|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
7th November 2017, 09:22 AM | #361 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Everybody has the right to try. Nobody is entitled to recognition if they try and fail.
Molon labe. Possession is nine tenths of the law. It's better to ask forgiveness than permission. "Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? / Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason." |
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
7th November 2017, 09:47 AM | #362 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
I don't have that notion at all. The Sudeteners of 1938 were not settlers. They were the descendants of people who had been invited to enter the country more than half a millennium previously.
But in any case I don't think they were entitled to transfer any land from Czechoslovakia to the German Reich. |
1st December 2017, 09:16 AM | #363 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
The appeasement policy of Chamberlain was right judgement from a military perspective.
|
1st December 2017, 10:46 AM | #364 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
|
1st December 2017, 02:00 PM | #365 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,282
|
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
20th December 2017, 02:49 AM | #366 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Americans seem to think that negotiations are appeasement. It's the utmost folly when nuclear weapons are involved, even though force may have to be used.
Jaw Jaw is better than War War as Churchill once said. |
14th January 2018, 01:48 AM | #367 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 358
|
Politicians who supported the policy of appeasement did so because they felt Germany had been unfairly treated after WW1. For instance, the Germans surrendered in 1918 after agreeing to Wilson's 14 Points. The British had a starvation blockade in place and refused to lift it until Germany signed the Versailles Treaty making that country solely responsible for causing WW1. This starvation blockade caused 900 000 civilian deaths -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10005 Also if you look at the details on disarmament in the Versailles Treaty all the countries involved were supposed to disarm. Only Germany did. When the other countries (Britain, France, Belgium etc) refused to disarm Hitler ordered the rearming of his country - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7937 The millions of deaths in WW1 were another reason for appeasement. A series of negotiated agreements and a peaceful revision of the Versailles Treaty were preferable to another bloodbath - https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...an-propaganda/ https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/...new-world-war/ https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2018/...-did-not-want/ |
14th January 2018, 05:26 AM | #368 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
Twisting history? Germany surrendered on 11 November 1918 because collapse of the front was imminent. In those circumstances, Ludendorff pressed Hindenburg and the Kaiser to accept whatever terms, had two MPs sent to Compičgne to sign and later developed the Stab-in-the-Back legend that it was those dastardly socialists who had undermined the war effort.
Of course, the British blockade was only naval in nature. I'm not going to debate the numbers, but interestingly, the Hague Conventions on War allow a blockade only when it's effective, so the higher number of deaths you cite, the more you argue for its legality. And the British allowed food to be imported from January 1919 on. And the blockade had nothing to do with the so-called "War Guilt Clause", which was not a guilt clause at all, but only meant to underpin German legal responsibility to pay reparations. The same clause existed in the other Paris suburbs treaties with the other Central Powers, and none of them bitched about that. And let's stop bitching about the height of the German reparations. Germany paid only about 20bn Goldmarks until it stopped paying in 1931, and the payments amounted only to about 2% of the national income. By comparison, the 1871 Treaty of Frankfurt required France to pay 5bn Goldfrancs within 4 years on a national income of 22bn Goldfrancs (link). |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
14th January 2018, 09:08 AM | #369 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
|
Germany had a blockade on the UK as well. U-Boats nearly brought Britain to starvation.
Britain relied on sea routes for supply. Germany has a much longer land border than a sea coast. It didn't rely on shipping in food entirely. Conveniently forgotten by Mondial. There was a war on. |
14th January 2018, 10:08 AM | #370 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
In a way I agree that the Treaty of Versailles was unfair and there were economists like Keynes who said so at the time. The trouble was that the political situation in the world became very complex during the 1930s. There were quite a few people in high places like the Right club in the UK, including a descendent of the Duke of Wellington who were sympathetic to Hitler and Japan, and Nazis were not unknown in America. The British fascist Oswald Mosley was praised to high heaven in the British Press by the Times and Daily Mail and even the Guardian, or Manchester Guardian as it then was.
