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Old 26th February 2018, 02:46 AM   #321
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Quote:
Black Kites are very nomadic in Australia, where populations ebb and flow with the season and the food supply (Olsen 1995).
http://www.globalraptors.org/grin/Sp...sp?specID=8305

I know from experience that our local birds appear in late spring and disappear again around March.
Considering that black kites elsewhere can migrate in continental ranges, I seriously doubt that they lack the range to move around.
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Old 26th February 2018, 07:45 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
http://www.globalraptors.org/grin/Sp...sp?specID=8305

I know from experience that our local birds appear in late spring and disappear again around March.
Considering that black kites elsewhere can migrate in continental ranges, I seriously doubt that they lack the range to move around.
Your claim was that they have a home range of 100s of kms.
All you really know is that you don’t see them for a while - not where they leave for and how far. I don’t doubt they are nomadic in Australia and are capable of ranging over large areas, but no one seems to have quantified it, this includes the reference papers cited in your link. I’m not saying this to nitpick, but to explain why I’m sceptical of the claims being made without supporting evidence.

This is the problem with the fire use paper. Personal assumptions that are not backed by any scientific evidence.
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Old 26th February 2018, 09:09 PM   #323
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Um so where is the evidence that they dont move around? I havent seen any studies that say they only fly 100m from their nesting site and never an inch more...
We know they can fly long distances (in fact thousands of kilometers) , ours appear and disappear depending on seasonal food availability and have been found in Oz in WA hundreds of kilometers away from their nesting areas.

To me this suggests that any cllaim that they dont move very far from their nesting area is the more dubious claim, as all evidence we do have shows that isnt usually the case. So far the only support for that claim is your say so- show me the study that shows otherwise.
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Old 26th February 2018, 10:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Of course it's another anecdote.
Yes, it is, isn't it?!
And that is why I said:
Quote:
(Very similar to my own observation of love birds in my kitchen: I know what I saw, but if I had to prove what I saw, I would need more than that.)
Which, for some reason, you didn't want to quote!

It might be a good idea for you to go back and read what I actually wrote.
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Old 27th February 2018, 12:13 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Um so where is the evidence that they dont move around?.........
Seriously? On a sceptics site?

Onus.
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Old 27th February 2018, 02:23 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Seriously? On a sceptics site?

Onus.
Yes seriously, I have multiple websites and some links to actual studies done that all say they are mostly migratory birds, capable of flying between continents in some cases(some of which I linked to previously) supported by ancidotal evidence that they do fly long (being out of the suburb I am in) distances

I havent seen anything which says they stay within a small distance of their nesting area and to date no citation for this claim- so I am asking for it

So yes- seriously
(same as I would if someone claims the sun doesnt rise in the east- I would ask for the evidence that it doesnt)
What part of this isnt being skeptical?
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Old 27th February 2018, 07:59 AM   #327
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I've been in the thermal in a sailplane with a raptor off my wingtip looking right at me and hundreds in the sky with him staging to get height to migrate south across the Great Lakes.
No dry season raptor can make a living in the wet in Northern Australia....it's underwater aside from zilch thermals.

Most of you have never in your lives seen rainfall the likes of a monsoon trough....my house in Cairns got 15 mm in 15 minutes the other night and that was not the trough.



Jabiru is in the discussion area. For the metric challenged ...that's 2 " a day for the entire month of January.
The major highway to Katherine is very often under 6' of water for miles and miles.
Of COURSE the raptors move.

Last edited by macdoc; 27th February 2018 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 28th February 2018, 04:57 PM   #328
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Black Kites are widespread throughout Eurasia, Africa, and Australia. Some populations are migratory and some are resident. In Australia, Black Kites are largely nomadic and probably move around a lot in response to seasonal changes and other challenges/opportunities macdoc describes.

These birds are commensal with humans in many circumstances, feeding from garbage dumps, slaughterhouses, scavenging roadkill, etc. They also take fish, amphibians, small mammals, insects, etc. They are an ultimate human-associated generalist.

