The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 3 - Page 26

Resume · 7th April 2021, 07:46 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,637,243
Deaths:
572,849

New Cases:
75,183
New Deaths:
873

Resume · 8th April 2021, 06:56 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,717,404
Deaths:
573,856

New Cases:
80,161
New Deaths:
1,009

Resume · 9th April 2021, 07:08 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,802,772
Deaths:
574,840

New Cases:
85,368
New Deaths:
929

Aridas · 9th April 2021, 09:59 PM

To poke at a couple things of some note...

Vaccine is piling up in red states, as Republican anti-science threatens national health

*sigh*

Also, Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal

*sigh*

Solitaire · 10th April 2021, 11:05 AM

Yep.

The projections for a peak death total of 600,000 death by the end of the year,
now look quite a bit higher. Health Data Trends

Even the bottom of the page for Google Forecast show a linear growth rate
over the next few months.

Resume · 10th April 2021, 07:41 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,869,980
Deaths:
575,593

New Cases:
66,764
New Deaths:
740

Resume · 11th April 2021, 07:31 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,918,591
Deaths:
575,829

New Cases:
47,864
New Deaths:
276

SuburbanTurkey · 12th April 2021, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

To poke at a couple things of some note...

Vaccine is piling up in red states, as Republican anti-science threatens national health

*sigh*

Also, Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal

*sigh*

Red states are leading the wave of this, but this is surely going to be a problem in every state.

I fear a lot of the success in mass vaccination right now has a lot to do with the scarcity. People across the country are smashing F5 on their keyboards all day long trying to get these vaccine appointments. The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up.

I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics, allowing for vaccine doses to expire or otherwise creating needless waste of time and materials.

I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective.

The Don · 12th April 2021, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective.

Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?

Silly Green Monkey · 12th April 2021, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up.

I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics

My hope is that most people dragging their feet are wanting to see how everyone else reacts, essentially letting the early adopters be guinea pigs. Unfortunately this won't include people who think there may be longterm effects, like months or years out.

SuburbanTurkey · 12th April 2021, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?

As far as denying healthcare, almost certainly not. This is a level of moral triage that health care providers rightly want nothing to do with. Payment is another matter, but lack of payment is not going to be relevant at point of care for an emergency condition such as respiratory failure due to severe covid.

I'm not sure what means are available for employers to require employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment.

Pixel42 · 12th April 2021, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Will the market take a role ?

Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ?

Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?

Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated.

I do think people should be able to choose not be vaccinated, but such choices have consequences.

Bob001 · 12th April 2021, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated.
....

There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now.

Pixel42 · 12th April 2021, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now.

Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented.

Bob001 · 12th April 2021, 07:15 AM

A look at the long-term economic impact of refusing to take a covid vaccine.

Quote:

If the 30 percent of Americans who are telling pollsters they won’t get vaccinated follow through, the costs of their decisions will pile up. The economy could take longer to get back to full speed, and once it does, it could get shut down again by outbreaks. Variants will continue to spread, and more people will die. Each COVID-19 case requires weeks of costly rehabilitation. Even after the pandemic fades, millions of vaccine refusers could turn into hundreds of thousands of patients who need extra care, should they come down with the disease.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-costs/618528/

Bob001 · 12th April 2021, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented.

It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection.

Resume · 12th April 2021, 07:40 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
31,990,143
Deaths:
576,298

New Cases:
56,522
New Deaths:
460

SuburbanTurkey · Yesterday, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection.

Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US.

I think a passport system probably would convince some fence sitters to get the vaccine, but you have to go into such a program knowing there's also going to be a vicious backlash from the reactionary types. I don't know how you would weigh the pros/cons of such a thing.

A vaccine passport system is almost certainly going to end with some minor acts of terrorism from anti-vax and/or right wing freaks, not to mention minor assaults and murders on store clerks and so on that have the unfortunate job of having to refuse service to these freaks.

Meadmaker · Yesterday, 08:38 AM

I think the administration is doing a terrible job of promoting the vaccine. I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign.

The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life.

Needless to say, the last three months have been an improvement over the previous time period, but that's a very low bar to clear.

Skeptic Ginger · Yesterday, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

... I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign.

Not when some see it as the evil libs want them to take it.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

...The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life.....

You are presuming a couple of things, one that these people are not getting the opposite messages from their peers, the right wing media, etc...

and two) that all the state legislators are in agreement with the wear a mask/get a vaccine message. It might be to their benefit to nurture the message of 'freedom'.

IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting.

Armitage72 · Yesterday, 01:29 PM

Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that."

A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18.

