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Old 9th April 2018, 02:14 AM   #201
ynot
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, but the delusions themselves are still irrational.
Not for the purpose they're being used. Is this the start of another endless debate?
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:17 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's coz you're irrationally attached to rationality.
But I'm in love with rationality. Surely you're not saying love is irrational? Haven't you heard that love is even better than happiness? +
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:21 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Not for the purpose they're being used. Is this the start of another endless debate?
Delusions are generally just experienced, not used.

And no idea.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:25 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Delusions are generally just experienced, not used.
Okay . . . Not for the purpose they're being used experienced

Nighty, night.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:39 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, but the delusions themselves are still irrational.
But not all forms of irrationality is delusional.
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Old 9th April 2018, 06:26 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You are doing a light version of magical thinking.
No I'm not.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
It goes like this: That you think/reason reality in toto is in certain way will not determine/cause reality to be in a certain way.
Glad you told me that. I never would have known.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Rather since you are a result of reality, you are caused by reality and you are the result(effect). Your thinking/reasoning is the result of being caused by reality as such.
Wow. I never would have known that either. But I fail to see how being caused by reality prevents me from noticing that I see reality and deal with it all the time. But I've never seen hide nor hair of any of these god(s) people keep talking about.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
So you(Y) are caused by natural reality(NR) or you are caused by another reality(AR). Another reality could e.g. be by a god or that you are a Boltzmann brain.
So it goes like this:
NR->Y
OR
AR->Y
but since you are the same, Y, you can't tell if reality is natural reality, NR, or another reality, AR.
The tautologous fact that I am the same either way offers me no clue as to what you think the difference is between Natural Reality and Alternate Reality.

It is what it is and does what it does, whatever you call it. Call it Natural Reality, or Alternate Reality, or call it Drunken Ira Hayes, it won't answer.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
All you have given evidence for, is what you believe reality is. Not what reality is independently of your mind.


I do not recall saying what I believe realty is. I recall briefly explaining a little bit about how I play the odds.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
For all the highlighted parts, they are cases of your thinking about what reality is to you, not what reality is independently of the mind.
And the entirety of all your posts are cases of your thinking about how everyone should think about reality.

And the entirety of them have given me zero cause to suspect that I should abandon my thinking on it in favor of yours.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:50 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
...

The tautologous fact that I am the same either way offers me no clue as to what you think the difference is between Natural Reality and Alternate Reality.
...
There is a difference, but that is not the point per se. The point is that is unknown and it can't be decided by you what reality you are in. Yet some people use the one or the other belief to judge other humans.
But you can't judge any other human based on something, which is unknown, because you don't known which version is correct.

So let us look at wrong in the non-moral sense. I.e. correct and incorrect answers. A human ought to give correct answer and giving an incorrect answer makes that human wrong as in mistaken and in error. But no human can be wrong when it comes to metaphysical beliefs, because there is no way to decide which one version is the correct answer.
So a religious human can't use a belief in God to judge you, but if you do that, you can't use a belief in Natural Reality to judge a religious human, because what reality is independently of the mind is unknown other than that reality is independent of the mind.

All humans judge other humans based on different combinations of subjective biases as per reasoning, logic, evidence and emotions. There is no universal/objective/external standard for judging other humans. It is always a personal and subjective judgement including that other humans are in error and/or mistaken.
You can't observe wrong through external sensory input, you can't using an objectively calibrated instrument to measure wrong and there is no scientific theory for wrong.

A naturalist to a supernaturalist: You are wrong (non-moral sense).
In reverse: No, you are wrong.
The joke is that they are both irrational, because they claim something without reasoning, logic and evidence.

So nobody holds in practice Objective Authority over any other humans, when it comes to judgement and evaluation of worth, because it is always subjective.

I don't want anything from you, other than if you claim that you know that other human can be wrong in the non-moral sense, that you give evidence for that. But if you are a general skeptic, you know that is not possible. I accept you anyway as a human regardless of what you think/believe/feel. I am just pointing out that you are not wrong just because somebody claims that. But that also works the same way in the other direction.

With regard
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Old 10th April 2018, 06:43 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
There is a difference, but that is not the point per se. The point is that is unknown and it can't be decided by you what reality you are in. Yet some people use the one or the other belief to judge other humans.
But you can't judge any other human based on something, which is unknown, because you don't known which version is correct.

So let us look at wrong in the non-moral sense. I.e. correct and incorrect answers. A human ought to give correct answer and giving an incorrect answer makes that human wrong as in mistaken and in error. But no human can be wrong when it comes to metaphysical beliefs, because there is no way to decide which one version is the correct answer.
So a religious human can't use a belief in God to judge you, but if you do that, you can't use a belief in Natural Reality to judge a religious human, because what reality is independently of the mind is unknown other than that reality is independent of the mind.