During the breeding season, individual birds by necessity become quite sedentary, in addition to the several weeks (~20 days?)they must spend jostling for territories, building nests, etc., the nesting birds are tied to their breeding home range area. Once the eggs are laid, incubation will take another 35 days or so, fledging will take an additional 45 days, and the young birds are not likely to be independent for another 30 days thereafter. So that's a rough estimate of 20 + 35 + 45 + 30 = 130 days at a minimum that the birds are not just free to wander wherever they see smoke on the horizon.

In Australia, nesting occurs during Jul–Nov (dry season). This is described as highly variable, but I assume that birds nesting in Jabiru, for example, would start in July so the young are independent before the worst of the rainy season sets in. Perhaps where the monsoon is not so extreme they get started a little later, but I don't know.

So...during the height of the dry season (when the fires are burning, right?) those birds cannot access fires that aren't in proximity to their individual home ranges. They can wander around chasing smoke December–May, but I don't expect much burning happening then as it's the wet season. As it gets dry enough to burn in May and June, that's when the birds don't have the freedom to chase any far away fires.

THIS is what I mean when I assert that each individual bird does not have many opportunities to forage along fire fronts over the course of a year. It might be just a few days within the foraging range during their sedentary nesting period and really unpredictable during the rest of the year when the birds are more mobile but conditions are less conducive to fire.

Australian friends, I'd appreciate your feedback on whether this makes any sense.

Source life history info on Black Kite.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:55 PM   #329
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Up north you have your classic 'two seasons a year- wet and dry (wet nov to april)
By the time you get down as far as Brisbane, you start to get a more temperate climate system happening, less major wet season, more rain during the winter months
Get down as far south as Sydney and the rainfall is pretty much even(ish) all year, only minor peaks around march
Go further south again to Melbourne, and you find jan-march are some of the driest months of the year

Australia is a really BIG place- its only just smaller than the 48 joined states of the US mainland (ie excluding Alaska), yet its total population is the equivalent of three New Yorks....

eta and the Black Kite is found all along the east coast right down to Melbourne and over much of the continent east to west as well, only South Australia and the sothern part of Western Australia seem to have defeated them (mostly because thats basically the Simpson Desert...)
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Last edited by Dabop; 2nd March 2018 at 04:01 PM. Reason: eta
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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:11 PM   #330
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Quote:
Australian friends, I'd appreciate your feedback on whether this makes any sense.
I think you underestimate the number of fires and the range of kites.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
I think you underestimate the number of fires and the range of kites.
I did mention it up thread

Quote:
For that period, the Commission calculated the number of bushfires in Australia varied from approximately 46,000 to 62,000 fires per year, with an average of close to 54,000 fires per year.

The Insititute of Criminology - which used data from fire agencies from 1995-06 to 2005-06 - said the Commission's figures agreed "quite closely" with their own average of nearly 52,000 fires per year.
And personally I would think that number is probably way underreported, as many fires would happen in places nobody is basically there to see and the summer lightning storms can be quite intense indeed
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:18 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, it is, isn't it?!
And that is why I said:

Which, for some reason, you didn't want to quote!

It might be a good idea for you to go back and read what I actually wrote.
You so misunderstood my post. Maybe you should go back and read mine again. Take the anecdote comment off, which was a jest and see if it doesn't read differently to you.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 10:50 AM   #333
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Those figures very likely do not include brush control fires or aboriginal fires as they tend to be small and limited.

Van Arnheim Land may have no reporting at all.

I could not recall how many dozens of fires we saw in a week at Kakadu in the dry.,

We got some very nice sunsets out of it tho



This ancient and modern fire tools



Punch the little ball with the injector and toss it our of the chopper. Instant fire.

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Old 3rd March 2018, 06:07 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
I think you underestimate the number of fires and the range of kites.
The number of fires is less relevant than their spatial distribution and return interval.

