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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 26th May 2018, 12:03 PM   #721
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Investigate Hillary, of course.
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:05 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is it even a law?
No idea. However knowing the current government, I'm going to assume 'no'.
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:09 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
No idea. However knowing the current government, I'm going to assume 'no'.
I've seen people referring to a law passed in 2008 - signed by Bush, of course.
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:15 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You might want to fact check that, because plenty of countries have open borders.
Indeed, there's a rather interesting debate at the moment about what a disaster it would be to lose the open border between Northern and Southern Ireland as a result of Brexit...
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:17 PM   #725
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've seen people referring to a law passed in 2008 - signed by Bush, of course.
That means it's all Obama's and the democrats fault.
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Old 26th May 2018, 12:26 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's all the Democrats fault that he has to separate children from their parents and lock them up in cages then lose them. Or so he tweets.

"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there parents once they cross the Border into the U.S. Catch and Release, Lottery and Chain must also go with it and we MUST continue building the WALL! DEMOCRATS ARE PROTECTING MS-13 THUGS."
Meanwhile in upside down land:
Quote:
The president's critique of the practice of breaking up migrant families is a complete reversal of his own administration's stance. "If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law," said Attorney General Jeff Sessions earlier this month. "If you don't like that, then don't smuggle children over our border."

Trump's about-face may have been prompted by the outrage the practice has generated in recent days. Public anger was further fueled Friday and Saturday by new attention to a late April report that the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is unable to say what happened to 1,475 of 7,635 migrant children it detained, placed with sponsors, and then checked on last fall. The sponsors are typically parents or other family members and are vetted by HHS before the placement is made, but the system is far from perfect: In one case in 2016, migrant minors were handed over to human traffickers running an egg farm.

The Obama administration, which deported more people than any previous presidency, separated some families after illegal border crossings, but more often it placed them, intact, in detention camps to await their court dates. Since the family separation plan was proposed last year, at least 700 children have been taken from their parents.
The Obama era law was intended to address unaccompanied minors not to discourage families trying to cross the border.

From Fox News:
Quote:
While the law says nothing about separating families, it does say that children travelling alone from countries other than Mexico and Canada must be released in the “least restrictive setting” -- namely a family or shelter.
Trump is using separation of immigrant children from their families to extort concessions from Democratic legislators (which by the way, are not needed with the GOP in control of Congress).
Quote:
But Trump called on Democratic lawmakers to end the practice, apparently as part of a deal that includes the ending of so-called “catch and release” whereby illegal immigrants are released into America while they wait for their court hearing. He also said that the diversity lottery visa and so-called chain migration -- where immigrants can sponsor family members for visas -- must end.

“Catch and Release, Lottery and Chain must also go with it and we MUST continue building the WALL!” he tweeted.
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Old 26th May 2018, 02:42 PM   #727
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Where is the First Lady?
She seems to have disappeared, no one has seen her since she reportedly went in to hospital.

Was that a sink hole in the Whitehouse grounds or a shallow grave?
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Old 26th May 2018, 03:39 PM   #728
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You don't recover from surgery overnight. Give her a month at least.
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Old 26th May 2018, 04:00 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is the First Lady?
She seems to have disappeared, no one has seen her since she reportedly went in to hospital.

Was that a sink hole in the Whitehouse grounds or a shallow grave?
One of the greatest first ladies of all time. So classy and HOT. I love Melanie.
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Old 26th May 2018, 04:04 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
DEMOCRATS ARE PROTECTING MS-13 THUGS."
I saw a stat last night: MS-13 has reportedly killed about 200 Americans since 2012; in that time, the police have killed 900 Americans... per year. After reading that I thought, "Man, liberals hate America more than I imagined."
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Old 26th May 2018, 05:15 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I saw a stat last night: MS-13 has reportedly killed about 200 Americans since 2012; in that time, the police have killed 900 Americans... per year. After reading that I thought, "Man, liberals hate America more than I imagined."
Why stop there? How about totting up the number of, say, kids killed in school shootings since 2012? Or the number of citizens killed by family members? Or the number of those who've committed suicide? In other words, deaths by fellow citizens and not gangs or terrorists.

MS-13 is made out by some to be a scourge of frightful proportion, but actually pales in comparison to the mayhem perpetrated by otherwise 'legal' and even 'peaceful' citizens. If so much pearl clutching and hand wringing is warranted in respect of MS-13, what about the far larger issues which logically command priority?

This kind of upside down prioritizing bespeaks of a frightful and widespread ignorance which only assists in the breaking down of norms and the hastening toward fascism. The 'man in the street' interviews as done in the past by Jay Leno were conducted in a fashion more good natured and given to gentle ribbing. But the underlying fact was distressingly apparent; a too-large segment of society is woefully ill equipped to be responsible guardians of democracy.

