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3rd April 2018, 04:14 PM | #1 |
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Being Reasoned Out Of Religion.
A common belief of some atheists is you cannot reason someone out of something, (religious belief) they were not reasoned into.
The following video is a very thorough debunking of the authenticity of "The Book of Abraham" written by Joseph Smith, who supposedly translated some ancient Egyptian scrolls to write the book. The video suggests Mormonism is collapsing as a result of these findings and showed interviews with some ex-Mormons at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI The implication is clear the evidence points to the falsity of Smith's prophet-ness and Mormons are voting with their feet - having been reasoned out of their belief. |
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3rd April 2018, 04:18 PM | #2 |
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Yeah, the common belief is sometimes wrong. Obviously, some people can be reasoned out of believing wrong things, eventually, at least.
Other people just stick with whatever belief for forever, no matter what, though. |
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3rd April 2018, 04:22 PM | #3 |
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I think it's just more "Reasoning people out of things they didn't reason themselves into doesn't have a very good success rate."
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3rd April 2018, 04:57 PM | #4 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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3rd April 2018, 06:24 PM | #5 |
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3rd April 2018, 06:49 PM | #6 |
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The Mormon Church has always seen mass exile. All orthodox religions have. People move from orthodoxy, to religious, to vaguely spiritual to secular. Orthodox Judaism loses members as does Catholicism and everything else. It doesn't mean that the actual religion is on the decline. Births and conversions more than make up the difference. Mormonism is still growing (though at a slower rate than previously). Frankly, outside attacks probably strengthen people's resolve. |
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4th April 2018, 03:33 AM | #7 |
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You might be able to reason someone out of their church, but its not so easy reasoning them out of their faith. I'll bet most; perhaps all, of those Mormons leaving their Church will still believe in God.
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4th April 2018, 07:37 AM | #8 |
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Haven't all of us who haven't been born in atheist families, all of us who've started out as theists and are now no longer so, basically reasoned our ways out of religion?
Ultimately no one can do this but we ourselves, it's an essentially personal process ; but sure, others can, to an extent, help us frame some of the arguments and some of the reasons, why not? |
4th April 2018, 01:59 PM | #9 |
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I suspect it is not unfortunately.
I think you may mean exodus but I also think you are correct to some degree about the lack of dramatic decline in religion worldwide. We have dramatic decline in Europe but this is offset by growth in developing countries. Well a couple in the video did say they became atheists but others did not. Non the less I suspect the publicising of this kind of material, does not sound the death knell for religions generally. Compelling as the evidence may be to us on the outside, the faithful have the remarkable ability to believe what they want to believe, and be instructed by the churches hierarchy about truth. In the video, some of the Mormon Church leaders gave explanations about the lack of consistency, between the real meaning of the scroll writings and the interpretations by Smith. It really is head spinning stuff, but the faithful would no doubt just lap it up, because it's what they want to believe. |
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4th April 2018, 02:26 PM | #10 |
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I wonder about this.
A thread started by ynot, asking the question if your atheism was the result of a theism fail or a science win, indicated the former as most common from my observation. A science win almost certainly could be interpreted as a reasoned result, but then a theism fail may be also, because the lack of logic and consistency in theistic doctrine. Perhaps there is another reason however ... just lack of interest. |
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4th April 2018, 02:31 PM | #11 |
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4th April 2018, 03:58 PM | #12 |
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Thanks for the fix ynot. Perhaps a little elaboration is needed here. The skeptical atheists on this forum are not typical, (may I suggest), of the average non believer, who make up the largest religious/non religious group in my country, Australia, today. I observe most here have strong resentment about religious intrusion and influence in our societies. From my observations the bulk of non believers I am surrounded with do not ... they are indifferent. I think the reason for this indifference is ignorance. Many have just drifted out of religion because, well just because, that is the way things are with those around them. These folk haven't looked at Biblical scripture and seen the lack of consistency and logic and reasoned their way out. They haven't seen the injustice encouraged by scripture either, and most likely don't make the connection, between for example persecution of gays, and religious influence. |
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4th April 2018, 05:51 PM | #13 |
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As an Australian myself, I'd say that is also true of most people who would call themselves "believers": they are also indifferent to religion. If they believe in God, they try not to let it interrupt their day.
