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Old 13th October 2021, 12:45 PM   #1
JoeMorgue
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Several dead in reported bow and arrow attack in Norway

Quote:
(CNN) Several people have been killed and others were injured by an attacker in the Norwegian town of Kongsberg, according to Norwegian police.

A suspect has been arrested and the situation is under control, a press officer for Norway's police force told CNN on Wednesday.

The suspected attacker was using a bow and arrow, a local Kongsberg police spokesman also said.
CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/13/europ...ntl/index.html
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:32 PM   #2
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He managed to kill 5 and wound 2, in a grocery store.
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
He managed to kill 5 and wound 2, in a grocery store.
That is pretty bizarre, frankly. It;'s going to be interesting to see how exactly he managed to do that.
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
He managed to kill 5 and wound 2, in a grocery store.
Reuters says that there was more than one crime scene, spread over a "larger area" of the town.
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is pretty bizarre, frankly. It;'s going to be interesting to see how exactly he managed to do that.
There's no trick to it.

When you're using a bow, people don't know where it's coming from, or what's happening. I reckon I could take out five or more in a shopping centre before they realised what was going on and to take cover.

I just hope it's not one of my mates from the bowhunter club.
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Old 13th October 2021, 08:52 PM   #6
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A Danish citizen, registered as living in Kongsberg, Norway and a convert to Islam. He surrendered to police after warning shots were fired.

That's what's being said. We will know more soon.
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Old 13th October 2021, 10:15 PM   #7
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The Danes ruled Norway till 1814. I don't hope this is the start of the reconquest.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
The Danes ruled Norway till 1814. I don't hope this is the start of the reconquest.
The Danes didn't rule Norway. You could say Norway was ruled from Denmark, I guess, since the capital and the king was in Copenhagen. But it was a union. The name of the kingdom was Denmark-Norway.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
When you're using a bow, people don't know where it's coming from, or what's happening.

I think the arrow kind of gives it away. Both what's happening and where it's coming from.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:46 PM   #10
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A 37-year-old Dane but a resident of Kongsberg, Norway:
Dansk statsborger sigtet efter dødeligt angreb i Kongsberg (DR.dk, Oct 14, 2021)
And he used other weapons besides the bow and arrow, but it does not mention the kind of weapons:
Politiet: Gerningsmand brugte andre våben end bue og pil (DR.dk, Oct 14, 2021)
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
The Danes didn't rule Norway. You could say Norway was ruled from Denmark, I guess, since the capital and the king was in Copenhagen. But it was a union. The name of the kingdom was Denmark-Norway.

Tordenskjold is considered to be a hero in both countries. And Holberg is considered the founder of modern Danish and Norwegian literature.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:16 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think the arrow kind of gives it away. Both what's happening and where it's coming from.
Many's the time I've been shot by an arrow that I never saw coming from a direction I didn't expect.

I'm talking about LARP battle games, but the concept tracks. Arrows are more or less silent and unless you know there's an archer pointing one at you, you might have one in your chest before you even know you're in danger.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Many's the time I've been shot by an arrow that I never saw coming from a direction I didn't expect.

I'm talking about LARP battle games, but the concept tracks. Arrows are more or less silent and unless you know there's an archer pointing one at you, you might have one in your chest before you even know you're in danger.
One witness reports seeing a confused man exit the supermarket with an arrow in his back.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Many's the time I've been shot by an arrow that I never saw coming from a direction I didn't expect.

I'm talking about LARP battle games, but the concept tracks. Arrows are more or less silent and unless you know there's an archer pointing one at you, you might have one in your chest before you even know you're in danger.

But at the moment of impact it points in the direction of the shooter.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But at the moment of impact it points in the direction of the shooter.
You couldn't be more wrong.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:46 AM   #16
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He is a convert to Islam and was already known to the police. The victims are four women and one man, ages 50 to 70: Siktede er kjent for politiet fra flere saker - bekymringer om radikalisering (NRK.no, Oct 14, 2021)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:48 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
You couldn't be more wrong.

It is obviously the opposite direction, but it's not like what you see in crime investigation movies where forensic investigators have to put straws into bullet holes to figure out the trajectory.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:51 AM   #18
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Police had been warned about his radicalization.
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Old 14th October 2021, 02:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It is obviously the opposite direction, but it's not like what you see in crime investigation movies where forensic investigators have to put straws into bullet holes to figure out the trajectory.

