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Old 9th March 2019, 09:23 AM   #1
crescent
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Golden Rice Finally Released in Bangladesh

Golden Rice Finally Released in Bangladesh

Quote:
The consortium has one overriding rule – any crops that result from their project are to be given – for free – to poor farmers. How is giving free seeds to farmers taking away their rights? This also perpetuates the – farmers saving their own seeds – mythology. When farmers have the opportunity to buy seeds every year, they generally choose to do so, because it is a massive time and resource saver. Saving seeds is a lot of work. It’s cheaper to just buy them. And in this case – they are just being given the seeds. Even if farmers want to save their seeds, they can go right ahead and do so. No one is stopping them or taking away their “sovereignty.”

Another lie is that golden rice doesn’t work.

I already debunked this bit of nonsense:

Quote:
The FDA has specific rules for labeling of approved food products. In order to claim that a food is fortified with a specific vitamin, it has to include a specific amount based on typical American consumption. But the typical southeast Asian eats 25 times the rice of the typical American. So the amount of beta-carotene in the golden rice is not sufficient, given levels of consumption, to be significant for an average American, but is significant for a child growing up in southeast Asia with Vitamin A deficiency.
Rice was targeted because it is a staple crop for half the world, including much of the world that is poor and undernourished – which does not include the US.
When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer, Vitamin A deficiency was still a problem. One of the side projects they allowed us to do was to encourage vegetable growing, although this was not limited to those high in beta-carotene, the gist of it was still to help address deficiencies arising from a diet heavy in rice, wheat, and lentils with little else. I remember that carrots and yams were few and far in-between at the village markets.

I think I remember nurses giving kids a drop of a Vitamin A solution on Polio day (a day when parents are encouraged to get theirs kids a polio vaccine).
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Old 9th March 2019, 09:37 AM   #2
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I have to criticize you for your OP style.

Golden rice is a topic because it is controversial. It is controversial because it is a genetically modified organism (GMO). Nowhere in your post do you mention this. It requires opening the article to see why the hell anyone would be talking about golden rice.
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Old 9th March 2019, 05:18 PM   #3
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What do the yields look like? The problem up until now was never the fact it is a GMO. GMO eggplant with Bt trait has been available in Bangladesh for quite a while now. The problem with golden rice was always that either it produced too little Beta Carotene, or if it produced enough to meet daily requirements, it caused metabolic meltdown in the rice itself, dramatically reducing yields.

Bt eggplant improving lives in Bangladesh

Goodbye to Golden Rice? GM Trait Leads to Drastic Yield Loss and “Metabolic Meltdown”

I would be more interested in yield numbers for this release than a bunch of conspiracy theory propaganda about "anti-GMO" forces causing the delay. So do you have better information on that? Otherwise it is much smarter for the farmer to simply plant higher yielding rice varieties and grow some other local crop that contains Beta carotene and other important vitamins in the freed up acreage. Sweet potatoes being one. Those eggplant being another. Any number of local greens being a third. Almost all fruits and vegetables have naturally occurring levels of vitamin A in some form or another well over what is needed for health.
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Old 9th March 2019, 07:22 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...conspiracy theory propaganda about "anti-GMO" forces causing the delay. So do you have better information on that?
I don't know about the yields - but in the past, some field trials have been destroyed in the past due to anti-GMO issues:

Activists Destroy 'Golden Rice' Field Trial

I was not familiar with the metabolic meltdown issue. Live and learn, the forum has value that way.
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Old 9th March 2019, 07:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I don't know about the yields - but in the past, some field trials have been destroyed in the past due to anti-GMO issues:

Activists Destroy 'Golden Rice' Field Trial

I was not familiar with the metabolic meltdown issue. Live and learn, the forum has value that way.
Well of course there are anti-GMO people out there. And Greenpeace is well known for their skill in propaganda.

So it is my bad for not being more clear. I was objecting to some of the language and the overall bias in the article you used in the OP.

Of course the sides are so diametrically opposed and the rhetoric so passionate, it's really hard to find objective information regarding GMOs.

Anyway if you are interested in the topic a new very critically important GMO is currently in the approval process and needs public support.

SUNY ESF researchers growing 10,000 blight-resistant American chestnut trees

Oh and BTW I also found out about the chestnuts here too! So I agree about the education part.
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Old 9th March 2019, 09:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
if it produced enough to meet daily requirements, it caused metabolic meltdown in the rice itself, dramatically reducing yields.
LOL.

Quote:
I would be more interested in yield numbers for this release than a bunch of conspiracy theory propaganda about "anti-GMO" forces causing the delay.
1) No variety would be commercialized if it resulted in a decreased yield.
2) You claim to not be interested in conspiracy theory propaganda while linking to a conspiracy theory propaganda site run by a couple of complete loons and while repeating pseudo-science claims.