In what way have I underestimated the range of the kites?
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Old 3rd March 2018, 07:45 PM   #335
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https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...63659409477194

Quote:
Male raptors spend a considerable time
foraging away from their mates
Quote:
Furthermore, the
female provided food for herself until about
day 20,
Top of page 7 in pdf linked above showed that the males observed spent a significant time away from the nest varying between 40% and approximately 10% of the time away from the nest at different times

from https://australianmuseum.net.au/black-kite
Quote:
Habitat

The Black Kite is found in a variety of habitats, from timbered watercourses to open plains, and is often observed in and around outback towns. Although it is more normally seen in small groups, the Black Kite may form huge flocks of many thousands of birds, especially during grasshopper plagues. No other Australian bird of prey is seen in such large flocks.
Feeding and Diet

The Black Kite preys on lizards, small mammals and insects, especially grasshoppers. It also is a scavenger, and frequents tips in outback towns. Black Kites also gather in flocks around bush fires, and eagerly pounce on small animals as these flee the flames. Both live and dead (carrion) prey is eaten.
Other behaviours and adaptations

They often gather and soar above fires, shooters or workers, watching for flushed prey.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 08:17 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Those figures very likely do not include brush control fires or aboriginal fires as they tend to be small and limited.

Van Arnheim Land may have no reporting at all.

I could not recall how many dozens of fires we saw in a week at Kakadu in the dry.,

We got some very nice sunsets out of it tho

https://drscdn.500px.org/photo/14872...2bacc0435d11a4

This ancient and modern fire tools

https://drscdn.500px.org/photo/14872...102ba8363fd329

Punch the little ball with the injector and toss it our of the chopper. Instant fire.
Demonstrate it to a Raptor and see if the light bulb goes on over their head.
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Old 4th March 2018, 09:34 AM   #337
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A corvid might figure it out just to be a prankster tho pushing the plunger trigger might be a step too far.....no hands n all
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Old 4th March 2018, 02:29 PM   #338
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Here is what these things mean:

Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Top of page 7 in pdf linked above showed that the males observed spent a significant time away from the nest varying between 40% and approximately 10% of the time away from the nest at different times
Quote:Male raptors spend a considerable time foraging away from their mates.


This is raptor breeding biology 101. It is nearly always the case that the female takes primary responsibility for incubation and brooding and that the male's job is to obtain food for himself, his mate, and the nestlings before they're strong enough to be left alone for a bit. There is an important matter of scale, however. Away from the nest still means within their territory. These birds are NOT nomadic during the breeding season; they are attached to their territory. If anything, this paper illustrates how important it is for males to stick close by to prevent neighboring males from attempting an extra-pair copulation.

As for the females:

Quote:Furthermore, the female provided food for herself until about day -20,

Right. For about 3 weeks before the first egg is even laid, the female does not leave the nest site. This is when she begins to rely on the male to provide 100% of her food. For 3 weeks before, during the few days of egg-laying, during all of incubation, and during at least the first week of the nestlings' lives, the female does not even leave the nest, let alone leave the territory.

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Old 4th March 2018, 09:58 PM   #339
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So far you havent said anything I didnt already, except that they 'dont leave their territory'- so can you point out to me exactly how big is their territory, and can you show the papers confirming that the male doesnt leave it?
Thanks in anticipation
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Old 5th March 2018, 09:46 AM   #340
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I'm not exactly sure how this applies to the topic at hand. Of course nesting raptors will stick nearby to feed their chicks ..but they ain't nesting when the territory is underwater.
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Old 5th March 2018, 01:53 PM   #341
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Westerners just can't connect with nature?

Originally Posted by Futurity
Part of the reason Westerners may have trouble accepting the concept of firehawks, Mark Bonta suggests, is our lack of connection to our environment: “Westerners have done little but isolate ourselves from nature,” he says. Yet those who make a point of connecting with our earth in some form—he uses turkey hunters as an example—”have enormous knowledge because they interact with a species. When you get into conservation [that knowledge] is even more important.”

Aborginal people “don’t see themselves as superior to or separated from animals. They are walking storehouses of knowledge,” says Bonta...
http://www.futurity.org/firehawks-fire-birds-1687992-2
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Old 5th March 2018, 02:02 PM   #342
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Smithsonian Magazine slams the ways of "Western science"...