Quote:

You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18?

COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19!

Bob001 · Yesterday, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US.
....

Blank cards are already widely and legally available. It's really just an appointment card. You could buy a blank and fill it in yourself. To look right you really only need a lot number for the vaccine, or how to make one up. It's not even signed by the "shooter." Any vaccine "passport" would have to be linked to some central database that would prove validity, and the U.S. government doesn't have or want to create such a database.

Meadmaker · Yesterday, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting.

I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree.

There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like:

Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen.
Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype.
P: No, something very bad will happen.
S: I don't believe it.
P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck.
S: That's not what I hear.
P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!!

In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic.

Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work.

And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out.

Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway.

Skeptic Ginger · Yesterday, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree.

There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like:

Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen.
Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype.
P: No, something very bad will happen.
S: I don't believe it.
P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck.
S: That's not what I hear.
P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!!

In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic.

Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work.

And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out.

Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway.

Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'.

We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science.

Meadmaker · Yesterday, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'.

We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science.

Certainly.

Part of that science is that it isn't just one type of "consumer" that has to be reached in this campaign. Making it personal is definitely part of it. Convincing people of the science is a different part. Part of the human face is convincing people that they or their loved ones or at least someone they admire is in real danger. Saying, "Your grandma could die." or "The health care providers are at risk." doesn't work unless they believe it. What we are seeing is that just telling them it's true is not enough to make them believe it.

Part of what is influencing me in this belief is that I went to my state government's web site when I started looking into vaccines. They said, "Get the safe and effective vaccine." And they said it a lot. Meanwhile, I would see news headlines, "Man dies after getting vaccine.", "Here are the side effects of the vaccine." "Vaccine may not be effective against latest mutation."

I, being who I am, would read in depth articles and note that severe side effects happened to a handful of people, out of hundreds of thousands vaccinated. I can do the math there. My chance of dying or being hospitalized from Covid is a lot higher than dying or being hospitalized from the vaccine. I also know that if the vaccine isn't 100% effective, then my chance of getting Covid is strongly dependent on how many people get vaccinated. I know these things, but my boss doesn't. He has the background necessary to understand it, but he hasn't taken the time to think it through. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get sick from the side effects. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get the disease anyway. "Common sense" tells him that this is not a great deal.

Somehow, we have to reach people and move them past "common sense" into the realm of science. I think my boss can understand it, but first he has to hear an argument that he can think about, and I know I haven't seen it. The fact that Gretchen Whitmer tells me the vaccine is "safe and effective" means something to me, but for a Republican voter, it doesn't mean much. If he knows that it isn't 100% safe or 100% effective, so he might even be put off by the message.

Minoosh · Yesterday, 04:57 PM

I don't know how the often glib Malcolm Gladwell's theory is holding up, 12 years after this article was written by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy:

Quote:

Using Gladwell's "the power of context" approach, high student traffic areas on the Chicago campus were designated as vaccination sites and highlighted with maps and arrows to direct students to these areas. Planners attributed increased seasonal flu vaccine uptake to the use of this approach in its communication strategy at the university over the last three years.

Just nagging each other to do it might be effective. I could easily see me postponing a shot out of sheer procrastination, but I live on a campus for the elderly and it would have been bad manners. Now I can tell folks I'm fully vaccinated (well, 2nd shot today).

ETA: There's also the thought of incentivizing vaccination. Pay people to get it.

Blue Mountain · Yesterday, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that."

A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18.

Quote:

You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18?

COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19!

Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?

Resume · Yesterday, 07:13 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
32,070,784
Deaths:
577,179

New Cases:
77,720
New Deaths:
819

Bob001 · Yesterday, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?

Kellyanne is.

Quote:

“This is COVID-19, not COVID-1 folks, and so you would think the people charged with the World Health Organisation facts and figures would be on top of that.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9467561.html

Armitage72 · Today, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?

I've never really understood "I'll make myself look like a complete idiot, and it will make someone else look bad."

Many years ago, in the days of Usenet, the apparently mentally ill creator of the HYBRID RPG spent years posting rambling excerpts from their creation on rec.games.frp.super-heroes. Someone theorized that it was all an elaborate prank at the expense of the other users. Someone else argued that that would be like going out to a public place and starting to scream while defecating yourself, and doing it almost every day for years. After several years, you would then announce "Ha, ha! I tricked all of you. I was only pretending to be deranged." You've still spent years soiling yourself in public, regardless of how people feel about it.

