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6th April 2018, 02:03 PM | #121 |
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Kelly, I forgot I laid all this out in post 56 last night. Tell me which premises you have a problem with.
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6th April 2018, 02:13 PM | #122 |
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6th April 2018, 02:15 PM | #123 |
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Err .... no. The point of the thread was whether it was possible to reason someone out of a religion they were not reasoned into. Personally, I believe it difficult but does happen sometimes. I've managed to reason some out of religious belief, although to be honest their belief was wavering before I started on them. I think I may have put a chink in the belief of others who were more ardent, but it's difficult to assess the long term outcome. Regarding your alternatives of God or multiverse both having no evidence of support and therefore being equally possible I say nonsense. I would suggest as an analogy, many years ago people would have speculated on the cause of thunder. It could have been suggested that either the cause was a god called Thor, (a relative of mine ), or some as yet unexplained natural phenomena. Would those two options have had equal chance of being possible? |
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6th April 2018, 02:19 PM | #124 |
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, there's a missing premise of "something we haven't thought of yet" and a TOE solving some of it. |
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6th April 2018, 02:22 PM | #125 |
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6th April 2018, 02:26 PM | #126 |
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By definition, a claimed god can do anything. Any claimed god. All of them.
Your claim is now that all gods must exist because philosophy and nobody may dispute that. That is your consequence. Odin is a god, Ra is a god, Gilgamesh is a god and you simply must accept all of them as valid. Good luck with that. |
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6th April 2018, 02:34 PM | #127 |
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All this talk of God versus multiverses and fine tuning leaves me unimpressed.
We, (carbon based life form), may be one of many different possibilities. Out there, (in our universe or others), there may be other life forms of a completely different type. They may be pondering why their world is so fine tuned to be complimentary to their own existence. To the god believing theists I ask: What kind of life form is your god? |
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6th April 2018, 02:50 PM | #128 |
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Err… and I raise you an Err…
Well I certainly would. Given you champion “anything is possible” do you? Or do you suggest “anything” such as homeopathic “medicine” as some other “anything is possible” champions do? “There’s zilch evidence yet discovered” isn’t the same as “There’s zilch evidence yet to be discovered (but there could be)”. That zilch evidence means they're all equally improbable with no credible reason to conclude any are possible, doesn’t mean there’s zilch evidence yet to be discovered and we give up. Doesn’t mean there is such evidence yet to be discovered either. We only know what we DO know, not what we MIGHT know. |
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6th April 2018, 02:54 PM | #129 |
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No. Supernovas are naturally occurring events that you don't need to invoke theism for. Predicting one in the next five minutes would make you extremely lucky, but that's it. If you did it again, THEN we would have to start thinking of alternative hypotheses.
A rigged universe, on the other hand, which is the fine-tuning problem, demands something exceptional by way of explanation, whether it's a huge multiverse or a god. |
6th April 2018, 02:55 PM | #130 |
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6th April 2018, 03:06 PM | #131 |
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You missed my point I think. I was suggesting that the degree of probability of the two options was not identical. Also I would suggest there was no such time as pre-science days. We have been using the scientific method of finding stuff out from day one. Other animals use it also - albeit at a lesser level than man. |
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6th April 2018, 03:06 PM | #132 |
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The consensus says otherwise, as I've demonstrated in links. Part of the reason multiverse theory is popular is that it solves fine-tuning problems like the flatness problem. Ergo fine-tuning problems exist. Ergo, coincidence is not the preferred explanation.
"Eternal chaotic inflation, which generates multiple universes, builds from the theory of cosmic inflation, originated by physicist Alan Guth at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He formulated cosmic inflation to solve several deep problems in the cosmology of our universe — for example, why was the early universe extremely (and strangely) homogeneous, even though separated regions were causally disconnected? (Regions could not cause effects with others because the distances were too great and the elapsed time was too short, even though information was being exchanged at the speed of light, what theorists call the "horizon problem"." https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-u...ultiverse.html The horizon problem is a fine-tuning problem. Inflation theory was proposed to solve these fine-tuning problems. Coincidence as an explanatory hypothesis is not taken seriously.
