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Old 11th October 2021, 11:41 AM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How about do something if you are so inclined (and can handle yourself), and don't if you don't feel comfortable throwing down?
On your own property, or defending your own property? Sure. In someone else's place of business? Absolutely not. The clerk didn't ask for a brawl on aisle seven. The owner doesn't want a brawl on aisle seven. Don't think of it as justice for the shoplifter. Think of it as a kindness to the clerk.
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:44 AM   #42
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AZ on a roll. Another woman tried to murder a shoplifter earlier this year and managed to shoot an employee in the knee, likewise facing violent felon status.

https://www.azfamily.com/news/woman-...a403462b9.html
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:51 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On your own property, or defending your own property? Sure. In someone else's place of business? Absolutely not. The clerk didn't ask for a brawl on aisle seven. The owner doesn't want a brawl on aisle seven. Don't think of it as justice for the shoplifter. Think of it as a kindness to the clerk.
Fair call. Knocking over a rack of merchandise can result in far more damages than the initial lift. More of a situational decision, I guess. Although lawsuits if you hurt the shoplifter might financially hurt everyone more than letting him go.

Sucks when you want to help, but any help will more likely hurt further.
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:13 PM   #44
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More information according to 12 news shines some more light on this.

According to that source the woman knew the man from her apartment building, and also knew the retail person in the convenience store. Miriam told the clerk that she thought the man was going to steal something, the clerk said the man had stolen beer before, and so Miriam stood in front of the door (she was originally in her car when she saw the man pull up, only came inside when she saw the man enter the store). The man went to leave with a case of beer, Miriam said he wasn't going to move and told him she had a gun, the man "pushed Shekhmoos with his chest and beer, nearly knocking her down."

The important part:

Quote:
Shekhmoos admitted to detectives that she shot the man while he was walking away because he assaulted her by pushing past her.
Also:

Quote:
after shooting a man in his arm and chest
So not just one shot. Two shots.
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The important part:
I think those new facts point to something even more important: There could have been enough time to form an intent to kill. That could put this in to the real definition of attempted murder.
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
More information according to 12 news shines some more light on this.

According to that source the woman knew the man from her apartment building, and also knew the retail person in the convenience store. Miriam told the clerk that she thought the man was going to steal something, the clerk said the man had stolen beer before, and so Miriam stood in front of the door (she was originally in her car when she saw the man pull up, only came inside when she saw the man enter the store). The man went to leave with a case of beer, Miriam said he wasn't going to move and told him she had a gun, the man "pushed Shekhmoos with his chest and beer, nearly knocking her down."

The important part:



Also:



So not just one shot. Two shots.
You just cheated us out of tens of pages of speculation that hoofbeats mean zebras and not horses
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:39 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You just cheated us out of tens of pages of speculation that hoofbeats mean zebras and not horses
*Laughs* Like facts will stop the speculation.
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You just cheated us out of tens of pages of speculation that hoofbeats mean zebras and not horses
Since we have facts stood in the way of blind speculation around here?

ETA: Ninja'd by Joe
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Old 11th October 2021, 01:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Nice, it's not that I'm interested in factual information being provided by multiple sources. Nope, that can't be. I have to be butthurt! Yeah, that makes total sense.

I am going off of the information we have available right now. As absolutely terrible at skepticism as I am, I decided to not just use one source. I went out and paged through about 4 sources total. All of which didn't use debatable language. They all say the individual was, indeed, past her when she decided to shoot. Some even confirming that she said he was past her to the police.
Well you are taking a position contrary to Thermal's, so....
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Old 11th October 2021, 02:14 PM   #50
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The ISF...where every perp is a victim.
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The ISF...where every perp is a victim.
In this case it looks about 50/50. The perp that did the shoplifting was a victim of a shooting. The perp that was arrested for shooting the guy, on the other hand, does not seem to be a victim of any sort.
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So not just one shot. Two shots.
Could still be one, if he was clutching the beer to his chest. That would put his arms in line with a bullet going through his chest and then his arm.
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Old 11th October 2021, 05:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Shekhmoos admitted to detectives that she shot the man while he was walking away because he assaulted her by pushing past her.
I guess self defense is like an MMO where if someone commits a "crime" against you there's a bounty timer or sommat for a period afterwards that lets you attack them and still call it "self defense".

At least the police in this case remembered that shooting is only supposed to be allowed when you're "in fear of imminent serious harm or death" and she accidentally admitted she wasn't, so they had to arrest her.
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Old 11th October 2021, 05:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The ISF...where every perp is a victim.
Looks like you need a better way to keep score.

2 victims and 2 perps. The store is a victim of a robbery. The guy is a victim of attempted murder. He is also the robber. The women who shot him attempted to kill him over property. There is no self defense here.