Quote:
Otherwise it is much smarter for the farmer to simply plant higher yielding rice varieties and grow some other local crop that contains Beta carotene and other important vitamins in the freed up acreage. Sweet potatoes being one. Those eggplant being another. Any number of local greens being a third. Almost all fruits and vegetables have naturally occurring levels of vitamin A in some form or another well over what is needed for health.
This let them eat claim mantra doesn't stand up. The problem with the idea that they should just plant some local greens, or fruits, or vegetables, or eggplant is that it doesn't store long term like rice, and getting those poorest of the poor beta carotene for a couple weeks of the year was not the goal.

Last edited by Wayward son; 9th March 2019 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 10th March 2019, 12:15 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
LOL.



1) No variety would be commercialized if it resulted in a decreased yield.
2) You claim to not be interested in conspiracy theory propaganda while linking to a conspiracy theory propaganda site run by a couple of complete loons and while repeating pseudo-science claims.
d'oh now you get it! Completely unfit as a commercial variety even after all those years developement, yet this golden rice still used by propagandists as the poster child of GMOs. Completely BS.

You want a commercial GMO that saved an industry, then maybe look at GMO papaya. Golden rice would be an abject failure even if no one was anti-GMO on the planet.



Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
This let them eat claim mantra doesn't stand up. The problem with the idea that they should just plant some local greens, or fruits, or vegetables, or eggplant is that it doesn't store long term like rice, and getting those poorest of the poor beta carotene for a couple weeks of the year was not the goal.
And yet when golden rice failed in most every other country it was tried, places like Philippines still managed to reduce or eliminate Vit A deficiency anyway.....go figure.
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Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 10th March 2019 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 10th March 2019, 07:35 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
d'oh now you get it! Completely unfit as a commercial variety even after all those years development
I wouldn't think that it would be possible for someone who claims to be a farmer to know less about plant breeding than your average high school student, but you clearly do.

The traits are bred into commercial varieties. As almost every single crop variety has been bred for maximum yields for generations, it is not uncommon that when new traits are inserted (through any method) into a commercial variety that it results in undesired effects - such as loss of yield.

In this case the loons who you promote ran with a single example of that happening because they are loons and they understand that their audience is too stupid to understand that they are being duped.

Like every crop developed or altered through any method the new varieties that don't have yield losses or other negative effects will be commercialized (as is happening with golden rice) and the ones that do are discarded (although often studied to learn more about why).

Quote:
yet this golden rice still used by propagandists as the poster child of GMOs. Completely BS.

You want a commercial GMO that saved an industry, then maybe look at GMO papaya. Golden rice would be an abject failure even if no one was anti-GMO on the planet.
Golden rice has been held back somewhat by difficulties in breeding rice, but mostly because of the anti-GMO movement. This didn't happen with GMO papaya because American farmers were not going to have their livelihoods destroyed by a bunch of anti-science crackpots. But the world's poorest farmers and children are easy victims.

Quote:
And yet when golden rice failed in most every other country it was tried, places like Philippines still managed to reduce or eliminate Vit A deficiency anyway.....go figure.
Vitamin A deficiency has been increasing significantly in the Philippines (from 15% in 2008 to more than 20% by 2013. That is millions of children in the Philippines who have been harmed by Western anti-science zealots. You don't hear about that on the conspiracy pseudoscience websites you promote because they don't care about the lives of poor children.
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Old 10th March 2019, 08:53 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
I wouldn't think that it would be possible for someone who claims to be a farmer to know less about plant breeding than your average high school student, but you clearly do.

The traits are bred into commercial varieties. As almost every single crop variety has been bred for maximum yields for generations, it is not uncommon that when new traits are inserted (through any method) into a commercial variety that it results in undesired effects - such as loss of yield.

In this case the loons who you promote ran with a single example of that happening because they are loons and they understand that their audience is too stupid to understand that they are being duped.

Like every crop developed or altered through any method the new varieties that don't have yield losses or other negative effects will be commercialized (as is happening with golden rice) and the ones that do are discarded (although often studied to learn more about why).
You are just digging yourself deeper, as I have actually worked for seed research companies and helped develop test cull etc.. thousands of varieties of corn soy and tomatoes. So try something else besides arguing from ignorance. Golden rice is a dog. The yields are ridiculously low and so far after all these years still no commercially viable strains are available. It's even approved for use in USA but the commercial yield in the US? 0.000% That's because it sucks and your defense of it is ridiculous.


Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Golden rice has been held back somewhat by difficulties in breeding rice, but mostly because of the anti-GMO movement. This didn't happen with GMO papaya because American farmers were not going to have their livelihoods destroyed by a bunch of anti-science crackpots. But the world's poorest farmers and children are easy victims.
That BS laying the blame of Golden Rice on others that have no ability to direct the breeding at all. The breeders of Golden Rice have failed in their goals, simple as that.

No doubt those goals were of the highest philanthropic intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

On the other hand, like I asked originally. Do you have some new variety that both increases yields and Vit A? Yes or no?



Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Vitamin A deficiency has been increasing significantly in the Philippines (from 15% in 2008 to more than 20% by 2013. That is millions of children in the Philippines who have been harmed by Western anti-science zealots. You don't hear about that on the conspiracy pseudoscience websites you promote because they don't care about the lives of poor children.
" We focus on the first two interventions as those with widest impact, and most comparable to GR. Supplementation with vA capsules is now widely practiced in many countries, and USAID has supported supplementation programs in Nepal, Indonesia, and the Philippines (USAID, 2002b). Once the retinol in the capsules is stored in the liver, it is excreted slowly and can sustain vA requirements for 4–6 months (De la Cuadra, 2000 ). Thus, semiannual distribution is feasible and is the preferred method because it reduces the labor costs associated with distribution." Golden Rice: What Role Could it Play in Alleviation of Vitamin A Deficiency?

Funny you use old stats. vA capsules are free and available to every child in the Philippines. The project is fully funded and fully stocked. the only issue remaining is a few places where there are not even any roads. Places like that it is even MORE difficult to ship in golden rice than vitamin capsules! That's assuming you actually could get a decent yield out of it, which you cant.

And of course there are more reasons too. The Vitamin A in the Golden rice does not store well and even when fresh is not enough to reach RDA even if all you eat is 100% Golden rice every meal every day.

"Assuming 100 percent of rice consumed in the United States is replaced with GR2E rice, IRRI used
current dietary rice intake (11.8 kg per capita annually) and the highest value of ǃ-carotene measured in
samples of milled GR2E rice carotene. IRRI estimated the potential dietary exposure to ǃ-carotene from GR2E rice to be
approximately 0.24 mg/day; this translates to approximately one tenth the current daily ǃ-carotene
consumption in the adult population, from all other food sources. IRRI acknowledged that it expects the
actual dietary intakes to be lower given (1) that it is unlikely that all rice in the diet would be substituted
with GR2E rice and (2) that ǃ-carotene levels in food containing GR2E rice would decline over time due to storage, processing, and cooking. " FDA Biotechnology Notification File No. 000158
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Old 10th March 2019, 09:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You are just digging yourself deeper, as I have actually worked for seed research companies and helped develop test cull etc.. thousands of varieties of corn soy and tomatoes. So try something else besides arguing from ignorance. Golden rice is a dog. The yields are ridiculously low and so far after all these years still no commercially viable strains are available. It's even approved for use in USA but the commercial yield in the US? 0.000% That's because it sucks and your defense of it is ridiculous.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
First of all golden rice only went through the approval process in the US for one reason and one reason only, to make it easier, faster and cheaper for other countries approve it who were being intimidated by anti-GMO groups. There was never any intentions of being available for growing in the US, as there is zero need for it and it wouldn't make any sense.

Second, we already know that the yields of the golden rice variety are the same as the parental variety based on the field trials.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Quote:
That BS laying the blame of Golden Rice on others that have no ability to direct the breeding at all. The breeders of Golden Rice have failed in their goals, simple as that.
Anti-GMO groups know what they have done. They have been proud to talk about it.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


Quote:
Funny you use old stats.
No I didn't. I am using all the most recent stats from the UN and Unicef. You are not. VAD in the Philippines is listed as severe. It is at more than 20% and has been rising throughout the 21st century.

Quote:
And of course there are more reasons too. The Vitamin A in the Golden rice does not store well and even when fresh is not enough to reach RDA even if all you eat is 100% Golden rice every meal every day.
Quote:
"Assuming 100 percent of rice consumed in the United States is replaced with GR2E rice, IRRI used
current dietary rice intake (11.8 kg per capita annually)……….
Per capita rice consumption in the Philippines is more than 10 times that.
Carotene levels in all foods decline after harvesting, but that decline is far smaller and slower in golden rice than in almost any other food. Same goes for cooking.
Golden rice doesn't have to bring children to the RDA, supplements don't either, and despite widespread supplement programs VAD remains high. Those programs are also expensive and the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Last edited by zooterkin; 16th March 2019 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:06 PM   #11
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Wayward son, passionate disagreement aside, your argument is getting pretty close to reportable personal attack.

This is a pretty interesting topic, though so far I see little in the way of references to back up either side of the argument. Keep it civil, please, so we can learn something.
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:06 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
You are a tremendous idiot. ...
Your lies are pathological.
Oh really? Is that assessment as science based as your BS about Golden Rice? As typical I must endure insults from people with no references or citations at all, and yet I provided plenty of good respectable references for everything I have said. So who's telling lies and got caught?

In fact the best you have been capable of providing is that at least 6 years ago there remained a problem, yet you have no evidence whatsoever your proposed solution would even help any at all.

Not only are you a cad, you can't even back up your position. And when shown how wrong you actually are, you fall back on more insults because you got squat.
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:58 PM   #13
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Suggest anyone interested in the subject of Golden Rice google it. They will find far more reliable information than what is contained in this thread.
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Suggest anyone interested in the subject of Golden Rice google it. They will find far more reliable information than what is contained in this thread.
Upthread, GRE2 was mentioned, is that the strain being OK'd in the OP?
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:22 AM   #15
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And is the real problem that like in the First world, 3rd world countries have gone too high carb? Not enough lard- vA is one of the fat soluble ones. A-D-E-K pills, if the people can't get UN "Commodity Salmon Croquettes".

