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Old 11th October 2021, 07:22 AM   #1
shemp
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Woman arrested after shooting alleged shoplifter at Circle K in north Phoenix

So some guy shoplifts a few dollars worth of stuff from a convenience store and makes a run for it. You're a bystander, what do you do about it? Why, you shoot him, of course!

Quote:
PHOENIX - A woman has been arrested for assault after she shot a man who was reportedly shoplifting from a Circle K near 35th Avenue and Dunlap, Phoenix police said.

The shooting happened on Oct. 9 at around 3:15 p.m. after a woman, identified as 41-year-old Miriam Shekhmoos, allegedly saw the man stealing merchandise from the convenience store.

When Shekhmoos tried to stop him, he tried to push past her to run away, so she shot him, police said.

The shooting victim was not at the Circle K by the time police arrived, but he was later found nearby and he was hospitalized with serious injuries.

Shekhmoos was booked into Maricopa County jail and faces an aggravated assault charge.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
So some guy shoplifts a few dollars worth of stuff from a convenience store and makes a run for it. You're a bystander, what do you do about it? Why, you shoot him, of course!
That seems like kind of an odd charge for shooting someone. I'm assuming the problem is that she shot him in the back while he was running away?
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:34 AM   #3
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That seems like kind of an odd charge for shooting someone. I'm assuming the problem is that she shot him in the back while he was running away?
Why do you think it's wrong? Aggravated assault is assaulting someone with a deadly weapon, at least in AZ.

ETA: It's not just that BTW, there are other forms of aggravated assault.

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Old 11th October 2021, 07:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why do you think it's wrong? Aggravated assault is assaulting someone with a deadly weapon, at least in AZ.

ETA: It's not just that BTW, there are other forms of aggravated assault.
It might appear to some of us that shooting someone is attempted murder.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:51 AM   #5
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Then what would aggravated assault be??
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:18 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why do you think it's wrong? Aggravated assault is assaulting someone with a deadly weapon, at least in AZ.

ETA: It's not just that BTW, there are other forms of aggravated assault.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might appear to some of us that shooting someone is attempted murder.
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Then what would aggravated assault be??
I don't know what it is as I'm not familiar with AZ law, but I was thinking along the same lines as Bob001. She obviously wasn't defending herself, she's not a LEO, and it wasn't her store. She tried to kill a man for stealing something that meant absolutely **** all to her. I would call that attempted murder, but maybe AZ doesn't have that charge? I don't know. They could have just charged her with that to get her in jail, and intend to escalate it before it gets to trial.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Then what would aggravated assault be??
A physical attack or threat of one that is not necessarily intended to result in the victim's death.
https://legaldictionary.net/aggravated-assault/

I would argue that shooting someone is always intended to kill him.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Then what would aggravated assault be??
An intent to harm?
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:28 AM   #9
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A physical attack or threat of one that is not necessarily intended to result in the victim's death.
https://legaldictionary.net/aggravated-assault/

I would argue that shooting someone is always intended to kill him.
You're correct that the difference is intent to kill. But aggravated assault includes doing bodily harm with a deadly weapon. So the law doesn't agree that shooting is always an attempt to kill.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't know what it is as I'm not familiar with AZ law, but I was thinking along the same lines as Bob001. She obviously wasn't defending herself, she's not a LEO, and it wasn't her store. She tried to kill a man for stealing something that meant absolutely **** all to her. I would call that attempted murder, but maybe AZ doesn't have that charge? I don't know. They could have just charged her with that to get her in jail, and intend to escalate it before it gets to trial.
AZ has attempted murder.

Not sure how it's obvious she wasn't defending herself or at least think she wa. Text of the article says he pushed past her. Not sure if his intent was clear at that time.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:36 AM   #11
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Well, I hope he learned his lesson. Douche.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:38 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You're correct that the difference is intent to kill. But aggravated assault includes doing bodily harm with a deadly weapon. So the law doesn't agree that shooting is always an attempt to kill.
Any weapon -- a knife, a club, a wrench, a heavy vase, a 2x4 -- is potentially deadly. You can even shove somebody and they can hit their head and die. A firearm is nothing but deadly. It has no other function except to be deadly. Using a firearm is always intent to kill.

A question of premeditation might come into play, but that would be down the road during the prosecution.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:43 AM   #13
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Just to touch on the obvious defense: the article says she was shoved by the shoplifter. She's going to say she didn't care about the theft, but that he was violently assaulting her, right?
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:47 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Any weapon -- a knife, a club, a wrench, a heavy vase, a 2x4 -- is potentially deadly. You can even shove somebody and they can hit their head and die. A firearm is nothing but deadly. It has no other function except to be deadly. Using a firearm is always intent to kill..
OK. So write to your legislator. I was just answering a question about the law.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I hope he learned his lesson. Douche.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Which lesson?