9th April 2021, 09:59 PM	#1004
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,575	To poke at a couple things of some note... Vaccine is piling up in red states, as Republican anti-science threatens national health sigh Also, Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal sigh
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

10th April 2021, 11:05 AM	#1005
Solitaire Neoclinus blanchardi Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,522	Yep. The projections for a peak death total of 600,000 death by the end of the year, now look quite a bit higher. Health Data Trends Even the bottom of the page for Google Forecast show a linear growth rate over the next few months.
	__________________ Currently thinking up a new signature line. Last edited by Solitaire; 10th April 2021 at 11:47 AM. Reason: more info

12th April 2021, 03:48 AM	#1008
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,489	Originally Posted by Aridas To poke at a couple things of some note... Vaccine is piling up in red states, as Republican anti-science threatens national health sigh Also, Trump officials bragged about pressuring CDC to alter Covid reports, emails reveal sigh Red states are leading the wave of this, but this is surely going to be a problem in every state. I fear a lot of the success in mass vaccination right now has a lot to do with the scarcity. People across the country are smashing F5 on their keyboards all day long trying to get these vaccine appointments. The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up. I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics, allowing for vaccine doses to expire or otherwise creating needless waste of time and materials. I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 12th April 2021 at 03:49 AM.

12th April 2021, 05:50 AM	#1010
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,248	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The time will soon come that all these people champing at the bit have been vaccinated, and sooner or later there's going to be vaccines in excess while the people who are overtly opposed or somewhat squishy on the issue are not signing up. I fear that we're going to reach a point where there's still a very large portion of the population that's unvaccinated and aren't really rushing to the clinics My hope is that most people dragging their feet are wanting to see how everyone else reacts, essentially letting the early adopters be guinea pigs. Unfortunately this won't include people who think there may be longterm effects, like months or years out.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

12th April 2021, 06:07 AM	#1011
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,489	Originally Posted by The Don Will the market take a role ? Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ? Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ? As far as denying healthcare, almost certainly not. This is a level of moral triage that health care providers rightly want nothing to do with. Payment is another matter, but lack of payment is not going to be relevant at point of care for an emergency condition such as respiratory failure due to severe covid. I'm not sure what means are available for employers to require employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

7th April 2021, 07:46 PM	#1001
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,637,243 Deaths: 572,849 New Cases: 75,183 New Deaths: 873

8th April 2021, 06:56 PM	#1002
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,717,404 Deaths: 573,856 New Cases: 80,161 New Deaths: 1,009

9th April 2021, 07:08 PM	#1003
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,802,772 Deaths: 574,840 New Cases: 85,368 New Deaths: 929

10th April 2021, 07:41 PM	#1006
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,869,980 Deaths: 575,593 New Cases: 66,764 New Deaths: 740

11th April 2021, 07:31 PM	#1007
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,918,591 Deaths: 575,829 New Cases: 47,864 New Deaths: 276

12th April 2021, 04:03 AM	#1009
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,607	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I wonder what should be the response to vaccine refusal, especially when it becomes clear there is an abundance of vaccines available and if refusal rate is high enough to keep the virus endemic. Carrot or stick, hard to say which would be more effective. Will the market take a role ? Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ? Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ?

12th April 2021, 06:27 AM	#1012
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,159	Originally Posted by The Don Will the market take a role ? Could someone be denied cover for Covid-related healthcare if they refuse to be vaccinated without good cause ? Could someone be refused employment if their employer insists that they are vaccinated ? Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated. I do think people should be able to choose not be vaccinated, but such choices have consequences.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

12th April 2021, 07:01 AM	#1013
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,986	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Perhaps less controversial and reasonably effective would be denying entry to restaurants, planes and so on to the unvaccinated. .... There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now.

12th April 2021, 07:09 AM	#1014
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 13,159	Originally Posted by Bob001 There would still need to be reliable, secure proof that someone has been vaccinated, which doesn't exist now. Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

12th April 2021, 07:15 AM	#1015
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,986	A look at the long-term economic impact of refusing to take a covid vaccine. Quote: If the 30 percent of Americans who are telling pollsters they won’t get vaccinated follow through, the costs of their decisions will pile up. The economy could take longer to get back to full speed, and once it does, it could get shut down again by outbreaks. Variants will continue to spread, and more people will die. Each COVID-19 case requires weeks of costly rehabilitation. Even after the pandemic fades, millions of vaccine refusers could turn into hundreds of thousands of patients who need extra care, should they come down with the disease. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-costs/618528/

12th April 2021, 07:18 AM	#1016
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,986	Originally Posted by Pixel42 Yes, I'm assuming that the vaccine passport idea (still under discussion in the UK) is actually implemented. It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection.

