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28th May 2017, 07:41 AM | #161 |
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So you knew about his trial. Why then did you assume he went unconvicted, and mentioned him in one breath with Mengele, who indeed evaded being captured? Do you have any other example of a hihg-profile Nazi - and one, at that, who was so cruel to earn the nickname "Butcher of Lyon" - who went to trial and was acquitted?
I never paid attention to his particular methods of torture, but Google throws up nothing on that. The wiki article I linked to says this:
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29th May 2017, 08:28 AM | #162 |
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Many of these SS and Gestapo types were never identified after the war. Some were executed and others given lenient sentences. There is a bit about all this in a book called the Secret Hunters by Anthony Kemp published in 1986 and with quotes by Prince Yurka Galitzine:
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29th May 2017, 09:13 AM | #163 |
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but one of the two that you named was convicted.
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29th May 2017, 09:20 AM | #164 |
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The book you refer to appears to be about SAS agents hunting down German servicemen who murdered captured commandos in obedience to criminal orders from Hitler. More of these perpetrators are likely to have remained undiscovered, or been acquitted, as such murders of POWs most often took place during or soon after armed action.
The statement you quote from Prince Golitzine unfortunately contains childish material like this For many years I just could not bear to be in the same room with a German and it made me absolutely shake. But then after forty years one learns that there are a lot of different facets to a nation.Many people learn that in less than forty years. |
29th May 2017, 11:34 AM | #165 |
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That doesn't answer my questions:
(1) as you knew that Barbie was put on trial, why did you claim he went unconvicted? (2) why did you make up the stuff about Barbie dumping bodies in lime pits? Was the actual torture he committed not gruesome enough (in fact, IMHO, more gruesome)? |
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30th May 2017, 05:24 AM | #166 |
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31st May 2017, 02:19 AM | #167 |
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I still think that if I traded places with Chamberlain in some fantasy land I would have done exactly the same thing in his position. Some say Chamberlain's so-called appeasement policy, and his famous piece of paper, was based on military judgement at the time. I think that's fair comment.
There is a quote in a biography book called Sir Antony Eden about the hare brained Edenites like Churchill by Alan Campbell-Johnson published in 1955:
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Britain seems to have signed the Geneva convention on prisoners of war, unlike Isis/Taliban now, who have also never signed the UN convention on chemical warfare, or on beheadings. The International Criminal Court should be informed of this. For some unknown reason the Russians never signed any of those agreements and they suffered greatly in the war as a result. The British investigated some German war criminals after the war as it affected murdered Britishers, and British agents. The Israeli Mossad tracked down German war criminals in South America, including Eichman who was executed. The Americans quickly regarded German war criminals as being on their side, while as far as I know the Russians did practically nothing about German war criminals. It's true that only a small percentage of German prisoners of war taken to Siberia ever returned home. Somebody on that World at War TV documentary said that about a million Russian prisoners of war were shot dead by the Germans. Others were tortured or made slave labour. That's monstrous. There is some background information to this on the internet:
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31st May 2017, 02:52 AM | #168 |
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I'm not sure what your post is about, but with regard to that point about ISIS: I don't think it would be regarded as competent to sign undertakings of that kind, as it is not recognised as a legitimate state. In November 2015, the UN Security Council declared SC/12132, 20 November 2015
The Security Council determined today that the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant/Sham (ISIL/ISIS) constituted an “unprecedented” threat to international peace and security, calling upon Member States with the requisite capacity to take “all necessary measures” to prevent and suppress its terrorist acts on territory under its control in Syria and Iraq.In 1938 the governments involved in the various international transactions were all recognised as legitimate and competent to sign treaties and make other commitments. |
9th June 2017, 02:34 AM | #169 |
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Churchill and the public and the House of Commons and mainstream media thought the German threat of invasion, with amazing complacency, had been exaggerated. This was not a view shared by the British High Command who thought that a wrong answer may mean the end of life as we have known it in this country and the end of the British Empire.
From the diaries of General, later Field Marshal, Alan Brooke:
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9th June 2017, 02:59 AM | #170 |
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Brooke was having a bit of a mental tizzy there.
A Para drop in Hyde Park would have been a disaster for the Germans. Dropping paras with no support, and no chance of support for weeks (not days), is simply throwing away your troops. Look at Arnhem and Crete, both of which were planned to receive land support within days. |
9th June 2017, 09:11 AM | #171 |
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10th June 2017, 06:36 AM | #172 |
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11th June 2017, 04:19 AM | #173 |
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing. There were two SS divisions opposing the landings at Arnhem. Crete was a victory in the end for the German paratroopers. General Alan Brooke was not so sure about the situation at that time as people seem to be nowadays. This is from his diaries of September 15th 1940:
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12th June 2017, 03:08 AM | #174 |
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Quite.