All humans judge other humans based on different combinations of subjective biases as per reasoning, logic, evidence and emotions. There is no universal/objective/external standard for judging other humans. It is always a personal and subjective judgement including that other humans are in error and/or mistaken.
You can't observe wrong through external sensory input, you can't using an objectively calibrated instrument to measure wrong and there is no scientific theory for wrong.

A naturalist to a supernaturalist: You are wrong (non-moral sense).
In reverse: No, you are wrong.
The joke is that they are both irrational, because they claim something without reasoning, logic and evidence.

So nobody holds in practice Objective Authority over any other humans, when it comes to judgement and evaluation of worth, because it is always subjective.

I don't want anything from you, other than if you claim that you know that other human can be wrong in the non-moral sense, that you give evidence for that. But if you are a general skeptic, you know that is not possible. I accept you anyway as a human regardless of what you think/believe/feel. I am just pointing out that you are not wrong just because somebody claims that. But that also works the same way in the other direction.

With regard
So, long story short, you're trying to reason people out of trying to reason people out of religion.

The yellow is there to highlight your use of absolutism, which is "absolutely" paralyzing when attempting to deal with that which cannot be absolutely known.

I treat my knowledge about that which cannot be absolutely known as scalar values ranging from 0 to 1.

I don't even consider your absolutism valid or worth talking about. I consider it a form of intellectual paralysis.
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Old 10th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
So, long story short, you're trying to reason people out of trying to reason people out of religion.
Yes, in the sense that reason is sterile and you have to combine it with emotions.


Quote:
The yellow is there to highlight your use of absolutism, which is "absolutely" paralyzing when attempting to deal with that which cannot be absolutely known.
Okay, skepticism on skepticism. We can't really in principle know if I am God, therefore I am God.
In practice gravity and subjective morality/ethics are equally certain, absolute and what not, yet of course the induction problem means that tomorrow the universe will stop existing.

Quote:
I treat my knowledge about that which cannot be absolutely known as scalar values ranging from 0 to 1.
Okay, nothing can be known to be absolute in the strong sense, I agree, therefore jump out from a 50th floor window and start flying. You in practice act with certainty otherwise you couldn't act. Of course sometimes you doubt, but most of the time you act with certainty or you wouldn't have a normal life. There are humans with a certain kind of brain damage, who can't act in the normal sense, because they keep doubting in effect and reconsider, because they want to be certain with reason alone. They can't say: I stop here and choose, because they continue to reason.

Quote:
I don't even consider your absolutism valid or worth talking about. I consider it a form of intellectual paralysis.
You want a better world, right?!!! Then start treating everybody different from you as wrong even in the non-moral sense and point out that only you and your "we" can decide right and wrong. And then you are no different that those you oppose.
The point is that I have tried to do that with reason, logic and evidence. I failed! I figured out that reason, logic and evidence are not absolute and in practice I have to include emotions.

You want to convince other humans, right. Okay, you are human and I am a human and neither of us hold authority over each other or other humans. Wait, that is an absolute. Sorry, I hold authority over you, because I say so. Right, you know that is not case. That goes the other way too.

Yes, religious humans can be dangerous, yet they are also humans and if you start treating them in effect in a derogatory way you increase the chance of you and others getting hurt. Treat them as humans, as you would like to be treated.
Do you like be called irrational or wrong? No, then don't use words, which can offend.
You believe differently that me. I accept that. I am just pointing out that all humans are humans and nobody has the upper hand on others with reason, logic and evidence when it comes to morality or what reality really is.

What religious humans do, is natural and they are humans.
We are equal as humans and different as individuals.

With regards

BTW I treat you as an equal, because you are a skeptic and ought to be able to figure out that reason, logic and evidence are not absolute and thus also not able to stand alone when it comes to morality.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
But not all forms of irrationality is delusional.

I think I may have my finger on the reason why you Tommy are not getting thru to so many here. The above sentence for example is nonsensical. I will try and make a sentence that does make sense, with the words irrationality and delusional therein.

- "But not all forms of irrationality result from delusional thought."

Perhaps a clearer way to say it:

- "But not all examples of irrational thought or action result from delusion."

On the other hand you may be trying to say, it may not be delusional to see irrationality as such???

Hope this helps,

With regards,

Thor
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:51 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
So, long story short, you're trying to reason people out of trying to reason people out of religion.

The yellow is there to highlight your use of absolutism, which is "absolutely" paralyzing when attempting to deal with that which cannot be absolutely known.

I treat my knowledge about that which cannot be absolutely known as scalar values ranging from 0 to 1.

