|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
23rd May 2018, 08:11 AM | #1761 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,331
|
I'd add one, actually. I was kinda saving it for the nazi competence thread, but actually it fits together with your post better.
The issue is: Germany didn't actually have all that many tanks either. In the '30s the percentage of spending on tanks, out of the total arms spending, was always less than 5%, at times substantially less. And they only start really making tanks in 1934, so that doesn't get a lot of tanks built. By the time of the attack on Poland, in the fall of 1939, IIRC the Germans had less than 180 Pz-III and Pz-IV combined. That's not a lot of tanks. By way of comparison, the Czechs had 298 LT vz. 35 (later known as Pz-35(t)) and was just starting production of the Pz-38t when they got taken over by Germany. It was only after the fall of France that the Nazi propaganda actually started painting a bigger than life picture of its many mighty tank divisions, |
__________________
Springfield Heights Institute of Technology poster child |
|
23rd May 2018, 12:08 PM | #1762 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
So anyone who doesn't agree with you has a lack of vision, but you have comprehensive vision? No. All events proved was that the German Army won. I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.Further, the Heer was unquestionably much weaker in May of 1939 than in 1940, and would have been far more so had it been forced to fight to conquer Czechoslovakia. Again, for certain values of "a bad state." However, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and you have repeatedly ignored, this does not mean that the French Army couldn't have coped with the conventional attack that the Wehrmacht would have been forced to launch in May of 1939, as the panzer forces would have been far too weak to attempt an attack through the Ardennes at the time. And how did this not apply in 1940? As has been mentioned, no one cares about your opinion, because you have repeatedly demonstrated that your opinions are worthless, particularly by continually refusing to answer questions that are clearly problematic to your claims. Says the person who claimed that the Luftwaffe could have bombed Britain into submission in a week in 1938, and that Germany could have invaded Britain without conquering France. Again, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." And why do you expect people to take you seriously when you keep citing text you characterize as "waffle" as support for your claims? With regard to the hilited, we've explained to you several times that saving Czechoslovakia was not the point, so why do you keep repeating this claim? As for the paper as a whole, two observations. First, the authors (who are political scientists, and not historians) are demonstrably mistaken in their claim that Chamberlain appeased Hitler in order to gain time for rearmament, and their evidence for this is extremely weak. Second, they do not claim that appeasement was the correct policy. In fact, the paper contains much evidence that it was not, which, as usual, you ignore. Come to that, it also contradicts several of your other claims as well, which is par for the course. |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
23rd May 2018, 01:06 PM | #1763 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
It is hard to imagine how a war starting in 1938 could have gone worse for the French than the one starting in 1939, conquered, occupied, suffering the depredations of Nazi looting and brutality for 4 years. And of course if it goes better for the French then that has huge benefits for the British, no Blitz, no threat of invasion, not mention no likelihood of war in the Far East and the prospect that Italy thinks better of starting war in the Middle East without the Germans on the Channel Coast.
There are reasons why politicians like Chamberlain chose Appeasement that made sense at the time, but they were based a tragic misreading of Hitler and a gross overestimation of German military strength, this of course is an argument that Henri simply cannot accept because it would mean Churchill was right to oppose it... |
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
24th May 2018, 04:57 AM | #1764 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
Henri, here's another question that I imagine you'll ignore or evade: If Hitler was hell-bent on war with France and Britain, as you claim, and those countries were far more vulnerable in 1938 than in 1939, then why didn't Hitler attack them in 1938? Both countries' rearmament plans were matters of public record, so he must have known that his best chance was slipping away.
