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Old 17th August 2018, 06:39 AM   #281
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
To me atheism looks like a dogma
It isn't. The absence of dogma is not a dogma.

Quote:
despite my attempts to prove its falsity. ........
You've attempted to prove many things here. You've never come anywhere near success.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:46 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
To me atheism looks like a dogma despite my attempts to prove its falsity. But that is in the past, nowadays I do not waste my time on useless discussions of the atheist dogma.
What is the "atheist dogma"? I am an atheist and I have not the foggiest clue what it might be that you refer to.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:59 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
To me atheism looks like a dogma...
Perhaps you could list a few tenets of this suspected dogma and enlist the atheists you've chosen to surround yourself with here to help you determine whether you're right about it being dogma.

Quote:
...despite my attempts to prove its falsity.
Non sequitur. Your effort to prove the existence of God and the reality of Buddhist reincarnation have no bearing on whether atheists have a dogma. Even in the most favorable case where atheism is shown to be a dogma, there's nothing about the concept of dogma that requires it to be true or false.

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But that is in the past, nowadays I do not waste my time on useless discussions of the atheist dogma.
Except, of course, to bring it up here and now. If you're going to accuse atheism of being a dogma, you had better be ready to discuss it to the point of proving that accusation. Otherwise it's just intellectual cowardice.
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Old 17th August 2018, 08:08 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Perhaps you could list a few tenets of this suspected dogma and enlist the atheists you've chosen to surround yourself with here to help you determine whether you're right about it being dogma.



Non sequitur. Your effort to prove the existence of God and the reality of Buddhist reincarnation have no bearing on whether atheists have a dogma. Even in the most favorable case where atheism is shown to be a dogma, there's nothing about the concept of dogma that requires it to be true or false.



Except, of course, to bring it up here and now. If you're going to accuse atheism of being a dogma, you had better be ready to discuss it to the point of proving that accusation. Otherwise it's just intellectual cowardice.
It is a common reversal of the burden of proof. And one which in this instance I am happy to shoulder. In a rush of blood to the head, the theist will state that the claimant bears the burden of proof so now you are found out, you heathen. My stock answer to that is simple. I willingly shoulder that burden of proof. My claim is that I believe in no god or gods of any sort. My evidence is that I do not believe in any god or gods of any sort. I have met my burden of proof. You (the theist) can either accept that which you should, or you can claim that I am lying, or you can claim that I secretly believe in some god. In any event, if you do not accept that I believe in no god/s once again the burden falls back to you (the theist) to prove your claim that somehow I do believe in some god/s but am hiding it. Because reasons. What reasons? "You claim to be an atheist because you just want to sin?" Well no, I could claim to be a christian and simply "sin" just as much if not more. And besides, the whole concept of "sin" is religiously mandated victim blaming.

And so it goes. I find it astonishing how those of faith are convinced that there must exist some "Atheist Bible" to which we all adhere. Frankly, organising atheists is akin to attempting to herd cats. Does that diversity perturb me? No, not in the slightest, I rejoice in that diversity.

The religious don't much like that.
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Old 17th August 2018, 09:05 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
...the theist will state that the claimant bears the burden of proof so now you are found out, you heathen.
To assert that there is no god putatively bears a burden of proof. Assertions of non-existence are not often logically or empirically defensible, and some atheists unwisely make them. Hence my brand of atheism is simply that I see no evidence for the existence of a god, and since the concept is fairly preposterous a piori I believe and behave as if there is no god. I'm more of a null-hypothesis atheist, which I guess some would pigeon-hole as agnostic.

Falsifying atheism would mean proving the existence of a god, and despite Buddha's protests to the contrary he's been doing quite a lot toward that end. He's just not very good at it.

Quote:
...you can claim that I secretly believe in some god. In any event, if you do not accept that I believe in no god/s once again the burden falls back to you (the theist) to prove your claim that somehow I do believe in some god/s but am hiding it.
That was certainly Jabba's crusade. Over at Talk Stats he flatly accused statisticians of being closet theists, and that if they didn't accept his proof they were merely "official" statisticians, not apparently real ones. And then his argument, more often than not, was to beg people to admit they believed in gods and souls. He was firmly convinced that skepticism regarding reincarnation was just a sham, and that he only had to find some magical pseudo-statistical tap-dance that revealed skeptics for the mystics they "really" are.

Quote:
And besides, the whole concept of "sin" is religiously mandated victim blaming.
Indeed. I don't want to be evil, but the arbitrary fiats that create "sin" in religion don't constitute the universal yardstick. There's no general morality in, "Thou shalt not sell liquor on Sunday." Yet that's held up as being a secularly moral thing such as to compel legal restriction.

