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Old 12th April 2018, 07:11 AM   #241
dann
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The patients could spot that the normal guys were normal, but the staff couldn't?!
Did they let them all out, or are some of them still there?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:36 AM   #242
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The patients could spot that the normal guys were normal, but the staff couldn't?!
Did they let them all out, or are some of them still there?
It was a professor in psychology, who got some of his students to volunteer. So yes, they are out.
If I recall right it was a study about confirmation bias. It has been years since I read about it.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 08:44 AM   #243
dann
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Found it! (Duluth Reader, May 21, 2015)
1973, those were the days ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th April 2018 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 12th April 2018, 09:03 AM   #244
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Found it! (Duluth Reader, May 21, 2015)
1973, those were the days ...
Good find. So it wasn't about confirmation bias as such. It was anti-psychiatry more broadly. See, memory is not always to be trusted.

With regard
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:49 AM   #245
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Probably both, I guess, but I don't think that the phrase confirmation bias had been coined back in '73.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 12:40 PM   #246
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From what I understand, it (well, the aftermath) was key in the cultural shift within psychiatry away from psychoanalysis towards more strict psychopharmacology. "Paradigm disrupting", if you will.
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:14 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
“Well they had a good innings” makes death more acceptable to most (even nasty atheists) as dying of old age is the expected way of nature. But for “not good innings” deaths (babies, toddlers, teenagers, and anyone not “old”.), religions offer a comforting, denial of reality belief package that many find too attractive to refuse. “Your loved one isn’t really dead, they’ve merely passed-over to a better place with all your other deceased loved ones, and they’re all waiting for you to join them there when you pass-over”.

Atheists aren’t prepared to prostitute reality for this comforting belief package and must accept death for what the current evidence says it is. It can be tough being and atheist, but it's self-honest.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
They sound like outstanding and extremely brave individuals, those atheists of yours! Or maybe they just sound smug. Could it be that they just never had something like that happen to them? Have you considered that you might find yourself in a situation one day where 'prostituting reality' would be the only way for you to cope? Where your loss is so great that you need 'this comforting belief package' (and it doesn't have to be a package; you can make one up like the child in Beslan)? Where's your compassion when you use descriptions like these?
We have a couple of Christians in our group, and they are excellent skeptics. They're the first to criticize weeping Madonnas and Creationism, and they would never consider criticizing other kinds of superstition for being unholy or unchristian.
On the other hand, we have a Danish atheist society that invited this guy to give a speech because, at one point, he also published a paper against astrology.
I sure as hell prefer our Christians to any racist atheist!

What is there in ynot's post to prompt this ridicules outburst?

Sarcastic reference to brave atheists at the beginning, and you round it of with a jab about racist atheists. Are you reading stuff from between the lines of ynot's post perhaps?
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If some folk are that precious, they cannot stand to see the nonsense they believe questioned, they are the ones in need of counselling.
You're calling people "precious", saying that they believe nonsense, and questioning their mental health. Can't you see how that can be interpreted as attacking people rather than their belief?
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:32 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
So it's Tommy the shrink now is it?

This may have escaped your attention but I am all about attacking ideas not people. If some folk are that precious, they cannot stand to see the nonsense they believe questioned, they are the ones in need of counselling.
Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Now here is what I don't get, you are reflected about how reality works and that includes that you know that humans who hold incorrect beliefs, must actually be aware with doubt that they hold incorrect beliefs and thus they don't really believe in their incorrect beliefs.

.......

More convoluted crap.

.......

You are saying something about humans as they are and not just the ideas/beliefs that they hold.
So I would like evidence.

With regard

Your highlighted sentence is a real doozy. "..... they don't really believe in their incorrect beliefs."

What you haven't done is addressed the content of my post that you responded to.
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:34 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What is there in ynot's post to prompt this ridicules outburst?

Sarcastic reference to brave atheists at the beginning, and you round it of with a jab about racist atheists. Are you reading stuff from between the lines of ynot's post perhaps?
The angry mob is so fired-up with prejudicial and willful misreading, misinterpreting and misquoting of my words I’m not even going to bother to respond as their counter responses would be just more of the same. Hard to have a meaningful and fair debate with an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks.
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:37 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You're calling people "precious", saying that they believe nonsense, and questioning their mental health. Can't you see how that can be interpreted as attacking people rather than their belief?

I did not question their mental health and no I am just questioning beliefs not "attacking people."
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Old 12th April 2018, 01:57 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I did not question their mental health and no I am just questioning beliefs not "attacking people."
You said that they needed counselling - that is questioning their mental health. You called people "precious" - not beliefs, people. You do this sort of thing all the time.

