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Old 3rd April 2018, 04:14 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Being Reasoned Out Of Religion.

A common belief of some atheists is you cannot reason someone out of something, (religious belief) they were not reasoned into.

The following video is a very thorough debunking of the authenticity of "The Book of Abraham" written by Joseph Smith, who supposedly translated some ancient Egyptian scrolls to write the book. The video suggests Mormonism is collapsing as a result of these findings and showed interviews with some ex-Mormons at the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI


The implication is clear the evidence points to the falsity of Smith's prophet-ness and Mormons are voting with their feet - having been reasoned out of their belief.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 04:18 PM   #2
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Yeah, the common belief is sometimes wrong. Obviously, some people can be reasoned out of believing wrong things, eventually, at least.

Other people just stick with whatever belief for forever, no matter what, though.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 04:22 PM   #3
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I think it's just more "Reasoning people out of things they didn't reason themselves into doesn't have a very good success rate."
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Old 3rd April 2018, 04:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think it's just more "Reasoning people out of things they didn't reason themselves into doesn't have a very good success rate."

I suspect you are right and in trying to research the rates of defection from the Mormon Church, I see mass resignations happening, but more for reasons like anti LGBT policy, than doubt of authenticity of scripture.
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Old 3rd April 2018, 06:24 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A common belief of some atheists is you cannot reason someone out of something, (religious belief) they were not reasoned into.

The following video is a very thorough debunking of the authenticity of "The Book of Abraham" written by Joseph Smith, who supposedly translated some ancient Egyptian scrolls to write the book. The video suggests Mormonism is collapsing as a result of these findings and showed interviews with some ex-Mormons at the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI


The implication is clear the evidence points to the falsity of Smith's prophet-ness and Mormons are voting with their feet - having been reasoned out of their belief.
I so hope that is true!!!!!
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Old 3rd April 2018, 06:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I suspect you are right and in trying to research the rates of defection from the Mormon Church, I see mass resignations happening,

The Mormon Church has always seen mass exile. All orthodox religions have.

People move from orthodoxy, to religious, to vaguely spiritual to secular. Orthodox Judaism loses members as does Catholicism and everything else. It doesn't mean that the actual religion is on the decline. Births and conversions more than make up the difference. Mormonism is still growing (though at a slower rate than previously).

Frankly, outside attacks probably strengthen people's resolve.
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Old 4th April 2018, 03:33 AM   #7
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You might be able to reason someone out of their church, but its not so easy reasoning them out of their faith. I'll bet most; perhaps all, of those Mormons leaving their Church will still believe in God.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:37 AM   #8
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Haven't all of us who haven't been born in atheist families, all of us who've started out as theists and are now no longer so, basically reasoned our ways out of religion?

Ultimately no one can do this but we ourselves, it's an essentially personal process ; but sure, others can, to an extent, help us frame some of the arguments and some of the reasons, why not?
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Old 4th April 2018, 01:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I so hope that is true!!!!!
I suspect it is not unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
The Mormon Church has always seen mass exile. All orthodox religions have.

People move from orthodoxy, to religious, to vaguely spiritual to secular. Orthodox Judaism loses members as does Catholicism and everything else. It doesn't mean that the actual religion is on the decline. Births and conversions more than make up the difference. Mormonism is still growing (though at a slower rate than previously).

Frankly, outside attacks probably strengthen people's resolve.
I think you may mean exodus but I also think you are correct to some degree about the lack of dramatic decline in religion worldwide. We have dramatic decline in Europe but this is offset by growth in developing countries.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You might be able to reason someone out of their church, but its not so easy reasoning them out of their faith. I'll bet most; perhaps all, of those Mormons leaving their Church will still believe in God.
Well a couple in the video did say they became atheists but others did not.

Non the less I suspect the publicising of this kind of material, does not sound the death knell for religions generally. Compelling as the evidence may be to us on the outside, the faithful have the remarkable ability to believe what they want to believe, and be instructed by the churches hierarchy about truth. In the video, some of the Mormon Church leaders gave explanations about the lack of consistency, between the real meaning of the scroll writings and the interpretations by Smith. It really is head spinning stuff, but the faithful would no doubt just lap it up, because it's what they want to believe.
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Old 4th April 2018, 02:26 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Haven't all of us who haven't been born in atheist families, all of us who've started out as theists and are now no longer so, basically reasoned our ways out of religion?

Ultimately no one can do this but we ourselves, it's an essentially personal process ; but sure, others can, to an extent, help us frame some of the arguments and some of the reasons, why not?
I wonder about this.

