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12th April 2018, 07:11 AM | #241 |
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The patients could spot that the normal guys were normal, but the staff couldn't?!
Did they let them all out, or are some of them still there? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 07:36 AM | #242 |
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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12th April 2018, 08:44 AM | #243 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 09:03 AM | #244 |
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I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
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12th April 2018, 10:49 AM | #245 |
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Probably both, I guess, but I don't think that the phrase confirmation bias had been coined back in '73.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 12:40 PM | #246 |
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From what I understand, it (well, the aftermath) was key in the cultural shift within psychiatry away from psychoanalysis towards more strict psychopharmacology. "Paradigm disrupting", if you will.
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12th April 2018, 01:14 PM | #247 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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12th April 2018, 01:27 PM | #248 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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12th April 2018, 01:32 PM | #249 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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12th April 2018, 01:34 PM | #250 |
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The angry mob is so fired-up with prejudicial and willful misreading, misinterpreting and misquoting of my words I’m not even going to bother to respond as their counter responses would be just more of the same. Hard to have a meaningful and fair debate with an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks.
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12th April 2018, 01:37 PM | #251 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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12th April 2018, 01:57 PM | #252 |
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You said that they needed counselling - that is questioning their mental health. You called people "precious" - not beliefs, people. You do this sort of thing all the time.
Even if that is not intended as an attack, it will be interpreted as one. If you really want to avoid attacking people and focus on their beliefs, you need to moderate your language a lot more. I interrupted, and I apologise. I do hope you think about what I've said though. Please return to the conversation at hand, because it is an interesting one. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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12th April 2018, 02:14 PM | #253 |
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The old saw about there being no atheists in foxholes is not completely true, but it certainly has elements of truth. However there are types of Woo that attract the pampered worried well. Californian New Age is one obvious thing that springs to mind - but that is quite different to say Christianity after a few decades of the Black Death. The first is that everything is generally nice and fluffy and if you keep a sufficiently open mind (so open that your brain falls out) you can have some good happen to you that is often rather nebulous and ill defined. The latter is blaming the troubles on sin and saying that only those with a rigid adherence to the edicts of the Church will be spared, and that the solution is a more closed mind. |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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12th April 2018, 02:29 PM | #254 |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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12th April 2018, 04:21 PM | #255 |
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There’s a type of touchy-feely “Let’s be nice” atheist that’s predominately interested in being “nice” to theists. Seems they don’t like “nasty atheists” as they make them them look bad by association. They interpret attacks on theism as being attacks on theists every bit as much as many/most theists do. For some reason they seem happy for “nasty theists” to attack and threaten atheists however. Touchy-feely logic I guess.
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12th April 2018, 04:28 PM | #256 |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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12th April 2018, 04:45 PM | #257 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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12th April 2018, 04:49 PM | #258 |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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12th April 2018, 04:58 PM | #259 |
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Just have to respond to this “pitchfork in the foot” post . . .
Dann is saying it doesn’t take much intellect to realise and conclude there is no God or god. Dann is saying theists are less intellectual and more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs to gain emotional comfort. But when atheists say essentially the same thing dann says . . . Your own words agree that atheists are intellectually superior to theists/believers when it comes to God/god beliefs. I guess that makes you as "vain" and "smug" as those you criticise. |
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12th April 2018, 05:00 PM | #260 |
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Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
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12th April 2018, 05:06 PM | #261 |
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Ooops post . . .
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12th April 2018, 05:52 PM | #262 |
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Quote:
Quote:
You agree with him there, too. |
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12th April 2018, 06:01 PM | #263 |
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FTFY
"Less rational" = "less intellectual" therefore theists are less intellectual than atheists when it comes to their God/god beliefs. That doesn't say or even imply that theists are necessarily less intellectual in other areas of their lives. How many times and ways does it have to be said to be understood? Seems you didn't bother to read (or at least comprehend) my entire post in which I made it blatantly clear that dann is saying essentially exactly the same thing as I said and some other atheists say. Yet (s)he criticises us for saying it with accusations of us being "vain, smug, superior", etc. |
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12th April 2018, 06:59 PM | #264 |
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I can see why you're confused about my "ridicules outbursts": Believers "prostitute reality", unlike atheists, who "aren't prepared to prostitute reality" because they "accept death", follow "evidence" and are "tough" and "self-honest", which, of course, is not at all smug and self-congratulatory.
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which I have now repeated in this post. I hope that you're happy!
