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2nd December 2017, 08:19 AM | #161 |
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The only thing I agree with is that, yes, a fairly normal person may become so enraged by having a member of his family raped or killed that he resorts to vigilante behavior. So, yes, somebody with normal empathy may, in a very special situation, treat a perpetrator without any empathy or compassion. But this example is pretty contrived if you compare it with the (apparent) repeat offender Weinstein. Nothing seems to indicate that these women had harmed him in any way that would make him long for revenge.
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I know why you "gave that scenario": You wanted to compare the Weinstein case(s) with an imaginary example that had absolutely nothing to do with his specific behavior, in order to make it seem likely that he's an ordinary, compassionate person. But the problem is that the two scenarios are totally different, so your imaginary one doesn't really make your attempt to equip him with (fictitious) empathy any more probable. It is just as contrived as your diabetic!
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Sociopaths don't usually have therapists. They are not the ones who suffer most from their sociopathy. And they are able to come up with rationalizations without the aid of therapy.
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Once again your example is extremely contrived: Unless you're and total ******* that they're better off without, you're hurting your wife and kids if you get yourself run over and killed or seriously maimed by a car. When we are talking about sociopaths or psychopaths, intention is important: Did your father want to harm his family by smoking? Did he smoke in order to hurt them? Or was he misled by a combination of tobacco propaganda and his own addiction into thinking that it probably wouldn't hurt him (and consequently his family)? I don't know why you want to commit suicide ...
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Man, this is futile! Has anybody in this thread claimed that sociopaths are "a different species of human"?! Not as far as I recall! Are you even familiar with the concept of the strawman argument? They actually "are just like me and you" … if you neglect to consider the one thing that makes them sociopaths: "certain defects in their thinking processes." You can do the same exercise with everything and everybody: Billionaires, for instance, are just like you and me, albeit with stuff worth at least a billion dollars in their portfolio. See how easy your little game is?! A billionaire is not a billionaire if you take away the thing that makes him one. The same thing goes for sociopaths, obviously. And, no, that is not the definition of mental illness.
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I'm sorry, but even if he is fond of his dog, that wouldn't make him any less of a psycho.
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If they knew and understood the case and still "had no empathy for the victim" and even "displayed an extreme lack of empathy for the victim," then they are psychopaths. I'm a little surprised that you seem to consider that kind of behavior normal! (That psychopaths are able to find each other much more efficiently these days of the social media is no surprise.)
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Wow! Once again you are contradicting yourself blatantly! I thought that everybody engages in bad behaviors, and now you're telling us that some sociopaths don't?! I think that your diagnosis comes as a surprise to everybody, in particular, professional psychologists and psychiatrists, because that is one of the most absurd contradictions in terms I've ever come across: sociopaths who don't "engage in bad behaviors." This is what happens when you stretch the concepts to the extent where they don't make any kind of sense anymore. I think that your line of reasoning goes like this: 1) rape is just another example of one of your favorite abstractions: "bad behavior", and 2) you may claim that everybody exhibits bad behavior, especially if you include all smokers and 'misbehaving' diabetics, and since 3) not all sociopaths rape, you conclude that not all sociopaths engage in bad behavior. The irony here is that you are the one who has now excluded (some of) these guys from the rest of humanity, and only because you are so fond of them that you can't allow them to be criticized!
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Because unlike the diabetic and your father, they know that they are hurting people, and they don't care. Maybe you should tell your mother that story!
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You've only managed to demonstrate your own confusion.
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No, it doesn't. A schizophrenic, a borderliner and a manic-depressive go into a bar … to have beer. Most of the time these guys are in possession of a lot of rational sense. You, however, are inventing another crazy definition of mental illness that makes no sense at all.
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There are many differences between different mental disorders. Look it up if you never heard! Sociopaths are as different from bipolars as from the rest of us. Again you seem to be unable to juggle the concept of abstractions. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 09:56 AM | #162 |
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If the perpetrator didn’t come up with some reason/justification to overcome the natural aversion to hurting another person, then the act would never have occurred. Sometimes, there is nothing to overcome; the perpetrator is simply mentally ill and lacks empathy. But when someone who isn’t mentally ill is the perpetrator, then there had to be some r/j before the act. And, of course, after the act.