A thread started by ynot, asking the question if your atheism was the result of a theism fail or a science win, indicated the former as most common from my observation. A science win almost certainly could be interpreted as a reasoned result, but then a theism fail may be also, because the lack of logic and consistency in theistic doctrine. Perhaps there is another reason however ... just lack of interest.
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Old 4th April 2018, 02:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I wonder about this.

A thread started by ynot, asking the question if your atheism was the result of a theism fail or a science win, indicated the former as most common from my observation. A science win almost certainly could be interpreted as a reasoned result, but then a theism fail may be also, because the lack of logic and consistency in theistic doctrine. Perhaps there is another reason however ... just lack of interest any evidence for the actual existence of any god.
FTFY
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Old 4th April 2018, 03:58 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
FTFY

Thanks for the fix ynot.

Perhaps a little elaboration is needed here.

The skeptical atheists on this forum are not typical, (may I suggest), of the average non believer, who make up the largest religious/non religious group in my country, Australia, today. I observe most here have strong resentment about religious intrusion and influence in our societies. From my observations the bulk of non believers I am surrounded with do not ... they are indifferent.

I think the reason for this indifference is ignorance. Many have just drifted out of religion because, well just because, that is the way things are with those around them. These folk haven't looked at Biblical scripture and seen the lack of consistency and logic and reasoned their way out. They haven't seen the injustice encouraged by scripture either, and most likely don't make the connection, between for example persecution of gays, and religious influence.
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Old 4th April 2018, 05:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The skeptical atheists on this forum are not typical, (may I suggest), of the average non believer, who make up the largest religious/non religious group in my country, Australia, today. I observe most here have strong resentment about religious intrusion and influence in our societies. From my observations the bulk of non believers I am surrounded with do not ... they are indifferent.
As an Australian myself, I'd say that is also true of most people who would call themselves "believers": they are also indifferent to religion. If they believe in God, they try not to let it interrupt their day.

In fact, I'd say that for all of human history, 90% or more of people have not really given a thought about religion. I know that there is this idea that everyone in the past were fundamentalists, and that gradually the Enlightenment has eroded fundamentalism so that people have become more liberal, but I'd suggest that most people have always been liberal about their beliefs, and the Enlightenment has been making more people fundamentalist.

There have been times in the past where the right kind of religious beliefs have been important, but those were times when heresy was as much or more to do with politics as with religion.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think the reason for this indifference is ignorance. Many have just drifted out of religion because, well just because, that is the way things are with those around them. These folk haven't looked at Biblical scripture and seen the lack of consistency and logic and reasoned their way out. They haven't seen the injustice encouraged by scripture either, and most likely don't make the connection, between for example persecution of gays, and religious influence.
Yeah, but... How many Australians have you met personally who really care about what is in the Bible? How many people that call themselves Christians that you know personally care whether the Bible is correct, or accurate, or consistent? Very few is my guess. Most would look to the Bible for inspiration rather than history, like they would towards Oprah.

I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians.

I can't speak for Americans and Brits, but for Australians there is a strange 'conversion' affect that goes on on atheist boards, whereby their beliefs about what constitutes 'true' Christianity becomes defined around the literal truth of the Bible, despite them themselves formerly calling themselves Christians and not caring how 'true' the Bible was in a historical or even factual sense.

Last edited by GDon; 4th April 2018 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 4th April 2018, 05:56 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for the fix ynot.

Perhaps a little elaboration is needed here.

The skeptical atheists on this forum are not typical, (may I suggest), of the average non believer, who make up the largest religious/non religious group in my country, Australia, today. I observe most here have strong resentment about religious intrusion and influence in our societies. From my observations the bulk of non believers I am surrounded with do not ... they are indifferent.

I think the reason for this indifference is ignorance. Many have just drifted out of religion because, well just because, that is the way things are with those around them. These folk haven't looked at Biblical scripture and seen the lack of consistency and logic and reasoned their way out. They haven't seen the injustice encouraged by scripture either, and most likely don't make the connection, between for example persecution of gays, and religious influence.
Or perhaps the glaringly obvious complete lack of any credible evidence supporting the existence of an actual god is enough for them to reject the whole god concept without the need of further consideration. Who cares what scriptures and theists say if there’s no evidence their god even exists? All religions completely fail at the first hurdle.
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
As an Australian myself, I'd say that is also true of most people who would call themselves "believers": they are also indifferent to religion. If they believe in God, they try not to let it interrupt their day.

In fact, I'd say that for all of human history, 90% or more of people have not really given a thought about religion. I know that there is this idea that everyone in the past were fundamentalists, and that gradually the Enlightenment has eroded fundamentalism so that people have become more liberal, but I'd suggest that most people have always been liberal about their beliefs, and the Enlightenment has been making more people fundamentalist.

