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Old 7th April 2018, 02:06 AM   #161
ynot
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Some people are aoathetic about all sorts of important things for which there is plenty of evidence in the real world. Poverty in their own countries, the bad things done by their governments, abuses of democracy, institutionalised racism, etc.

I don't see why the existence of God would be any different.
You really think that poverty, the bad things done by governments, abuses of democracy, institutionalised racism, etc. are even remotely comparable in importance to finding out a god actually exists. Do you realise the extreme life and death consequences of a god like the Christian one actually existing?
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:14 AM   #162
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The point is that if there was credible evidence of a god people wouldn't have to be walking around looking for evidence for stuff, making up their minds only after careful consideration of pro & con as it would be world-wide headline news on every form of media that would be extremely difficult to ignore. You do realise this is all hypothetical?

Yes, I realize that it's hypothetical, so you don't really need to ask. Did it confuse you that I explicitly said so?!

Quote:
The first part you quoted wasn't even a question. If Santa and Sasquatch were proven to be real it would be stupid not to believe in them as well. Although their reality would hardly be on the same level of importance as a god's reality. You do realise this is all hypothetical?

Yes, I do realize that it's all hypothetical. And the reason why I explicitly said so wasn't in order to confuse you about the fact. What you seem to confuse is people's reasons for giving up their religious faith. You confuse the actual reason why most people stop being religious with a prerequisite for doing so:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The question was why atheists were never theists or were theists, but then became atheists, not why they became theists.

The reason people can be apathetic about religion is because there’s no credible evidence of any god’s actual existence. Do you think people could or would be apathetic if there was?

FTFY! (Or am I mistaken about what you intended to write? Correct me if I'm wrong.)

You don't seem to get that the reason why people could be so tremendously wrong for thousands of years about the existence of God was that they needed him and so they invented him. And except for some professional theologians, they weren't really obsessed with evidence. They needed the comforting idea of a deity, a good father figure who'd watch out for them and reward them for being good and punish all the bad guys (if not here in reality where they were obviously thriving then at least beyond). They didn't need evidence (the Good Book even warned them against requiring evidence!), and yet they invented evidence all the time, for instance when a bad guy died untimely, it was obviously God's punishment, and when a good guy did, it was because God wanted to spare him from having to walk through the vale of tears or the valley of the shadow of death. And the evidence was always credible because they wanted and needed to believe. It can't really be more credible than that. (See Trump and his faithful followers if you still think that people need evidence in order to believe in something that they feel a need to believe in!)

And basically, things haven't changed much. In spite of education etc. people still decide to misinterpret the doctor when he tells them that there is no hope of prolonging life; all that's left is palliative treatment. I've collected a couple of good links here about this and similar questions.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:20 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You really think that poverty, the bad things done by governments, abuses of democracy, institutionalised racism, etc. are even remotely comparable in importance to finding out a god actually exists. Do you realise the extreme life and death consequences of a god like the Christian one actually existing?

I think we all do, but you seem to be the one who doesn't quite get that it's hypothetical!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:35 AM   #164
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You really think that poverty, the bad things done by governments, abuses of democracy, institutionalised racism, etc. are even remotely comparable in importance to finding out a god actually exists. Do you realise the extreme life and death consequences of a god like the Christian one actually existing?
Since your question can essentially be rephrased as "do you think that unimaginable human suffering and unnecessary death are even remotely comparable to unimaginable human suffering and unnecessary death?", then the answer is an easy yes. At best you're talking about a matter of degree.
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:40 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Since your question can essentially be rephrased as "do you think that unimaginable human suffering and unnecessary death are even remotely comparable to unimaginable human suffering and unnecessary death?", then the answer is an easy yes. At best you're talking about a matter of degree.
You are forgetting/ignoring the consequences of an actual eternal afterlife of eternal bliss or suffering.
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:45 AM   #166
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I think proof of god would change everyone's lives. They wouldn't just go around ignoring that.
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Old 7th April 2018, 02:47 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You are forgetting/ignoring the consequences of an actual eternal afterlife of eternal bliss or suffering.
Yes but you are thinking about it rationally.

Many humans take up smoking though they know that they'd have a good chance of getting cancer in later life.

Indifference says nothing beyond the fact that people are indifferent.
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Old 7th April 2018, 03:00 AM   #168
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Utter rubbish! Lack of evidence is obviously evidence of lack of evidence.
-Lack of evidence
versus
-Evidence of lack
is not the same.