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2nd December 2017, 11:33 AM | #163 |
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Oh boy, oh boy, I don't know how to get this through to you. I've tried, and Roboramma has tried: And now I try again: The sociopath doesn't need any "reason/justification to overcome the natural aversion to hurting another person", because he hasn't got any aversion, natural or artificial. He actually enjoys it so much more. And, yes, that's makes him a sexual predator, a sociopath, somebody who 'suffers from' a mental disorder (a very specific one!), but he's not the one who does the actual suffering in the case of this very particular disorder. His victims are! When somebody who is not a sociopath - and please stop using the term "mentally ill" because most of the other categories of mental illness would do no such thing - we are probably dealing with a person who is so retarded that he is unable to read and understand the signals of a distressed woman. And that also doesn't seem to be the case with any of the celebrities who have been mentioned so far. Yes, those are among the things that they have learned, and only some of the researchers thought that “few generalizations could be made.” The rest were busy categorizing. All of this is mentioned in the article, and you might notice this yourself if you stopped cherry picking. One important thing is the one I've already mentioned: They actually do know that they are forcing unconsenting women to have sex! They are fully aware of the fact that they are. They just don't like the word rape! (Probably because they know that this word is connected with repercussions for themselves!) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 12:39 PM | #164 |
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Indeed. I said exactly that. I go further and point out that sociopathy is only part of the story for some perpetrators.
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A first step for you is to grok that “sociopath,” and “mentally ill” are the same thing in that sociopathy -what psychiatry labels as Anti-social Personality Disorder these days- is a mental illness. Even if you don’t agree with that basic psychology, your world view is apparently complete: Rapists are sociopaths and so they don’t care about other people. I think this view is naive and simplistic; however, it seems to me like you already have your answer. Coupled with your rejection of other, more nuanced, viewpoints... I am not sure why you asked the OP question.
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2nd December 2017, 01:03 PM | #165 |
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You sum up the article in the following way:
You are being very disingenuous again. The article doesn't note that “few generalizations could be made.” Instead it mentions that one (!) guy, Dr. Smithyman, "concluded that few generalizations could be made." And only six lines later, the article tells us:
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Not exactly the same thing, is it?! How do you rationalize that?! You also claim that "What they have learned doesn’t really touch on “what makes people want,”to rape as much as it does, what are some commonalities in experience that might predispose one to rape." Well, how do you account for this, then?
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I can't quote the whole article so I recommend that everybody following this thread reads it themselves. It isn't very long. I'll end with this quotation for those of you who proclaim that understanding what goes on in the mind of a rapist is not only impossible, but also irrelevant:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 01:08 PM | #166 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 01:16 PM | #167 |
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2nd December 2017, 02:07 PM | #168 |
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I have left out most of the bits that either xjx388 or I myself have already mentioned or quoted:
Unlike what you said, the article didn't note that “few generalizations could be made.” Instead, after mentioning that one single researcher thought so, it went on to say that "more recent research suggests that there are some commonalities. In the decades since his paper, scientists have been gradually filling out a picture of men who commit sexual assaults." So generalizations can be made, the idea that some people in this thread have advocated is wrong: Rapists actually do have certain things in common! "patterns have emerged: these men begin early, studies find. They may associate with others who also commit sexual violence. They usually deny that they have raped women even as they admit to nonconsensual sex. (And these things that they have in common are things that make them different from ordinary guys (something that ought be obvious to everybody: ordinary guys don't rape!).) These guys know that they rape. Like I said above: They just don't like to hear or say the word! "The focus of most sexual aggression research is acknowledged (!) nonconsensual (!) sexual behavior." After having delved into the psychology of the sex offender (see my quotations in earlier posts), the article finally deals with "risk factors": "Heavy drinking, perceived pressure to have sex, a belief in “rape myths” — such as the idea that no means yes", using hostile language to describe women, being aroused by rape porn, and narcissism (mentioned a couple of times). And an important counteracting factor is, no surprise there, empathy! Another important thing they have in common: "they do not believe they are the problem." And since they enjoy nonconsensual sex and are fine with it: Why would they? The only problem they see is probably their own incarceration. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 02:14 PM | #169 |
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2nd December 2017, 02:44 PM | #170 |
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That Cosby and Weinstein don't belong in that category. What does that tell you?