What changed in their diets? Maybe Palm oil being grown instead of fruit trees, palm oil being exported to 1st world countries? So the people have jobs instead of a nutritional diet? Soy sauce is cheaper than fish sauce made from minnows, that competed with rice production?
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And is the real problem that like in the First world, 3rd world countries have gone too high carb? Not enough lard- vA is one of the fat soluble ones. A-D-E-K pills, if the people can't get UN "Commodity Salmon Croquettes".

What changed in their diets? Maybe Palm oil being grown instead of fruit trees, palm oil being exported to 1st world countries? So the people have jobs instead of a nutritional diet? Soy sauce is cheaper than fish sauce made from minnows, that competed with rice production?
Has anything actually changed in their diets, or have they just been nutritionally poor for many years? Poor people surviving off nutritionally poor monoculture is not a new problem, but a long standing problem that golden rice hopes to address.
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:12 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Upthread, GRE2 was mentioned, is that the strain being OK'd in the OP?
I don't have the answer to this. I actually asked about if they solved this with a new variety.

What I do know is that the theory was that they would do the initial gene splices (last I heard it was a total of three) on a low yielding japonica rice (O. sativa subsp. japonica) and then back cross it with locally adapted indica rice (O. sativa subsp. indica) in each area it is grown.

The genes were carefully designed to only be expressed in the grains and not the leaves since it would cause disruptions in the plants metabolic pathways if expressed in leaves.

However, when backcrossed an unintended emergent property of the system caused the genes to be expressed in the leaves anyway. This turned out to be the primary reason yields did not meet expectations and the varieties kept failing. Either plenty of vit A and stunted growth, or if good yields, limited Vit A.

IIRC Syngenta attempted to fix this problem by substituting a corn gene for one of the Tulip genes originally used. It got better, but how much better? Did the improvement last when backcrossed into the locally adapted indica cultivars?

They had huge difficulties with that. I don't know if this new approved use of golden rice for Bangladesh is before or after this backcrossing.

IF after and IF the yields problem was solved, and IF the locals take to the new strain, then happy days.

But in all honesty I think the whole fiasco with Golden Rice was at its beginning a solution looking for a problem, rather than the ideal solution to the real problem, poverty.
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Old 11th March 2019, 02:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I have to criticize you for your OP style.

Golden rice is a topic because it is controversial. It is controversial because it is a genetically modified organism (GMO). Nowhere in your post do you mention this. It requires opening the article to see why the hell anyone would be talking about golden rice.
This is a science sub-forum on a skeptics board. There is a pretty good chance that the majority of readers are familiar with golden rice and recognize that where there may be 'controversy', such controversy is not rooted in the science itself but in the public perception of it.

Thus, talking about the GMO nature of golden rice is something that may not need to be brought up.
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Old 11th March 2019, 02:56 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
What do the yields look like?...The problem with golden rice was always that either it produced too little Beta Carotene, or if it produced enough to meet daily requirements
Technically it doesn't have to "meet daily requirements" to be of benefit. Providing even SOME of the the needed Vitamin A will be of benefit in places where there is no source.
Quote:
...it caused metabolic meltdown in the rice itself, dramatically reducing yields.

Goodbye to Golden Rice? GM Trait Leads to Drastic Yield Loss and “Metabolic Meltdown”
From: https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2...itarians-love/
In 2014, IRRI reported that field trials revealed the most advanced version of Golden Rice at that time, GR2R, showed a lower yield compared to its conventional equivalent.... To remedy this, IRRI initiated new breeding programs in 2014 to develop high-yielding versions of Golden Rice. Results from confined field trials (CFTs), which took place from October 2014 to July 2017, showed no unintended effects of the GR2E variety on agronomic performance, yield, and grain quality.

So at one point lower yields were an issue, but it looks like they've overcome the problem.
Quote:
Otherwise it is much smarter for the farmer to simply plant higher yielding rice varieties and grow some other local crop that contains Beta carotene and other important vitamins in the freed up acreage. Sweet potatoes being one. Those eggplant being another. Any number of local greens being a third. Almost all fruits and vegetables have naturally occurring levels of vitamin A in some form or another well over what is needed for health.
The problem is that the type of environmental conditions and land needed to grow rice is often very different than the type of conditions to grow those other crops. Rice needs very wet soil. Sweet potatoes and eggplants need well drained soil. Its not likely that a subsistence farmer working on a small plot of land will have both types of soil conditions available.

Vitamin A deficiency has been a problem for a long time. Its amazing that whenever Golden rice is brought up, people jump in and say "what about getting farmers to grow other stuff", as if its a solution that has never been thought of before.
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Old 11th March 2019, 03:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
"We focus on the first two interventions as those with widest impact, and most comparable to GR. Supplementation with vA capsules is now widely practiced in many countries, and USAID has supported supplementation programs...
...