Be better at concealing what he stole?
Take more expensive stuff so the risk was worth it?
Attack bystanders first just in case they try to kill you?
Work in teams so you can pass off what you stole?
Armed robbery is a better option because then you can murder anybody else that has a gun before they can murder you?
Wear a bullet proof vest next time?

There is no moral lesson from what happened here other that the use of deadly force is not a right for innocent bystanders. One person here is likely not very smart and the other is both violent and not very smart.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just to touch on the obvious defense: the article says she was shoved by the shoplifter. She's going to say she didn't care about the theft, but that he was violently assaulting her, right?
Gonna be a moot point if she shot him in the back while he was fleeing.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:13 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Text of the article says he pushed past her.
Not quite. The text of the article says that unidentified police sources say that's what happened. Did the reporter view the security footage themselves? No. Did they interview eyewitnesses to report this claim? No. Did they interview the arresting officer? Unlikely. This is likely a report about an unidentified police spokesperson providing a justification for why the police did what they did.

It may well be that it all went down exactly the way the police say it went down. But I think it's too early for us to assume that's the case. Surely by now we all know better than to take police self-justification at face value.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:21 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I hope he learned his lesson. Douche.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
I abhor shoplifters, i've worked in retail for a couple decades.
Ive even brandished knives at children who were stealing.


Your attitude is why the US is such a ******** country.

until one is fired upon, using a gun is the most craven and cowardly action a pathetic excuse for a human can possibly take.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:21 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Not sure how it's obvious she wasn't defending herself or at least think she wa. Text of the article says he pushed past her. Not sure if his intent was clear at that time.
If he's past her then he isn't assaulting her. Their interaction is over, and she didn't shoot him in the store, from what I can gather. He was fleeing, as stated in the article.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I hope he learned his lesson. Douche.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
OooOOO, touch a sore spot buddy? I hope he learned a lesson too, that after this he should get a lawyer to sue this woman into poverty for life. I'm going to laugh gleefully when it happens too.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just to touch on the obvious defense: the article says she was shoved by the shoplifter. She's going to say she didn't care about the theft, but that he was violently assaulting her, right?
As mentioned, their interaction was over with and the "assault" to her had already been done. She suffered no physical damage, and shooting someone isn't a reasonable reaction to being brushed aside as someone is moving past you, with no intent to interact with you.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 11th October 2021 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not quite. The text of the article says that unidentified police sources say that's what happened. Did the reporter view the security footage themselves? No. Did they interview eyewitnesses to report this claim? No. Did they interview the arresting officer? Unlikely. This is likely a report about an unidentified police spokesperson providing a justification for why the police did what they did.

It may well be that it all went down exactly the way the police say it went down. But I think it's too early for us to assume that's the case. Surely by now we all know better than to take police self-justification at face value.
Still makes her a piece of sub-human garbage.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Gonna be a moot point if she shot him in the back while he was fleeing.
The article says he "tried to push past her". Nothing about having actually completed it and been on his way with his back to her. Based on the wording, isn't it just as likely, if not more so, that they were still squared off?
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just to touch on the obvious defense: the article says she was shoved by the shoplifter. She's going to say she didn't care about the theft, but that he was violently assaulting her, right?
Wouldn't that defense fall if she was actively trying to stop him? She kind of put herself in potential harms way.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The article says he "tried to push past her". Nothing about having actually completed it and been on his way with his back to her. Based on the wording, isn't it just as likely, if not more so, that they were still squared off?
Well, you've been aces at assuming stuff in other threads. No reason why you shouldn't continue to do so here. The man wasn't found in the store, he left and was found in a nearby area. You think they squared off, and she shot him face to face, but then had no issues with him leaving? Sure, that seems logical I guess. Then again, me and my two neurons and all, I probably won't be able to figure it out.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:38 AM   #24
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It doesn't matter where she shot him, she shouldn't have shot him at all!

It wasn't her property that was stolen, and convenience stores (and any other businesses) specifically tell their employees not to intervene in a situation like this. And her safety wasn't an issue until she wanted to play vigilante, and she deliberately got in his way to try to stop him. Then when he pushed past her, she illegally shot him
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:42 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Well, you've been aces at assuming stuff in other threads. No reason why you shouldn't continue to do so here. The man wasn't found in the store, he left and was found in a nearby area. You think they squared off, and she shot him face to face, but then had no issues with him leaving? Sure, that seems logical I guess. Then again, me and my two neurons and all, I probably won't be able to figure it out.
And who's doing the assuming here, princess? You just added a ton of detail not reported. The article says:

The shoplifter tried to push past her, so she shot him.