I don't even consider your absolutism valid or worth talking about. I consider it a form of intellectual paralysis.
I have used "intellectually sterile" and "rabbit hole" and probably could euphemistically call it "intellectual self-abuse" on this forum, but I'd go along with that term too.
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Old 10th April 2018, 02:55 PM   #212
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Centering back on the subject matter of this thread, it would seem that most here agree, that trying to reason someone out of religious belief has limited success. Richard Dawkins claims some credit for turning some around from the fan mail he receives, and the rapid conversion we are seeing in the Western World now to non religious, may be to some degree as a result of his and others publications.

A recent news item in Australia dealt with the disturbing practice of religious nutters "praying the gay" out of homosexuals. Those being treated were told they were afflicted by demon possession and the remedy the expulsion thereof. The effects of this "treatment" was very harmful as reported, and I wonder in the wake of stories such as this, if the religious experience a wake up call?

Difficult to see what other weapons we have at our disposal in the fight, (the good fight), against religions.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:03 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Centering back on the subject matter of this thread, it would seem that most here agree, that trying to reason someone out of religious belief has limited success. Richard Dawkins claims some credit for turning some around from the fan mail he receives, and the rapid conversion we are seeing in the Western World now to non religious, may be to some degree as a result of his and others publications.

A recent news item in Australia dealt with the disturbing practice of religious nutters "praying the gay" out of homosexuals. Those being treated were told they were afflicted by demon possession and the remedy the expulsion thereof. The effects of this "treatment" was very harmful as reported, and I wonder in the wake of stories such as this, if the religious experience a wake up call?

Difficult to see what other weapons we have at our disposal in the fight, (the good fight), against religions.
Apathy and irrelevance?

My kids generation is significantly less religious than my generation. Many of my peers paid lip-service to the idea of god and and sort-of believed in god, but not so much that they'd consider it important (unlike their parents). A lot of my peers have had kids and they are the offspring of nominally Christian families, but where belief hardly plays any part - and that is also tempered with a belief in Father Christmas. Those kids aren't even bothering to say that they believe in god.
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:29 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Difficult to see what other weapons we have at our disposal in the fight, (the good fight), against religions.
Nip it in the bud . . .

“Provide some evidence your god actually exists or even might exist. If you can’t do that, provide a method by which your god could exist. If you can’t do that, provide some reason your god should exist. If you can’t do that you’ve nothing I’m interested in even considering, because you have nothing of any substance."
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Old 10th April 2018, 03:39 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
His point is that when your material needs aren't met, the "no evidence" thing might not bother you so much.
Desperation does make people irrational.
Having needs met fosters rationality.
I think there's a countervailing dynamic also, though. Someone who is focused on survival in probably going to take a pragmatic approach to those immediate concerns, and be casually agnostic about the rest of reality. It takes a pampered mind to really indulge in woo.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:44 PM   #216
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So you think that the children in Beslan taken hostage by Chechen rebels and fearing for their lives simply weren't focused enough and instead should have taken a more pragmatic approach. to the whole thing? You need a very pampered mind to come up with an idea like that!
If you have access to health care, you go to a doctor if you get AIDS - or even if you suspect that you might be infected with HIV. But what is the approach if you don't have health care? You may find that it's an unfocussed and pampered approach, but in reality it appears to be to go see a witchdoctor.
Poverty and the absence of health care are the best (and only) way to keep witchcraft alive! Education goes a long way, but even educated people tend to resort to magical thinking when science-based medicine gives up on them.
But they're just pampered and indulging, right?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th April 2018, 10:10 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It takes a pampered mind to really indulge in woo.
No, it doesn't. The opposite is true, actually. Religion is a crutch for the desperate, and rationality is a luxury affordable only to those who are safe.
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Old 10th April 2018, 10:31 PM   #218
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Centering back on the subject matter of this thread, it would seem that most here agree, that trying to reason someone out of religious belief has limited success. Richard Dawkins claims some credit for turning some around from the fan mail he receives, and the rapid conversion we are seeing in the Western World now to non religious, may be to some degree as a result of his and others publications.

A recent news item in Australia dealt with the disturbing practice of religious nutters "praying the gay" out of homosexuals. Those being treated were told they were afflicted by demon possession and the remedy the expulsion thereof. The effects of this "treatment" was very harmful as reported, and I wonder in the wake of stories such as this, if the religious experience a wake up call?

Difficult to see what other weapons we have at our disposal in the fight, (the good fight), against religions.
Start reading about the methodologies and theories used by social workers when engaging with humans, which "need" to have their behavior altered.

Here is the first thing that stands out: You treat other humans with respect and acceptance of them as humans. You never claim they are wrong, using any negative labeling of them and try to build trust.

How do you think a religious human would experience reading through enough of these threads to find out that she/he is evil, crazy, delusional, irrational and so on.
Treat all humans with the acceptance that we are humans. Don't degrade them and watch out for neurotypical thinking in your own behavior.