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That you completely miss the point no matter how many times I've tried to explain it to you: They admit to the concept of rape, i.e. non-consensual sex (even to the point of: "Asked “if they had penetrated against their consent,” said Dr. Koss, the subject will say yes. Asked if he did “something (!) like (!) rape,” the answer is almost always no."). I.e. they just don't admit to the word. What does that tell you?
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That some people are aroused by rape porn. What the article tells us is that being highly aroused by rape porn is one of the risk factors - in particular in people who lack empathy:
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What does that tell you? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 02:52 PM | #171 |
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What all that tells me is that there are people who do not lack empathy who rape. That there are people who know they lack consent from their victim but find ways in their minds to make it “not rape.” You see, a sociopath doesn’t care about hurting his victims and doesn’t need to find ways in their minds to make it not rape. |
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2nd December 2017, 03:10 PM | #172 |
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They don't "make it "not rape."" Lacking consent from your victim, penetrating against your victim's consent, is the definition of rape:
"According to the law, rape occurs when one person penetrates another with their penis without the consent of the person being penetrated." Ask any lawyer! These guys don't care about hurting their victims, they just don't want to go to jail, and they know that this is what happens if you are a condemned rapist! You appear to be in as much denial about this concept as the rapists! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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2nd December 2017, 06:54 PM | #173 |
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Oh, but they did...in their own heads.
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3rd December 2017, 01:51 AM | #174 | |||
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No, they didn't and they don't. They know very well that they what they're doing is rape, but they did't want to use the word rape. From the article in the New York Times, the one you thought proved your point:
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And let me (again) give you the one, unequivocal definition that everybody agrees on because it's not statutory, it's not one thing in one state and another one in a different state, this is what constitutes rape everywhere: "According to the law, rape occurs when one person penetrates another with their penis without the consent of the person being penetrated." So these guys know, "in their own heads" and unequivocally, that this is what they're doing! They just don't want to use the right word for it:
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So what else are you in denial about?
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Absolutely nothing is incomplete about the definition of rape I presented you with. The only thing that's woeful is your denial of the fact. On the one hand, you are aware of this, but on the other hand, you are hellbent on rationalizing in order to make it seem as if these confirmed rapists don't know what they're doing, merely because they won't accept the use of the one word that the rest of the world knows is the proper one to describe their crime.
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No, that's not what the article says! This is what the article says:
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So the group of people that the article talks about aren't rapists. It talks about "Men who are highly aroused by rape porn," which is a "risk factor" of becoming a rapist, but if you are a highly empathic human being it is very unlikely that you will turn into a rapist from watching rape porn. But if you don't have empathy, it's much more likely that it will. Please notice that this also is not about repeat offenders, which you seem to think: "less likely to rape again." It doesn't describe a group of rapists; it describes a group of rape-porn watchers, most of which (the ones with empathy and compassion) will probably never rape anybody! But you continue, based on your completely wrong assumption:
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As you can see, you got it completely wrong: those rapists, your imaginary rapists with empathy, weren't and aren't rapists. They watch rape porn, but they don't rape, they don't hurt others, so they also don't have to come up with rationalizations for the rape that they don't commit!
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I think that I've now made it clear to the rest of the world that you are the one who is adamant about misunderstanding this question. The only thing you've managed is to present us with your own striking example of rationalization and denial.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd December 2017, 08:50 AM | #175 |
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It seems quite obvious to me that, while you may have read the article, you are only getting out of it what you want. You may have read the words of my arguments but you don’t seem to get what I’m saying. Your representations of my arguments here are straw men. I’ll simply respond with two quotes from the article: “Antonia Abbey, a social psychologist at Wayne State University, has found that young men who expressed remorse were less likely to offend the following year, while those who blamed their victim were more likely to do it again.” “Most subjects in these studies freely acknowledge nonconsensual sex — but that does not mean they consider it real rape. Researchers encounter this contradiction again and again.” But you know, again, you already have your answer, naive and simplistic as it may be. |
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3rd December 2017, 09:42 AM | #176 |
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The only thing that's simplistic is your interpretation of the article. Probably because you have a problem with the word "contradiction" not unlike the problems that rapists have with the word rape:
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The rapists "freely acknowledge nonconsensual sex", i.e. having sex with women who don't want to have sex with them, forcing their victims to have sex, the definition of rape. There is no sensible way of interpreting this as if they don't know what they are doing, as if they pity, empathize with or feel compassion for their victims. They just don't like the connotations of the word rape = an atrocious disregard for other people's feelings and well-being, something that you are punished for. They are absolutely fine with raping but they're just too sensitive to use the correct word for the crime. That is their one and only concern. It hurts their vanity (cf. narcissism) and has nothing at all to do with empathy. Contradiction solved! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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3rd December 2017, 09:48 PM | #177 |
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Yes. This is what the article says.
