't get out of the car to grab. At a house under surveillance by the Narcotics squad. That he owns. But doesn't live at.

You're right. Totally off the wall to think anything shady is going on here.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:37 PM   #153
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by NakedHostility View Post
Even if you don't believe in God we would all agree God just took a giant piss on this person, no?
God: "...and **** you in particular."

Businessman: "Nope. Not happening, and I'll sue your ass if you try".
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:38 PM   #154
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just out of curiosity: did you toss it in a single use bag you found under the seat and throw it on the floor? Or were you more careful with it because it was a life changing amount of jingle?
My circumstances weren't the same as his, so I'm not sure what relevance it makes. This is all a red herring anyway. It. Makes. No. Difference. The money was not a reason for the stop. The money was not a reason to have the car sniffed. The money was not a reason to pull the man out of the car.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You know what kind of...ahem...businessman treats it more casually because it is not really life altering?
So you're now implying that a ******* paraplegic doesn't consider $23k a "life altering" amount of money? Somehow that is evidence he's a drug dealer? Get the **** out of here. Not even you can believe something like that completely ridiculous.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:48 PM   #155
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,885
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just out of curiosity: did you toss it in a single use bag you found under the seat and throw it on the floor? Or were you more careful with it because it was a life changing amount of jingle?

You know what kind of...ahem...businessman treats it more casually because it is not really life altering?
I'm ignoring the fact that Owensby had prior drug conviction(s) and trying to come up with alternative explanations to why he had that much cash on him. I can't say I'm having much luck.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:48 PM   #156
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh yeah, and I can spit out reasonable explanations by the dozen. More creative and complex ones, too. They all require unevidenced and indeed unclaimed additional facts not in evidence.
Why should that bother you? There's exactly **** all saying he's a drug dealer too, and every attempt the cops have tried to make him look like one has failed. That hasn't slowed you down in the slightest

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The facts in evidence pointy unflinchingly to active dealing. Hopefully, we'll get more details and clear up some question marks. We are all speculating like hell.
Sure, outside of the complete and total lack of evidence that he was actively dealing, you've nailed it. Again, great work. Open and shut case, lets sprinkle some crack on Owensby and call it a day, eh?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thus far though: Owensby himself says he carries his savings in a throwaway bag on the floor of his car. You know, how "businessmen" do. Not a peep about any other wild scenario regarding what that was all about.
Probably because, as I've mentioned, it's really none of your business. There's nothing wrong or illegal about it so he has absolutely no reason to explain it to anyone.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So let's stay with his claims:

He keeps his savings in a throwaway bag on the floor of his Audi.
Keep saying it, maybe it'll mean somethig.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
While he takes his six kids to school with no way out of the car and no wheelchair.
If he wasn't planning on getting out, why would he need a wheelchair or a method to get out of his car? He obviously had people at home that would help him in and out, but keep going. You're absolutely nailing it so far.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
With a toddler unrestrained in the back seat for hours.
For hours? That's....you sure about that?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When he feels he has to pick up cable boxes that he can't get out of the car to grab. At a house under surveillance by the Narcotics squad. That he owns. But doesn't live at.
Right, what's odd about that? How would he know the house is under surveillance? Landlords don't generally live in the houses they rent out. In fact, that supports the theory that he had no idea it was under surveillance, he doesn't ******* live there.

If he owns the house and people were moving out then why in God's name wouldn't he go get the cable boxes to return them? Do people not run stuff out to you when your in your car in your world?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're right. Totally off the wall to think anything shady is going on here.
It's not totally off the wall to think anything is shady going on, there's just no actual evidence anything shady is going on. You're adding your own assumptions into it and saying, "This is shady. It's got to be shady." Why? Because.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 12th October 2021 at 01:51 PM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:49 PM   #157
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
I'm just disappointed that the money wasn't from collecting rent from his real estate empire, like Bob suggested. After all, it was the 29th of the month.

I'm still hoping the other theory proves true, that he was carrying the money on his way to buy one those pricey flying wheelchairs.
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:49 PM   #158
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm ignoring the fact that Owensby had prior drug conviction(s) and trying to come up with alternative explanations to why he had that much cash on him. I can't say I'm having much luck.
Probably because you don't actually want to? Even if you can't, what does that mean? There's still no evidence at all that Owensby has done anything wrong. I'm still at a loss as to why it matters to you guys so much.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:50 PM   #159
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,169
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
My circumstances weren't the same as his, so I'm not sure what relevance it makes. This is all a red herring anyway. It. Makes. No. Difference. The money was not a reason for the stop. The money was not a reason to have the car sniffed. The money was not a reason to pull the man out of the car.
It might have been, if the passenger side cop looked down and saw it. It was that same cop who then hustled over to the drivers side and ripped him out. Not known, of course, but plausible? I think so.

Quote:
So you're now implying that a ******* paraplegic doesn't consider $23k a "life altering" amount of money? Somehow that is evidence he's a drug dealer? Get the **** out of here. Not even you can believe something like that completely ridiculous.
No, I'm implying what I said. A sucessful dealer is more casual about an amount that large. He burns through it on the regular.

But seriously: we've speculated to death, and are repeating. Imma wait for something new. .
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2021, 01:52 PM   #160
Warp12
Master Poster
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Probably because you don't actually want to? Even if you can't, what does that mean? There's still no evidence at all that Owensby has done anything wrong. I'm still at a loss as to why it matters to you guys so much.
Where is the evidence this was a racially motivated event?
__________________
“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.” - Confucius
Warp12 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.