Funny you use old stats. vA capsules are free and available to every child in the Philippines.
Technically the capsules aren't free... they are paid for as a form of foreign aid. The problem is:
- Not all areas of the world have such benefit. Many farmers live in areas where outside aid is unavailable for political or other reasons.
- The need for aid organizations to purchase and distribute those capsules diverts resources that could in theory be used for other purposes. Use golden rice, you don't need the capsules, and the money saved can be used for other critical purposes
Quote:
The project is fully funded and fully stocked. the only issue remaining is a few places where there are not even any roads. Places like that it is even MORE difficult to ship in golden rice than vitamin capsules!
Ummm... no. The point of Golden rice is not to grown it and then ship it in to other areas. The point of golden rice is to provide the seeds and let farmers in those areas grow, harvest, and replant as necessary. No need to provide outside shipments of golden rice.

(And keep in mind that many areas where famine exists, MOST food would have to be shipped in from the outside anyways.)

Quote:
And of course there are more reasons too. The Vitamin A in the Golden rice does not store well...
Ummm... reference?
Quote:
...and even when fresh is not enough to reach RDA even if all you eat is 100% Golden rice every meal every day.
Irrelevant. Even if golden rice doesn't provide 100% of the vitamin A requirement, even a partial amount is preferable to none.

"Assuming 100 percent of rice consumed in the United States is replaced with GR2E rice, IRRI used
current dietary rice intake (11.8 kg per capita annually) and the highest value of ǃ-carotene measured in
samples of milled GR2E rice carotene. IRRI estimated the potential dietary exposure to ǃ-carotene from GR2E rice to be
approximately 0.24 mg/day; this translates to approximately one tenth the current daily ǃ-carotene
consumption in the adult population, from all other food sources. IRRI acknowledged that it expects the
actual dietary intakes to be lower given (1) that it is unlikely that all rice in the diet would be substituted
with GR2E rice[/quote]
Why?

If you're a subsistence farmer, you're not likely to bother cultivating multple strains of rice on your property.

Quote:
and (2) that ǃ-[hilite]carotene levels in food containing GR2E rice would decline over time due to storage, processing, and cooking. "
Yet recent tests have shown that cooked golden rice does act as a source of vitamin A.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/6/1776/4596817
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

Yet recent tests have shown that cooked golden rice does act as a source of vitamin A.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/6/1776/4596817
and without butter too?
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/...in-bangladesh/

(Making link visible.)

For those who hadn't a clue what your position was in the OP, let's start again.

Neurologica cites article entitled:

“Beware of the GMO trap! Golden Rice release in Bangladesh a marketing tool for GMOs,”

"“Proponents are using Golden Rice not as solution to micronutrient deficiency, but as a marketing tool for other GMOs that will only benefit the agrochemical companies that develop them,” said Cris Panerio, National Coordinator of MASIPAG and lead convenor of SGRN.

This is such an entitled, conspiracy-theory obsessed, over-privileged piece of psychosis.

He must be absolutely oblivious to the vast oversupply of food in the USA and its enormous contrast to food volume and nutrition in Bangladesh.

This knobhead is jerking off to his own 'genius' idea that the world's scientists (as opposed to retired yuppie backyard hobby farmers jockeying for social status at the farmer's market), dietitians, biologists, geneticists are all on in on a global plot to kill brown people.
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Old 12th March 2019, 08:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Quote:
Yet recent tests have shown that cooked golden rice does act as a source of vitamin A.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/6/1776/4596817
and without butter too?
Seriously? That's now your complaint? You don't agree with how the rice was prepared and don't think the researchers know how to do a proper baseline?

Keep in mind that its not the only article that has shown that golden rice can be a source of vitamin A

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...87E0RO20120815
The study tested so-called Golden Rice against both spinach and supplements in providing vitamin A to 68 six- to eight-year-olds in China. Researchers found that the rice was as effective as the capsules in giving kids a boost of vitamin A, based on blood tests taken over three weeks.
And it worked better than the natural beta-carotene in spinach, the researchers report in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.


(Note: In the interest of disclosure... there were tests that were done where proper permission was not obtained from people in the study. But, there were no problems with the study itself.)

Seriously... time and time again you have brought up issues, only to have those issues debunked.
- Your suggested that it can reduce yields, yet I provided a reference to show that that is no longer an issue due to breeding
- You suggested that people could just grow other vitamin-A rich foods, yet I pointed out that it wouldn't work because of different soil requirements
- You suggested just distributing Vitamin A capsules, yet I pointed out that even if that were feasible in all areas (its not), it still would use up valuable resources that could be used elsewhere
Still you grasp at straws, trying to find SOME reason to discount the benefits of golden rice.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Seriously? That's now your complaint? You don't agree with how the rice was prepared and don't think the researchers know how to do a proper baseline?
It was a serious question, since this to be helpful would be targeted at people too poor to buy animal fats and vegetable oils. (which is the primary cause of Vit A deficiency in the first place, too poor to afford a balanced diet) Vit A bioavailability varies substantially between sources, and one factor in determining bioavailability is lipid solubility and the requirement for bile production to pass the small intestine wall.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind that its not the only article that has shown that golden rice can be a source of vitamin A

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...87E0RO20120815
The study tested so-called Golden Rice against both spinach and supplements in providing vitamin A to 68 six- to eight-year-olds in China. Researchers found that the rice was as effective as the capsules in giving kids a boost of vitamin A, based on blood tests taken over three weeks.
And it worked better than the natural beta-carotene in spinach, the researchers report in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.