12th April 2021, 07:40 PM	#1017
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 31,990,143 Deaths: 576,298 New Cases: 56,522 New Deaths: 460

Yesterday, 06:58 AM	#1018
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,489	Originally Posted by Bob001 It might at least be possible in the UK, with its national health care system and centralized record-keeping. Less likely in the U.S., especially without government involvement, to which there seems to be broad objection. Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US. I think a passport system probably would convince some fence sitters to get the vaccine, but you have to go into such a program knowing there's also going to be a vicious backlash from the reactionary types. I don't know how you would weigh the pros/cons of such a thing. A vaccine passport system is almost certainly going to end with some minor acts of terrorism from anti-vax and/or right wing freaks, not to mention minor assaults and murders on store clerks and so on that have the unfortunate job of having to refuse service to these freaks.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

Yesterday, 08:38 AM	#1019
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,502	I think the administration is doing a terrible job of promoting the vaccine. I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign. The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life. Needless to say, the last three months have been an improvement over the previous time period, but that's a very low bar to clear.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

Yesterday, 12:37 PM	#1020
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,800	Originally Posted by Meadmaker ... I don't have all that high of an opinion of the American people, but I think all but the dumbest of the dumb could be reached with the right kind of public relations campaign. Not when some see it as the evil libs want them to take it. Originally Posted by Meadmaker ...The great mass of Americans aren't geniuses and they can't make mathematical models, but they could understand what one is if people would take the time to talk about it. Having some authority figure, whether it be Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci stand up and say, "You should be wearing masks" is better than nothing, but it isn't a lot better. There really should be some more elaborate Public Service Announcements that describe why a 10% reduction in transmission rate really matters, and the role that masks, social distancing, and the vaccine all play in reducing the spread and how it plays a long term role in getting back to normal life..... You are presuming a couple of things, one that these people are not getting the opposite messages from their peers, the right wing media, etc... and two) that all the state legislators are in agreement with the wear a mask/get a vaccine message. It might be to their benefit to nurture the message of 'freedom'. IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; Yesterday at 12:40 PM.

Yesterday, 01:29 PM	#1021
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,415	Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that." A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18. Quote: You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18? COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19!

Yesterday, 01:45 PM	#1022
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,986	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Looking forward to a booming Etsy trade in fraudulent vaccine cards should this become standard practice in the US. .... Blank cards are already widely and legally available. It's really just an appointment card. You could buy a blank and fill it in yourself. To look right you really only need a lot number for the vaccine, or how to make one up. It's not even signed by the "shooter." Any vaccine "passport" would have to be linked to some central database that would prove validity, and the U.S. government doesn't have or want to create such a database.

Yesterday, 03:02 PM	#1023
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,502	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger IMO we do need more emphasis on the sacrifice healthcare workers are making because of people's ignorance. And a few more stories pointing out the outbreaks as people ignore social distancing, especially how sick some young people are getting. I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree. There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like: Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen. Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype. P: No, something very bad will happen. S: I don't believe it. P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck. S: That's not what I hear. P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!! In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic. Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work. And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out. Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

Yesterday, 03:35 PM	#1024
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 87,800	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I agree, but I'm not sure how much I agree. There's a tendency when trying to persuade people to take the argument in the wrong direction. It goes something like: Persuader (P): If we don't do X, something bad will happen. Skeptic (S): I don't believe that. I heard it was a bunch of hype. P: No, something very bad will happen. S: I don't believe it. P: I'm telling you, you had better get with the program or this is going to really suck. S: That's not what I hear. P: You friggin' moron! A lot of people are going to die because of you!!!! In other words, people are skeptical, but the argumentative tactic is to emphasize just how bad it will be. If they don't believe you if you say it will be bad, they certainly won't believe you if you say it will be apocalyptic. Persuading people is not easy, especially in the face of the kind of misinformation spread by the right wing, but I think it has to be done. It's true that if you put out a bunch of commercials saying, "Doctors say you should get the vaccine because we want to lower R0 to below 1", there isn't going to be an instant light bulb that goes on and gets people to head to the local clinic. Unfortunately, it takes time, and repetition, and directly attacking the arguments from the other side, but it's the only way to make it work. And I do think it should be in the form of commercials and advertising. You have to generate buzz, which is even harder these days when there isn't even a water cooler where everybody hears the conversation. It's hard to reach people on Netflix, but it has to happen. If the government were to start producing PSA's that had real arguments in them, at the very least, even Fox would eventually start talking about them, and slowly the truth would win out. Or......not. In which case there's no hope anyway. Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'. We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; Yesterday at 03:38 PM.