That there is no positive evidence for god(s) doesn't mean that there are no god(s).

With regards
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Old 7th April 2018, 03:52 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You are forgetting/ignoring the consequences of an actual eternal afterlife of eternal bliss or suffering.

Like you said:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You do realise this is all hypothetical?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2018, 04:27 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You are forgetting/ignoring the consequences of an actual eternal afterlife of eternal bliss or suffering.
Well, leaving aside the question of whether or not the Christian God* actually does imply those things, then as I said at best you're talking about a matter of degree. If your contention is that there is a certain threshold above which suffering not directly and immediately impacting people is something that cannot be ignored by anybody, then I'd ask for some evidence that this is true.

I would say that the existence of, to pick one example, the American healthcare system, in which tens of thousands of people die preventable deaths (usually with a great deal of suffering) because the system is run for profit, and the fact that that majority of Americans are blasé about this - despite the fact that this (or bankruptcy) could happen to them or those they love, and despite the wealth of evidence that nationalised healtcare is cheaper and saves more lives - is good evidence that people find being apathetic over this kind of thing quite easy. It's much easier to be concerned about the problems that are directly affecting you now than it is to worry about a potential future problem you may have.

*And, indeed, an appropriate question might be which Christian God? It's not, after all, as if Christianity is one homogeneous whole with all members believing the same things or believing that God has the same attributes.
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Old 7th April 2018, 04:57 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
... the American healthcare system, in which tens of thousands of people die preventable deaths (usually with a great deal of suffering) because the system is run for profit, and the fact that that majority of Americans are blasé about this - despite the fact that this (or bankruptcy) could happen to them or those they love, ...

That's probably the major reason why Americans need religion (and pay for it, too!) to the extent that they do - unlike more civilized countries.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th April 2018, 11:16 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That's probably the major reason why Americans need religion (and pay for it, too!) to the extent that they do - unlike more civilized countries.
Yeah, the church's request of 10% is very small potatoes compared to what the healthcare system in the US demands of a great many people for entrance into those pearly gates.
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Old 7th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
All this talk of God versus multiverses and fine tuning leaves me unimpressed.

We, (carbon based life form), may be one of many different possibilities. Out there, (in our universe or others), there may be other life forms of a completely different type. They may be pondering why their world is so fine tuned to be complimentary to their own existence. To the god believing theists I ask: What kind of life form is your god?
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, the weak anthropic principle is all that is needed. It has been alluded to upthread with the metaphor of the water thinking that the form the puddle is designed to fit it.

As an aside, I would say that given the laws of chemistry and physics, carbon-based life would be the most common and there are good reasons for thinking that liquid wayer would also be important... not that invalidates your argument.

Thanks for that jimbob.

I had hoped to get some input from theists in response to the final question in my post.

"What kind of life form is your god?"

This sort of strikes at the heart of the "fine tuning" argument so popular with theists I think. The god entity is a life form yes? One that is quite at home in any sort of environment perhaps?
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Old 7th April 2018, 03:55 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for that jimbob.

I had hoped to get some input from theists in response to the final question in my post.

"What kind of life form is your god?"

This sort of strikes at the heart of the "fine tuning" argument so popular with theists I think. The god entity is a life form yes? One that is quite at home in any sort of environment perhaps?
As an aside, in year 5, my son was asked to draw their idea of god*

He drew an old man with a beard sitting on a cloud... and Zeus, Thor, Ganesh, and an alien (obviously aliens wouldn't have human gods). I was quite proud. I can't remember if I had introduced him to the FSM by that time.



*which I thought was pretty poor in a non-religious school, and somewhat unaware how offensive it might be to any Muslims.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:29 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post

........

I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians.

.......

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

......

I am most interested in the above. Did you reason your way into theism? If so how did this work?

.......

Never did get an answer to this question GDon.

We hear so much of reason being used by atheists to explain their lack of belief, although responses on this thread seem to suggest it is not a common way for theists to lose their faith.

If you used reason to get into faith that would be interesting to hear about.
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:48 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
-Lack of evidence
versus
-Evidence of lack
is not the same.

That there is no positive evidence for god(s) doesn't mean that there are no god(s).

With regards
To the highlighted, it sure as hell means there is no reason to think there are god(s). Because otherwise I could have a million dollars in my checking account and not even know it because there is no evidence of it being there.