(Note: In the interest of disclosure... there were tests that were done where proper permission was not obtained from people in the study. But, there were no problems with the study itself.)
This is a good thing. Did they have butter or oils in their diet too?

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Seriously... time and time again you have brought up issues, only to have those issues debunked.
- Your suggested that it can reduce yields, yet I provided a reference to show that that is no longer an issue due to breeding
- You suggested that people could just grow other vitamin-A rich foods, yet I pointed out that it wouldn't work because of different soil requirements
- You suggested just distributing Vitamin A capsules, yet I pointed out that even if that were feasible in all areas (its not), it still would use up valuable resources that could be used elsewhere
Still you grasp at straws, trying to find SOME reason to discount the benefits of golden rice.
No I ASKED if there was yield data to show this problem had been resolved, and you provided a good reference that it had. Thanks for the good reference. Not sure what you are on about now. People on a skeptic site can no longer ask for evidence? Or what?

Yes, I still maintain the best solution is balanced diet and divorcing the whole forced "green revolution" mandated "package" system that imposed both needed technological improvements along with unneeded and inappropriate technologies causing more nutritional problems than solved. The whole idea of monocropping rice as a cash crop has as much to do with this as anything else, and has caused whole sectors of society to become desperately chronically poor. Perspectives on the ‘Green Revolution’ in South Asia It is a socio economic problem as much as anything else. So solving access to nutritional balanced foods is far better a course in my opinion that the millions spent on golden rice. A tiny fraction of the money spent on golden rice has done extraordinary wonders far in excess of the returns from Golden rice IMHO. Like this for example:
System for Rice Intensification You will notice that yields improve so much that farmers become capable of either making profits enough to buy a better diet and/or to set aside more land for other vegetable crops instead of only rice. And that sort of improvement has made huge impacts on millions who have learned this already. Including record breaking yields so great it allows poor barefoot farmers enough profits to send their children to college! India's rice revolution But I guess the good news is that if what you are saying is true, and golden rice can also break world record yields just as easily as the best cultivars of indica rice, then maybe in the future it will finally show a return on investment, just by growing golden rice with SRI?

Yes capsuls are far more cost effective way to help people right now. Think of the thousands who died or went blind waiting for golden rice while those millions of dollars could have bought and distributed vitamin A and saved them. It's not a question of goals, it is a question of what would be the best cost effective permanent solution. I would suggest capsules as a stop gap while real changes to help people out of poverty are far more efficacious. However, since it is done now, as you say, maybe golden rice might finally be some help.

As for grasping at straws? I am not opposed to GMOs and need not "grasp at straws" to fight them. I actually was a very vocal proponent of the idea that GMO's should be ONLY allowed in organic production models and that battle we lost pitifully. Worse, the place where GE tech can be used to do the most good, it has since been banned from being used at all! It's insanity in my opinion, but it won't ever stop me from the questioning the uses of GE tech. Like any tool, there are good uses and poor uses of the tool, but to the hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post

As for grasping at straws? I am not opposed to GMOs and need not "grasp at straws" to fight them. I actually was a very vocal proponent of the idea that GMO's should be ONLY allowed in organic production models and that battle we lost pitifully. Worse, the place where GE tech can be used to do the most good, it has since been banned from being used at all! It's insanity in my opinion, but it won't ever stop me from the questioning the uses of GE tech. Like any tool, there are good uses and poor uses of the tool, but to the hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.
I find your arguments interesting as you don't appear to oppose GMO entirely just golden rice, most arguments I've heard in opposition to golden rice have been thinly veiled anti-gmo nonsense. I'm not convinced there's anything necessarily bad about GR, in the end you're arguments sound a bit like a false dichotomy. I shall continue to read this thread though.

Aside from that, the above snippet reads like you would allow GMOs should be allowed in organic farming but not conventional farming. Which seems odd, could you clarify or correct me if I have misunderstood you.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post

Aside from that, the above snippet reads like you would allow GMOs should be allowed in organic farming but not conventional farming. Which seems odd, could you clarify or correct me if I have misunderstood you.
Yes that did probably need some clarification. I mean "designed for" not "allowed for". ie the principle being to use it to avoid pesticide use, rather than allow even more pesticide use, by giving plants resistance to pests or diseases.

So a Bt GMO is fantastic in my mind. Same with the GMO tech for papayas and American chestnuts. These clearly are appropriate uses of the technology and it matters little if the actual plants are "certified" organic or not. They are beneficial to any system of production.

