ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags physics

Reply
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:19 AM   #281
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
There's just too many straw men, personal insults, evasions, and disingenuous statements in that last post to even bother with. It's a shame, baron, that you don't have any interest in trying to honestly discuss your belief, especially given that you claim to have put so much time and effort into formulating it.

You've browbeaten me into submission. You can count that as a "win", if you like.
I knew with 100% certainty that as soon as I asked you to detail your views on the matter you'd come out with something like this. One hundred percent. All you're interested is bombarding me with questions in the hope of scoring a gotcha and now you've flounced because I took a stand and said you need to actually engage in the discussion and put forward a point of view.

But something tells me you'll still find time to rebut that, just not to actually enter into an actual discussion of the topic. Shame on you.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:21 AM   #282
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's the difference between "qualia" and "experience", then?
Qualia are part of experience, a subset. Thought is experience but does not necessarily involve qualia. Darat is protesting that qualia are a moot concept on account of how he doesn't experience them, but he is using an incorrect definition and he does experience them, just like everyone else.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:30 AM   #283
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Qualia are part of experience, a subset. Thought is experience but does not necessarily involve qualia. Darat is protesting that qualia are a moot concept on account of how he doesn't experience them, but he is using an incorrect definition and he does experience them, just like everyone else.
Well, the reason why he's doing that is that the definition of qualia is very fuzzy. What's a subset of experience if not another experience?

Qualia are basically quanta of experience, but isn't that experience as well? So why not call them that? The problem is that this insistent distinction gives the impression that the reason for not calling them "experience" is to leave open a door to a sort of not-quite-so-physical aspect of consciousness. Something that'll perpetually remain beyond the purview of science.

So let's try this: how would we detect qualia? We can see the brain experiencing stuff, but how do we break it down to qualia, scientifically speaking?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:31 AM   #284
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,521
Originally Posted by baron View Post
I knew with 100% certainty that as soon as I asked you to detail your views on the matter you'd come out with something like this. One hundred percent.
Congratulations. Have a biscuit.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:37 AM   #285
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, the reason why he's doing that is that the definition of qualia is very fuzzy. What's a subset of experience if not another experience?

Qualia are basically quanta of experience, but isn't that experience as well? So why not call them that? The problem is that this insistent distinction gives the impression that the reason for not calling them "experience" is to leave open a door to a sort of not-quite-so-physical aspect of consciousness. Something that'll perpetually remain beyond the purview of science.
If by 'physical' you mean real, that's not my position at all. It's the opposite. I believe that the conscious field is as real as gravity, as I have said before, not just a part of the universe but perhaps the most fundamental part. It's as real as you can get. I wouldn't, however, like some panpsychists and religious texts, maintain that consciousness is the only thing that is real.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So let's try this: how would we detect qualia? We can see the brain experiencing stuff, but how do we break it down to qualia, scientifically speaking?
If I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. That is inherent in the hard problem. There are not even any theories on how to detect qualia, let alone an experiment.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:43 AM   #286
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
If I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. That is inherent in the hard problem. There are not even any theories on how to detect qualia, let alone an experiment.
Would you consider the possibility, then, that qualia don't exist at all?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:50 AM   #287
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Would you consider the possibility, then, that qualia don't exist at all?
No, because when I am aware of external stimulae, or imagining similar, I experience them. To deny they exist is to deny my own senses, which isn't a good starting point for any investigation or hypothesis.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 05:52 AM   #288
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, because when I am aware of external stimulae, or imagining similar, I experience them. To deny they exist is to deny my own senses, which isn't a good starting point for any investigation or hypothesis.
No, but I'm not asking you to deny experience, but the qualia that supposedly compose them.

What I was previously asking wasn't whether you could detect them, but how you think they could theoretically detect them. If you don't know, then how do you think we're detecting them now?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:01 AM   #289
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, but I'm not asking you to deny experience, but the qualia that supposedly compose them.