None of your made-up horse **** about it having been over or anything else. And maybe you've been watching too many movies, but people usually don't drop to the ground immediately, even when critically shot. Who knows where she hit him at that range? Arm? Shoulder? Hell, he could have taken a shot point blank in the lungs and run a ways before collapsing.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And who's doing the assuming here, princess? You just added a ton of detail not reported.
I didn't add a damn thing. I asked a question. Can you specifically tell me what I "added" that hasn't been reported?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The article says:

The shoplifter tried to push past her, so she shot him.
...ok, and?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
None of your made-up horse **** about it having been over or anything else.
If I made it up, and he didn't move past her, then how in the ever living hell was he found anywhere else but in front of her?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And maybe you've been watching too many movies, but people usually don't drop to the ground immediately, even when critically shot.
Awesome, never implied anything different. I was the one that said he kept moving afterwards. You might recognize that from...every post I've made.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Who knows where she hit him at that range?
I don't care.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Arm?
I don't care.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Shoulder?
I don't care.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hell, he could have taken a shot point blank in the lungs and run a ways before collapsing.
Which would have involved him moving past her without her being the victim of any physical damage in any way, shape or form. She never even claimed to be hurt, at least that we can tell. I'm not sure what you're accusing me of when you say I'm making **** up.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:03 AM   #27
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Quote:
When the accused shoplifter brushed past her while trying to escape, she shot him, police told KNXV. The man ran away but was later hospitalized with “serious” injuries.
Quote:
The woman...told police the man pushed past her and began to run away.

Shekhmoos then shot the man, police said.

The man left the area but was eventually located and taken to a hospital with serious injuries.
Quote:
Shekhmoos reportedly told police the man pushed past her and started to run. That’s when she allegedly shot him.
I can't actually find anything that says the victim was in front of, or even beside her, when she started firing. Everything I can possibly find says the victim was past her and starting to run.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:09 AM   #28
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I have a hard time getting a full emotional grasp on situations like this*

I've always admitted that I bristle strongly at the idea of a "passive" bystander. I mean Spiderman letting the robber just walk past is how Uncle Ben died, so to speak. I never get fully onboard with any moral system where someone is in the wrong for seeing a wrong and trying to stop it. And yes I see "Well just get out of the way and let the authorities handle it" as being passive.

But on the other hand I don't think shooting someone is a valid response to this. It is a response out of sync with the threat.

On the other other hand I don't what the third option is supposed to be exactly on any practical level.

I'm sorry I don't have a pithy, one sentence exact statement as to whether I think this is good or bad, I just don't.

*As presented in the article, reserving the right to adjust as details/revisions/etc are added.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:20 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Why, you shoot him, of course!
If it had been a bloke doing the shooting, and given the location I'd be expecting SC to be a poster down for a while.

USA! USA! USA! Where mentally ill people carry guns and won't hesitate to use them.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:26 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
On the other other hand I don't what the third option is supposed to be exactly on any practical level.
Call the police? Let the store handle it using their protocols put in place by the owners\management?

They have security cameras (I'd assume, almost every store does in today's age), they could turn over the footage to the police. Unless of course the true fear is that the man would get away with it. Then physical interaction is the only possible way.

The story leaves a lot of holes to be filled. Did she tell him she was going to shoot and he still ran? Did she try anything else other than shoot? It says he pushed past her, but I don't know what that entails.

There are more options available than just shooting someone over a petty crime that wouldn't even result in more than an evening in jail and a couple hundred dollar fine. Now she's probably going to spend a significant period of time in jail, and, as I mentioned, is probably going to be looking down the barrel of a lawsuit.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:27 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The article says he "tried to push past her". Nothing about having actually completed it and been on his way with his back to her. Based on the wording, isn't it just as likely, if not more so, that they were still squared off?
Before I respond further, are you saying that makes it OK?
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If it had been a bloke doing the shooting, and given the location I'd be expecting SC to be a poster down for a while.

USA! USA! USA! Where mentally ill people carry guns and won't hesitate to use them.
LIVE FREE AND KILL!!!
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Before I respond further, are you saying that makes it OK?
No way. I'd prefer that no one was able to legally carry, much less shoot, in all but the most dire circumstances. Just a little fascinated with how differently words are interpreted by different people.

To me, "he tried to push past her" does not at all mean the assault was in the past tense, or even that he succeeded in pushing past. Sounds more to me like he shoved her and she didn't give ground. It's my argument on almost every contentious thread: how much baggage are readers hanging on to the story?
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:39 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Call the police? Let the store handle it using their protocols put in place by the owners\management?
As I said I count "Step aside and let someone else handle it" as being passive.

I don't want to go too deep down an esoteric hole only thematically related to this one event, but like I said I have trouble slotting "Stand aside and do nothing" into my set of standards as a pure positive.