Well, to be precise, the horizontal component of the arrow's orientation at point of entry will (barring the presence of strong winds) indicate the lateral direction from which it was fired. But the vertical component is a much more complicated element, owing to the significant influence of gravity on an arrow. If it can be assumed that the archer was at more-or-less the same elevation as the target, then one can use ballistics analysis - also taking into account the effect of drag on the bow - to estimate the distance between archer and target. Obviously if the archer and target were (or might have been) at significantly different elevations from each other, things get way more complicated still.
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Old 14th October 2021, 02:29 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But at the moment of impact it points in the direction of the shooter.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I doubt most people who have just been shot with an arrow stand very still.
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Old 14th October 2021, 03:33 AM   #21
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So do I, which is why I wrote "at the moment of impact."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2021, 03:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But the vertical component is a much more complicated element, owing to the significant influence of gravity on an arrow.
Hence the significance of the first few letters of the word "archery".

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Old 14th October 2021, 04:14 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Hence the significance of the first few letters of the word "archery".

Dave
Surely "arch" comes from the shape of a bow (Latin "arcus") rather than the trajectory of the arrow.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:31 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Surely "arch" comes from the shape of a bow (Latin "arcus") rather than the trajectory of the arrow.
Could be, yes; I have no recollection of where I heard that derivation, so for credibility it rates a zero.

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Old 14th October 2021, 05:16 AM   #25
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The archer is Espen Bråthen, a 27 year old man native to Kongsberg where the incident happened. His father is Norwegian and his mother is Danish. He has Danish citizenship, despite having lived in Norway all his life. He recently converted to Islam, and last year gained the attention of the police after people reported his extreme and rapid radicalization.

He has had a lot of trouble with police in the past, including a police intervention when he threatened to kill his own father.

In the far right circles this is already used as evidence of the inherent danger of all Muslims.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:33 AM   #26
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Photo (TV2.dk, Oct 14, 2021). He grew up in Norway, so we take no responsibility!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
In the far right circles this is already used as evidence of the inherent danger of all Muslims.
Good to see some behavior transcends borders. Seems like the far right in every country use these as opportunities to do the same thing.
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Old 14th October 2021, 07:50 AM   #28
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You have to wonder if this is how "mass shootings" went down in medieval times.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So do I, which is why I wrote "at the moment of impact."
Yes, but if it's only pointing that way for a moment, observers (including the target, BTW) may not be able to use that to infer the direction of attack accurately.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:51 AM   #30
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Did all of the killings take place inside or was it outside too? I saw mention of multiple weapons. Did this guy get up close and personal with these killings or was everything from a range?
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Did all of the killings take place inside or was it outside too? I saw mention of multiple weapons. Did this guy get up close and personal with these killings or was everything from a range?
They were in various places over a large area. We already know about the supermarket. There have been reports of him entering peoples' homes and attack those inside. He did have at least two encounters with the police outside, where he shot at them with arrows and then managed to shake them.

The police has said he had multiple weapons, but have not said what kind or if he used them.

We know a lot more than we did this morning, but there's still a lot we don't know.

He seems to me to be someone attracted to extremism, and might not have cared what kind. There was an interview with two young women who had been his neighbour, and they said he was a very scary guy and would growl at them on the street. One of them, a black girl, said he had made racist comments at her.

Another neighbour had seen him practice with weapons like sticks and nunchucks in his backyard.

Usually in cases like these, the neighbours are surprised. He seemed like such a nice and quiet guy! Not this guy. Everyone seems to agree he was a ticking bomb.

He converted to Islam in 2017, which he announced in a video on social media that was so extreme and scary that people who knew him contacted the police, saying they were worried that he could do something violent.

There have been no reports on him being in any Islamic communities or attending local mosques.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:40 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
They were in various places over a large area. We already know about the supermarket. There have been reports of him entering peoples' homes and attack those inside. He did have at least two encounters with the police outside, where he shot at them with arrows and then managed to shake them.

The police has said he had multiple weapons, but have not said what kind or if he used them.

We know a lot more than we did this morning, but there's still a lot we don't know.

He seems to me to be someone attracted to extremism, and might not have cared what kind. There was an interview with two young women who had been his neighbour, and they said he was a very scary guy and would growl at them on the street. One of them, a black girl, said he had made racist comments at her.

Another neighbour had seen him practice with weapons like sticks and nunchucks in his backyard.

Usually in cases like these, the neighbours are surprised. He seemed like such a nice and quiet guy! Not this guy. Everyone seems to agree he was a ticking bomb.

He converted to Islam in 2017, which he announced in a video on social media that was so extreme and scary that people who knew him contacted the police, saying they were worried that he could do something violent.