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Yes, I round it off with a jab at racist atheists, the organized atheists in my country, who were and still are so brave that I can no longer find a single reference online where they mention their invitation to racist Helmuth Nyborg to speak at one of their meetings. Ynot's excuse for inviting a racist to speak, "It could merely mean you're open to hearing about all opinions and beliefs," might have been correct if they had followed up on the meeting and distanced themselves from the ********, if they had been tough and self-honest enough to criticize him and openly admit that it was a mistake to provide him with a platform for his IQ racism (and sexism as well). But instead, they seem to prefer being in denial about the whole thing.
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No, I leave those tactics to you. Roll on ... |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 07:20 PM | #265 |
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"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
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12th April 2018, 07:42 PM | #266 |
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When the guy who praises the bravery of atheists decides to ignore the arguments against this delusion, it's obvious why they can't simply be arguments. He has to portray himself as being persecuted by "an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks." He also appears to think that this will make him look much braver when he starts cherry picking among the arguments: No, you don't really have to, but since you choose to, let's have a look at it:
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Yes, that is what I'm saying. This, however, is not:
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It requires a whole lot less intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief. Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, which is why I, unlike ynot, am not particularly proud of my achievement in this field. It required neither intellectual effort nor bravery. Why would it be an act of courage to give up on the idea that there's an omnipotent and omniscient guy in the sky who'll punish me when I die when absolutely nothing seems to indicate that this guy actually exists? It's about as courageous as giving up on the idea that there's a monster under my bed who'll devour me when I go to sleep. I also don't know how ynot comes up with the idea that I've said that theists are "more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs." Some atheists seem to be extremely emotional about this. However, it's true that the theists usually believe "to gain emotional comfort." They very often say so themselves, so it's no big secret.
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No, ynot is wrong again, but I'm grateful for his way of making it so obvious what his mistake is: To him it isn't simply a question of the very banal discovery that, no, there is no god. Since I don't pride myself at this discovery (It's just too easy to figure out for it to be something to be proud of!), I also feel no need to describe myself as "intellectually superior to theists/believers when it comes to God/god beliefs." It would feel childish to do so.
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No, you guess wrong - for the reason I've already explained several times by now. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 07:50 PM | #267 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 07:57 PM | #268 |
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This sure does feel boring for a witch hunt.
Honestly, I wish being atheists did give us intellectual sparkle ponies upstairs. I don't think I gained any IQ points when I left religion, though. |
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12th April 2018, 08:03 PM | #269 |
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I've highlighted the worst part of your strawman. Won't you please show us where somebody has said or implied that it's OK "to attack and threaten atheists"?! And if "nasty atheists" and "nasty theists" are actual quotations (from other people than you, that is!), won't you please supply us with link(s) to the post(s)? |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 08:05 PM | #270 |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th April 2018, 09:12 PM | #271 |
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I’m specifically talking about what influences some people to BECOME theists. I’m NOT talking about staying or giving up BEING a theist, and I have no idea why you seem to think I am. Please feel free to quote where I’ve said anything about anyone remaining or giving up being a theist.
I’ve never ever been a theist so how can I possibly be “proud of my achievement in this field (of giving up a god belief)’ when there hasn’t ever been any such thing for me to achieve? You said . . . YOU are clearly saying that believing in a god is more emotionally influenced (for emotional comfort) than intellectually. In fact YOU are saying even a small amount of intellectual “figuring out” easily concludes there is no god. Therefore YOU are saying to conclude there is a god one has to be more emotionally influenced than intellectually. So by YOUR words, theists are more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs. |
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12th April 2018, 09:17 PM | #272 |
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Me too. So what? I'm specifically talking about what influences some people to become theists. I'm not talking about theists lives outside of their their god beliefs. Are you saying you know some people that have become theists as a result of them being exceedingly "bright"?
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12th April 2018, 09:38 PM | #273 |
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12th April 2018, 10:01 PM | #274 |
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No, I don't have to combine reason with emotion. Generally speaking, I advise against it. Emotion has an observable damping effect on reasoning ability.