There are no evil/wrong humans and a behavior in another human, which you don't understand, doesn't mean that the other human is like you and also doesn't understand her/his own behavior.
Check out cognitive and moral/ethical relativism. You could start with Protagoras:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not."

With regard
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:52 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, it doesn't. The opposite is true, actually. Religion is a crutch for the desperate, and rationality is a luxury affordable only to those who are safe.
I agree, at least when it comes to the religious flavours of woo. I’m not looking forward to the day western societies become less pampered and safe as religions will surely raise their ugly heads again and many will be attracted to the “safety” and “protection” they “offer”. Death of loved ones is a great recruiter for religions. Suffering grief is hardly being pampered.
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos.
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

Last edited by ynot; 10th April 2018 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 11th April 2018, 12:07 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
How do you think a religious human would experience reading through enough of these threads to find out that she/he is evil, crazy, delusional, irrational and so on.
They wouldn't accept they are evil, crazy, delusional, irrational and so on, any more than non-religious humans accept they are evil, wicked, inferior, sinners as religious humans claim. The former wouldn't because they're belief blinded, the latter wouldn't because they're knowledge enlightened.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Treat all humans with the acceptance that we are humans. Don't degrade them and watch out for neurotypical thinking in your own behavior.
You mean like religious humans treat non-religious humans by attempting to degrade them as above and threatening them with eternal torture and much wailing and gnashing of teeth?
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Old 11th April 2018, 12:41 AM   #221
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
They wouldn't accept they are evil, crazy, delusional, irrational and so on, any more than non-religious humans accept they are evil, wicked, inferior, sinners as religious humans claim. The former wouldn't because they're belief blinded, the latter wouldn't because they're knowledge enlightened.


You mean like religious humans treat non-religious humans by attempting to degrade them as above and threatening them with eternal torture and much wailing and gnashing of teeth?
That is not unique to religion. Here is a variant in philosophy:
Quote:
...Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. An atom is itself, and so is the universe; neither can contradict its own identity; nor can a part contradict the whole. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/logic.html
If you are illogical, you are not in reality. I.e. you are in non-reality. The philosophical variant of "Hell".

So here it goes:
I answer that Ayn Rand is wrong. That is a contradiction, so now I am irrational and not in reality. So where am I?!!
Philosophy can be "used" to "band" humans from reality. That is not unique to religion.
So you better become an Objectivist and believe in Objectivism or you are not in reality. Yeah, right!!!

The idea that religion is unique in claiming control over reality and where humans are/will end is not some special feature of religion.
I can do that too:
You are wrong and in contradiction with reality, because you think/feel differently than me. It means that you are not in reality, because you are so far out, that you are so un-natural, that you are not a part of nature.

The ability to judge humans as "un-natural" either via God or some other nonsense is not unique to religion.
Not all crimes against humanity require religion and not all "wrong" behavior can be explained only using religion.
Religion is not an unique special negative. Religion is human behavior and not un-natural.

With regards
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Old 11th April 2018, 01:35 AM   #222
dann
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, it doesn't. The opposite is true, actually. Religion is a crutch for the desperate, and rationality is a luxury affordable only to those who are safe.

I totally agree, of course, but I always find it astonishing that tough-guy libertarians always put their skepticism or atheism down to their ability to focus and be pragmatic and never consider that their privileged position might have something to do with it.
In many ways it's similar to the baby boomers of the late 1960s, who consider their political activism against racism and imperialistic wars a result only of their own courage and decisiveness and not of the financial boom of the times, which secured them from having to worry much about their careers - unlike most young people nowadays.

However, I would never deny that some pampered minds actually do indulge in woo!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th April 2018, 01:43 AM   #223
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Death of loved ones is a great recruiter for religions.

And that's the one recruiter we can't do away with. However, it's usually comforting to the bereaved if they can tell themselves that their loved ones died after af long and happy life. In Danish we have an expression that's often used in this context: mæt af dage, 'satiated with days'.


ETA: I forgot that it exists in English as well - and in the Bible, of all places: Old and full of days!
I hope that I'll have reached that stage when I'm 140 years old!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th April 2018, 02:09 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Apathy and irrelevance?

My kids generation is significantly less religious than my generation. Many of my peers paid lip-service to the idea of god and and sort-of believed in god, but not so much that they'd consider it important (unlike their parents). A lot of my peers have had kids and they are the offspring of nominally Christian families, but where belief hardly plays any part - and that is also tempered with a belief in Father Christmas. Those kids aren't even bothering to say that they believe in god.

I agree that apathy towards religion, and an attitude that it is irrelevant works in our favour, but how to we promote this?

The above example I gave about the news item where "the gay is being prayed away" is, I think, a step in the right direction, and I would encourage news writers to dig out more stories like this. The more the religious are exposed to these injustices, perpetrated in the name of their religion, the more they must see how harmful the beliefs are.