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"It is easy to forget that each of these new pocket universes is vastly larger than our observable universe (see next section). But these new universes are not superstrange, since they all exist within the same space-time framework that we know in our universe — though they erupt far beyond what we can see in our observable universe. What's more, once these new pocket universes are born, they are totally and forever disconnected from every other universe (including ours)." https://www.space.com/31465-is-our-u...ultiverse.html
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6th April 2018, 03:10 PM | #133 |
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Homeopathy has been so close to ruled out it might as well be totally, 100% ruled out, but at heart, I'm basically a solipsist, so...sure..let the homeopaths and squatchers and anti-vampire brigaders et al keep looking, for all I care. LOL
I don't think there's rock sold strong evidence against a multiverse, tho. I don't think the multiverse theory is shamefully outlandish. There is, from what I understand, a good bit of converging evidence suggesting it's true. |
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6th April 2018, 03:49 PM | #134 |
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Can anything ever be 100% ruled out with an "everything is possible (therefore nothing is impossible)" philosophy?
(IMO) "Anything is possible" is a I wasn't talking "looking" I was talking "practicing" as if it were true. Do you care about that? There would have to be rock solid evidence for a multiverse (that I was capable of understanding) before I would class it as not outlandish (using your word). |
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6th April 2018, 04:09 PM | #135 |
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I'm not sure what you mean about practicing vs looking when it comes to anything, really.
Here's some "legit" evidence favoring a multiverse, if the science writing isn't poor, which is possible: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ses-ncna771076
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6th April 2018, 04:34 PM | #136 |
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Really!
"Practicing" means putting into practice. Believing and claiming it's true and selling it to others as a credible cure. "Looking" means examining to see of it's true. Not believing claiming it's either true or false until it has proven to be either. Think that's enough for me on "everything is possible". |
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6th April 2018, 04:58 PM | #137 |
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How would you put multiverse theory into practice?
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6th April 2018, 05:06 PM | #138 |
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6th April 2018, 05:23 PM | #139 |
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As part of a larger discussion of competing hypotheses for which there is or was no convincing evidence. I could just as easily have used static universe vs big bang instead of disease theories as an example of how you're wrong to say "If there's zilch evidence for both then both are equally improbable with no credible reason to conclude either are possible."
"Maybe" (aka, "it's possible") is the default if there's no evidence ruling something out. The only real exception is an unfalsifiable hypothesis, and even then it's not because it's literally assumed to be impossible, but because it's scientifically unproductive to just settle for one of those. |
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6th April 2018, 06:03 PM | #140 |
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Yes that was quite clear to me and it's puzzling that kellyb missed it.
For the record I do care if someone in practising homeopathy instead of science based medicine. Well not so much for themselves but for their children certainly. It has been getting a good deal of publicity lately in Australia, that some church groups are subjecting homosexuals to demon driving out rituals, with considerable mental harm being done to those being subjected to it. I care about that sort of stuff too. |
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6th April 2018, 06:12 PM | #141 |
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I just thought it was a nonsense question, since it started with my hypothetical of "Lets pretend it's 1600 and we're trying to figure out what makes people sick. So far, people have proposed: hypothesis 1, hypothesis 2, and hypothesis 3."...and then he threw in "Given you champion “anything is possible” do you? Or do you suggest “anything” such as homeopathic “medicine” as some other “anything is possible” champions do?
That's the perspective of scientific curiosity and hypothesis testing, not a practitioner of anything. |
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6th April 2018, 07:43 PM | #142 |
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6th April 2018, 08:18 PM | #143 |
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6th April 2018, 08:35 PM | #144 |
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I think you're right about this - and ynot's FTFY was wrong: They didn't get religious because they thought that proof of God existed. They become religious because they need religion, but a question remains: How do they lose this need? How do they become uninterested in religion? The Death of Religion – not with a bang but with a whimper |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th April 2018, 09:02 PM | #145 |
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I think most of those types were nominally religious because they were told god is real as children, and people believe what they're told as a general rule, and then as adults got to thinking about it and decided it was stupid, and/or just naturally morphed into apatheism.
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6th April 2018, 09:09 PM | #146 |
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Just read the "death of religion" post, and definitely. Australia is a very good place for nominal "I dunno, it's just what my mom told me" theists to naturally age into basic apatheism nowadays.
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6th April 2018, 09:46 PM | #147 |
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For some reason I never heard of apatheism until now - I may have seen the word and considered it to be a spelling mistake, I don't know - but it's a great concept.