The idea that robbery justifies murder is an ethical compromise that is unhealthy to make both for the individual and for society as a whole. Anybody or any institution willing to make the compromise cannot be trusted to make sound judgements either morally or legally. Any system of rational justice makes sure that the punishment is proportional to the crime. Murder is not proportional to stealing a case of beer.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:01 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Could still be one, if he was clutching the beer to his chest. That would put his arms in line with a bullet going through his chest and then his arm.
Holy ****, are you suggesting the beer might have gotten caught in the crossfire?

Hanging is too good for her.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:15 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Holy ****, are you suggesting the beer might have gotten caught in the crossfire?

Hanging is too good for her.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:22 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Holy ****, are you suggesting the beer might have gotten caught in the crossfire?

Hanging is too good for her.
Now hold on now. Don't need this sort of extreme conduct........Nobody should die over Pabst. Now if it was a good beer.......
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fair call. Knocking over a rack of merchandise can result in far more damages than the initial lift. More of a situational decision, I guess. Although lawsuits if you hurt the shoplifter might financially hurt everyone more than letting him go.

Sucks when you want to help, but any help will more likely hurt further.
Nobody actually wants to live in the same city as the PowerPuff Girls.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
More information according to 12 news shines some more light on this.

According to that source the woman knew the man from her apartment building, and also knew the retail person in the convenience store. Miriam told the clerk that she thought the man was going to steal something, the clerk said the man had stolen beer before, and so Miriam stood in front of the door (she was originally in her car when she saw the man pull up, only came inside when she saw the man enter the store). The man went to leave with a case of beer, Miriam said he wasn't going to move and told him she had a gun, the man "pushed Shekhmoos with his chest and beer, nearly knocking her down."

The important part:



Also:



So not just one shot. Two shots.
This looks even worse for her than before.

At least if this was a spur-of-the-moment decision, she would probably be given some leeway. But this was premeditated, so good luck with that defense!
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:43 PM   #60
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None of this is changing my opinion that for a certain part of the American population "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" applies. These people appear to be looking for excuses to use their guns. Caught someone shoplifting? You have a gun. Someone throwing popcorn? You have a gun. Someone trespassing on a building site? You have a gun.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:43 PM   #61
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What’s the point of having a second amendment if there aren’t any problems that guns can solve?

Or do I have that backwards?
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:47 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What’s the point of having a second amendment if there aren’t any problems that guns can solve?

Or do I have that backwards?
No, I think you've got it exactly right. It's a very good question.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:48 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As I said I count "Step aside and let someone else handle it" as being passive.

I don't want to go too deep down an esoteric hole only thematically related to this one event, but like I said I have trouble slotting "Stand aside and do nothing" into my set of standards as a pure positive.

Again I'm only saying that at a base level I see "Do nothing" when presented with "a wrong" as a negative.

Again I want to stress I see the outcome describe in the OP as wrong. You don't shoot someone fleeing from misdemeanor.

I'm just saying a core part of me sees "Stand by and do nothing, hoping someone else will do something about later" as wrong and I also don't know what possible 3rd option is supposed to go on the table.

People do bad things because they know the situations in which they will usually get away with it. That's why I have such an issue with a passive populace, one that dumps all its responsibilities for maintaining law and order on a few people.

And yes I know how much of a razors edge that is to mob justice and vigilante violence. As I've stated this is something of a moral paradox I will readily admit I have found myself in.

Surely most people have found themselves in some version of the "Well I don't feel comfortable doing nothing, but everything that could be done is wrong as well" problem.
I totally get this. As a security officer, I have to operate in a very narrow scope of the law, since I basically have the power of a civilian and not law enforcement.

The company I'm assigned to calls the shots as far as what is allowed by us, and if an associate or anybody else is caught stealing, we are to attempt to detain them, but they have the right to refuse and leave. I would file an incident report with my superiors and contact the Sheriff's office to report the crime. They would be quickly fired and investigated further.

My job is to more to make sure it doesn't get to that point, by providing visible deterrence and remaining vigilant.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:55 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
None of this is changing my opinion that for a certain part of the American population "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" applies. These people appear to be looking for excuses to use their guns. Caught someone shoplifting? You have a gun. Someone throwing popcorn? You have a gun. Someone trespassing on a building site? You have a gun.
It's good to know nobody's minds have changed and we're all going to go around the same circle one more time.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:56 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That seems like kind of an odd charge for shooting someone. I'm assuming the problem is that she shot him in the back while he was running away?
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why do you think it's wrong? Aggravated assault is assaulting someone with a deadly weapon, at least in AZ.

ETA: It's not just that BTW, there are other forms of aggravated assault.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might appear to some of us that shooting someone is attempted murder.
The prosecutors may decide to charge her with attempted murder as well as aggravated assault, but the police don't need to make that determination to arrest her. Aggravated assault is a felony and is sufficient to make the arrest. Later on the prosecutors can decide what other charges to add, if they think they are warranted.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:04 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's good to know nobody's minds have changed and we're all going to go around the same circle one more time.
Unless a bystander thinks circling is a crime and opens fire on us.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's good to know nobody's minds have changed and we're all going to go around the same circle one more time.
So change it.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:16 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Looks like you need a better way to keep score.