Again I'm only saying that at a base level I see "Do nothing" when presented with "a wrong" as a negative.

Again I want to stress I see the outcome describe in the OP as wrong. You don't shoot someone fleeing from misdemeanor.

I'm just saying a core part of me sees "Stand by and do nothing, hoping someone else will do something about later" as wrong and I also don't know what possible 3rd option is supposed to go on the table.

People do bad things because they know the situations in which they will usually get away with it. That's why I have such an issue with a passive populace, one that dumps all its responsibilities for maintaining law and order on a few people.

And yes I know how much of a razors edge that is to mob justice and vigilante violence. As I've stated this is something of a moral paradox I will readily admit I have found myself in.

Surely most people have found themselves in some version of the "Well I don't feel comfortable doing nothing, but everything that could be done is wrong as well" problem.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:47 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To me, "he tried to push past her" does not at all mean the assault was in the past tense, or even that he succeeded in pushing past. Sounds more to me like he shoved her and she didn't give ground. It's my argument on almost every contentious thread: how much baggage are readers hanging on to the story?
Nothing on the 3+ sources I quoted saying that he wasn't "trying to push past her" but that he already had? Those just...don't exist because they're inconvenient? Are you cherry picking your information now? It's quoting the police in the quotes I listed. Can you tell me who your quote of "he tried to push past her" is quoting? Just kidding, you won't. How would you then be able to hold your contrarian-above-all-else position?

ETA: I see the initial post does say it is quoting police. So either that 1 source has the quote wrong, none of the sources are right, or the police are wrong.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As I said I count "Step aside and let someone else handle it" as being passive.
But...what I described wouldn't be passively "step(ping) aside and let(ting) someone else handle it", per se.

It would be actively assisting in an investigation into someone who allegedly broke the law.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:53 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Nothing on the 3+ sources I quoted saying that he wasn't "trying to push past her" but that he already had? Those just...don't exist because they're inconvenient? Are you cherry picking your information now? It's quoting the police in the quotes I listed. Can you tell me who your quote of "he tried to push past her" is quoting? Just kidding, you won't. How would you then be able to hold your contrarian-above-all-else position?
Slowly and clearly: shemp asked about a post that was made when only one source was up: the OP article, that says he tried to push past her. I answered shemps question about that post, and specifically regarding the wording, and why. I was not addressing your meta butthurt position.
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:00 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
A question of premeditation might come into play, but that would be down the road during the prosecution.
No, they make some kind of call on that when you are first charged. They can change their mind later but they've obviously made a call on that now.
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm just saying a core part of me sees "Stand by and do nothing, hoping someone else will do something about later" as wrong and I also don't know what possible 3rd option is supposed to go on the table.
I don't think this scenario needs a third option. "Stand by and do nothing" is already sufficient. The business has already considered the challenge of loss prevention. They've considered the business impact, the legal liability, the insurance liability, the health and safety of their staff, the public relations risks, all of that. If they've decided that letting it go is the optimal strategy, you'd have to be real Karen to decide otherwise and enforce a different policy in their place of business. Obviously they're not standing by and hoping someone else will step in. They're hoping nobody else will step in.

Likewise, when it's your business and your stuff, you probably shouldn't be standing by and hoping someone else steps in. You want someone to step in, go ahead and do it yourself. It's your business. Take care of business.

Karen here isn't doing herself, the clerk, the owner, or her community any favors by confronting this guy. Certainly escalating to gunplay is the wrong direction to take the encounter.

Even if the shoplifter escalated to assault, and she felt the need to defend herself, as far as I'm concerned she instigated the confrontation. The escalation and the shooting are on her. This isn't even a stand your ground situation, as far as I can tell. And that's assuming he actually attacked her, instead of barging past her and trying to flee. It wasn't her ground to stand.

My only complaints are about passing judgement based on the assumption that what the police spokesperson told the reporter is an accurate account of what actually happened, and about misrepresenting the police spokesperson's claim as the reporter's statement of a known fact.
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:16 AM   #39
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How about do something if you are so inclined (and can handle yourself), and don't if you don't feel comfortable throwing down? But one and all, leave the killing tools at home.
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:28 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Slowly and clearly: shemp asked about a post that was made when only one source was up: the OP article, that says he tried to push past her. I answered shemps question about that post, and specifically regarding the wording, and why. I was not addressing your meta butthurt position.
Nice, it's not that I'm interested in factual information being provided by multiple sources. Nope, that can't be. I have to be butthurt! Yeah, that makes total sense.

I am going off of the information we have available right now. As absolutely terrible at skepticism as I am, I decided to not just use one source. I went out and paged through about 4 sources total. All of which didn't use debatable language. They all say the individual was, indeed, past her when she decided to shoot. Some even confirming that she said he was past her to the police.
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