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
24th May 2018, 07:11 AM | #1765 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
24th May 2018, 08:49 AM | #1766 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Personally, I think that was a strategic mistake by Hitler. Our secret service knew what was going on, and that he was determined to have a war with Soviet Russia, and so did Chamberlain and Halifax. War was inevitable, though Chamberlain talked a lot of politician's blah-blah about 'peace in our time' and the Anglo-German Naval agreement, and that he has no plans. It was just a question of timing. Chamberlain gave Hitler the dog's bone with the Czechs, while he made Britain too strong to be attacked. I agree there were German generals who were in disagreement with Hitler, but that was like trying to stop John Bolton now:
http://ww2today.com/chamberlain-clai...missed-the-bus
Quote:
|
24th May 2018, 10:36 AM | #1767 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
These are the same thread bare claims that you've repeated a dozen times. You've presented nothing to support them and willfully ignored a wealth of evidence that debunks your claims Are you simply incapable of actually doing any proper research or answering the questions put to you? All you have demonstrated to date is your utter ignorance of the topic and your inability to find a source that's relevant and supports your statements. |
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
25th May 2018, 12:16 PM | #1768 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
So the fact that his generals and ministers were saying that Germany couldn't possibly win a war against Britain and France in 1938 had nothing to do with it? We're still waiting for you to provide some real evidence of this. Again, how about some real evidence? I renew the question you've repeatedly ignored: Was Britain too strong to be attacked in September 1939? Irrelevant. If you want to take shots at Bolton, go to USA Politics. First, you do realize that Chamberlain was roundly pilloried for his "missed the bus" comment, as Hitler proceeded to conquer several countries, including France, within the next two months, don't you? Second, Chamberlain clearly implies, probably incorrectly, that the Wehrmacht could have overwhelmed Britain and France if Hitler had ignored Poland and struck west in September 1939. Please explain how this squares with your claim that Chamberlain waited to start the war until Britain was "too strong to be attacked." |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
25th May 2018, 01:44 PM | #1769 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
I got Australia and Appeasement yesterday, so I've temporarily put aside The Change in the European Balance of Power, 1938-1939. I got most of the way through the chapters about the Sudeten crisis last night and this morning, and, wonder of wonders, Waters presents a lot of information that flatly contradicts Henri's claims. I'll have a long, comprehensive post on the subject when I've finished reading and taking notes.
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
25th May 2018, 02:49 PM | #1770 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
26th May 2018, 02:14 AM | #1771 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
There is some interesting gossip about appeasement in 1938 at this website:
http://www.adespicabletruce.org.uk/page59.html
Quote:
|
26th May 2018, 03:39 AM | #1772 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
A site created by a religious fanatic, with some cherry picked quotes that provided not one shred of factual evidence to support the idea that appeasement was a sound policy, and you even call it gossip. How exactly did you expect this to shore up your arguments? If I can abuse the term to cover the nonsense you keep posting..
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
26th May 2018, 01:25 PM | #1773 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
Continuing evasion noted. When are you going to answer the questions that have been put to you? Especially:
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
26th May 2018, 01:52 PM | #1774 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
26th May 2018, 02:19 PM | #1775 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
|
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
26th May 2018, 02:52 PM | #1776 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
27th May 2018, 01:37 AM | #1777 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
Me, I'm enjoying watching the metaphorical kicking that more knowledgeable posters have been administering.
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
27th May 2018, 02:24 AM | #1778 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
There are some interesting opinions about this matter on this forum, some of which make sense to me, though not very academic: http://www.theminiaturespage.com/boa...g.mv?id=194298
Quote:
|
27th May 2018, 05:56 AM | #1779 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA
Posts: 6,120
|
Sigh. Continuing evasion noted. Why can't you just attempt to answer the questions that have been asked, rather than repeating semi-relevant opinions of anonymous Internet posters for which no supporting evidence is provided, and many of which are demonstrably incorrect? Is it because you don't want to admit that you can't answer? |
__________________
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz |
|
27th May 2018, 06:16 AM | #1780 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
27th May 2018, 06:48 AM | #1781 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
Evidence is like waffle, a word Henri doesn't understand. He think if he can find enough other people who share the same opinion as him that balances off everyone here who rejects his claims. He is simply unwilling to do any proper research, too afraid he will find proof he his wrong.
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
27th May 2018, 07:13 AM | #1782 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
27th May 2018, 10:11 PM | #1783 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
Just a reminder, Henri cannot be wrong therefore we all have to be wrong. So he'll just keep repeating the same nonsense. This thread is dead but Henri cannot bring himself to accept his defeat. The Italians, Japanese and Germans and a host of satellites did but Henri, no he'll never surrender.