At least some small measure of effort could be devoted to becoming aware of even just the roughest outlines of important societal issues, at the expense of knowing in the minutest detail the irrelevant desiterata of pop, celebrity and sports culture.

To focus on the circuses exclusively is to miss what is being done with the levers of power. And to be too ignorant to discern the hoodwinking only hastens the decay of society. History shows that *every* great civilization goes into decline. The signs point to this current Western civilization as fading. Why hurry it along, unless one is of the Christian evangelical persuasion, a death cult for whom the prophesied end times cannot come soon enough.
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Old 26th May 2018, 07:02 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Why stop there? How about totting up the number of, say, kids killed in school shootings since 2012? Or the number of citizens killed by family members? Or the number of those who've committed suicide? In other words, deaths by fellow citizens and not gangs or terrorists.

MS-13 is made out by some to be a scourge of frightful proportion, but actually pales in comparison to the mayhem perpetrated by otherwise 'legal' and even 'peaceful' citizens. If so much pearl clutching and hand wringing is warranted in respect of MS-13, what about the far larger issues which logically command priority?

This kind of upside down prioritizing bespeaks of a frightful and widespread ignorance which only assists in the breaking down of norms and the hastening toward fascism. The 'man in the street' interviews as done in the past by Jay Leno were conducted in a fashion more good natured and given to gentle ribbing. But the underlying fact was distressingly apparent; a too-large segment of society is woefully ill equipped to be responsible guardians of democracy.

At least some small measure of effort could be devoted to becoming aware of even just the roughest outlines of important societal issues, at the expense of knowing in the minutest detail the irrelevant desiterata of pop, celebrity and sports culture.

To focus on the circuses exclusively is to miss what is being done with the levers of power. And to be too ignorant to discern the hoodwinking only hastens the decay of society. History shows that *every* great civilization goes into decline. The signs point to this current Western civilization as fading. Why hurry it along, unless one is of the Christian evangelical persuasion, a death cult for whom the prophesied end times cannot come soon enough.
Lol

I’ve heard many liberals say this same thing. If only these rubes would give the left more power to nanny the citizenry by force, we would finally see this utopia the disgusting left idolises.

By the way, we aren’t a democracy.
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Old 26th May 2018, 08:15 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol

I’ve heard many liberals say this same thing. If only these rubes would give the left more power to nanny the citizenry by force, we would finally see this utopia the disgusting left idolises.

By the way, we aren’t a democracy.
The solution is not control by elites, either corporate or government, it's having an educated population, engaged in the issues and able to select representatives that can see beyond short-term selfish goals.

Of course the US isn't a democracy, you select your head of state giving more credence to land, not to people. It's the perfect metaphor for the US, valuing things that can be purchased over people.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:00 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol

I’ve heard many liberals say this same thing. If only these rubes would give the left more power to nanny the citizenry by force, we would finally see this utopia the disgusting left idolises.

By the way, we aren’t a democracy.
My final two paragraphs argue for the best solution; an educated electorate. We see folk who can rattle off sports statistics like human computer databases, or others who seemingly know more about celebrities than they know about themselves, but not be able to name their current Vice President, or immediately previous President, for instance. That's a shameful degree of ignorance.

Of course, such clueless-about-politics dolts probably never vote anyway. But that's too bad, too. Wide participation is better than a small number determining the course of events. As long as all are halfway informed.

Because with lower participation, the impact of that fraction of credulous, deluded, partisan supporters of a dangerous demagogue is all the more crucially felt.

I believe most on the 'left' would not advocate for some elitist scheme to disenfranchise those who are deemed ignorant, or who espouse different viewpoints. Rather, we would far and away prefer to see that the citizenry is armed with facts and possesses sufficient knowledge, understanding and discrimination to make *informed* decisions.

You on the 'right' would project upon your opponents those practices you yourselves engage in, such as voter suppression tactics like I.D. requirements, restricted hours in which to vote coupled with too few polling stations.

As to the US qualifying as a democracy... She would nonetheless seem to work--or once have worked--mightily in paying lip service to promoting democracy (along that package of qualities including Truth, Justice and the American Way.)
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:35 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
My final two paragraphs argue for the best solution; an educated electorate. We see folk who can rattle off sports statistics like human computer databases, or others who seemingly know more about celebrities than they know about themselves, but not be able to name their current Vice President, or immediately previous President, for instance. That's a shameful degree of ignorance.

Of course, such clueless-about-politics dolts probably never vote anyway. But that's too bad, too. Wide participation is better than a small number determining the course of events. As long as all are halfway informed.