I'm pretty sure the reason for the lack of evidence for the hypothetical million in my checking account is that it isn't there. Pursuant to that reasoning, I'm going to play it safe and not write any large checks.

But I don't even buy your reasoning to the above extent. I think lack of evidence for god(s) is, in fact, evidence against god(s). It is an unlikely god whose existence cannot be differentiated from it's nonexistence.
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Old 8th April 2018, 04:45 PM   #177
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Why don’t god-huggers say - “That there is no positive evidence for Titanosaur Argentinosaurus Vuinculensis(s) doesn't mean that there are no Titanosaur Argentinosaurus Vuintulensis(s)”? There’s good evidence that Titanosaur Argentinosaurus Vuinculensis(s) can possibly exists as there’s good evidence they once existed. Can't say that about any god.
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Old 8th April 2018, 11:38 PM   #178
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Nobody has a psychological need for Titanosaur Argentinosaurus Vuinculensis.
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Old 8th April 2018, 11:52 PM   #179
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
To the highlighted, it sure as hell means there is no reason to think there are god(s). Because otherwise I could have a million dollars in my checking account and not even know it because there is no evidence of it being there.

I'm pretty sure the reason for the lack of evidence for the hypothetical million in my checking account is that it isn't there. Pursuant to that reasoning, I'm going to play it safe and not write any large checks.

But I don't even buy your reasoning to the above extent. I think lack of evidence for god(s) is, in fact, evidence against god(s). It is an unlikely god whose existence cannot be differentiated from it's nonexistence.
You are doing a light version of magical thinking. It goes like this: That you think/reason reality in toto is in certain way will not determine/cause reality to be in a certain way. Rather since you are a result of reality, you are caused by reality and you are the result(effect). Your thinking/reasoning is the result of being caused by reality as such.

So you(Y) are caused by natural reality(NR) or you are caused by another reality(AR). Another reality could e.g. be by a god or that you are a Boltzmann brain.
So it goes like this:
NR->Y
OR
AR->Y
but since you are the same, Y, you can't tell if reality is natural reality, NR, or another reality, AR.

All you have given evidence for, is what you believe reality is. Not what reality is independently of your mind.

For all the highlighted parts, they are cases of your thinking about what reality is to you, not what reality is independently of the mind.

With regard
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:35 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Nobody has a psychological need for Titanosaur Argentinosaurus Vuinculensis.
True - You win
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:52 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
True - You win
You and I also have psychological beliefs for which science can't be used to give evidence for.

With regards
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:00 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You are doing a light version of magical thinking. It goes like this: That you think/reason reality in toto is in certain way will not determine/cause reality to be in a certain way. Rather since you are a result of reality, you are caused by reality and you are the result(effect). Your thinking/reasoning is the result of being caused by reality as such.

So you(Y) are caused by natural reality(NR) or you are caused by another reality(AR). Another reality could e.g. be by a god or that you are a Boltzmann brain.
So it goes like this:
NR->Y
OR
AR->Y
but since you are the same, Y, you can't tell if reality is natural reality, NR, or another reality, AR.

All you have given evidence for, is what you believe reality is. Not what reality is independently of your mind.

For all the highlighted parts, they are cases of your thinking about what reality is to you, not what reality is independently of the mind.

With regard
I had a look at that rabbit hole when I was about twelve, it didn't take long for me to decide it was rather sterile, once you accept that the only certainty is one's own existence at that particular time. I certainly have no proof that the English language means what I think it does, but the most parsimonious explanation is that it generally does and we have an external existence.

Not being a stoner hippy, I find the discussion about whether you can prove reality a bit pointless, maan. (TLDR - you can't, but it's not going to change anything either way).

Given all this, Toontown is correct in saying there is no reason to think that there are any gods.

It's also reasonable to argue that there is evidence against the majority of the deities that people have believed in.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:01 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You and I also have psychological beliefs for which science can't be used to give evidence for.

With regards
You might, but I don't think I have. Perhaps you might suggest what I'm missing.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:04 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
You might, but I don't think I have. Perhaps you might suggest what I'm missing.
I think you're talking to someone who thinks the idea that "reality is natural" is nothing more than "psychological belief" lacking proof.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:08 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think you're talking to someone who thinks the idea that "reality is natural" is nothing more than "psychological belief" lacking proof.
I'm already regretting asking for a suggestion. I'm expecting something like "love". Why isn't it ever "hate"?
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:11 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think you're talking to someone who thinks the idea that "reality is natural" is nothing more than "psychological belief" lacking proof.
That and morality/ethics.