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As an atheist I think I'm leaning more and more towards apatheism myself. I long for the day when the question of religion is only of historical interest. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th April 2018, 10:04 PM | #148 |
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6th April 2018, 10:04 PM | #149 |
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6th April 2018, 10:39 PM | #150 |
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The question was why atheists were never theists or were then became atheists, not why they became theists.
The reason people can be apathetic about religion is because there’s no credible evidence of any god’s actual existence. Do you think people could or would be apathetic if there was? |
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6th April 2018, 10:51 PM | #151 |
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6th April 2018, 11:08 PM | #152 |
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You're an idealist! You actually imagine people walking around looking for evidence for stuff, making up their minds only after careful consideration of pro & con. Most of the time they don't. And the apatheists - and the concept fits extremely well for the Danes, who tend to be members of the state church but rarely believe in God - don't believe because religion has become irrelevant to them because they no longer need it. So they give it up. The question of "credible evidence of any god’s actual existence" simply doesn't concern them and never did. (See my Death of Religion post and the NYT article it links to!)
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That is a different question, but the reason why there isn't is that there is no God, not that there is no evidence of one. But in your hypothetical scenario where God not only exists but is on prime time TV every night, it would be stupid not to believe in him, but that is not the case. (People also don't believe in Santa, but they don't really run around looking for evidence. A few believers devote most of their waking hours to finding evidence for the existence of Sasquatch. That the rest of us don't isn't really because we've been convinced by meticulous studies of the evidence delivered so far that Sasquatch doesn't exist. It's because we don't give a damn if he does or not.) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th April 2018, 11:12 PM | #153 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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6th April 2018, 11:52 PM | #154 |
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The point is that if there was credible evidence of a god people wouldn't have to be walking around looking for evidence for stuff, making up their minds only after careful consideration of pro & con as it would be world-wide headline news on every form of media that would be extremely difficult to ignore. You do realise this is all hypothetical?
The first part you quoted wasn't even a question. If Santa and Sasquatch were proven to be real it would be stupid not to believe in them as well. Although their reality would hardly be on the same level of importance as a god's reality. You do realise this is all hypothetical? |
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7th April 2018, 12:19 AM | #155 |
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You are aware that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, right? What reality is independent of the mind is unknown other that a part of reality is independent of the mind.
Any claim of what reality is independent of the mind other than independent of the mind is without evidence and can't be decided using reason and logic. If we look at reality in practice there are humans, who believe in the supernatural, those humans, who believe in the natural and those who doesn't care. You can't use reason, logic and evidence to decide what reality is independently of the mind. You believe in an un-reflected or reflected manner in something no matter what. Even if you don't care, that is still subjective and a sort of cognitive belief. From the fact that a human believes in the supernatural nothing else follows. You can have pacifists, militants, communists, libertarians and so on among religious humans. The same with non-religious humans. Even if we remove religion, it doesn't follow that the world would become better. If you by evidence mean scientific evidence, then you can't use evidence, reason and logic to do moral and ethical evaluations. They are always subjective and not independent of bias. Any sufficiently complex claim of what reality is, is a variant of cognitive relativism and any claim of good and bad is a subjective bias. So since you can do scientific evidence, do evidence of what reality really is and what good and bad is!!! With regards |
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7th April 2018, 12:53 AM | #156 |
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Pretty much the same in the UK in my experience. Thirty years ago, lots of people might sort of say that they believed in god if pushed.
Indifference is the main attitude I think of for most people in the UK. It suits me fine. My kids friends seem more atheistic than their parents - disbelief as opposed to not caring. |
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7th April 2018, 01:08 AM | #157 |
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7th April 2018, 01:27 AM | #158 |
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7th April 2018, 01:52 AM | #159 |
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Yes, the weak anthropic principle is all that is needed. It has been alluded to upthread with the metaphor of the water thinking that the form the puddle is designed to fit it.
As an aside, I would say that given the laws of chemistry and physics, carbon-based life would be the most common and there are good reasons for thinking that liquid wayer would also be important... not that invalidates your argument. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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7th April 2018, 01:56 AM | #160 |
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Some people are aoathetic about all sorts of important things for which there is plenty of evidence in the real world. Poverty in their own countries, the bad things done by their governments, abuses of democracy, institutionalised racism, etc.
I don't see why the existence of God would be any different. |
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