When Scientists “Discover” What Indigenous People Have Known For Centuries

When it supports their claims, Western scientists value what Traditional Knowledge has to offer. If not, they dismiss it.

Originally Posted by Smithsonian Magazine
But while new to Western science, the behaviors of the firehawks have long been known to the Alawa, MalakMalak, Jawoyn and other Indigenous peoples of northern Australia whose ancestors occupied their lands for tens of thousands of years. Unlike most scientific studies, Bonta and Gosford’s team foregrounded their research in traditional Indigenous ecological knowledge. They also note that local awareness of the behavior of the firehawks is ingrained within some of their ceremonial practices, beliefs and creation accounts.

The worldwide attention given to the firehawks article provides an opportunity to explore the double standard that exists concerning the acceptance of Traditional Knowledge by practitioners of Western science...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...edge-180968216
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Old 5th March 2018, 02:03 PM   #343
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Quote:
Bonta notes some “old reports from Texas and Florida” about caracaras setting fires as well.

When I google caracaras + fire, I get a lot of links to articles about fires in Caracas, Venezuela!
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Old 6th March 2018, 06:08 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
So far you havent said anything I didnt already, except that they 'dont leave their territory'- so can you point out to me exactly how big is their territory, and can you show the papers confirming that the male doesnt leave it?
Thanks in anticipation
Yeah, that's tough to nail down as the species has such a huge distribution and makes use of a wide variety of habitats. It doesn't look like spatial use of nesting territory has been studied (or at least published) for the Australian population. I did find this paper that describes habitat use by breeding Black Kites in northern Italy. From the Abstract: " . . . kites foraged preferentially near water, over extensively managed grassland and within 1 km of nest-sites." Just buffering a 1000m radius around the nest that would mean foraging restricted to an area in the neighborhood of 314 ha - even more sedentary that I thought!

I found another paper on Red Kites (same genus) suggesting they were highly variable in breeding season foraging area with a median ~65 km2. That makes a lot more sense for a large-bodied raptor, and is more in line with what I envisioned, i.e., tens of square kilometers.
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Old 5th May 2018, 07:28 PM   #345
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CSIRO takes the activity as a given.

Quote:
Bird brains needed to find food

Our arid and often nutrient-poor country has forged bird brains capable of feats of intellect not seen anywhere else in the animal kingdom (ignoring us, of course).

Ravens love bread, but bread means more than food to their sophisticated minds. Ravens have been observed picking up bread, flying it to a pond and placing it in the water. The bird waits until fish begin to nibble at the bread and catches them, enjoying a big seafood dinner instead of a little bit of bread.

Crow using bread to catch fish
Fish are food, not friends. Photo: Baloozer/Flickr
For ravens, bread is an abstract token, explains Professor Kaplan, “The animal is actually delaying a response, or planning ahead. They are trading it in for a better meal, and that is deferred gratification – we have that as humans. It’s now been shown that birds have the capability of planning for the future.”

Professor Kaplan also relayed another example of delayed gratification, a potentially scorchy one.

“The black kite — not only do they cooperate and play together — but they’re probably the only bird species that has learned that fire can produce food. When there’s a grass fire, they pick up a piece of ember on the unburnt side, as long as it’s still burning, fly it to a dry grass area and start a new fire. And then they wait. They look through the charcoal for lizards and insects and clean them up.
https://blog.csiro.au/australia-breeds-brainy-birds/
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Old 5th May 2018, 08:54 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Up north you have your classic 'two seasons a year- wet and dry (wet nov to april)
By the time you get down as far as Brisbane, you start to get a more temperate climate system happening, less major wet season, more rain during the winter months
Get down as far south as Sydney and the rainfall is pretty much even(ish) all year, only minor peaks around march
Go further south again to Melbourne, and you find jan-march are some of the driest months of the year

Australia is a really BIG place- its only just smaller than the 48 joined states of the US mainland (ie excluding Alaska), yet its total population is the equivalent of three New Yorks....

eta and the Black Kite is found all along the east coast right down to Melbourne and over much of the continent east to west as well, only South Australia and the sothern part of Western Australia seem to have defeated them (mostly because thats basically the Simpson Desert...)