Just sticking to the British Royal family, the Duke of Windsor was put under surveillance and his telephone tapped by a detective from Scotland Yard secret political police called Albert Canning and the Duke was overheard telling Americans not to enter the war because it was now too late. Churchill with his 'with what' strategy supported the Duke of Windsor and Lloyd George in his later years was quite sympathetic to Hitler. I don't know if the Duke of Kent was mixed up in all this but I wouldn't be surprised. Chamberlain gets unfairly blamed for appeasement, but he was the one who got The RAF and radar organised and the country prepared for war and conscription introduced. King George V1 never wanted to be king and he was later described by the comedian Michael Bentine as a damn good king. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10306121.html |
14th January 2018, 10:13 AM | #371 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
|
Well, if comedian Michael Bentine thinks he was a good king that settles it.
|
14th January 2018, 04:54 PM | #372 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
15th January 2018, 02:57 AM | #373 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,632
|
Well.
There used to be a buzz that the king had some kind of speech impediment. There was even a suspicion that he bombed himself before each speech, which would indeed explain his performances. Luckily he had a teacher, who knew how to doodle the text in a way the king could pronounce better. This speech made a real impact. I know this because I've seen this documentary once. |
15th January 2018, 03:09 AM | #374 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
16th January 2018, 05:09 AM | #375 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
There is a bit about this in the book Modern Money and Unemployment published in 1964 by Isidore Ostrer:
Quote:
|
16th January 2018, 08:00 AM | #376 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
16th January 2018, 09:25 AM | #377 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Our secret service were well aware of Hitler's intentions from at least 1934 and that information would have been conveyed to Chamberlain though secrecy would have been preserved. That doesn't mean that Chamberlain should have gone rushing off to war with outdated RAF planes and a Churchill 'with what' strategy. That could have resulted in defeat and it was touch and go in 1940. Australia and Canada and New Zealand and South Africa and Rhodesia were opposed to war in 1938 and America was none too keen to get involved at the time. A politician who has to introduce conscription can't do so without public support Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...rence-of-1937/ |
16th January 2018, 09:36 AM | #378 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
16th January 2018, 10:07 AM | #379 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,229
|
|
16th January 2018, 10:18 AM | #380 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
|
16th January 2018, 11:09 AM | #381 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 9,071
|
|
23rd January 2018, 04:19 AM | #382 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
There was some silly journalist on the Press Review on Sky TV a few days ago saying that the leader of the British UKIP political party is the worst leader since Chamberlain. I think Chamberlain was a very clever man, and a man of wide and practical experience. He gets unfairly blamed for appeasement by ignoramus journalists and Churchill historians. He was no pacifist.
|
23rd January 2018, 04:34 AM | #383 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
|
23rd January 2018, 04:49 AM | #384 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
23rd January 2018, 06:55 AM | #385 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,282
|
That's why he throw us to Nazi Germany. Because he was no pacifist. Well, that might make twisted sense. He wanted massive world war, so he throw one of countries with well developed military industry and healthy economic base to Germany, so they had some chance at war...
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
4th February 2018, 03:02 AM | #386 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
The Czechs would have lasted about three weeks, like Poland. Then what and with what? Chamberlain had right judgment, even if you call it appeasement.
|
4th February 2018, 04:29 AM | #387 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,282
|
We had mutual defense treaty with both France and Britain. (Also with Soviet union)
You turned your back on us. You betrayed us. And as a consequence and reward you caused and got biggest war so far! You got what you wanted to prevent. You gave Hitler what he wanted and thus enabled his war of conquest. Without Czechoslovakian republic Hitler would not be able to launch it. We were final piece he had to have for his war. Chamberlain had one of the worst judgements ever! In short, you are WRONG! ETA: And it is questionable if we would really fall in 5 weeks. And even if so, it would deplete resources of Germany to severe extent. They would have to destroy what they wanted (factories) And resistance would be far more effective because registry of population would be of no use anymore. |
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
4th February 2018, 05:08 AM | #388 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
How would it have been like the Poles? The Czechs had much better natural defences, the Panzer divisions barely existed, the Luftwaffe was far weaker and there was no Molotov-Ribentropp Pact so Germany would have struggled for resources to keep their war machine running. Oh and in an invasion much of that Czech equipment and industrial capacity that was massively important to Germany in the build up to the invasion of Poland would have been destroyed so any offence in the west would have been far weaker.