Because with lower participation, the impact of that fraction of credulous, deluded, partisan supporters of a dangerous demagogue is all the more crucially felt.

I believe most on the 'left' would not advocate for some elitist scheme to disenfranchise those who are deemed ignorant, or who espouse different viewpoints. Rather, we would far and away prefer to see that the citizenry is armed with facts and possesses sufficient knowledge, understanding and discrimination to make *informed* decisions.

You on the 'right' would project upon your opponents those practices you yourselves engage in, such as voter suppression tactics like I.D. requirements, restricted hours in which to vote coupled with too few polling stations.

As to the US qualifying as a democracy... She would nonetheless seem to work--or once have worked--mightily in paying lip service to promoting democracy (along that package of qualities including Truth, Justice and the American Way.)
The uncorrupted vote is essential to having a healthy country. ID laws are very simple and easy to comply with. If you’re too dumb to have an ID, you shouldn’t vote. I find I fascinating you’re on about being educated in civics but you’re having a problem with voter ID?

And the thought of a person with no ID being so busy they can’t vote within the time frame is absolutely hilarious, it’s been one day to vote for how many years, but the low education democrat voter just can’t get it done. Lol

I also find it hilarious you think the left wouldn’t disenfranchise the voter, the left has been hiding what they truly believe for decades. Why do you think NO ONE wants to be called a leftist?
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:37 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The solution is not control by elites, either corporate or government, it's having an educated population, engaged in the issues and able to select representatives that can see beyond short-term selfish goals.

Of course the US isn't a democracy, you select your head of state giving more credence to land, not to people. It's the perfect metaphor for the US, valuing things that can be purchased over people.
That really did make me laugh out loud!

It’s actually done so the majority cannot dictate over the minority. Exactly what you rail against! Hilarious!
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:49 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I also find it hilarious you think the left wouldn’t disenfranchise the voter, the left has been hiding what they truly believe for decades.
If this is true - how would you know? How would those joining "the left" know?
And what happens to the people who actually do believe what "the left" claims to believe? Where do they fit in if they're not part of "the left"?
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:56 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If this is true - how would you know? How would those joining "the left" know?
And what happens to the people who actually do believe what "the left" claims to believe? Where do they fit in if they're not part of "the left"?
I gave you a hint, you didn’t quote it.
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:01 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
That really did make me laugh out loud!

It’s actually done so the majority cannot dictate over the minority. Exactly what you rail against! Hilarious!
So the better situation is to have the minority dictate over the majority? Like installing the candidate who gets over 3 million fewer votes? Like permitting extreme Gerrymandering that nets a win with less support? That's to be preferred, is it? By that reasoning, shouldn't we *always* install the candidate with the *least* support?
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:25 AM   #740
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One way to try to appreciate how Trump supporters have completely deluded themselves into utter blindness...

Recall the televised Cabinet meeting shortly after the Parkland school shooting. Trump was in a seemingly conciliatory mood. At one point, where the discussion concerned the prospective handling of those exhibiting dangerous tendencies, he stated something along the lines of, "Take the guns first, then due process second."

Imagine if Obama had ever said such a thing? As a body the right would have blown aneurysms in their enraged apoplexy.

Now, in the case of Trump it can certainly be argued that his minders would most likely steer him from pursuing any course which would be so egregious to the rightist hive. But it's worth bearing in mind that his instability and unpredictability could render as possible that in a sufficient fit of pique he could take most any precipitous action. That's one aspect of the Faustian bargain the right has made in hoisting Trump to power. To them, an unstable man-child is the preferred person to represent their nation because they think he's controllable.

Well, watch out when Meuller and co. close in. The until now seeming Teflon Donnie is gonna lash out like a cornered animal, and many of the enablers will rue the day they switched off their brains and went over to the orange side. It's gonna end in tears for a lot o' fools.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:03 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
That really did make me laugh out loud!

It’s actually done so the majority cannot dictate over the minority. Exactly what you rail against! Hilarious!
Majority of what? Why should geography empower the strength of a vote? it makes no sense to me.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:47 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Majority of what? Why should geography empower the strength of a vote? it makes no sense to me.
Its complicated, but lots of YouTube videos on the intent, strengths and weaknesses of the Electoral College system.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:51 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Its complicated, but lots of YouTube videos on the intent, strengths and weaknesses of the Electoral College system.
Even if you think it is a strong system, it wasn't designed to fix the size of the house of representatives. It would have a lot more support if the population to electoral strength ratios were the same as 1796.
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Old 27th May 2018, 06:17 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Its complicated, but lots of YouTube videos on the intent, strengths and weaknesses of the Electoral College system.
Mostly to justify a pre-existing position, which is to be expected.