Whereas a GE tech allowing even more use of herbicides is counterproductive for a whole variety of reasons and is a completely inappropriate use of the technology.

As for Golden rice, if it really has had all the bugs hammered out and actually can perform as designed, I have no opposition to it at all. I still believe strongly even after golden rice we still need to do the same thing..help people grow a better balanced and affordable diet and help people out of the poverty that forces them to only eat rice in the first place!
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:25 PM   #27
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Quote:
Seriously? That's now your complaint? You don't agree with how the rice was prepared and don't think the researchers know how to do a proper baseline?
It was a serious question, since this to be helpful would be targeted at people too poor to buy animal fats and vegetable oils. (which is the primary cause of Vit A deficiency in the first place, too poor to afford a balanced diet)
And once again, your "question" goes on the assumption that those people designing the experiments (who, I suspect, have at least some expertise in the fields of nutrition and biology) are too stupid to consider the impact of butter on vitamin A levels.

In fact, a few seconds of thought should have been enough for you to reject your question as foolish. According to wikipedia, a 1 tbsp serving of butter provides at most 2% of the daily requirement for Vitamin A. A small serving of Golden rice was found to provide over 50% of the requirements. If the source of the vitamin A really was butter, then they would have to eat a couple of pounds a week.

Quote:
Quote:
Seriously... time and time again you have brought up issues, only to have those issues debunked.
- Your suggested that it can reduce yields, yet I provided a reference to show that that is no longer an issue due to breeding
- You suggested that people could just grow other vitamin-A rich foods, yet I pointed out that it wouldn't work because of different soil requirements
- You suggested just distributing Vitamin A capsules, yet I pointed out that even if that were feasible in all areas (its not), it still would use up valuable resources that could be used elsewhere
Still you grasp at straws, trying to find SOME reason to discount the benefits of golden rice.
No I ASKED if there was yield data to show this problem had been resolved, and you provided a good reference that it had.
It was very easy to find a reference to show the problem had been solved. Took less than 2 minutes of googling.

Yet when you made your claim about how yields were being negatively affected, you were referring to an article on a website called 'independent science news', a source which is listed in mediabias / factcheck as engaging in pseudoscience.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/indep...-science-news/

Why is it that I was able to find a reference that suggested that there were no concerns about yields rather quickly, yet you had to resort to a borderline-pseudoscience web site for your reference?

Quote:
Thanks for the good reference. Not sure what you are on about now. People on a skeptic site can no longer ask for evidence? Or what?
Sure, asking for evidence is fine. But if your question appears to contain misleading information, don't be surprised to find people question your motives.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

Quote:
Yes, I still maintain the best solution is balanced diet and divorcing the whole forced "green revolution" mandated "package" system that imposed both needed technological improvements along with unneeded and inappropriate technologies causing more nutritional problems than solved. The whole idea of monocropping rice as a cash crop has as much to do with this as anything else...
Once again... when you are dealing with 3rd world countries, 'monocropping' due to economics is not an issue. The problem is that many of the farmers growing the food are subsistence farmers who's land is probably not suited to growing alternatives.

Quote:
A tiny fraction of the money spent on golden rice has done extraordinary wonders far in excess of the returns from Golden rice IMHO. Like this for example:
System for Rice Intensification
In case you didn't know, "proof by youtube video" is something that is generally frowned upon. By their nature, videos do not lend themselves well to reference checking, are prone to emotional manipulation techniques, etc.

(And that's assuming people can actually watch your video... not everyone can do so... some may be at work, on slower network connections, etc.)
Quote:
You will notice that yields improve so much that farmers become capable of either making profits enough to buy a better diet
Buy from whom? Many of these people whom golden rice is supposed to help are not in areas where other options are available.

And lets say that that they actually managed to improve yields... ultimately wouldn't they be better off even more to use those techniques to grow golden rice and increase ITS yield, thus giving the farmer more flexibility with what to do with the surplus cash?
Quote:
...and/or to set aside more land for other vegetable crops instead of only rice.
And once again, you seem to ignore the fact that the type of soil and environment needed for rice may be substantially different than that needed for carrots, sweet potatoes, and many other vitamin-A rich foods.

Quote:
Yes capsuls are far more cost effective way to help people right now.
Evidence? I have no idea how much those capsules cost, but there are roughly 250 million preschool children that are vitamin A deficient. Probably even more school-age children and adults. I have no idea how much each capsule costs, but given the fact you have to pay for not only the capsule itself, plus the whole distribution network, you're talking about a program that would probably cost hundreds of millions per year to solve the problem.

While golden rice required some investment to develop, it can now be grown, distributed, and replanted by subsistence farmers free, at no charge. Sounds to me like golden rice is the cheaper way to go.
Quote:
Think of the thousands who died or went blind waiting for golden rice while those millions of dollars could have bought and distributed vitamin A and saved them.
And think of the millions who died or went blind because of people who opposed the use of golden rice and ended up (for example) destroying test crops.

Nobody was "waiting" for golden rice... if things like distributing capsules or improving rice yields was soooo cheap and effective, then they could have just as easily been done in parallel with the creation of golden rice.