Quote:
I find it astonishing how those of faith are convinced that there must exist some "Atheist Bible" to which we all adhere. Frankly, organising atheists is akin to attempting to herd[ing] cats. Does that diversity perturb me? No, not in the slightest, I rejoice in that diversity.
Exactly. Atheism is not a belief system no matter how much its opponents want to make it look like one. Now some individual atheists may have a belief system that doesn't involve a god. Atheism is not an absence of all belief systems. It's just the absence of a theistic belief system, the way I look at it. The rest is diversity. That leads to the notion that unless atheists all believe the same thing, there can't be any validity to atheism. I just have to laugh at that. Look at all the diversity among theists.
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:30 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is a common reversal of the burden of proof. And one which in this instance I am happy to shoulder. In a rush of blood to the head, the theist will state that the claimant bears the burden of proof so now you are found out, you heathen. My stock answer to that is simple. I willingly shoulder that burden of proof. My claim is that I believe in no god or gods of any sort. My evidence is that I do not believe in any god or gods of any sort. I have met my burden of proof. You (the theist) can either accept that which you should, or you can claim that I am lying, or you can claim that I secretly believe in some god. In any event, if you do not accept that I believe in no god/s once again the burden falls back to you (the theist) to prove your claim that somehow I do believe in some god/s but am hiding it. Because reasons. What reasons? "You claim to be an atheist because you just want to sin?" Well no, I could claim to be a christian and simply "sin" just as much if not more. And besides, the whole concept of "sin" is religiously mandated victim blaming.

And so it goes. I find it astonishing how those of faith are convinced that there must exist some "Atheist Bible" to which we all adhere. Frankly, organising atheists is akin to attempting to herd cats. Does that diversity perturb me? No, not in the slightest, I rejoice in that diversity.

The religious don't much like that.

Oh dear.

You will be provoking The Big Dog into levering Stalin into this.
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:32 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
While it is definitely true that some atheists can be pretty dogmatic, atheism pretty much by definition cannot be a dogma.

How can you be dogmatic if you don't have a dogma to be dogmatic about?
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:44 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can you be dogmatic if you don't have a dogma to be dogmatic about?
"Dogmatic" can mean arrogant and opinionated regardless of what's being stated. I know a few atheists personally who are, for lack of a better word, jerks about it. They could be described as "dogmatic" about atheism without describing atheism as a dogma.
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Old 17th August 2018, 11:30 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
How can you be dogmatic if you don't have a dogma to be dogmatic about?
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
"Dogmatic" can mean arrogant and opinionated regardless of what's being stated. I know a few atheists personally who are, for lack of a better word, jerks about it. They could be described as "dogmatic" about atheism without describing atheism as a dogma.
A dogma is a statement that is not proved but is taken as undeniable. It refers to the form of the statement, not its content.

Therefore an atheist can hold his atheism as a dogma. It is not frequent, because the atheism is usually an act of intellectual resistence against theists and religious societies. But in somme means dominated by atheists some of them are really dogmatics. Environemnt is all... or almost all.
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Old 18th August 2018, 03:54 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
"Dogmatic" can mean arrogant and opinionated regardless of what's being stated. I know a few atheists personally who are, for lack of a better word, jerks about it. They could be described as "dogmatic" about atheism without describing atheism as a dogma.

Oh I certainly agree that some atheists can be jerks, but are they being jerks as a result of their atheism, or are they just jerks anyway.

There is no atheist dogma as such. Well non that I am aware of anyway. I wonder what such a dogma would look like:

1. Lack of belief in any gods.

2. See line one.

3. See line one.

..........

Now I acknowledge that some atheists can be quite strident in condemning the effects of religious teachings, (as they faithfully refer to their own dogma), and I put my hand up as one of these. But this is not as a result of referring to a dogma of their own to support their stance. It is because the effects of the religious teachings, are harmful to others, (and sometimes themselves), and a special atheist insight, (gained from reading atheist dogma), is not needed to recognise this.
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Old 19th August 2018, 10:36 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by MikeG
Originally Posted by Buddha View Post
To me atheism looks like a dogma
It isn't. The absence of dogma is not a dogma.

Quote:
despite my attempts to prove its falsity. ........
You've attempted to prove many things here. You've never come anywhere near success.
What "Buddha" manufactured here is that there are atheists that are pretty rigid and that resembles any kind of dogmatic position ... hence [draw upon every imaginable fallacy the usual "Buddha" way] ... atheism must be a dogma. That is, what hundreds of thousands have repeated during decades, but presented as a personal discovery (what should one expect? It's "Buddha"!)
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Old 19th August 2018, 09:40 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh I certainly agree that some atheists can be jerks, but are they being jerks as a result of their atheism, or are they just jerks anyway.
I've seen both, personally. There are all kinds out there.
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Old Yesterday, 01:26 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh I certainly agree that some atheists can be jerks, but are they being jerks as a result of their atheism, or are they just jerks anyway.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I've seen both, personally. There are all kinds out there.

Be interesting to hear your thesis on how atheism promotes jerkism.
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Old Yesterday, 06:29 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting to hear your thesis on how atheism promotes jerkism.
I didn't say it did. I said that I have seen people who are jerks about their atheism and I've seen people who are just jerks. I've also seen atheists who are not jerks, which kind of discounts your proposition that I think atheism "promotes" jerkism.
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Old Today, 03:58 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting to hear your thesis on how atheism promotes jerkism.
Sorry Thor, but I think you have read that incorrectly. It's not what arth actually said.
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