Wrong. I know you're not God with 0.9999... certainty. And don't bother lying to me about being God. I'll know you're lying with 0.9999... certainty. People who believe that have been wrong every morning since they started believing that. They'll be wrong tomorrow morning too. But they don't learn. One way I'm different from those I oppose is that I don't think we'll get a better world by believing God loves us so much that he arranged to have his only son tortured to death to prove how much he loves us, and if I don't believe that story, he will be compelled by his own nature to toss me into a lake of fire to be tortured forever. I lean more toward thinking that, if there is a real God, then believing that about him would more likely just insult him and maybe piss him off. Thanks. I would like to be treated as if I am right about everything, and anybody who doesn't see things my way will be tossed alive into a lake of fire where they will be unable to die forever. Right. So, if some fool is about to set off a bomb and blow us both up, I shouldn't tell him he's irrational. Instead, I should say something like, "I definitely follow your reasoning. What a way to go, right? Yee, haw! But setting off the bomb is such an all-in kind of move. You're trading all the fun you could have for the rest of your life for that one big moment of bliss when you squeeze the detonator. But if you stick around and have your fun a little at a time, you won't have as much fun all at once, but you could end up having a lot more total fun in the long run. I think that's the way I'd go." Is that violins I hear in the background? |
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13th April 2018, 12:33 AM | #275 |
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Sorry about the first sentence that you quote. It should have read "It requires a whole lot more intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief." Otherwise the continuation wouldn't make sense: "Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, ..." etc. So the whole paragraph should read like this:
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However, that being said, it requires even more intellectual effort to make the switch from athe- to the-ist. So whether staying a theist or converting to theism is what requires an effort. Staying an atheist or converting to atheism ... no, not really. For instance, I don't have to say an atheist prayer every morning when I wake up or every night when I go to bed in order to persuade myself that I believe in reality: 'I believe in reality and all of its ... (But then again: I've become more and more of an apatheist over the years so it also might just reflect on my laziness.
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You would have to ask yourself that question, not me: Why do you need to describe the difference between you and believers as one of intellectual superiority?
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But what I'm actually not saying is that theists are more "emotionally influenced" than atheists. Why does it comfort you to think so? Yes, I am actually saying that it requires no real intellectual effort to realize that there is no God, which, in contrast, means that it takes a lot of intellectual effort to persuade yourself (as well as others) that there is one (One?). So by MY words, I'm not saying what you would like me to be saying or to have said. Very early on, I referred to Phil Zuckerman and his book Society without God - What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment because it shows how most conversions from theism to atheism take place: People stop believing when they don't need to believe. Most converters don't have a big theological struggle with theism and the concept of reality that makes them give up on God. They forget about him when their living conditions improve to the stage where they don't need religion. Intellectual superiority? No, not really. Societal superiority might be a better description, but I don't really see why inferiority versus superiority has anything to do with this question. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th April 2018, 01:13 AM | #276 |
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An example:
This guy knows a hell of a lot more about biology in general and paleontology specifically than I do, which is not the point in this context. The point is that he has really made things difficult for himself, intellectually, by being not only a paleontologist, but also an Ecumenical Christian minister. I would never have been faced with the challenge of trying to reconcile Darwinian evolution with the Christian Bible, so I really have no excuse for not being a world-famous paleontologist instead of him. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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13th April 2018, 01:53 PM | #277 |
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All that stuff in italics doesn't change the fact that you went somewhat overboard in your ridiculous outburst answering ynot.
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As I read Helmuth was accused of racism but later acquitted. It would seem his work is to some extent aligned with that of Charles Murray, (co author of "The Bell Curve" I think), who was interviewed by Sam Harris. Are you among the many who condemned Harris as a racist because of this? |
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13th April 2018, 02:26 PM | #278 |
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Oh yes I agree with this, although I wonder if the stickiness of religious upbringing is less effective when the bright person matures, as compared to the dullard.
From Daniel Dennett's work in helping non believing clergy to exit the profession, we can take it as a given that many clergy have lost their faith. In the Catholic Church the theme that a priest is having trouble with their faith is a recurring one in books and movies. You also here Catholic clergy talking about a love of the church. Is this an alternative to a belief in the religious dogma and are these the bright ones? Like you I have never encountered a really bright person who went from agnostic/atheist/apatheist to "actual theist". Our own GDon claimed to done this ^ but he won't tell us about it although i asked him twice. |
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13th April 2018, 02:36 PM | #279 |
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That appears to be the general trend. My confirmation bias might be skewing my perception of my anecdotal "data collection" there, tho, maybe.
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13th April 2018, 03:25 PM | #280 |
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All that stuff in italics are quotations from ynot, who went somewhat overboard in his ridiculous outbursts about atheists and their alleged intellectual superiority.
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I don't worry much about kudos.
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Did I claim that he did? If that is the case, then I missed it.
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He was. It hasn't made the Nazis less fond of him, though.
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Aligned with?! Yes, I think it is.
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I am among those, many or few, who, at first, thought that the thread Legendary Comedy Duo: Harris and Murray was about an actual comedy duo and wondered why it didn't ring a bell (curve). |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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