The time bought by Munich may have benefited the UK, but it may have benefited Nazi Germany far more. |
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
4th February 2018, 05:23 AM | #389 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Excellent point. The USSR had an alliance with Czechoslovakia, and even if she had not gone to war with Germany on account of it, she would not have helped Germany as she did in the destruction of Poland, a common enemy of Germany and Russia.
It is often argued that the Nazi Soviet Pact made WW2 possible, and it has been condemned on that account. If so, then the friendly relations between CS and the USSR would have made a general war impossible for Germany to contemplate. And would have made a local war against CS extremely expensive for Hitler both in resources and in diplomatic credit. Further aggressive military adventures by him might well have been prevented or deterred. Czech tanks were so good, by the way, that Hitler used trophy ones - he never had to fight them in Czechoslovakia - in his campaign against France the following May. |
4th February 2018, 05:42 AM | #390 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,282
|
Thanks to both of you for providing better articulation of what I tried to say.
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
4th February 2018, 06:14 AM | #391 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
It should also be noted that Stalin was mightily pissed off by Munich. The UK and France had sold out his ally and he wasn't even invited at the table. That also contributed to his decision to break down talks with the UK and France and go for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
The Czech 37t tanks also formed the core of the German Panzer divisions in the Polish campaign. |
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
4th February 2018, 09:33 AM | #392 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,040
|
They chassis and running gear were used to build the Hetzers, my favourite German armour.
|
4th February 2018, 10:05 AM | #393 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
To say nothing of the design of the Bren gun - used by the British Army up to the Falklands
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
4th February 2018, 10:18 AM | #394 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
There was nothing stopping the Czechs from going to war with Germany on their own in 1938 except that Hitler threatened the Czech prime minister at the time with bombing Prague:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...r_seventy.html |
4th February 2018, 10:32 AM | #395 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 6,140
|
Which has nothing to do with what you claimed earlier. Could you please address all/any of the points raised about the actual strategic situation that contradict your claim that the Czech republic would have lasted three weeks and Munich was the right decision? Or can we expect yet more silence before you dredge up some non-sequitur from a 60 year old book?
|
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX |
|
4th February 2018, 11:00 AM | #396 |
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 14,282
|
|
__________________
ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400 |
|
4th February 2018, 11:31 AM | #397 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
5th February 2018, 04:02 AM | #398 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 5,229
|
Just the bolded bit, but in relation to everyone else the Luftwaffe was pretty much at its peak. Remember, that's in relation. Britain and France had next to nothing that could go up against the 109, for example.
In essence, the Luftwaffe were ahead of the curve, though they would start to lose ground by 1940. |
5th February 2018, 07:16 AM | #399 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 989
|
Also, not sure how much credence to give this, but I have read that many German officers at the time hoped for a war over Czechoslovakia as it would be so difficult and bloody that they would be able to act against the regime due to its unpopularity. When it went the smooth way of all Hitler's previous adventures they felt they had lost a last chance to try and resist.
|
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid. |
|
5th February 2018, 08:39 AM | #400 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
I know it has been said in the past that German officers would have opposed Hitler if an invasion of the Czechs happened. It's just you need to be in touch with reality about all that. Nobody was stopping those German officers, least of all Chamberlain, if that's what they wanted to do. Later on officers from German military intelligence, like Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster, were in touch with MI6, and there were bomb plots against Hitler, none of them successful.
It's also sad for the Czechs, and I agree to the benefit of German military strength that Britain was in no condition to go to war in 1938. It would have ended in disaster. That is not Chamberlain's fault. There is a bit about all this in an internet article:
Quote:
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|