The only major success was the drop on Eben Emael. And they were relieved in about 24 hours. Crete cost the Germans their airborne force. Arnhem was supposed to be relieved in 3 days. What German force could have got across the channel and into London to relieve a few hundred paras in 3 days? |
12th June 2017, 06:11 AM | #175 |
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13th June 2017, 12:49 AM | #176 |
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13th June 2017, 02:44 AM | #177 |
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13th June 2017, 03:29 AM | #178 |
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One of these days I'll actually read up on Suez...
Obviously there were lots of successful drops, but all of them had the idea of being relieved within a couple of days at most. Dropping in a park in London doesn't really fit the bill. I was thinking of other issues with it...how would you handle the landing? I know London had blackouts, but wouldn't any pathfinders have issues? How are you supposed to guide the rest of the paras in? As I say, the most likely explanation for Brooke's comment is he was having a tizzy at the time over the initial reports coming in from the continent. May was not a happy time. |
13th June 2017, 03:39 AM | #179 |
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13th June 2017, 03:58 AM | #180 |
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13th June 2017, 04:21 AM | #181 |
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24th June 2017, 02:26 AM | #182 |
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World war II and appeasement came to an end in 1939. This is from a book called Sir Anthony Eden by Alan Campbell-Johnson published in 1955:
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24th June 2017, 03:18 AM | #183 |
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24th June 2017, 08:47 AM | #184 |
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7th July 2017, 01:59 AM | #185 |
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There is a difference between appeasement and being hare-brained.
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7th July 2017, 04:49 AM | #186 |
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8th July 2017, 05:56 PM | #187 |
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It was also a near run disaster for the Germans. Hitler needed to eliminate Crete has a possible base for aircraft to threaten his rear during the upcoming Operation Barbarossa and it had to be done quickly Hence the planning for the operation was slapdash and poor. Student's plan was quite simply bad. Basically trying to capture three widely separated airports at the same time along with very poor planning in terms of the planning for each attack. Student would have been better off concentrating on one airfield and relying on small detachments and German air superiority to keep reinforcements at bay. Instead he tried to do too much and the result was near catastrophe for the Germans.
May 20th was a disaster for the Germans, casualties were horrific among the paratroopers. The Germans were able to win because they were able to gain control of the airport at Malme early on the 21st of May due to their own fighting prowess and what can only be called an in excusable mistake by the local British commanders at the airfield who withdrew on the night of the 20th-21st of May. leaving the airport to the Germans. Student took advantage of that along with German air supremacy to send enough troops through to Malme to secure victory. Interestingly the local Greek Army contingents and local Cretans fought very well despite a lack of arms. The British failure to distribute arms to these forces is in retrospect a serious mistake. As it is given that the British had superior numbers, (They also had Ultra intercepts.), were on the defensive and Student's plan was a disaster waiting to happen. It is remarkable that the Germans won at all. But has it is the British made their own serious mistakes which in the end more than counter balanced German errors. 1. They apparently didn't think that the airports were that crucial to a successful German invasion by parachute. In fact it appears that the British thought that the Germans didn't need airports land troops in by plane. They actually thought the Germans could land troops anywhere there was level ground. 2. In all the many months they were on the island the British did not arrange to arm the local population or the local Greek Army units. The result is these forces fought half armed or armed with captured German equipment during the battle. Despite the above and of course German air supremacy, which created huge problems for the British, the Germans still came within a whisker of catastrophe. If a few units had not withdrawn from the area of Malme Airfield on the night of the 20th-21st of May 1941 it is extremely likely the Germans would have lost. As it is Student didn't lose his desire for more mass airborne operations, proposing Malta, Cyprus and even Port Said for future operations. Hitler because of the heavy losses and near failure, thought differently and the Germans engaged in very few airborne operations for the rest of the war. It also appears the Hitler realized that Students plan had been poor and had lost confidence in him has a planner of such operations. |
11th July 2017, 09:42 AM | #188 |
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There is an interesting reference to appeasement in general in a 1932 book called English Justice written by a solicitor:
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11th July 2017, 10:22 AM | #189 |
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12th July 2017, 01:49 AM | #190 |
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What does any of that have to do with appeasement in any case, eve if it were the case?
Just to add to what erwinl says, the Gloire was launched end of 1859. The Warrior (which was a far better ship, and made the Gloire pretty much instantly obsolete) was launched at the end of 1860. Not exactly a case of our navy holding back. |
12th July 2017, 03:05 AM | #191 |
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12th July 2017, 03:16 AM | #192 |
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highlighted
Huh!? This is simply not true. It is as if that person has never seen a picture of Warrior. The propellor shaft is underwater now and that is with Warriors diminished draft (her not carrying any coals, ammo and other stuff). With a full load, the shaft is even deeper under water. Should be, because a propellor shaft above water would not work for a ship like that (or any ship for that matter). Considering the highlighted nonsense in this quote. What else is nonsense as well? edit: I've found the abstract. It is even worse than the quote you mentioned above. |
12th July 2017, 03:23 AM | #193 |
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Which was not, of course, the point that was being made; the point being made was that HMS Warrior, in service the year after La Gloire, was a superior ship, and that the Royal Navy did not therefore ignore the superiority of ironclads over wooden warships. Rather, it adopted a very sensible policy of "imitate and overtake", producing superior designs to the initial French ironclads and then relying on superior industrial capacity to build up a significantly superior force.