Even if that is not intended as an attack, it will be interpreted as one. If you really want to avoid attacking people and focus on their beliefs, you need to moderate your language a lot more.

I interrupted, and I apologise. I do hope you think about what I've said though. Please return to the conversation at hand, because it is an interesting one.
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Old 12th April 2018, 02:14 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think there's a countervailing dynamic also, though. Someone who is focused on survival in probably going to take a pragmatic approach to those immediate concerns, and be casually agnostic about the rest of reality. It takes a pampered mind to really indulge in woo.
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, it doesn't. The opposite is true, actually. Religion is a crutch for the desperate, and rationality is a luxury affordable only to those who are safe.
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I agree, at least when it comes to the religious flavours of woo. I’m not looking forward to the day western societies become less pampered and safe as religions will surely raise their ugly heads again and many will be attracted to the “safety” and “protection” they “offer”. Death of loved ones is a great recruiter for religions. Suffering grief is hardly being pampered.

The old saw about there being no atheists in foxholes is not completely true, but it certainly has elements of truth.

However there are types of Woo that attract the pampered worried well.

Californian New Age is one obvious thing that springs to mind - but that is quite different to say Christianity after a few decades of the Black Death.


The first is that everything is generally nice and fluffy and if you keep a sufficiently open mind (so open that your brain falls out) you can have some good happen to you that is often rather nebulous and ill defined.
The latter is blaming the troubles on sin and saying that only those with a rigid adherence to the edicts of the Church will be spared, and that the solution is a more closed mind.
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Old 12th April 2018, 02:29 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You said that they needed counselling - that is questioning their mental health. You called people "precious" - not beliefs, people. You do this sort of thing all the time.

Even if that is not intended as an attack, it will be interpreted as one. If you really want to avoid attacking people and focus on their beliefs, you need to moderate your language a lot more.

I interrupted, and I apologise. I do hope you think about what I've said though. Please return to the conversation at hand, because it is an interesting one.

Tis a long bow you draw here arth.

Believers in woo shouldn't take it as a personal insult if I attack the woo. If they do it's their problem not mine. Not all people who need counselling are mentally ill either so that's a rather blunt barb.
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:21 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Tis a long bow you draw here arth.

Believers in woo shouldn't take it as a personal insult if I attack the woo. If they do it's their problem not mine. Not all people who need counselling are mentally ill either so that's a rather blunt barb.
There’s a type of touchy-feely “Let’s be nice” atheist that’s predominately interested in being “nice” to theists. Seems they don’t like “nasty atheists” as they make them them look bad by association. They interpret attacks on theism as being attacks on theists every bit as much as many/most theists do. For some reason they seem happy for “nasty theists” to attack and threaten atheists however. Touchy-feely logic I guess.
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Last edited by ynot; 12th April 2018 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:28 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
There’s a type of weak “Let’s be nice” atheist that’s predominately interested in being “nice” to theists. Seems they don’t like “nasty atheists” as they make them them look bad by association.
Do you pride yourself on being a nasty sort of atheist as opposed to a "weak", nice one?

Do you think it's possible to be nice without being weak?
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:45 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you pride yourself on being a nasty sort of atheist as opposed to a "weak", nice one?

Do you think it's possible to be nice without being weak?
Before you posted I changed "weak" to "touchy-feely" (but "weak" will do).

I don't accept that I am a nasty atheist, that's a label others pin on me and other atheists that don't conform to their particular touchy-feely level of "nice".
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:49 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Before you posted I changed "weak" to "touchy-feely" (but "weak" will do).

I don't accept that I am a nasty atheist, that's a label others pin on me and other atheists that don't conform to their particular touchy-feely level of "nice".
Do you understand that nobody in this thread pinned that on you?
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Old 12th April 2018, 04:58 PM   #259
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Just have to respond to this “pitchfork in the foot” post . . .
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is it really that much of an intellectual accomplishment to realize that there is no God? Or god?
It's pretty obvious that there isn't, and analytically it isn't harder to figure out that there is no god than to figure out that there is no Santa or Easter Bunny.
Dann is saying it doesn’t take much intellect to realise and conclude there is no God or god.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
But unlike those two fairytale creatures, the God delusion gives comfort to grown ups, which is the main difference.
Dann is saying theists are less intellectual and more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs to gain emotional comfort.