In fact, I'd say that for all of human history, 90% or more of people have not really given a thought about religion. I know that there is this idea that everyone in the past were fundamentalists, and that gradually the Enlightenment has eroded fundamentalism so that people have become more liberal, but I'd suggest that most people have always been liberal about their beliefs, and the Enlightenment has been making more people fundamentalist. There have been times in the past where the right kind of religious beliefs have been important, but those were times when heresy was as much or more to do with politics as with religion. Yeah, but... How many Australians have you met personally who really care about what is in the Bible? How many people that call themselves Christians that you know personally care whether the Bible is correct, or accurate, or consistent? Very few is my guess. Most would look to the Bible for inspiration rather than history, like they would towards Oprah. I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians. I can't speak for Americans and Brits, but for Australians there is a strange 'conversion' affect that goes on on atheist boards, whereby their beliefs about what constitutes 'true' Christianity becomes defined around the literal truth of the Bible, despite them themselves formerly calling themselves Christians and not caring how 'true' the Bible was in a historical or even factual sense. |
4th April 2018, 05:56 PM | #14 |
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Or perhaps the glaringly obvious complete lack of any credible evidence supporting the existence of an actual god is enough for them to reject the whole god concept without the need of further consideration. Who cares what scriptures and theists say if there’s no evidence their god even exists? All religions completely fail at the first hurdle.
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4th April 2018, 06:00 PM | #15 |
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4th April 2018, 06:16 PM | #16 |
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I'm in the process of reasoning my best friend out. He's certainly getting there and he's been open minded enough to concede many points already. He is starting to parrot me when he lectures others about science and how it's the best system to solve problems and etc. Now he's about where I want him; hanging onto arguments from ignorance and raw hope that God does save everyone----somehow.
He often forgets stuff I tell him though, and then I have to walk him back into a corner all over again. So any progress to be made beyond this point depends on my skill as a translator and his long-term memory. Funny thing is he questioned the existence of god(s) long before I did. The tipping point for me was in late 2011, after hearing Sam Harris' monologue about theodicy in his debate with William Lane Craig. |
4th April 2018, 06:22 PM | #17 |
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It's not just theism debates that are like that. I have a rule of 3 in my mind based on personal experience, where I've noticed that it usually takes having the same debate 3 times before one side finally, actually incorporates the new info/perspective into their worldview. I've even noticed it being true for myself. Like, the first couple of times I lose a debate, it just doesn't necessarily stick. Weird stuff.
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4th April 2018, 06:24 PM | #18 |
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4th April 2018, 06:28 PM | #19 |
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Monopoly card for theists . . .
Go directly to evidence (or) Do not pass Go (otherwise) Do not collect credibility. |
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4th April 2018, 06:34 PM | #20 |
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4th April 2018, 06:39 PM | #21 |
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4th April 2018, 06:41 PM | #22 |
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4th April 2018, 06:44 PM | #23 |
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4th April 2018, 06:46 PM | #24 |
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4th April 2018, 07:11 PM | #25 |
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Yes (but not quite the way you describe).
If you had a best friend that believed in flying, fire breathing dragons would you need to say anything more than - "Dragons are scientifically impossible and there's absolutely no evidence they do exist even if they could exist". Would you debate the colour of dragons with your friend if (s)he claimed they were green with purple spots? Wouldn't you say - "Prove dragons exist first, then we might debate what colour they are". Letting theists "Pass Go" and debating "as if" there might or could be a god (let's pretend) is only giving them oxygen for their belief and could give them a false impression that perhaps this atheist on some level believes in my god. Continuously debating The Bible gives it far more credibility than it deserves (IMO). This is a relatively new tack for me and I think it's far more effective in practice with my theist friends (yes I have some) than the "old" method. |
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4th April 2018, 07:22 PM | #26 |
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I have a friend who believes in chemtrails and flirted with flat-eartherism for a minute. So yes, I'm willing to try to talk a friend out of believing all kinds of crazy stuff, and it doesn't involve "giving them credibility".
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4th April 2018, 07:25 PM | #27 |
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Quote:
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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4th April 2018, 07:31 PM | #28 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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4th April 2018, 07:35 PM | #29 |
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4th April 2018, 07:36 PM | #30 |
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4th April 2018, 07:40 PM | #31 |
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4th April 2018, 07:45 PM | #32 |
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4th April 2018, 07:49 PM | #33 |
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4th April 2018, 07:51 PM | #34 |
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4th April 2018, 07:52 PM | #35 |
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4th April 2018, 08:01 PM | #36 |
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So? Still not absolutely impossible.
Wrong again! I have spent very much time debating with "the chemtrail crowd". I'm only advocating the "Do not pass Go" method for religions, not chemtrailers or flatearthers because they get to start past "Go" given contrails and Earth are known to exist by way of credible evidence. Can you not see the difference? |
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4th April 2018, 08:05 PM | #37 |
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Quote:
Contrails exist, and chemtrails don't. There's no evidence that chemtrails exist. The "evidence" that they do is bunk or mere speculation, just like the "evidence" supporting belief in deities. |
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4th April 2018, 08:13 PM | #38 |
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Depends what you mean by effective. If you're looking for interesting and entertaining debates that rarely change anything then not as effective as the "old" method. But if you're looking to put the onus of a paranormal claim where it belongs, then I'm finding it quite effective.
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4th April 2018, 08:17 PM | #39 |
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4th April 2018, 08:20 PM | #40 |
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