Yesterday, 04:39 PM	#1025
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,502	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Or one could do it right and provide a human face to a threat which otherwise people resisting the message tend to make it about 'other people, no one I know'. We have an in-depth body of knowledge about marketing science. Not everyone recognizes the benefit of using that science. Certainly. Part of that science is that it isn't just one type of "consumer" that has to be reached in this campaign. Making it personal is definitely part of it. Convincing people of the science is a different part. Part of the human face is convincing people that they or their loved ones or at least someone they admire is in real danger. Saying, "Your grandma could die." or "The health care providers are at risk." doesn't work unless they believe it. What we are seeing is that just telling them it's true is not enough to make them believe it. Part of what is influencing me in this belief is that I went to my state government's web site when I started looking into vaccines. They said, "Get the safe and effective vaccine." And they said it a lot. Meanwhile, I would see news headlines, "Man dies after getting vaccine.", "Here are the side effects of the vaccine." "Vaccine may not be effective against latest mutation." I, being who I am, would read in depth articles and note that severe side effects happened to a handful of people, out of hundreds of thousands vaccinated. I can do the math there. My chance of dying or being hospitalized from Covid is a lot higher than dying or being hospitalized from the vaccine. I also know that if the vaccine isn't 100% effective, then my chance of getting Covid is strongly dependent on how many people get vaccinated. I know these things, but my boss doesn't. He has the background necessary to understand it, but he hasn't taken the time to think it through. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get sick from the side effects. He knows that if he gets the vaccine, he might get the disease anyway. "Common sense" tells him that this is not a great deal. Somehow, we have to reach people and move them past "common sense" into the realm of science. I think my boss can understand it, but first he has to hear an argument that he can think about, and I know I haven't seen it. The fact that Gretchen Whitmer tells me the vaccine is "safe and effective" means something to me, but for a Republican voter, it doesn't mean much. If he knows that it isn't 100% safe or 100% effective, so he might even be put off by the message.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you are right. But would it hurt you to provide some information?

Yesterday, 04:57 PM	#1026
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,330	I don't know how the often glib Malcolm Gladwell's theory is holding up, 12 years after this article was written by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy: Quote: Using Gladwell's "the power of context" approach, high student traffic areas on the Chicago campus were designated as vaccination sites and highlighted with maps and arrows to direct students to these areas. Planners attributed increased seasonal flu vaccine uptake to the use of this approach in its communication strategy at the university over the last three years. Just nagging each other to do it might be effective. I could easily see me postponing a shot out of sheer procrastination, but I live on a campus for the elderly and it would have been bad manners. Now I can tell folks I'm fully vaccinated (well, 2nd shot today). ETA: There's also the thought of incentivizing vaccination. Pay people to get it.
	Last edited by Minoosh; Yesterday at 05:02 PM.

Yesterday, 05:14 PM	#1027
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 6,520	Originally Posted by Armitage72 Just about a year ago, Kellyanne Conway notoriously said "This is Covid-19, not Covid-1, folks. You would think that people charged with the World Health Organization facts and figures would be on top of that." A week ago, Ted Nugent decided to try to top her in an online video in which he complained about not being able to go on tour, when there were no shutdowns for COVID 1 through 18. Quote: You know, I guess I would ask you — because I’m addicted to truth, logic and common sense — and my common-sense meter would demand the answer to why weren’t we shut down for COVID one through 18? COVID-1 — and there was a COVID 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 — COVID one through 18 didn’t shut anything down but woah, COVID-19! Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home?
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

Yesterday, 07:13 PM	#1028
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 19,079	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 32,070,784 Deaths: 577,179 New Cases: 77,720 New Deaths: 819

Yesterday, 10:35 PM	#1029
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,986	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home? Kellyanne is. Quote: “This is COVID-19, not COVID-1 folks, and so you would think the people charged with the World Health Organisation facts and figures would be on top of that.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9467561.html

Today, 05:41 AM	#1030
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,415	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain Please tell me he's just trolling the libs with this ... can anyone really be this stupid and not be living in a group home? I've never really understood "I'll make myself look like a complete idiot, and it will make someone else look bad." Many years ago, in the days of Usenet, the apparently mentally ill creator of the HYBRID RPG spent years posting rambling excerpts from their creation on rec.games.frp.super-heroes. Someone theorized that it was all an elaborate prank at the expense of the other users. Someone else argued that that would be like going out to a public place and starting to scream while defecating yourself, and doing it almost every day for years. After several years, you would then announce "Ha, ha! I tricked all of you. I was only pretending to be deranged." You've still spent years soiling yourself in public, regardless of how people feel about it.