There have been no reports on him being in any Islamic communities or attending local mosques.
Thanks for the breakdown! I'm interested to hear what more comes of it. I respect individual rights, but it's too bad that in cases like this the police have to wait for something to happen before doing anything.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:42 AM   #33
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Lauren Bobert, a member of Congress and Mensa, observes:

"A man in Norway just killed a bunch of people with a bow and arrow.

Norway has some of the strictest gun laws around, yet mass killings still occur.

Liberals need to understand it is not the gun - it is the criminal who commits the act!"

The government of Norway has killed people, and the government of North Korea has killed people. It doesn't matter how "democratic" or "liberal" you make your government, it's still going to kill people. Rather pointless to have any laws at all, really.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:08 AM   #34
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Unfortunate coincidence:
Quote:
I ny komedie truer Rasmus Bjergs hovedrolle norske betjente med bue og pil.
Nordisk Film udskyder premiere på komedie efter drab i Norge (DR.dk, Oct 14, 2021)
In a new Danish comedy, which was meant to premiere on Nov 11, Rasmus Berg stars as a Dane who threatens two Norwegian policemen with bow and arrows.
The premiere has now been postponed.

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Old 14th October 2021, 10:10 AM   #35
Ryokan
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Lauren Bobert, a member of Congress and Mensa, observes:

"A man in Norway just killed a bunch of people with a bow and arrow.

Norway has some of the strictest gun laws around, yet mass killings still occur.

Liberals need to understand it is not the gun - it is the criminal who commits the act!"

The government of Norway has killed people, and the government of North Korea has killed people. It doesn't matter how "democratic" or "liberal" you make your government, it's still going to kill people. Rather pointless to have any laws at all, really.
Norway does not have some of the strictest gun laws around. On the list of countries with the most civilian guns per capita we're at #17 out of 230. Gun ownership isn't that uncommon in Norway. We're a hunting nation.

I'm more than willing to sit down with Lauren Bobert and look at the statistics and compare the frequency of mass killings in our two countries.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:11 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I'm more than willing to sit down with Lauren Bobert and look at the statistics and compare the frequency of mass killings in our two countries.
Dear God, sir, no. Don't.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:11 AM   #37
dann
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Lauren Bobert, ...
GOP Rep. Lauren Boebert Ridiculed Over Response To Norway’s Bow And Arrow Killings (Yahoo News)

GOP Rep. Lauren Boebert Ridiculed Over Response To Norway’s Bow And Arrow Killings (HuffPost)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 14th October 2021, 10:57 AM   #38
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think the arrow kind of gives it away. Both what's happening and where it's coming from.
Neither, although the people around the person with an arrow in them will realise that soon.

When someone starts shooting with a gun, the sound gives away the direction of the shooter. With a bow, unless you see the arrow hit, you wouldn't have a clue.

I've never shot a human, but I'm guessing human reaction would be much the same as other large mammals - an immediate large jump, which is going to leave the arrow pointing in a direction other than where the shot came from. With the being no sound, I'm sure the shock factor of seeing someone suddenly have an arrow sticking out of them is going to cause some serious confusion for several seconds. Again, with a gun, you know where to run from, with an arrow, you don't and might be running straight towards the archer.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
But at the moment of impact it points in the direction of the shooter.
And what are the chances of that? You'd have to be looking at the part of the person that gets hit, and arrows are pretty fast and I wouldn't guarantee any normal person would be able to pinpoint more than a general direction at the first strike. Even if it's a really good shot and drops a person on the spot, they're going to crumple and the arrow will be pointing somewhere else.

Given that once people realise someone is shooting arrows at them their first instinct will be to seek cover or run away, they're going to have to figure out where it's coming from first, and I think that's going to be much more difficult than you realise.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Norway does not have some of the strictest gun laws around. On the list of countries with the most civilian guns per capita we're at #17 out of 230. Gun ownership isn't that uncommon in Norway. We're a hunting nation.
I remember while doing some research a while ago reading that people visiting Svalbard are actually required to have a firearm, or rent one locally, to protect themselves from bears if they want to go outside the Longyearbyen town limits for any amount of time. This applies equally to tour groups, educational institution field trips, and people visiting on private boats.

It has been reported in the news that immediately after this incident the Norwegian police were ordered to start carrying guns for a time while they usually do not. Maybe the poster saw that report and made some assumptions about Norway's attitude toward guns.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:16 PM   #40
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Norwegian newspaper VG has published the video he made when he came out as a Muslim in 2017. It's in English.

https://www.vgtv.no/video/226649/vid...gsberg-siktede

It's at 0:25 into the video.

He doesn't seem like the brightest guy.
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