There have been times in the past where the right kind of religious beliefs have been important, but those were times when heresy was as much or more to do with politics as with religion.


Yeah, but... How many Australians have you met personally who really care about what is in the Bible? How many people that call themselves Christians that you know personally care whether the Bible is correct, or accurate, or consistent? Very few is my guess. Most would look to the Bible for inspiration rather than history, like they would towards Oprah.

I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians.

I can't speak for Americans and Brits, but for Australians there is a strange 'conversion' affect that goes on on atheist boards, whereby their beliefs about what constitutes 'true' Christianity becomes defined around the literal truth of the Bible, despite them themselves formerly calling themselves Christians and not caring how 'true' the Bible was in a historical or even factual sense.
I agree. But don't you have that back-to-front?
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:16 PM   #16
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I'm in the process of reasoning my best friend out. He's certainly getting there and he's been open minded enough to concede many points already. He is starting to parrot me when he lectures others about science and how it's the best system to solve problems and etc. Now he's about where I want him; hanging onto arguments from ignorance and raw hope that God does save everyone----somehow.

He often forgets stuff I tell him though, and then I have to walk him back into a corner all over again. So any progress to be made beyond this point depends on my skill as a translator and his long-term memory.

Funny thing is he questioned the existence of god(s) long before I did. The tipping point for me was in late 2011, after hearing Sam Harris' monologue about theodicy in his debate with William Lane Craig.

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Old 4th April 2018, 06:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm in the process of reasoning my best friend out. He's certainly getting there and he's been open minded enough to concede many points already. He is starting to parrot me when he lectures others about science and how it's the best system to solve problems and etc. Now he's about where I want him; hanging onto arguments from ignorance and raw hope that God does save everyone----somehow.

He often forgets stuff I tell him though, and then I have to walk him back into a corner all over again. So any progress to be made beyond this point depends on my skill as a translator and his long-term memory.

Funny thing is he questioned the existence of god(s) long before I did. The tipping point for me was in late 2011, after hearing Sam Harris' monologue about theodicy in his debate with William Lane Craig.
It's not just theism debates that are like that. I have a rule of 3 in my mind based on personal experience, where I've noticed that it usually takes having the same debate 3 times before one side finally, actually incorporates the new info/perspective into their worldview. I've even noticed it being true for myself. Like, the first couple of times I lose a debate, it just doesn't necessarily stick. Weird stuff.
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:24 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm in the process of reasoning my best friend out. He's certainly getting there and he's been open minded enough to concede many points already. He is starting to parrot me when he lectures others about science and how it's the best system to solve problems and etc. Now he's about where I want him; hanging onto arguments from ignorance and raw hope that God does save everyone----somehow.

He often forgets stuff I tell him though, and then I have to walk him back into a corner all over again. So any progress to be made beyond this point depends on my skill as a translator and his long-term memory.

Funny thing is he questioned the existence of god(s) long before I did. The tipping point for me was in late 2011, after hearing Sam Harris' monologue about theodicy in his debate with William Lane Craig.
Why not just keep it simple? Why reason the obvious stupidity and impossibility of flying, fire breathing dragons when there’s no credible evidence such creatures even exist to begin with?
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:28 PM   #19
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Monopoly card for theists . . .

Go directly to evidence
(or)
Do not pass Go
(otherwise)
Do not collect credibility.
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Monopoly card for theists . . .

Go directly to evidence
(or)
Do not pass Go
(otherwise)
Do not collect credibility.
"Credibility" is not their motivation.

If only the world was that simple.
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
"Credibility" is not their motivation.

If only the world was that simple.
Written from the perspective of an atheist giving them credibility.
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Written from the perspective of an atheist giving them credibility.
Huh?

Can you elaborate?
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Huh?

Can you elaborate?
Do not collect credibility (from atheists).
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Old 4th April 2018, 06:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Do not collect credibility (from atheists).
Are you advocating not even debating religion with theists, even your own best friend, if they don't provide proof of deities right off the bat?

Just, like, yell "NOT CREDIBLE!" at them and walk away?
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Are you advocating not even debating religion with theists, even your own best friend, if they don't provide proof of deities right off the bat?

Just, like, yell "NOT CREDIBLE!" at them and walk away?
Yes (but not quite the way you describe).

If you had a best friend that believed in flying, fire breathing dragons would you need to say anything more than - "Dragons are scientifically impossible and there's absolutely no evidence they do exist even if they could exist". Would you debate the colour of dragons with your friend if (s)he claimed they were green with purple spots? Wouldn't you say - "Prove dragons exist first, then we might debate what colour they are".