What I was previously asking wasn't whether you could detect them, but how you think they could theoretically detect them. If you don't know, then how do you think we're detecting them now?
You're back to subjectivity. You used the first person plural, 'we', intimating that detection would involve all of us detecting the same thing. Of course each of us experiences our own qualia all the time but I can't detect yours and you can't detect mine. If you're happy to admit that qualia exist purely on the basis of your experience then you've proved the point to yourself but nobody else. I have proved it to myself but I've nothing to offer anybody else aside from the advice they stop and think for a moment about what's really going on inside their head. I am literally unable to understand the perspective of someone who denies qualia exist, so that's another stumbling block in the communication.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:05 AM   #290
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
You're back to subjectivity. You used the first person plural, 'we', intimating that detection would involve all of us detecting the same thing. Of course each of us experiences our own qualia all the time but I can't detect yours and you can't detect mine.
Yeah but that doesn't change my question: how do you detect your own qualia? Once we've established that, we'd be one step closer to finding a way for me to detect your qualia.

Quote:
I am literally unable to understand the perspective of someone who denies qualia exist, so that's another stumbling block in the communication.
Think of it this way: if consciousness can be an illusion, why can't qualia?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:10 AM   #291
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but that doesn't change my question: how do you detect your own qualia? Once we've established that, we'd be one step closer to finding a way for me to detect your qualia.
How? I've no idea how. That I do is unquestionable. If I did not I wouldn't be typing this, I wouldn't have any sensory conception of the word at all, no visual 'arena', no auditory awareness, no internal body map, no awareness of smell or taste.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Think of it this way: if consciousness can be an illusion, why can't qualia?
Consciousness isn't an illusion, it's as real as gravity.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:11 AM   #292
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
How? I've no idea how. That I do is unquestionable. If I did not I wouldn't be typing this, I wouldn't have any sensory conception of the word at all, no visual 'arena', no auditory awareness, no internal body map, no awareness of smell or taste.
So you're saying that a p-zombie or a robot that would have the exact same behaviour as you would be impossible? Or would it be conscious as well?

Quote:
Consciousness isn't an illusion, it's as real as gravity.
Ok I thought you were the one who brought this up earlier.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:14 AM   #293
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So you're saying that a p-zombie or a robot that would have the exact same behaviour as you would be impossible? Or would it be conscious as well?
Both. A robot that behaved as I do - or more accurately, had the same potential as I do - would be as conscious as I am*. Therefore, an unconscious robot with those traits would be impossible.

* Although I don't discount the possibility that its consciousness would be different in some way, as I'm sure physical structure would have a bearing on that.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:20 AM   #294
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Both. A robot that behaved as I do - or more accurately, had the same potential as I do - would be as conscious as I am*. Therefore, an unconscious robot with those traits would be impossible.
Good, so far we agree.

I'm still fuzzy on the distinction between experience and qualia. The latter still seem to be the same as the former.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:25 AM   #295
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Good, so far we agree.
That's progress then.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm still fuzzy on the distinction between experience and qualia. The latter still seem to be the same as the former.
Think if it this way. You are relaxing and feel content. The feeling of contentedness is an experience but it is not classed as qualia. You are almost certainly experiencing qualia at the same time, and qualia might contribute to your feeling of contentedness, but the actual experience of contentedness is not in itself qualia.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 06:30 AM   #296
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Think if it this way. You are relaxing and feel content. The feeling of contentedness is an experience but it is not classed as qualia. You are almost certainly experiencing qualia at the same time, and qualia might contribute to your feeling of contentedness, but the actual experience of contentedness is not in itself qualia.
That part I understand, but I still don't see the distinction. The 'qualia' that contribute to the experience ARE also an experience, are they not? If not, then what are they? Are they something distinct from you that you are experiencing? Are they the consciousness field you were talking about?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 07:07 AM   #297
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's the difference between "qualia" and "experience", then?
A distinct without difference being used to prove the difference exists.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 07:29 AM   #298
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,521
Okay, as I've a little more time now, and for the record, I'm going to quote myself from my first post in this thread and elaborate a little:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't think we yet have an adequate explanation of what consciousness is. Certainly not a universally-accepted one. It's so lacking in definition that we also can't define what it means to lose consciousness, and so there is no scientific consensus even on how anaesthetics work.

It seems to me that that's a question that needs answering before we can determine whether or not rocks are conscious.
I think that definitions of consciousness tend towards the tautological. What is consciousness? It's the state of having qualia. What are qualia? They're units of experience. What does it mean to experience something? To be conscious of it.

To quote myself again from earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's really going to come down to how we defined "consciousness". If it's just as "an emergent property of data processing", and if we define "data processing" to include, say, particles appearing and disappearing within the quantum foam, then empty space would have consciousness by definition. It'll come down to what people are trying to communicate and what utility that idea has.