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3rd December 2017, 11:25 PM | #178 |
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Having mentioned Dr. Malamud’s findings that men who watch rape porn
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It’s also interesting that in spite of the sensitivity of rapists to the word rape:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 11:12 AM | #179 |
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An exercise for you.
There must be something you really like, really enjoy, you might even be willing to spend money on it. It could be anything, food or drink, a hobby or a sport or some or other game, music, sex or just an idea, whatever. Now realize you are part of the bell curve, there are probably people, lots of them, out there who are even MORE enthusiastic, much more (some are even fanatical) than you, about their THING. Some things you might find totally arbitrary might be very important to someone else, tastes differ. Now to evolution, self preservation and procreation are the two most important drives in all animals. That explains the HUGE income generated by the sex trade and porn industry, in general people are obsessed with sex. We are also supremely social animals and status and 'power' are very important and directly related to reproductive success. Being the Boss or having power over people did a great deal for the number of offspring produced during our evolutionary history. Evolution also does not care about the means, just about the end result, offspring. It might make you just LOVE babies, or it might make you fall head over heels in love, or it might make you really crave sex or give you mind blowing orgasms, bell curve. No wonder some people are obsessed with sex and power and dominance, its just the bell curve. Empathy as well, not something some have and some don't, bell curve. Now imagine if your THING involves sex and power and dominance and it is (maybe only sometimes) stronger than your empathy. You might do things you later regret and are honestly sorry about. Does not mean you might not do it again, but you could really be sorry, happens all the time. |
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4th December 2017, 11:34 AM | #180 |
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You seem to have missed the entire discussion and in particular what the NYT article discussed on this page tells us about rape and narcissism. See my post above yours.
Does it seem to you as if the Weinsteins or the Cosbys "are honestly sorry about" anything? The point seems to be that if your alleged "THING" involving "power and dominance" is so much "stronger than your empathy," it's probably because you never had much of the latter in the first place. Evoluton doesn't explain rape. See difference between chimps and bonobos. Bonobos and empathy. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 12:29 PM | #181 |
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I don't think anyone has missed anything, other people just see things differently than you do.
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When a rapist is convicted and sent to prison, you often hear people say, "I hope they get raped in prison to teach them a lesson." In the thread about the neo-Nazi who was profiled in the NYT, many posters have no problem expressing support for violence against neo-Nazis. Is this a sign of sociopathy? I don't think so. This mechanism, whereby we rationalize/justify violence against others in a way that allows us to overcome our innate empathy towards our fellow man is a natural human response. Of course, some people -psychiatry diagnoses them as having a personality disorder or other mental illness- have little to no innate empathy for anybody.
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4th December 2017, 01:22 PM | #182 |
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Let me just add this: Your arguments here sound a little like as if I had posted the following:
"Can someone explain what makes people want to kill other people? Killing people is murder! There is no reasonable way for a person who murdered another person to rationalize or justify their way out of a murder. So I don't understand it. Help me figure out what exactly makes someone want to murder." You would be quite right to point out that such a view point is naive and simplistic. Yes, we all agree murder is wrong. Some people who murder are indeed flat out crazy. But this does not explain all murder. Some otherwise normal people do indeed find a way to rationalize/justify murder: religion, greed, passion, jealousy, perceived threat. That only makes them less wrong in their own eyes, not in the eyes of the law or in most other people. |
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4th December 2017, 01:38 PM | #183 |
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dann, if you will tell me why you enjoy sex at all, I will tell you why some people enjoy sex with unwilling partners.
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4th December 2017, 01:49 PM | #184 | |||
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They didn't rape someone! Why do you seem to pretend that they aren't repeat offenders? Do you see any signs at all that they are sorry about anything other than being found out?
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I'm sorry, but even though I'm trying to be as empathic as I can right now, I just don't see how you get to "the average person." Nobody has claimed that "the average person has a general lack of empathy." The NYT article points out the general lack of empathy in rapists - and it seems to be even more lacking in repeat offenders. Empathy is what seems to protect even rape porn consumers from becoming rapists.