2 victims and 2 perps. The store is a victim of a robbery. The guy is a victim of attempted murder. He is also the robber. The women who shot him attempted to kill him over property. There is no self defense here.

The idea that robbery justifies murder is an ethical compromise that is unhealthy to make both for the individual and for society as a whole. Anybody or any institution willing to make the compromise cannot be trusted to make sound judgements either morally or legally. Any system of rational justice makes sure that the punishment is proportional to the crime. Murder is not proportional to stealing a case of beer.
Meh. Robbers often justify murdering their victims. In this case, karma paid a visit to the robber. Oh well. He decided the beer was worth his life, potentially. Hope it was at least something of high quality, like Natty Light.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:16 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Meh. Robbers often justify murdering their victims. In this case, karma paid a visit to the robber. Oh well. He decided the beer was worth his life, potentially. Hope it was at least something of high quality, like Natty Light.
He decided???
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:21 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
So change it.
We've been through this more than once already. Your axioms are too different from mine. Literally nothing would change your mind about the right to bear arms. We don't even use the same terminology for half the stuff we're trying to discuss. I was mostly just making a commentary on your decision to drop into this thread to let us all know that the thing that nobody expected to change your mind did not, in fact, change your mind.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:22 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He decided???
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:29 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We've been through this more than once already. Your axioms are too different from mine. Literally nothing would change your mind about the right to bear arms. We don't even use the same terminology for half the stuff we're trying to discuss. I was mostly just making a commentary on your decision to drop into this thread to let us all know that the thing that nobody expected to change your mind did not, in fact, change your mind.
I remain open to reasonable arguments. That none have so far convinced me does not change that.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
until one is fired upon, using a gun is the most craven and cowardly action a pathetic excuse for a human can possibly take.
Drivel.
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:59 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I remain open to reasonable arguments. That none have so far convinced me does not change that.
And you thought this thread would have any?
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:06 PM   #75
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And you thought this thread would have any?
I thought someone might have brought their A game. It's been a while since we've really got into it.

Now, rather than talking about me, do you want to talk about the OP?
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:10 PM   #76
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If the woman knew the person from her apartment, why even bother with the confrontation? "That's Jim from 2A. Just call the cops and I will be a witness to the theft and give his home address." With the facts in hand, there is literally no reason to do anything besides let the crime happen and have the authorities deal with it.

There is a very strong response to people breaking the law to some people that others don't seem to have. I've had and known people that have the same for just breaking of social norms, like cutting lines. It's always selective though. Wouldn't surprise me if in a different situation this woman would lambast the thief to a friend on her phone on her way home while driving drunk. I don't get overly invested in the little things anymore and I don't think most people should given the possibility of escalation.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:21 PM   #77
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
If the woman knew the person from her apartment, why even bother with the confrontation? "That's Jim from 2A. Just call the cops and I will be a witness to the theft and give his home address." With the facts in hand, there is literally no reason to do anything besides let the crime happen and have the authorities deal with it.

There is a very strong response to people breaking the law to some people that others don't seem to have. I've had and known people that have the same for just breaking of social norms, like cutting lines. It's always selective though. Wouldn't surprise me if in a different situation this woman would lambast the thief to a friend on her phone on her way home while driving drunk. I don't get overly invested in the little things anymore and I don't think most people should given the possibility of escalation.
Exactly. When you are carrying a gun you have an opportunity to escalate. Not all people will take that opportunity, obviously, but if you take away the opportunity, those that otherwise would can't.

A gun is an easy way to turn a confrontation into a deadly confrontation.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:25 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Exactly. When you are carrying a gun you have an opportunity to escalate. Not all people will take that opportunity, obviously, but if you take away the opportunity, those that otherwise would can't.

A gun is an easy way to turn a confrontation into a deadly confrontation.
So is a swimming pool.

- The NRA
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:44 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Meh. Robbers often justify murdering their victims. In this case, karma paid a visit to the robber. Oh well. He decided the beer was worth his life, potentially. Hope it was at least something of high quality, like Natty Light.
1.) Two wrongs still don't make a right. He is not suspected of murdering anyone.
2.) No, he did not decided a beer was worth his life. Somebody else decided it was worth his life and that person is now facing charges.
3.) If he is dumb enough to steal beer I would not count on it being good beer.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
1.) Two wrongs still don't make a right. He is not suspected of murdering anyone.
2.) No, he did not decided a beer was worth his life. Somebody else decided it was worth his life and that person is now facing charges.
3.) If he is dumb enough to steal beer I would not count on it being good beer.
It's hard to take you seriously when you have hung up on beer quality in murder case.
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