I mean let's say, for example, that we determine that empty space has a minute amount of consciousness. The question then is "so what?" What useful does that tell us about space? What useful does that tell us about consciousness? How will that affect our understanding of cosmic physics? How will that affect our understanding of neurophysics? How will that affect our understanding of anaesthesiology? How will that affect our understanding of psychology?

At the moment, it seems to me that the answers are "nothing" and "not at all". Perhaps that's because I don't yet have a deep enough understanding of the subject. Perhaps that's because the field is relatively new. Or perhaps it's because it does tell us nothing useful.

If it does tell us something useful, then it'll become mainstream. If it doesn't, then it'll go the way of aether.

But the point is that it will come to be defined in science to mean whatever is the most useful way for people within relevant fields to define it. The fuzzy edges will be worked around in the same way they are with other sciences.
Where do I think consciousness comes from? I don't know, but I think it's most likely a product of the brain. Whether that's as an emergent property of the brain's particular wiring, an emergent property of a neural net, an emergent property of data processing, something that the brain is specifically wired to produce due to self-awareness being a survival trait, or something else, I don't know. I see no reason to posit the existence of any new entities to explain it, though. We know, for example, that damage to certain parts of the brain can alter consciousness in predictable and replicable ways (for example, damage to the fusiform gyrus can cause prosopagnosia), and we know that ingesting certain chemicals can alter consciousness in predictable and replicable ways, which suggests that there is an intrinsic relationship between the two.

I see no reason to suppose it's any different to a running computer programme, albeit one that is unquestionably immeasurably more sophisticated and complex than anything created by humans. But I see no reason to suppose that there's a hard line between the computer programmes running in our biological computers and the computer programmes running in our technological computers.

Are things other than humans conscious? To again repeat what I've already said in this thread, there are most likely degrees of consciousness. There are animals that certainly display outward signs of consciousness, albeit a lesser consciousness than humans. How much and how true that is will depend again on how consciousness is defined. A scale with fuzzy edges seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation.

Are inanimate objects conscious? I see no reason to suppose they are, and have heard no cogent arguments for why they should be considered so. But, as I spent the first couple of pages of this thread discussing, it will all come down to how we define consciousness and how we define consciousness will come down to what utility that definition has. I can't see any utility to defining consciousness in a way that would include inanimate objects, but I'm open to hearing a good argument for it.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:19 AM   #299
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
Okay I'm gonna over simplify a little bit of neuro-science a little bit, but this is a fair and honest description of what I think people are usually talking about when they try to verbalize the more esoteric versions of "conscious."

//I'm going to use the over-simplified "Left Brain / Right Brain" concepts here just for simplicity sake and so this thing doesn't turn into a complete novel because one function of the brain I'm going to describe takes place in and is a major function of the left side of the brain and other functions I'm going to describe take place in and are a major function of the right side of the brain. The two hemisphere of the brain are more complex, have more usages, and so forth, then I am going to be describing here.

Also of note the nerves are swapped before they make it to the brain for our purposes. The right hemisphere of your brain takes sensory inputs and controls the left side of your body and vice-versa. I'm gonna try to make sure I am always clear between "Left/Right Brain" and "Left/Right side of the body" but I'm damn near sure to slip up and/or no clarify which I'm talking about at least once so keep this in mind.//


As most people know the two hemispheres of the brain are connected by a large bundle of specialized nerves called the Corpus Callosum which is... like a high speed data bus for the left and right hemispheres to share information.

But until a few years back severing the Corpus Callosum was a... well not common but not like super-rare method of treating very severe seizure disorders that hadn't responded to more traditional methods. Brain surgery was performed the the "link" between the left and right hemispheres was removed or severed resulting in what is known as a "Split Brain Patient."

And... it usually worked. There's still a lot of unknowns but the general idea is the seizures were being caused by information somehow getting corrupted for lack of a better term when moving between the hemispheres and when the brain tried to process it it.... well crashed and had to reboot in a sense and preventing the information from moving between the hemispheres solved the problem.

But there were often side affects. Weird side affects. Many split brain patients started to report they would essentially start disagreeing... with themselves. Their left hand would, for instance, take something out of the kitchen cabinet to eat and their right hand would put it back or even literally slap it out of their own other hand or left and right hand would simultaneously both grab they shirt 'they' wanted to wear that day.