We have over 500,000 elections (give or take in a given year) in this country; all are decided by majority rule except one.
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Old 27th May 2018, 06:20 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Mostly to justify a pre-existing position, which is to be expected.

We have over 500,000 elections (give or take in a given year) in this country; all are decided by majority rule except one.
There is only one where multiple states participate.

ETA: actually it is extremely consistent with those 500,000 elections. All those elections are handled entirely by populations in a single state. Electors are handled in a single state. Having populations across multiple states vote for a single office would be unique.

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Old 27th May 2018, 06:28 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Mostly to justify a pre-existing position, which is to be expected.

We have over 500,000 elections (give or take in a given year) in this country; all are decided by majority rule except one.
I suppose, but even the way the Senate is set up modifies pure majority rule, at least in the legislative branch, does it not? What I mean is, Alaska has exactly the same representation in the Senate as California.

I'm not so much making a case for the Electoral College, so much as asserting a case can be made.
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Old 27th May 2018, 06:32 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Majority of what? Why should geography empower the strength of a vote? it makes no sense to me.

It was for much the same reason that slaves counted as 3/5ths of a person for the census count.

And even after slavery has been abolished it seems to have a similar effect.
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Old 27th May 2018, 07:48 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I suppose, but even the way the Senate is set up modifies pure majority rule, at least in the legislative branch, does it not? What I mean is, Alaska has exactly the same representation in the Senate as California.

I'm not so much making a case for the Electoral College, so much as asserting a case can be made.
The Senate sucks as well for the same reasons. My votes don't count as much as minority right wingers. It wasn't as much of an issue when the Congress was more bipartisan. Now that the country is so divided it's a serious issue. Add in that the far right controls the GOP, they are trying to suppress votes, gerrymandering more, and stuffing the federal court system with religious and Ayn Rand ideologues and you have a Constitutional disaster unfolding.

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Old 27th May 2018, 08:12 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I gave you a hint, you didn’t quote it.
Could you perhaps be explicit?
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Old 27th May 2018, 08:37 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The uncorrupted vote is essential to having a healthy country. ID laws are very simple and easy to comply with. If you’re too dumb to have an ID, you shouldn’t vote. I find I fascinating you’re on about being educated in civics but you’re having a problem with voter ID?

And the thought of a person with no ID being so busy they can’t vote within the time frame is absolutely hilarious, it’s been one day to vote for how many years, but the low education democrat voter just can’t get it done. Lol

I also find it hilarious you think the left wouldn’t disenfranchise the voter, the left has been hiding what they truly believe for decades. Why do you think NO ONE wants to be called a leftist?
Oh look! A post that has absolutely no bearing on reality.

Please, continue.
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Old 27th May 2018, 09:10 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The uncorrupted vote is essential to having a healthy country. ID laws are very simple and easy to comply with. If you’re too dumb to have an ID, you shouldn’t vote. I find I fascinating you’re on about being educated in civics but you’re having a problem with voter ID?
Let us start with the easy question. How do you determine if something is sufficiently easy and simple? I'm not asking about voter ID laws. I'm asking about a generic thing.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:14 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Could you perhaps be explicit?
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:40 PM   #753
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:54 PM   #754
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
So the better situation is to have the minority dictate over the majority? Like installing the candidate who gets over 3 million fewer votes? Like permitting extreme Gerrymandering that nets a win with less support? That's to be preferred, is it? By that reasoning, shouldn't we *always* install the candidate with the *least* support?
It’s so a few large cities filled with people who want others to pay their way because they are greedy and selfish, can’t force us into their devious, disgusting plan.
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Old 27th May 2018, 12:56 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Majority of what? Why should geography empower the strength of a vote? it makes no sense to me.
Because we aren’t a democracy, our government has many checks and balances.
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Old 27th May 2018, 01:20 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Because we aren’t a democracy, our government has many checks and balances.
That is not a check or a balance on the exercise of governmental power - that is a way of telling one group of people that, so far as having a say in government, that some people are more important than others.
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:10 PM   #757
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
That is not a check or a balance on the exercise of governmental power - that is a way of telling one group of people that, so far as having a say in government, that some people are more important than others.
Actually the opposite, it creates a fairness in the vote and government that doesn’t allow the majority vote to always win. So that, once AGAIN, a few loser cities cannot dictate to the rest of the country.

It has also made our country the best in the world.
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:31 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
It has also made our country the best in the world.
By what metric?
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:54 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Because we aren’t a democracy, our government has many checks and balances.
Checks and balances refers to the roles of the three co-equal branches of government. It has nothing to do with voting. The presidency and the VP are probably the only -- certainly the only major -- public offices in America where the winner of the election isn't necessarily the candidate who received the most votes.
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Old 27th May 2018, 07:31 PM   #760
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