Letting theists "Pass Go" and debating "as if" there might or could be a god (let's pretend) is only giving them oxygen for their belief and could give them a false impression that perhaps this atheist on some level believes in my god. Continuously debating The Bible gives it far more credibility than it deserves (IMO).

This is a relatively new tack for me and I think it's far more effective in practice with my theist friends (yes I have some) than the "old" method.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:22 PM   #26
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I have a friend who believes in chemtrails and flirted with flat-eartherism for a minute. So yes, I'm willing to try to talk a friend out of believing all kinds of crazy stuff, and it doesn't involve "giving them credibility".
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Letting theists "Pass Go" and debating "as if" there might or could be a god (let's pretend) is only giving them oxygen for their belief
They are always debating as if it's true. Getting them to articulate how the world would be different if there was not a god is the interesting part. I actually have had success going that route with them.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I have a friend who believes in chemtrails and flirted with flat-eartherism for a minute. So yes, I'm willing to try to talk a friend out of believing all kinds of crazy stuff, and it doesn't involve "giving them credibility".
Hardly the same thing debating things that actually exist (contrails, Earth) and things that there is no evidence actually exist.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Hardly the same thing debating things that actually exist (contrails, Earth) and things that there is no evidence actually exist.
Belief in chemtrails entails believing all sorts of things which aren't real, like a massive global conspiracy, just for starters.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:36 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They are always debating as if it's true.
Of course, but why should atheists do that? ?

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Getting them to articulate how the world would be different if there was not a god is the interesting part. I actually have had success going that route with them.
I'm not saying the "old" method is totally ineffective. I'm saying I think the "Don't pass Go' method may be more effective. It may not be as "interesting" however.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post

I'm saying I think the "Don't pass Go' method may be more effective.
It's just not talking about religion, period. LOL
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Belief in chemtrails entails believing all sorts of things which aren't real, like a massive global conspiracy, just for starters.
Not true. Although highly unlikely, massive global conspiracies are technically possible. Infinitely more so than the actual existence of an invisible, magical god.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:49 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's just not talking about religion, period. LOL
Talking about the existence or non-existence of a god is exactly talking about religion. No god = no religion to talk about.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:51 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Not true. Although highly unlikely, massive global conspiracies are technically possible. Infinitely more so than the actual existence of an invisible, magical god.
The conspiracy would necessarily involve global elites having filtered oxygen in their homes, too, supposedly in buried giant tanks.

You haven't spent much time with the chemtrail crowd, have you?
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Talking about the existence or non-existence of a god is exactly talking about religion. No god = no religion to talk about.
The talking is person a saying "proof?" and person b not having it, the end.

This is not going to prove effective.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The conspiracy would necessarily involve global elites having filtered oxygen in their homes, too, supposedly in buried giant tanks.
So? Still not absolutely impossible.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You haven't spent much time with the chemtrail crowd, have you?
Wrong again! I have spent very much time debating with "the chemtrail crowd".

I'm only advocating the "Do not pass Go" method for religions, not chemtrailers or flatearthers because they get to start past "Go" given contrails and Earth are known to exist by way of credible evidence. Can you not see the difference?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
So? Still not absolutely impossible
The "god of the gaps" isn't completely impossible, either. Or some trickster deity who just wants us to think it doesn't exist, etc.

Contrails exist, and chemtrails don't. There's no evidence that chemtrails exist. The "evidence" that they do is bunk or mere speculation, just like the "evidence" supporting belief in deities.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The talking is person a saying "proof?" and person b not having it, the end.

This is not going to prove effective.
Depends what you mean by effective. If you're looking for interesting and entertaining debates that rarely change anything then not as effective as the "old" method. But if you're looking to put the onus of a paranormal claim where it belongs, then I'm finding it quite effective.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Depends what you mean by effective. If you're looking for interesting and entertaining debates that rarely change anything then not as effective as the "old" method. But if you're looking to put the onus of a paranormal claim where it belongs, then I'm finding it quite effective.
Well, now I'm curious. How many people have you converted to atheism with this method?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:20 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The "god of the gaps" isn't completely impossible, either. Or some trickster deity who just wants us to think it doesn't exist, etc.

Contrails exist, and chemtrails don't. There's no evidence that chemtrails exist. The "evidence" that they do is bunk or mere speculation, just like the "evidence" supporting belief in deities.
The actual existence of an invisible, magical god is as impossible as anything is impossible according to all current knowledge. Wild speculations of future knowledge that may prove the existence of invisible magical gods is currently moot.
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