And here's where it gets really weird. Take a split brain patient and put them in a booth so their field of vision is split down the middle, so right eye can't see what left eye sees and vice versa. Now the speech center of our brain are located in the Left Hemisphere, Right Brain can't "talk" for our purposes. So show only the right side of someone's brain a picture, ask the person what they are looking at and they won't be able to tell you, even though they know exactly what they are looking at because the part that knows what they are looking at and the part the can talk aren't talking to each other.

And it gets even weirder. Same setup, split brain patient in a booth that splits their field of vision, in front of them are several random objects. A message that says "Pick up the red toy car" is shown to Right Brain only. The person will pick up the red toy car. Ask him verbally why he is holding the red toy car and he literally won't know because it can't see the message saying "Pick up the red toy car." But, and here's where we reach the rub in my opinion, in almost all cases the person will not say "Jeez I don't know why I picked up the car that's funny why am I doing this" instead.... they'll lie.

Okay actually to be clear not lie. But they will make up a plausible, valid sounding reason. Because that's Left Brain's job. To create a complete, cognizant picture of what is happening and why the person is reacting the way they do. Because the part of our brain that creates our "picture" of the world isn't in charge of everything, as evidence here.

In the same setup and for the same reasons you can ask both halves of a split brain the same question, even a subjective opinion question, and get different answers. Your left and right brain can literally have different favorite colors and favorite songs and favorite foods which is why people with split brains so often literally and non-metaphorically disagree with themselves over things.

It's tempting to think of Left Brain as "the person" since that's the part that speaks and Right Brain as some "add on" but Left Brain doesn't (for lack of a better term) have "facial recognition software" running on it. If Left Brain is "you" then you don't know who your friends and family are.

This is why they can literally put you into an MRI machine and watch you make decisions a tiny fraction of a second before your conscious mind "decides" to make the decision. Because you don't make the decision consciously. You make them unconsciously and a split second later your brain creates a narrative for why you did and as history Process CGP Grey (who's video introduced me to this) pointed out "If you think about it closely, you know you've done this." It's also why after the split the two sides of the brain aren't completely freaking the ever loving hell out, because honestly not all that much has changed for them.

This isn't drag us down into the freewill debate or say that "you" aren't making decisions because those previous parts of you are just as much you as the other.

But I do think this "whole cognizant picture" that Left Brain creates, essentially taking all the inputs and decisions making that all the various parts of the brain perform and making the best narrative it can as to why all of it happen is, for most usages of the term "consciousness."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd February 2019 at 08:25 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:36 AM   #300
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Yeah split brain patients sure throw a lot of old concepts about consciousness under the bus and/or out the window (or both, as now you have two brains able to do two things!)
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:46 AM   #301
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That part I understand, but I still don't see the distinction. The 'qualia' that contribute to the experience ARE also an experience, are they not?
They are.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are they something distinct from you that you are experiencing? Are they the consciousness field you were talking about?
No, they are distortions in the conscious field, as is all experience. Qualia are one element of subjective experience and subjective experience is distortion of the conscious field. In my view.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:53 AM   #302
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 84,992
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I've never seen that argument made, nor seen it used in a definition of qualia.







I'm honestly not sure you're different from anybody else on this score.
Look at even the Wikipedia article and the section with qualia and pzombies.

Close your eyes and imagine a red apple. Do you see a red apple in your mind's eye?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:54 AM   #303
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay I'm gonna over simplify a little bit of neuro-science a little bit, <snip>

But I do think this "whole cognizant picture" that Left Brain creates, essentially taking all the inputs and decisions making that all the various parts of the brain perform and making the best narrative it can as to why all of it happen is, for most usages of the term "consciousness."
All this is true, and I posted about it extensively in a thread maybe a couple of years back, but if your final sentence is a conclusion I don't get it.

My theory deals with the split brain phenomenon very simply. Two primary locales of information processing; two instances of consciousness. Each instance believes that it's in control and that manifests physically, such as when the split brain patient does up the buttons on her shirt with one hand only to undo them with the other. It's two 'people' in the same body, each believing that the other is an annoying, mechanical defect.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 08:59 AM   #304
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,521
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Look at even the Wikipedia article and the section with qualia and pzombies.
You'll have to be more specific. I don't see anything in the p-zombie section of the Wikipedia article on qualia that suggests that qualia of something currently happening do not count as qualia.

Quote:
Close your eyes and imagine a red apple. Do you see a red apple in your mind's eye?
No.