Expect more and more vapid postings. |
28th May 2018, 04:39 PM | #1784 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
|
Part 2 of my alternate history "The War That Might Have Been..."
late January 1939 - The Czechs are holding out against the German forces, barely. In the rough terrain of western Czechoslovakia have been able to halt the German penetration and stalemate the German offensive. In the air the battle was more problematic . The original 50 Curtiss Hawk aircraft had been ground down to barely 20 - many of them rebuilt several times from wrecks. The engines were worn out and performance suffered. The losses forced the Czechs to carefully husband their resources. The Luftwaffe, noticing the slackening of the Czech air forces took full advantage by upping the tempo of operations. Many towns were "blitzed", by the Luftwaffe causing severe damage. Even then the Czechs counterpunched conducting small scale limited attacks. Intruder missions where small numbers of light bombers, Tupolev SB purchased from the Soviet Union, would trail German formations back to their base attacking the air base just as the returning aircraft were landing, Several dozen German aircraft were destroyed or damaged in this manner. The Luftwaffe were forced to divert fighters to patrol over the airbases and "clean" arriving formations to avoid infiltrators. A spy in Austria reported some 2 dozen JU 52 transports parked on an airfield near Weiner Neustad. A low level attack, flying down the Danube just above the river destroyed some 15 JU 52, escaping unscathed. In the west The British were doing their part, naval forces blockaded Germany cutting off sea borne supplies, interdicting the flow of Swedish iron ore via the Norwegian port of Narvik. Limited air attacks against Northern German ports and the Ruhr were conducted by RAF Whitley and Hampden bombers, mainly at night to avoid the Luftwaffe. The Committee to Save Czechoslovakia had been established in Britain to aid the Czech government. Many members of the upper class lending their names (and money) to the cause kept up the pressure on the British government. The British offered send some surplus Hawker Hurricanes to assist the Czech air force, which the Czechs demurred on to avoid complicatedly the logistical situation. The French, on the outer hand, proved maddingly slow on organizing a offensive into Germany. The callup of reserve forces was slow and chaotic and the General Staff labored to man the forts of the Maginot Line while attempting to organize an offensive push into the Saar. Even then the entry of Britain and French into the war against Czechoslovakia forced the Germans to keep large forces on the Franco - German border. The Luftwaffe was forced to maintain several squadrons of fighters in western Germany along with other aircraft to counter British attacks. Help was on the way for the beleaguered Czechs. The French had agreed to divert their order of American Curtiss Hawk aircraft to the Czech air force. The ARMEE L 'AIRE sent a contingent of pilots to help the Czech fly them. The Roosevelt administration used some slick lawyering (and winking at) bypassing Neutrality laws in order to ship the aircraft to the Czechs. Some 30 Curtiss Hawks of an improved type with more powerful 1050 hp engine and 6 machine gun armament would soon arrive. The weather, would providently, provide a respite. Heavy fogs and snow storms shut down air activity for a week. The Czechs used the lull to maximum advantage, readying the newly arrived aircraft and using a shipment of spare engines to replace the worn engines of the existing aircraft. Tactics were sharpened, including a new and terrifying tactic. the head on attack . A small number of aircraft would attack head on, closing to near suicidal range before opening fire . At a closing speed of nearly 500 mph the risk of collision was distinct possibility. The head on attacks concentrated fire on the most vulnerable sections of the aircraft. The terrifying sight of the oncoming aircraft passing just meters away unnerved German fliers and broke up formations allowing the remainder of the squadron to pick off the bombers |
28th May 2018, 05:38 PM | #1785 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
|
The War That Might Been - Continued
January 31, 1939 Warned by the British that the weather would soon break, the Czechs waited for the impending onslaught The Luftwaffe, noticing the slackening Czech Aerial response, had prepared a massive assault against Prague and several other Czech cities with the intent of breaking the defenders morale Goring boasted that his Luftwaffe would eradicate the Czech Untermensch January 31 1939 dawned clear and cold, perfect flying weather. Starting at dawn German recon and weather aircraft flew over Czechoslovakia, scoping out their targets The Czechs did not molest the German aircraft, husbanding their resources for the coming assault. Pilots sat in their cockpits, engines warmed up waiting for the order to takeoff. They did not have long to wait Ground observers reported massive formations of German aircraft heading into Czechoslovakia from airbases in Germany and recently annexed Austria Czech pilots scrambled