Most will be dismissive of course, saying they don't believe in these kind of practices, but if we point out their own sacred texts are the anchor, they get uncomfortable. The degree of ignorance of the faithful, (of religious scripture), is often astounding.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:23 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Start reading about the methodologies and theories used by social workers when engaging with humans, which "need" to have their behavior altered.

Here is the first thing that stands out: You treat other humans with respect and acceptance of them as humans. You never claim they are wrong, using any negative labeling of them and try to build trust.

How do you think a religious human would experience reading through enough of these threads to find out that she/he is evil, crazy, delusional, irrational and so on.
Treat all humans with the acceptance that we are humans. Don't degrade them and watch out for neurotypical thinking in your own behavior.

There are no evil/wrong humans and a behavior in another human, which you don't understand, doesn't mean that the other human is like you and also doesn't understand her/his own behavior.
Check out cognitive and moral/ethical relativism. You could start with Protagoras:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not."

With regard

So it's Tommy the shrink now is it?

This may have escaped your attention but I am all about attacking ideas not people. If some folk are that precious, they cannot stand to see the nonsense they believe questioned, they are the ones in need of counselling.
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:26 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And that's the one recruiter we can't do away with. However, it's usually comforting to the bereaved if they can tell themselves that their loved ones died after af long and happy life. In Danish we have an expression that's often used in this context: mæt af dage, 'satiated with days'.


ETA: I forgot that it exists in English as well - and in the Bible, of all places: Old and full of days!
I hope that I'll have reached that stage when I'm 140 years old!
“Well they had a good innings” makes death more acceptable to most (even nasty atheists) as dying of old age is the expected way of nature. But for “not good innings” deaths (babies, toddlers, teenagers, and anyone not “old”.), religions offer a comforting, denial of reality belief package that many find too attractive to refuse. “Your loved one isn’t really dead, they’ve merely passed-over to a better place with all your other deceased loved ones, and they’re all waiting for you to join them there when you pass-over”.

Atheists aren’t prepared to prostitute reality for this comforting belief package and must accept death for what the current evidence says it is. It can be tough being and atheist, but it's self-honest.
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Old 11th April 2018, 04:30 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
That is not unique to religion.

<crap snipped>

With regards
Boy, you sure do run around in a debate like a chicken with it's head cut off!
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Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

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Old 11th April 2018, 10:31 PM   #228
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
“Well they had a good innings” makes death more acceptable to most (even nasty atheists) as dying of old age is the expected way of nature. But for “not good innings” deaths (babies, toddlers, teenagers, and anyone not “old”.), religions offer a comforting, denial of reality belief package that many find too attractive to refuse. “Your loved one isn’t really dead, they’ve merely passed-over to a better place with all your other deceased loved ones, and they’re all waiting for you to join them there when you pass-over”.

Atheists aren’t prepared to prostitute reality for this comforting belief package and must accept death for what the current evidence says it is. It can be tough being and atheist, but it's self-honest.

They sound like outstanding and extremely brave individuals, those atheists of yours! Or maybe they just sound smug. Could it be that they just never had something like that happen to them? Have you considered that you might find yourself in a situation one day where 'prostituting reality' would be the only way for you to cope? Where your loss is so great that you need 'this comforting belief package' (and it doesn't have to be a package; you can make one up like the child in Beslan)? Where's your compassion when you use descriptions like these?
We have a couple of Christians in our group, and they are excellent skeptics. They're the first to criticize weeping Madonnas and Creationism, and they would never consider criticizing other kinds of superstition for being unholy or unchristian.
On the other hand, we have a Danish atheist society that invited this guy to give a speech because, at one point, he also published a paper against astrology.
I sure as hell prefer our Christians to any racist atheist!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:58 PM   #229
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So it's Tommy the shrink now is it?

This may have escaped your attention but I am all about attacking ideas not people. If some folk are that precious, they cannot stand to see the nonsense they believe questioned, they are the ones in need of counselling.
Now here is what I don't get, you are reflected about how reality works and that includes that you know that humans who hold incorrect beliefs, must actually be aware with doubt that they hold incorrect beliefs and thus they don't really believe in their incorrect beliefs.
Now since you are reflected you know that the highlighted part is an idea/belief that you hold. You know, that ideas/beliefs that humans hold, are necessarily not correct and you are a skeptic, so off course you have check to determine if your idea/belief is correct, right?

Thor 2, what I am getting at is this. In general terms your idea/belief cover all humans including you and I. So your idea/belief is also applicable to you yourself. So have you checked, if it is possible to hold an incorrect idea without checking it and without being in doubt about it and thus really believe in an incorrect belief?
Have you checked?
Have you been skeptical and checked your own idea/belief?