We can stay within methodological naturalism and yet there is still something for which you can't use science. Namely morality/ethics, that is subjective/inter-subjective and psychological and not objective, thus science doesn't work on that, yet it is natural.

With regards
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:12 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'm already regretting asking for a suggestion. I'm expecting something like "love". Why isn't it ever "hate"?
No, e.g. that rationality is better than irrationality is a psychological belief and a subjective bias.

With regards
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:17 AM   #188
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I don't actually think rationality is necessarily always better. I think "better" is a matter of opinion at its core, too.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:22 AM   #189
ynot
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
No, e.g. that rationality is better than irrationality is a psychological belief and a subjective bias.

With regards
Rubbish. It's merely true. Give an example of irrationality being better than rationality. ( I will regret this).

If irrational ever became better than rational it would immediately become rational.
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
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Last edited by ynot; 9th April 2018 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:27 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
That and morality/ethics.

We can stay within methodological naturalism and yet there is still something for which you can't use science. Namely morality/ethics, that is subjective/inter-subjective and psychological and not objective, thus science doesn't work on that, yet it is natural.

With regards
Dear god, you do talk/think crap! Morals and ethics are merely abstract human constructs that are essentially rules and guidelines to help our societies to function as harmoniously as possble. There's no such thing as intrinsic morals and ethics. They don't come from invisible, magical gods either
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Last edited by ynot; 9th April 2018 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:33 AM   #191
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Rubbish. It's merely true. Give an example of irrationality being better than rationality. ( I will regret this).
Concentrate on the word "better". It is not objective, because it is not tangible, concrete or observable through external sensation (see, hear, touch and so on).
So better is subjective and not a result of reason and logic. It is an emotional evaluation, yet there are humans who think/feel that "that rationality is better than irrationality" is rational. I.e not a subjective bias/emotion and that it is rational to claim "that rationality is better than irrationality". It is not, it is irrational to claim that.
Thus it is irrationally better for those humans to believe/think/feel "that rationality is better than irrationality".

Note that you use "rubbish", that is an emotion. That "it is merely true" is stated without reason, logic and evidence and as it stands is a dogmatic assertion.

With regard
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:34 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Rubbish. It's merely true. Give an example of irrationality being better than rationality. ( I will regret this).

If irrational ever became better than rational it would immediately become rational.
Irrational delusions can bring happiness.
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Last edited by kellyb; 9th April 2018 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:47 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Irrational delusions can bring happiness.
If happiness at any cost is the "better" and irrational delusions bring happiness, then the delusions would be rational for the purpose of bringing happiness.

Is using irrational delusions a "better" way to gain happiness than other options? Do irrational delusions have a "better' effect on the brains of the deluded? How about gaining happiness from drugs that ruin health and kill? Is happiness at any cost ever "better".
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Last edited by ynot; 9th April 2018 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:52 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If happiness is the "better" and irrational delusions bring happiness, then the delusions would be rational for the purpose of bringing happiness.

Is using irrational delusions a "better" way to gain happiness than other options? Do irrational deluesions have a "better effect on the brains of the deluded? How about gaining happiness from drugs that ruin health and kill? Is happiness at any cost ever "better".
That's why I said "better" is a matter of opinion. "Better" (as used in this sense) presumes "chosen metrics".
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If happiness at any cost is the "better" and irrational delusions bring happiness, then the delusions would be rational for the purpose of bringing happiness.

Is using irrational delusions a "better" way to gain happiness than other options? Do irrational deluesions have a "better effect on the brains of the deluded? How about gaining happiness from drugs that ruin health and kill? Is happiness at any cost ever "better".
I like a nice single malt with friends.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:59 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I like a nice single malt with friends.
I'll drink to that - Cheers.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:02 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's why I said "better" is a matter of opinion. "Better" (as used in this sense) presumes "chosen metrics".
If irrational delusions are better according to chosen metrics for gaining happiness then the delusions are rational for that purpose.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:03 AM   #198
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I find some people's obsession with happiness quite saddening.
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
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Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 9th April 2018 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:11 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
If irrational delusions are better according to chosen metrics for gaining happiness then the delusions are rational for that purpose.
Yeah, but the delusions themselves are still irrational.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:12 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I find some people's obsession with happiness quite saddening.
That's coz you're irrationally attached to rationality.
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