I suggest you read it yourself. It comprehensively refutes the point you were trying to make with your earlier, and very poorly informed, quote. Dave |
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12th July 2017, 06:32 AM | #194 |
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14th July 2017, 06:20 PM | #195 |
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Churchill's Appeasement
Churchill was guilty of appeasement of Stalin. He agreed at Yalta to give Poland to the Soviet Union. This was after fully knowing what a murderous tyrant Stalin was as he had helped to cover up the Katyn massacre for him.
www.heretical.com/miscellx/churchil.html The Soviet Union invaded Poland on September 17 1939 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland Churchill completely ignored this and appeased Stalin after the soviet-nazi war broke out. Then in 1945 he agrees to Poland being given to Stalin. The entire British Empire (Australia, Canada, Fiji, India, New Zealand, South Africa etc) went to war because Germany invaded Poland and yet Churchill hands it over to Stalin at wars end. It made a mockery of the reason for going to war in the first place - www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYJ1_RG2xS4 |
16th July 2017, 01:55 AM | #196 |
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You mean because Churchill complied with Stalin (who occupied Poland in 1944-45 because he wanted to, and had the opportunity), that justifies Hitler's invasion of 1939? Stalin presented his incursion into Poland (justifiably) as intended to evict the Germans from that country; he created a Polish government (of a kind agreeable to himself, needless to say) and committed crimes, but not genocide. Nothing in Stalin's behaviour, or the Allies' response to it, justifies Hitler's unprovoked prior invasion of Poland, or the fiendish atrocities perpetrated there by the Nazis.
Your linked source, by the way, has another piece of alleged information about Churchill, that you have omitted from your post. Here it is. ‘Cunning, no doubt, came to Churchill in the Jewish genes transmitted by his mother Lady Randolph Churchill, née Jenny Jacobson/Jerome.’ETA Another item from the same source. International Jewry declared war against Germany in 1933 simply because the German government had removed Jews from influential positions and transferred power back to the German people. |
17th July 2017, 02:20 AM | #197 |
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I agree that both Roosevelt and Churchill, and even Eisenhower, can be accused of appeasement at Yalta with Stalin in 1945 with regard to Poland and Poland's elections and frontiers. This despite the fact it was obvious that Stalin had treated the Poles abominably by not giving them practical encouragement during the Warsaw uprising, and also Stalin was determined to install a Soviet administration in Poland. The excuse would probably be that it was necessary to keep Russia in the war as it was still not won.
I remember once reading a book by the Polish General Anders who fought with the Allies during the war. He said that the Germans were defeated by General Mud and General Frost, and then he called for Britain and America to march on Moscow. The problem with that was the UK was nearly bankrupt then, and it would not have been supported by public opinion. I think it was sad that no Polish troops or airmen attended the Victory Parade in 1945, possibly in order not to offend Stalin. Churchill can also be accused of appeasement in agreeing to Roosevelt's demands at the beginning of the war for self determination of the British colonies, and for them to be given to the black people, though I agree we could not have held on to India after the war. I still think that Putin is not Stalin and that there is no evidence, as the Liberal politician Shirley Williams thinks, that Putin desperately wants to annexe the Baltic states. There is a bit about this matter in a book called Sir Anthony Eden by Alan Campbell-Johnson published in 1955:
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17th July 2017, 02:31 AM | #198 |
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There are people now, including the former British ambassador to Bonn in the 1950s, Sir Roy Denman, who think it was a mistake for Chamberlain to give Poland a guarantee in 1939 and to introduce conscription and that Britain should have stayed out of the war. I find this extraordinary. Britain and even Canada and America would have been next after Russia was defeated, and with Panzers and the Luftwaffe a few miles off of the South Coast of the UK.
Harold Nicholson once wrote that three nobleman at his club had told him they would prefer a Nazi government in London to a Corbyn style government because Corbyn doesn't have a talent for business. They were the real appeasers and not Chamberlain. |
17th July 2017, 04:07 AM | #199 |
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17th July 2017, 04:36 AM | #200 |
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No where near enough perspective is given to the influence of WWI on the decisions made in the run up to WWII. All of the politicians involved clearly remembered WWI. The British and French did not want an all powerful Germany upsetting the balance of power. After allowing it to return to WWI size, they watched as the expansion continued, hoping war could be avoided, but they had to draw a line in the sand, which was Poland. The aim was keep a balance of power so no one would want to fight anyone else and destroy each other. It was like the later MAD policy re nuclear weapons.
I also think that not enough attention is spent on what Hitler actually wanted. His aim was Lebensraum in the east, removal of the Jews and a buffer against communism. He hoped to get that with France and the British keeping out, thinking they would support his fight with communism. There was also enough anti-Semitism in Britain and France for him to think they would not be too concerned about the Jewish people. He did not recognise fascism is just another anti-democratic, repressive, dictatorship, which would also be opposed. |
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