I would like to know your evidence for your idea/belief, because to me, you are doing shrink work. It appears that you are saying something about how humans actually think and how they actually believe. How they actually are and not just the ideas that they hold.
So again:
Have you checked, if it is possible to hold an incorrect idea without checking it and without being in doubt about it and thus really believe in an incorrect belief?
You are saying something about humans as they are and not just the ideas/beliefs that they hold.
So I would like evidence.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:30 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They sound like outstanding and extremely brave individuals, those atheists of yours! Or maybe they just sound smug.
Don’t attribute my words to “they”. I’m not a member of any atheist group and I don’t speak for other atheists. It’s simply true that atheists don’t accept any emotionally comforting afterlife packages offered by religions, and therefore they have to accept and face the cold, hard reality of the finality of death.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Could it be that they just never had something like that happen to them? Have you considered that you might find yourself in a situation one day where 'prostituting reality' would be the only way for you to cope? Where your loss is so great that you need 'this comforting belief package' (and it doesn't have to be a package; you can make one up like the child in Beslan)?
Do you serious believe it’s possible that none of the millions of atheists around the world have ever experienced and suffered the same grief at the loss of loved ones that theists have? I assure you that in my 67 plus years I’ve had many such experiences and have never needed to prostitute reality in favour of religious or other paranormal beliefs to cope, and I don’t expect I ever will.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Where's your compassion when you use descriptions like these?
Why don’t you ask theists where their compassion is when they tell atheists they’re wicked, evil, inferior, sinners that are going to suffer an eternity of torture and suffering? My words are mild by comparison.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
We have a couple of Christians in our group, and they are excellent skeptics.
Your couple of Christian group members may be “excellent skeptics” in many matters, but they obviously aren’t when it comes to their own religious beliefs however.

I had a quick look at your skeptica group. Seems to concentrate mainly on alternative medicines with barely a mention of anything religious except a very brief mention of creationism. I may have lost a bit in translation, but I can’t see anything but the weakest form of skepticism I’ve ever seen anywhere. Your group seems to be more “Let’s all agree to disagree and get along nicely together”. Hardly what I’d call active skepticism.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
They're the first to criticize weeping Madonnas and Creationism, and they would never consider criticizing other kinds of superstition for being unholy or unchristian.
Why is believing in weeping Madonnas and Creationism any worse than unholy or unchristian superstitions?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
On the other hand, we have a Danish atheist society that invited this guy to give a speech because, at one point, he also published a paper against astrology.
Oh no! Not against Astrology! Oh the humanity! So what? Do you believe astrology isn’t a paranormal belief and is actually true and valid? Are you a theist as well?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I sure as hell prefer our Christians to any racist atheist!
Inviting a person to give a speech doesn’t mean you agree with that person or that person is a member of your group. It could merely mean you're open to hearing about all opinions and beliefs.

I have many Christian friends. I didn’t read enough of “this guy” to see if he is a racist atheist, but even if he is there are as many (if not more) racist theists out there.
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Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.

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Old 12th April 2018, 01:38 AM   #231
dann
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PS
Helmuth Nyborg, the guy who "has argued that white people tend to be more intelligent than blacks, that immigration from non-Western countries leads to a decline in the average intelligence of the receiving Western country, and that atheists tend to be more intelligent than religious people," (Wikipedia) may not have been invited to speak to the Danish Atheists because of his paper about astrology. It was probably a question of flattery, pure and simple: his idea that atheists have higher IQs than believers. And in his case, IQ doesn't simply measure how good you are at doing IQ tests. He firmly believes that it measures g, innate intelligence, which can't be improved in any way whatsoever, no matter how much education you receive! And when it is enhanced by education in the real world, he considers it a kind of cheating!
(I've collected several quotations from the guy in this article: How intelligent is the average IQ test designer? (Skeptic Report))
Somehow this kind of vanity seems to be a significant part of the "comforting belief package" of many atheists: that they are intellectually superior to believers!
In most respects they really aren't.

And you should face it, too: Is it really that much of an intellectual accomplishment to realize that there is no God? Or god?
It's pretty obvious that there isn't, and analytically it isn't harder to figure out that there is no god than to figure out that there is no Santa or Easter Bunny. But unlike those two fairytale creatures, the God delusion gives comfort to grown ups, which is the main difference.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th April 2018, 01:56 AM   #232
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don’t attribute my words to “they”. I’m not a member of any atheist group and I don’t speak for other atheists. It’s simply true that atheists don’t accept any emotionally comforting afterlife packages offered by religions, and therefore they have to accept and face the cold, hard reality of the finality of death.
And here we go: You don't speak for atheists, yet you do.
Quote:
It’s simply true that atheists don’t accept any emotionally comforting afterlife packages offered by religions, and therefore they have to accept and face the cold, hard reality of the finality of death.
That is speaking for all atheists, so you managed to contradict yourself in one paragraph. Further is not even true. I am atheist, yet I don't consider it a reality or fact that I am going to die. That is a metaphysical/transcendent belief. Now I believe I am going to die, but I don't know that. I am also a skeptic and I have no problem with claiming that I don't know anything about metaphysical/transcendent beliefs. Rather I believe in a natural world and not a supernatural world, but that is a belief. As a skeptic I don't claim that kind of knowledge.