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I'm not one of them, and I don't think that it would teach them empathy. It would probably only inspire them, teach them new techniques to be used when they (hopefully never) are in control again.
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Neither do I, and I've pointed out a couple of times that if there are enough AntiFas, the Nazis can be defeated without the use of violence. They take off their polos and run home to mom, and the AntiFas let them!
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Exactly! Rapists, for instance! But what has that got to do with Nazi bashing? You seem to have invented a new variation of your argument about people's feelings when somebody hurts (for instance rapes) a member of their family. I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance of this idea at all, unless you're saying that sexual predators rape their victims to punish them for being Nazis. Punishment seems to enter into the story of some rapist, but that story is very different:
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I suppose that Dr. Malamuth has a reason for his suspicion and will do more research into it, but your attempts at creating the image of the compassionate rapist is just as far out and contrived as the many movies and TV series about compassionate serial killers who only kill bad guys!
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 01:57 PM | #185 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 02:13 PM | #186 |
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Yes, you would think so, wouldn't you? But what I'm actually going to point out is that in the majority of cases the purpose of murder isn't the act itself. The murderer may want to get rid of somebody for any number of reasons, but except for the (relatively) rare serial killer the point isn't usually to enjoy the activity, the process of killing, and unlike the act of sexual intercourse where most people exhibit empathy and want to achieve mutual satisfaction that is not the case when the murderers go about it. But I guess that's a subtle difference that never occurred to you ... So this is just another one of your usual strawman arguments, contrived as always. All this wasted effort just to be able to cling to your chimera: the compassionate, repenting rapist, tormented by guilt, who just has to resort to rationalization to be able to live with himself. But that's not the rapist that we meet in the NYT article! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 02:59 PM | #187 |
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What a pointless quibble. A person who has raped someone may have indeed raped many someones. That distinction is not at all relevant to the point I'm making.
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4th December 2017, 03:58 PM | #188 |
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No, probably not, but it's relevant to the point I'm making.
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Good! So you don't "see any signs at all that they are sorry about anything other than being found out". But still, I'm the one who is in the wrong. You're like the guy with the invisible unicorn in his garage! Give us proof that your chimera exists, that the world is full of compassionate rapists - on whatever "level"! I've heard of compassionate conservatives, but rapists? No, never. (And as for the former: I've heard of them, never met one.)
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No need to go back. It may not stop all those lacking in empathy, it only stops the ones who've got enough - and aren't too stupid or misled to see that the women they're having sex with are unwilling, nonconsensual victims of rape. No, surprise there, really. It's what the article says.
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No, we've been through that several times already: People who lack empathy for people who rape members of their family and people who don't empathize with advocates of ethnic cleansing probably aren't mentally ill. (And you couldn't blame them for being depressed if they were!)
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You won't tell us because the whole stupid exercise is to come up with your imaginary conclusion that:
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And what a wonderful paper it is: "histories of antisocial behavior that included other types of violence", the typical symptoms of sociopathy, but "Major mental illness was rare," and the child molesters usually weren't psychotic. So thank you for proving my point again! Rapists are typically narcissists or sociopaths, not schizophrenics or mentally ill in any other way!
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And could you please post a link to the post where I wrote that "all rapists are mentally ill"?! Your strawman doesn't get any better because you repeat it. That would be a nice touch, now that you are accusing me of strawman arguments. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 04:27 PM | #189 |
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PS
Let me help you with this one! The NYT article already told us:
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That appears to be the crime that the rape victims are punished for: sexually arousing the rapists and rejecting the future rapists back in high school! And now compare it to your favorite scenario of Nazi punchers and temporarily non-empathic relatives of rape victims. There isn't really any comparison, is there?! |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th December 2017, 11:01 PM | #190 |
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Which is what, exactly? I said that the mere fact that they raped someone (even multiple someones) is not enough to draw a conclusion about their mental state or level of empathy. Quibbling over the word "someone" is pointless.
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But that's only part of the story and it can't explain all rape. I assume that's why you asked your OP question, but I'm beginning to wonder.
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What makes some people want to have sex with unwilling partners? Sociopathy. Not very descriptive and way too simplistic -not to mention a misuse of the plain meaning of the word.