But, having read a couple of articles since this morning, it seems that my experience may not be as universal as I thought, and that I'm in the same 2% of the population as you that cannot consciously call images to mind.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:06 AM   #305
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
They are.
That still sounds like there's no difference, then.

Quote:
No, they are distortions in the conscious field, as is all experience.
How does that work? How would you go around testing that (theoretically)?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:07 AM   #306
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Look at even the Wikipedia article and the section with qualia and pzombies.

Close your eyes and imagine a red apple. Do you see a red apple in your mind's eye?
I think I do, but it's nowhere near as sharp and obvious as if I actually saw one; that's the thing.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:22 AM   #307
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,521
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is why they can literally put you into an MRI machine and watch you make decisions a tiny fraction of a second before your conscious mind "decides" to make the decision. Because you don't make the decision consciously.
I think, in general, too much is made of those experiments. The effect they are describing may be real, but I've not yet read about one experiment of this kind that really has a protocol that I find has a truly satisfactory way to determine exactly when someone made (or thought they made) the conscious decision to move a finger (or whatever other way they're testing the hypothesis). I'm not entirely convinced that the conclusions people draw from these experiments are wholly warranted, and I really don't think that they're as solid as they're usually made out to be.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:23 AM   #308
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
What's even being arguing?

That visualization / memory of something is similar but not identical to direct sensory input of the thing in most cases.

Who's not onboard with that?
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:26 AM   #309
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What's even being arguing?

That visualization / memory of something is similar but not identical to direct sensory input of the thing in most cases.

Who's not onboard with that?
When you say it's not identical I presume you exclude the method by which the information stimulates the brain, which is clearly different in each case by definition?
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:29 AM   #310
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
I'm saying that closing your eyes and imaging an apple, remembering that time you saw an apple, and actually looking at an apple aren't the same thing.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:47 AM   #311
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm saying that closing your eyes and imaging an apple, remembering that time you saw an apple, and actually looking at an apple aren't the same thing.
Well no. In the latter case the information originates externally, in the former it originates internally. I mean, you're right that nobody would dispute this, I just don't understand why you'd make that point.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:49 AM   #312
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well no. In the latter case the information originates externally, in the former it originates internally. I mean, you're right that nobody would dispute this, I just don't understand why you'd make that point.
But the experiences are also different.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 09:49 AM   #313
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
I'm trying with absolute panicked desperation trying to keep this from going down some stupid "Brain in a Jar" rabbit hole.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:06 AM   #314
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Never heard of somthing like this! Although TBH there's plenty I've not heard of, so ...

Have you had this condition diagnosed, then?
That is a silly question, I can't 'visualize' I can manipulate shapes in my brain, I can remember colors, but I can't just 'visualize' red.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:07 AM   #315
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What's the difference between "qualia" and "experience", then?
Qualia is a case of special pleading
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:10 AM   #316
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I think that definitions of consciousness tend towards the tautological.
Only is philosophy behavioral psychology and neurology use different defnitions



This is a broad over view

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK380/
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:17 AM   #317
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Qualia is a case of special pleading
Textbook special pleading.

And not even that it's the "You've explained a hamburger with cheese, now explain a cheeseburger" tactic.

We are our brains. We are not our brains plus something else. Consciousness is a process (well multiple processes probably) not a single definite thing that either exists or doesn't. The mind is not a separate "experience" layered on top of the normal biological process.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:19 AM   #318
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 79,378
Yeah.

The problem I have with qualia is that it treats consciousness as an object rather than an action.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:23 AM   #319
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,466
It's not even that, it's just an extra made up quality put on top of the thing already explained in order to keep pretending there's still a question.

"Science can explain X, but it can't explain Y" when X and Y are the same thing and when we ask the difference between X and Y the answer is going to be "The difference is X is the part that science can explain, Y is the part that science can't explain" repeated a billion time in a million different variations.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd February 2019 at 10:27 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2019, 10:44 AM   #320
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But the experiences are also different.
Ah, that's what I was trying to establish, but Mr Morgue is too focused on providing a running meta-analysis of the discussion and steering the conversation where he and he alone believes it should go.

Not so much now but when I was young I was able to lucid dream, at will, to an extent where is was impossible to distinguish dream experience from external experience. Indeed, 'actual' experience would often be a pale imitation of dream experience. This was full-on lucid dreaming, in which I was fully conscious, fully aware I was dreaming and lying in bed, yet able to interact with the dream world as if it were external.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:40 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.