Quote:
...

Why don’t you ask theists where their compassion is when they tell atheists they’re wicked, evil, inferior, sinners that are going to suffer an eternity of torture and suffering? My words are mild by comparison.

...
Why don't you ask e.g. some communists and not all, where their compassion is, when they want to send everybody else, who don't think like them, into reeducation camps.
Further there are theists, who accept that an atheist can be good and go to Heaven.
Again just like speaking on behalf of all atheists, you speak on behalf of all theists.
You are really good at just being you and at the same time speaking on behalf of all atheists and theists.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 02:04 AM   #233
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
PS
Helmuth Nyborg, the guy who "has argued that white people tend to be more intelligent than blacks, that immigration from non-Western countries leads to a decline in the average intelligence of the receiving Western country, and that atheists tend to be more intelligent than religious people," (Wikipedia) may not have been invited to speak to the Danish Atheists because of his paper about astrology. It was probably a question of flattery, pure and simple: his idea that atheists have higher IQs than believers. And in his case, IQ doesn't simply measure how good you are at doing IQ tests. He firmly believes that it measures g, innate intelligence, which can't be improved in any way whatsoever, no matter how much education you receive! And when it is enhanced by education in the real world, he considers it a kind of cheating!
(I've collected several quotations from the guy in this article: How intelligent is the average IQ test designer? (Skeptic Report))
Somehow this kind of vanity seems to be a significant part of the "comforting belief package" of many atheists: that they are intellectually superior to believers!
In most respects they really aren't.

And you should face it, too: Is it really that much of an intellectual accomplishment to realize that there is no God? Or god?
It's pretty obvious that there isn't, and analytically it isn't harder to figure out that there is no god than to figure out that there is no Santa or Easter Bunny. But unlike those two fairytale creatures, the God delusion gives comfort to grown ups, which is the main difference.
The similar delusion in some humans is, that intelligence makes a human better in a moral/life quality sense and thus an intelligent human is a better human and has a better life. That belief makes some people feel better and thus work as an intelligence delusion.
The strong version is that intelligent humans can't suffer from mental, psychological and psychiatric disorders.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 02:08 AM   #234
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Don’t attribute my words to “they”. I’m not a member of any atheist group and I don’t speak for other atheists. It’s simply true that atheists don’t accept any emotionally comforting afterlife packages offered by religions, and therefore they have to accept and face the cold, hard reality of the finality of death.

Aren't they brave, your atheists! Facing the "cold hard reality and finality of death", as if they were choosing to give up on an actual thing, an actual afterlife, and not simply realizing that it isn't there! It just isn't, just like the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Santa ...

Quote:
Do you serious believe it’s possible that none of the millions of atheists around the world have ever experienced and suffered the same grief at the loss of loved ones that theists have? I assure you that in my 67 plus years I’ve had many such experiences and have never needed to prostitute reality in favour of religious or other paranormal beliefs to cope, and I don’t expect I ever will.

And you've never 'prostituted reality in favour of non-religious beliefs? You've never believed, for instance, in the honesty of a politician who turned out to be ... well, very different from your expectations?

Quote:
Why don’t you ask theists where their compassion is when they tell atheists they’re wicked, evil, inferior, sinners that are going to suffer an eternity of torture and suffering? My words are mild by comparison.

Why on Earth do you think that I don't ask theists questions like that?! Why are you so obsessed with the idea that Christians and other believers are fundamentally bad?! (You are aware that some Christians are very compassionate and some atheists are right bastards, aren't you? Or is it part of your comforting package to deny that fact of life?!)

Quote:
Your couple of Christian group members may be “excellent skeptics” in many matters, but they obviously aren’t when it comes to their own religious beliefs however.

They seem to be so in every way as far as practical skepticism is concerned. I'm sorry that they don't live up to the comforting package that you have chosen to prostitute reality for. (You should consider why you feel the need to reduce them to my "couple of Christians"!)

Quote:
I had a quick look at your skeptica group. Seems to concentrate mainly on alternative medicines with barely a mention of anything religious except a very brief mention of creationism. I may have lost a bit in translation, but I can’t see anything but the weakest form of skepticism I’ve ever seen anywhere. Your group seems to be more “Let’s all agree to disagree and get along nicely together”. Hardly what I’d call active skepticism.

I guess you should take a longer look, then.