Six seasons are a better model. Non-indigenous people have not been content with
two seasons and add “the build up.”

http://www.environment.gov.au/topics...nt/six-seasons
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Old 5th May 2018, 10:33 PM   #347
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Well macdoc I was sceptical, but you have convinced me. Thanks.
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Old 6th May 2018, 12:35 AM   #348
dann
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What convinced you, lionking? There's nothing new in the article on the blog from "17 January 2017"! Not one single bit of hard evidence. In the bushfires since then, with people out there specifically trying to catch sight of and film birds setting fires ... nothing! Still nothing but anecdotal evidence. And in the meantime, professional firefighters don't seem to consider birds as the primary suspects, not even when there are "several spot fires."

Quote:
The Rural Fire Service assistant commissioner, Shane Fitzsimmons, said evidence suggested the fire was deliberately lit.
“It is sickening and reprehensible,” Fitzsimmons said. “How dare anyone in society think that they can deliberately light a fire, endangering first and foremost all of these men and women, the vast majority of whom are volunteers, putting their lives on the line to bring these fires under control.”
Fire chief denounces 'sickening' act of lighting Sydney bushfire (Apr. 15, 2018)

It's weird that they don't immediately go: THE CROW DID IT! IT'S THE CROW!!!

Like the detectives in this recent bushfire, bird watchers might also consider taking a look "at CCTV footage." They've been very good in recent years whenever there's a large comet sighting in a populated area. There's even CCTV Bigfoot sightings (not very convincing!) and flying-saucer crashes (also not convincing), but so far: no intentional or accidental filming of arsonist birds!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th May 2018, 02:26 AM   #349
Dabop
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What convinced you, lionking? There's nothing new in the article on the blog from "17 January 2017"! Not one single bit of hard evidence. In the bushfires since then, with people out there specifically trying to catch sight of and film birds setting fires ... nothing! Still nothing but anecdotal evidence. And in the meantime, professional firefighters don't seem to consider birds as the primary suspects, not even when there are "several spot fires."




It's weird that they don't immediately go: THE CROW DID IT! IT'S THE CROW!!!

Like the detectives in this recent bushfire, bird watchers might also consider taking a look "at CCTV footage." They've been very good in recent years whenever there's a large comet sighting in a populated area. There's even CCTV Bigfoot sightings (not very convincing!) and flying-saucer crashes (also not convincing), but so far: no intentional or accidental filming of arsonist birds!
Getting a bit of a stretch there mate....

That fire was (as mentioned in the first line of your own quote)

Quote:
The Rural Fire Service assistant commissioner, Shane Fitzsimmons, said evidence suggested the fire was deliberately lit.
And in many cases, the nearest CCTV might be a full days drive away...... or more.....
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:07 AM   #350
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Quote:
In the bushfires since then, with people out there specifically trying to catch sight of and film birds setting fires ... nothing!
you seem to have no concept of the size of the region ...you are a victim of your own limitations. The birds go on hunting as they've done for milennia using every trick they know to survive.

I suppose you would find it unbeleivable that a motherbird would sing a password to her chicks while they are in the shell.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-eggs-to-sing/

Took a while to find a moth too...
https://academic.oup.com/ae/article-...rectedFrom=PDF


It's also the wet. Not much to burn


not the best time to visit


and yes there are size large crocs in that area of the road crossing ...

another road crossing


and if they are there ...it means the water is down as the dry starts.
Quote:
Visiting Twin Falls is only possible in the dry-season and once the site has been opened by Parks (usually around July sometime).
https://venturenorth.com.au/northern...-creek-kakadu/

Last edited by macdoc; 6th May 2018 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:40 AM   #351
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As an example, I compared Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory...