And once again.... if you REALLY think that solutions to vitamin A deficiency are so easy to fix (Hey, get them to grow carrots! Give them pills!) then why wasn't the problem fixed years ago? Could it be your overly-simple solutions are nowhere near as effective as you might think?
Quote:
As for grasping at straws? I am not opposed to GMOs...
Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. For someone who's claiming they are "not opposed to GMOs", you seem to be 1) relying on materials of a questionable nature when you bring up your concerns, and 2) often make mistakes or false claims.

To be honest you sound like an Anti-vaxer, who claims "I'm not anti-vaccine, I just don't think we should be giving as many as we do".
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Old 13th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Whereas a GE tech allowing even more use of herbicides is counterproductive for a whole variety of reasons and is a completely inappropriate use of the technology.
Except of course I do not think there is any situation where "GE Tech is allowing more use of herbicides".

Now, I assume what you are referring to is the use of GE tech to produce "round-up ready" plants. But, in that situation, its not actually meant to increase the amount of herbicides. Just the opposite... it ultimately reduces the amount. Its just that farmers can do a single application of a broad-spectrum herbicide (e.g. roundup) rather than multiple applications of pesticides geared towards affecting a specific weed.

Quote:
As for Golden rice, if it really has had all the bugs hammered out and actually can perform as designed, I have no opposition to it at all. I still believe strongly even after golden rice we still need to do the same thing..help people grow a better balanced and affordable diet and help people out of the poverty that forces them to only eat rice in the first place!
Which, while may be a noble goal, is sadly not pragmatic or obtainable in the short or medium term. You are probably talking generations before these problems are solved.

And why stop there? Why not suggest an end to war? Yeah, that will easily happen too.
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Old 13th March 2019, 05:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Except of course I do not think there is any situation where "GE Tech is allowing more use of herbicides".

Now, I assume what you are referring to is the use of GE tech to produce "round-up ready" plants. But, in that situation, its not actually meant to increase the amount of herbicides. Just the opposite... it ultimately reduces the amount. Its just that farmers can do a single application of a broad-spectrum herbicide (e.g. roundup) rather than multiple applications of pesticides geared towards affecting a specific weed.
Bad to worse from a biological perspective. Precisely because it is does what it is designed to do, kill the biodiversity in fields even in the growing season. Which is why the acceleration of soil degradation and the increase in the carbon imbalance worldwide.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Which, while may be a noble goal, is sadly not pragmatic or obtainable in the short or medium term. You are probably talking generations before these problems are solved.
You certainly don't solve it by spending vast effort and money on things that you know for 100% certain won't solve it even if those projects are 100% effective. That's limiting your success even before you start.
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Old 13th March 2019, 05:59 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And once again, your "question" goes on the assumption that those people designing the experiments (who, I suspect, have at least some expertise in the fields of nutrition and biology) are too stupid to consider the impact of butter on vitamin A levels.

In fact, a few seconds of thought should have been enough for you to reject your question as foolish. According to wikipedia, a 1 tbsp serving of butter provides at most 2% of the daily requirement for Vitamin A. A small serving of Golden rice was found to provide over 50% of the requirements. If the source of the vitamin A really was butter, then they would have to eat a couple of pounds a week.
All these assumptions are being made on your part not mine. You would need to realize that the oils and butter make the vit A in the rice more bioavailable, by triggering the bile release. All the various precursors to Vit A are not water soluble. One of the major factors of the bioavailability of this vitamin is oil in the diet, even if that oil has no Vit A at all. You are just showing your ignorance here, but you didn't actually answer the question. Where there any controls done where the subjects ate just the rice and no butter or oils? Even other foods with high Beta Carotene have this same issue. Spinach, Bok Choy, Collard greens, certain squash, raw Broccoli etc all of them need something like olive oil or pork fat to first release them from the plant material and then trigger the bile production that allows the intestine to absorb it. You will still get some traces even without this, but not nearly as much, and this really is a big part of the problem with malnutrition.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Once again... when you are dealing with 3rd world countries, 'monocropping' due to economics is not an issue. The problem is that many of the farmers growing the food are subsistence farmers who's land is probably not suited to growing alternatives.
That's just an outright lie.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And once again, you seem to ignore the fact that the type of soil and environment needed for rice may be substantially different than that needed for carrots, sweet potatoes, and many other vitamin-A rich foods.
More lies. I sure hope these are lies from ignorance and not purposeful lies.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
In case you didn't know, "proof by youtube video" is something that is generally frowned upon. By their nature, videos do not lend themselves well to reference checking, are prone to emotional manipulation techniques, etc.
I clearly said example. For evidence there are over 900 cataloged published journal articles here: JOURNAL ARTICLES ABOUT THE SYSTEM OF RICE INTENSIFICATION (SRI) and of course well over 5 million farmers have had their lives dramatically improved last I checked a few years back. I am sure the number is larger now. Back then for example there were only 700 journal articles and I have not kept up much since. I got what I needed from it already.
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