aloft into holding patterns, waiting to see the outline of the oncoming attack before committing their squadrons Once the outline of the German attack was revealed the Czechs high command released their fighters, Curtiss Hawks an Avias against the German formations. Swirling dogfights crisscrossed the skies over Bohemia as the Czech fighters piled into the Luftwaffe. The head on attacks proved effective at disrupting German formations allowing Czech fighters to take on the German bombers. Throughout the day Czech fighters flew continuous sorties, landing to refuel and rearm, the pilots gulping hot sugary coffee to keep alert. Many of the bombers were carrying heavy loads of 1 kg incendiary bombs designed to start numerous fires on the ground Czech civil defense forces on the ground were hard pressed to find and extinguish the bombs before they could start a serious fire Ever since the crisis had started civil defense had been uppermost in the Czech government. Short civil defense films were played at the beginning and end of feature films in the cinema. Tables were set up in the lobbies to distribute civil defense literature and sign up members for local civil defense organizations. One Prague cinema would only play civil dense films continuously. Home and business owners were told to keep buckets of sand and water handy, along with tools like shovels (to scoop up burning incendiary) and axes to cut away burning sections. When the short winter day put an end to the combats, some 43 German aircraft had been downed with many more damaged, Czech losses were half that of the Germans. The Czechs had been able to deflect many of the German bomber formations. The following day, February 1, German bomber formations were again on the attack, but the Czech head on attacks were proving effective at disrupting the German bomber formations and more critically effecting morale . Many of the bombers were dropping their loads at the first sign of Czech fighters to gain maneuvering speed and running for home Because of this only 25 German aircraft were lost . Goring ranted at his aircrews, condemning them as cowards and malingers and threatening to fly the lead aircraft against the Czechs if his men would not |
30th May 2018, 05:34 AM | #1786 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,750
|
|
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat. |
|
30th May 2018, 01:41 PM | #1787 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
30th May 2018, 02:31 PM | #1788 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
|
Head on attacks were effective in that many bombers lacked heavy forward firing armament
Most had only 1, maybe 2 mg often aimed by navigator or bombardiers doubling as gunners Targeting the nose of the aircraft yields dividends in that the pilots and control systems are based there Also the front of the engine nacelles often have to the radiators and oil coolers - damage them and the engine seizes To counter German head one attacks US fitted a turret with 2 .50 mg in the nose (Chin turret ) of Boeing B17 G model |
30th May 2018, 02:36 PM | #1789 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,042
|
German Aircraft like the Heinkel 111 and the JU88 had a very exposed nose with lots of glass panels, the pilots were particularly easy to hit from a head on attack.
|
30th May 2018, 02:44 PM | #1790 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
30th May 2018, 07:08 PM | #1791 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,077
|
|
31st May 2018, 12:11 PM | #1792 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
1st June 2018, 01:57 AM | #1793 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Chamberlain was a realist.
|
1st June 2018, 02:31 AM | #1794 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
So that's it? You can't even be bothered to try and back up your claims with irrelevant websites anymore? There is not one shred of evidence to back up the notion that Chamberlain expected war, he certainly fell drastically short in preparing for one if he did. The army received little or no attention until it was far too late. So either your statement is wrong or Chamberlain was an utterly incompetent realist.
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
1st June 2018, 04:17 AM | #1795 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,284
|
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
1st June 2018, 11:16 AM | #1796 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
1st June 2018, 11:20 AM | #1797 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
1st June 2018, 12:01 PM | #1798 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
And this, along with his willingness to believe the most pessimistic estimates of German strength/British weakness constitutes the best defence of Chamberlain's actions. The problem for Henri is that when the real situation is take into account it still makes Chamberlain wrong and Churchill right, which is anathema to Henri.
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
1st June 2018, 12:07 PM | #1799 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
1st June 2018, 12:24 PM | #1800 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|