Population 16,230 (2007)
Area 97,000 km2 (37,451.9 sq mi)

At about the same size, you have in the USA- Indiana

Population 6.38million (2007)
Area 94,326 km2 (36,419.55 sq mi)

(figures from wikipedia)

I have no doubt there are city blocks in some US cities that have more than the entire Arnhem Land population....
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:45 AM   #352
dann
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
you seem to have no concept of the size of the region ...you are a victim of your own limitations. The birds go on hunting as they've done for milennia using every trick they know to survive.

So many more places and opportunities to film fire-starting birds! By now every firefighter ought to be aware of the hypothesis. Presumably they are the first to arrive at the scene - apart from the locals who report the fires, maybe, but since they live in the areas, they should also have heard about it by now. And yet, no footage so far!

Quote:
I suppose you would find it unbeleivable that a motherbird would sing a password to her chicks while they are in the shell.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-eggs-to-sing/

You suppose wrong. What I find unbelievable is that the birds do so deliberately: "Superb fairy-wren (Malurus cyaneus) mothers sing to their unhatched eggs to teach the embryo inside a 'password'." When the article says about the researchers that "they noticed that female fairy-wrens were singing to their unhatched eggs," I would also like to know how they distinguish between birds simply singing in their nests and birds singing to (!) their eggs. I'm not sure that I would be able to tell the difference.

Quote:
Took a while to find a moth too...
https://academic.oup.com/ae/article-...rectedFrom=PDF

It's also the wet. Not much to burn

Well, congratulations with your moths. I don't see any point, but still ...
Unlike your birds, Darwin's moths aren't mere conjecture. Moths sucking nectar have actually been filmed! Birds starting fires ... no, not so much!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th May 2018, 05:55 AM   #353
dann
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
And in many cases, the nearest CCTV might be a full days drive away...... or more.....

Yes, in some cases the nearest CCTVs are very far away from the fires ... and in some cases they aren't, apparently:

Quote:
Detectives believe several spot fires began in the Leacock Reserve area on Friday night, and have looked at CCTV footage in the area.
Fire chief denounces 'sickening' act of lighting Sydney bushfire (The Guardian, Apr. 15, 2018)

Still, no arsonist-bird footage!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th May 2018, 06:09 AM   #354
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You do realise that you are talking about a fire less than 20km away from the cbd of the largest city in Australia in a national park????
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Old 6th May 2018, 08:44 AM   #355
dann
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You do realize that it's an actual quotation, right?!

"Detectives believe several spot fires began in the Leacock Reserve area on Friday night, and have looked at CCTV footage in the area."

So don't blame me. Blame the detectives - or the reporter - if you think that it's not true that they looked at CCTV footage to determine if the fire was natural or deliberately lit:

"The Rural Fire Service assistant commissioner, Shane Fitzsimmons, said evidence suggested the fire was deliberately lit."


Leacocks Regional Park Bushfire (Karen Pezzimenti, Apr. 16, 2018)
Huge Sydney bushfire suspected to be a 'sickening and reprehensible' act of arson (News Now, Apr. 16, 2018)
Crews hoping to contain Sydney bushfire (Mercury News, Apr. 16, 2018)
RAID Moorebank (Apr. 16, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th May 2018 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 6th May 2018, 09:33 AM   #356
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Comprehension not a strong point ....it was some 150 years before Darwin's moth was filmed. It was a conjecture that it even existed.

Quote:
Darwin's orchid: film of the missing pollinator « Why Evolution Is True
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...-missing-polli...
Dec 12, 2011 - In a comment on last week's post on orchids, reader André Schuiteman, whose team discovered the first night-blooming orchid described in that post, calls our attention to a remarkable film showing a different orchid, Angraecum sesquipedale ("Darwin's orchid), being pollinated by the long-tongued moth, ..
and https://www.theguardian.com/science/...rwin-evolution

No one mentioned purposeful in terms of the fairy wren .....it's a survival mechanism.....like fire and food. Mom sings the password to the chicks in the egg.
If the foreign chick does not sing it back ....it dies from lack of food.