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You see where you use the word "sociopathy?" Sociopathy (see that -pathy at the end? That should be a clue.) is what psychiatrists now call Anti-Social Personality Disorder, which is indeed a major mental illness. You are apparently using it to mean something other than APD or mental illness, which is an incorrect usage of the word. I just assumed that when you use that word, you understand what you are saying. So it's not a strawman on my part; it's non-standard usage on your part. |
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6th December 2017, 06:41 AM | #191 |
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Somehow I can't find any trace of empathic rapists in these stories.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th December 2017, 08:42 AM | #192 |
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6th December 2017, 09:11 AM | #193 |
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Yes. Does the popularity of the magazine have anything to do with that?
I would love to see the magazine round up all the perpetrators and make and in-depth interview with them. But maybe we can expect to see them interviewed by the the researchers mentioned in the NYT article, but then they'll probably be anonymized … |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th December 2017, 09:20 AM | #194 |
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Time is not a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal. While it's a great story that shines a light on a heretofore hidden problem, we shouldn't expect to gain any real insight on anything.
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6th December 2017, 09:46 AM | #195 |
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Dann,
What exactly do you want to hear? There is no single 'magic bullet' cause for rape and sexual assault. Some people lack empathy, some people receive sexual satisfaction from the act of force, some live in macro or micro societies that don't place as much of a standard on sexual consent. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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6th December 2017, 09:49 AM | #196 |
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So we are back to that one again, are we? Yes, we will have different answers from each individual rapist, which is kind of the idea when you interview people, but some of these answers will be very similar, which is what makes it possible to categorize them based on their answers. That is how the researchers mentioned in the NYT article (also not a "scholarly peer reviewed journal," by the way) did it, and that is how they discovered that typical rapists, and in particular those rapists who are repeat offenders, lack empathy. It gives you a lot of insight into the phenomenon of sexual coercion to get the victims' point of view. Time couldn't have made a better choice of Person(s) of the Year. I actually think that you might enjoy reading the interviews with rapists in the "popular outlets" that you mention. It is true that they "could probably just be telling us what they think we want to hear," because that is what narcissists and sociopaths do, but that is also what might make them seem to have the empathy that you've been hypothesizing. You know, empathic guys who just fell victim of "situational callousness" … again and again. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th December 2017, 12:56 PM | #197 |
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6th December 2017, 04:28 PM | #198 |
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As long as you understand that such "categories" are artificial and incomplete. Each rapist is, basically a category unto themselves.
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7th December 2017, 01:38 AM | #199 |
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I can definitely see how women can be coerced into sex, however I have to suspect a large number of these women coming out also just feel disappointed or generally disgusted of their affair when they were young and seek to bring down the man when he's in power.
I've often compared this to my being bullied constantly when I was in middle school. People underestimate the kind of psychological damage that can do to someone, particularly a child just about entering puberty. Now I know where my former bullies live and you have to ask: Is it worth it to break the news anymore? Is it worth it to dish some kind of long-arm revenge after all these years? Course I don't want them to lose their jobs that they're supporting their families with. I don't see the point in making old ass men who bullied or coerced decades ago when they were young lose their jobs and lives now. |
7th December 2017, 12:50 PM | #200 |
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There is ample reason to assume that some women will take advantage of the situation, but false rape accusations are not without consequences for the accuser - if they're found out. And it's up to the judicial system to find out, not us.
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I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know what you might expect to get out of "some kind of long-arm revenge": Hurting them back? Or would you just like them to acknowledge what they did to you and apologize?
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An awful thing about bullying apart from the bullying itself is the long-term effect: Bullies Grow Up To Be Healthier Than Their Victims, New Research Shows (Huffington, May 14, 2014) And sometimes bullies don't change much. Sometimes they grow up to become work-place bullies or bullying husbands and fathers. You're right, of course, in thinking of their families, but you might have a higher degree of empathy for the members of their family than the former (?) bullies do themselves. I wouldn't worry too much about a sociopath losing his job or his family. Both colleagues and family might be better off without him (or her). On the other hand, if they seem to have stopped bullying, it would seem futile to hurt them now. I think the best course of action for you would be to discuss it with a reliable therapist: What will help you heal? What will give you closure? To engage in fighting the bullying that is happening right now might also bring some relief. You can't undo the bullying that you were exposed to, but maybe you can help stop the present-day bullies. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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