Quote:
Why is believing in weeping Madonnas and Creationism any worse than unholy or unchristian superstitions?

Did anybody claim that they were?!

Quote:
Oh no! Not against Astrology! Oh the humanity! So what? Do you believe astrology isn’t a paranormal belief and is actually true and valid? Are you a theist as well?

You lost me there! Why should I believe in astrology?! Isn't it fairly obvious that I'm not a theist?!
No, of course not. It appears to be part of your comforting package to deny the existence of irreligious skeptics who criticize your ideas.

Quote:
Inviting a person to give a speech doesn’t mean you agree with that person or that person is a member of your group. It could merely mean you're open to hearing about all opinions and beliefs.

Only it wasn't ...

Quote:
I have many Christian friends. I didn’t read enough of “this guy” to see if he is a racist atheist, but even if he is there are as many (if not more) racist theists out there.

I think you're right about this point, but you appear to be unable to see that my point isn't to prove that atheists are bad and Christians are good, or that atheists are racist and Christians aren't. The only reason why it seems to be that way to you is that you're hell bent on proving that atheists are intellectually and morally superior to Christians.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 02:21 AM   #235
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I had a quick look at your skeptica group. Seems to concentrate mainly on alternative medicines with barely a mention of anything religious except a very brief mention of creationism. I may have lost a bit in translation, but I can’t see anything but the weakest form of skepticism I’ve ever seen anywhere. Your group seems to be more “Let’s all agree to disagree and get along nicely together”. Hardly what I’d call active skepticism.

You are familiar with the no-true-Scotsman fallacy, aren't you?! The no-true-skeptic or no-true-atheist version isn't any better ...

It took me just a couple of minutes to find these articles at skeptica.dk. There are plenty more!

Om den kristne tro
Helbredelse ved forbøn?
Mirakler i Århus med Charles Ndifon
Biskop på afveje
Pavens undladelsessynder
Kampen om menneskets oprindelse

ETA: Boganmeldelse: Bedst af alle verdener. My own review of an anthology of articles by Danish skeptics. In the paragraph Dommedagskuller, I criticize a guy who argues that Jesus was a skeptic! I love to do Bible studies to prove Christians wrong!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th April 2018, 02:46 AM   #236
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Things like a sense of moral superiority and pride in intellectual honesty can serve as a substitute for the comfort of religious belief in times of extreme crisis.
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Old 12th April 2018, 03:25 AM   #237
dann
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Things like a sense of moral superiority and pride in intellectual honesty can serve as a substitute for the comfort of religious belief in times of extreme crisis.

And the rest of the time as well!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 03:32 AM   #238
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And the rest of the time as well!
The need/want to feel better than other humans are not unique to only religious humans.
Hell, neurotypical thinking/feeling/believing ("neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one or the only correct one") is properly found in a lot of humans across the difference between non-religious and religious humans.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 03:34 AM   #239
dann
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
The similar delusion in some humans is, that intelligence makes a human better in a moral/life quality sense and thus an intelligent human is a better human and has a better life. That belief makes some people feel better and thus work as an intelligence delusion.

Speaking of intelligence delusions (Snopes). (That one's really hilarious: It's not that Trump is dumb, we're just not intelligent enough to understand his genius!)

Quote:
The strong version is that intelligent humans can't suffer from mental, psychological and psychiatric disorders.

Now I feel like coming up with another Trump reference, but that would be a contradiction in terms in this case!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:07 AM   #240
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Speaking of intelligence delusions (Snopes). (That one's really hilarious: It's not that Trump is dumb, we're just not intelligent enough to understand his genius!)

...
I am not that intelligent, I sometimes falls prey to Dunning/Kruger and what not, but I have learned to catch and admit it, when I catch it. And over the years I have become better at intrapersonal intelligence/cognition.

Anecdotal story in part: I had to because I am a substance abuser and have a psychiatric disorder. My level of intrapersonal intelligence/cognition helps me cope, but it confused one of my psychiatrists. He said that I was crazy, yet I was not crazy, because I knew that I was crazy.
Now I don't know as an expert that I am crazy, but I do know that I have a psychiatric disorder because I have been diagnosed with one. The joke is that I and other "crazy" people, who can do that, don't fit the normal understanding of being "crazy" because we can individually spot our own behavior at least in some cases. And some of us learn in practice to spot it in some sense in other humans.

So here it is as a "joke" about bias. Once a group of normal humans were admitted to a psychiatric institution as a test. They were given false diagnoses and admitted to test if the staff could figure it out. The staff didn't catch it, because they understand all of the behavior of the normal humans as being "crazy", though all of normal humans behaved normally. The "punchline" is that some of the real patients could spot it.

With regard
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Last edited by Tommy Jeppesen; 12th April 2018 at 04:09 AM.
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