Any number of birds tho show foresight ..including the crow feeding a food item to the gold fish shown above to get a better food item and the kites that hunt in an organized pack detailed earlier.

...there is a huge list if you care to actually read the literature instead of hanging irrational doubt out as a badge of "skepticism".

If you really think that outback fire wardens are in the least "busy" trying to film what they already know as behaviour ......well a bit more unreality from you.
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Old 6th May 2018, 10:17 AM   #357
dann
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Back to square one: 'science has been wrong before so my pet hypothesis must be true.'
Pointing out that we have nothing but anecdotal evidence of your hypothetical fire-setting birds really isn't "irrational doubt as a badge of "skepticism"", however much you prefer to think so. It's what rational skeptics tell the woos all the time when they claim that they are brothers in spirit with guys like Galilei or Darwin, their beliefs are real, but science just doesn't take them seriously ... yet.
By the way, the article I quoted mentioned purposeful. See my highlights. I don't know if the actual scientists said so too, or if it's a misunderstanding that the journalist has added to the story.
Where did you get the quotation marks in "busy"??! If firefighters see something that indicates a possible cause of fire, they would obviously report it. If the question is contentious, they would obviously try to document it and hand it over to the detectives.

You do know that filming anything was a little more difficult 150 years ago than it is today, don't you?! Just saying ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 6th May 2018, 02:09 PM   #358
Dabop
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You do realize that it's an actual quotation, right?!

"Detectives believe several spot fires began in the Leacock Reserve area on Friday night, and have looked at CCTV footage in the area."

So don't blame me. Blame the detectives - or the reporter - if you think that it's not true that they looked at CCTV footage to determine if the fire was natural or deliberately lit:

"The Rural Fire Service assistant commissioner, Shane Fitzsimmons, said evidence suggested the fire was deliberately lit."


Leacocks Regional Park Bushfire (Karen Pezzimenti, Apr. 16, 2018)
Huge Sydney bushfire suspected to be a 'sickening and reprehensible' act of arson (News Now, Apr. 16, 2018)
Crews hoping to contain Sydney bushfire (Mercury News, Apr. 16, 2018)
RAID Moorebank (Apr. 16, 2018)
You do realize that it is reporting about a 'bushfire' in the middle of the city...
It's less than 20 km away from the CBD of the largest city in Australia...
Of course there are bloody cctv cameras around...
(edit to add, USAians may not know about these km's of which I speak, thats 12 olden days miles)
;-)

What makes you think that every inch of Oz is covered by cctv???

You are taking one fire (determined to be lit by arsonists), and somehow extrapolating that to mean that every fire everywhere else is identical!!!

I mean there are alligators in the USA, Central Park is in the USA, therefore there must be alligators in Central Park.....
(and dont forget the Alaskan alligators)

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Last edited by Dabop; 6th May 2018 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 7th May 2018, 02:14 AM   #359
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Given other witnessesed examples of intelligent bird behaviour this does not seem like an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. It does however seem like something that should be researched and worth putting in the hours of observation and filming.

It is that time of year being the beginning of the cool dry period up here. These raptors can always be seen in numbers circling and swooping around the many small, cool bushfires that are starting to consume a season’s worth of dry grass and fallen timber. If I had more time I might have pulled off the road on my way home today and watched the birds working one such fire.
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Old 7th May 2018, 01:42 PM   #360
dann
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
What makes you think that every inch of Oz is covered by cctv???

What makes you think that I think that every inch of Oz is covered by CCTV???

Quote:
You are taking one fire (determined to be lit by arsonists), and somehow extrapolating that to mean that every fire everywhere else is identical!!!

I am?! That's news to me! Where exactly am I extrapolating that?! What I've been pointing out for a very long time is that this alleged phenomenon with so much anecdotal evidence behind it still hasn't been captured on film, in spite of all the cameras everywhere. Apparently some bushfires do break out in areas with CCTV, and some people make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds - so far with nothing to show for it.
If I were to argue like you and macdoc, I would now resort to something along the lines of: After 40,000 years of eyewitness reports - and still not one second of actual footage!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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