But when atheists say essentially the same thing dann says . . .
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Somehow this kind of vanity seems to be a significant part of the "comforting belief package" of many atheists: that they are intellectually superior to believers!
Your own words agree that atheists are intellectually superior to theists/believers when it comes to God/god beliefs. I guess that makes you as "vain" and "smug" as those you criticise.
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Old 12th April 2018, 05:00 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you understand that nobody in this thread pinned that on you?
Not in those exact words perhaps. But in many other words that essentially mean the same thing.
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Old 12th April 2018, 05:06 PM   #261
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Ooops post . . .
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Old 12th April 2018, 05:52 PM   #262
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Quote:
Dann is saying it doesn’t take much intellect to realise and conclude there is no God or god.
Do you really disagree?

Quote:
Dann is saying theists are less intellectual and more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs to gain emotional comfort.
Dann is saying people (adults) who don't have their basic needs met are more emotional and less rational than those who do.
You agree with him there, too.
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Old 12th April 2018, 06:01 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you really disagree?

Dann is saying people (adults) who don't have their basic emotional needs met are more emotional and less rational than those who do.
You agree with him there, too.
FTFY

"Less rational" = "less intellectual" therefore theists are less intellectual than atheists when it comes to their God/god beliefs. That doesn't say or even imply that theists are necessarily less intellectual in other areas of their lives. How many times and ways does it have to be said to be understood?

Seems you didn't bother to read (or at least comprehend) my entire post in which I made it blatantly clear that dann is saying essentially exactly the same thing as I said and some other atheists say. Yet (s)he criticises us for saying it with accusations of us being "vain, smug, superior", etc.
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Old 12th April 2018, 06:59 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What is there in ynot's post to prompt this ridicules outburst?

I can see why you're confused about my "ridicules outbursts":
Believers "prostitute reality", unlike atheists, who "aren't prepared to prostitute reality" because they "accept death", follow "evidence" and are "tough" and "self-honest", which, of course, is not at all smug and self-congratulatory.

Quote:
Sarcastic reference to brave atheists at the beginning,

which I have now repeated in this post. I hope that you're happy!

Quote:
and you round it of with a jab about racist atheists.

Yes, I round it off with a jab at racist atheists, the organized atheists in my country, who were and still are so brave that I can no longer find a single reference online where they mention their invitation to racist Helmuth Nyborg to speak at one of their meetings. Ynot's excuse for inviting a racist to speak, "It could merely mean you're open to hearing about all opinions and beliefs," might have been correct if they had followed up on the meeting and distanced themselves from the ********, if they had been tough and self-honest enough to criticize him and openly admit that it was a mistake to provide him with a platform for his IQ racism (and sexism as well). But instead, they seem to prefer being in denial about the whole thing.

Quote:
Are you reading stuff from between the lines of ynot's post perhaps?

No, I leave those tactics to you.
Roll on ...
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:20 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
FTFY

"Less rational" = "less intellectual"
Naw. I know some 100% rational people who are "dull" (for lack of a better word), and some highly, exceedingly "bright", intellectual theists.
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:42 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The angry mob is so fired-up with prejudicial and willful misreading, misinterpreting and misquoting of my words I’m not even going to bother to respond as their counter responses would be just more of the same. Hard to have a meaningful and fair debate with an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks.

When the guy who praises the bravery of atheists decides to ignore the arguments against this delusion, it's obvious why they can't simply be arguments. He has to portray himself as being persecuted by "an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks."
He also appears to think that this will make him look much braver when he starts cherry picking among the arguments:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Just have to respond to this “pitchfork in the foot” post . . .

No, you don't really have to, but since you choose to, let's have a look at it:

Quote:
Dann is saying it doesn’t take much intellect to realise and conclude there is no God or god.

Yes, that is what I'm saying.
This, however, is not:

Quote:
Dann is saying theists are less intellectual and more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs to gain emotional comfort.

It requires a whole lot less intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief. Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, which is why I, unlike ynot, am not particularly proud of my achievement in this field. It required neither intellectual effort nor bravery. Why would it be an act of courage to give up on the idea that there's an omnipotent and omniscient guy in the sky who'll punish me when I die when absolutely nothing seems to indicate that this guy actually exists? It's about as courageous as giving up on the idea that there's a monster under my bed who'll devour me when I go to sleep.
I also don't know how ynot comes up with the idea that I've said that theists are "more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs." Some atheists seem to be extremely emotional about this. However, it's true that the theists usually believe "to gain emotional comfort." They very often say so themselves, so it's no big secret.

Quote:
But when atheists say essentially the same thing dann says . . .

Your own words agree that atheists are intellectually superior to theists/believers when it comes to God/god beliefs.

No, ynot is wrong again, but I'm grateful for his way of making it so obvious what his mistake is: To him it isn't simply a question of the very banal discovery that, no, there is no god. Since I don't pride myself at this discovery (It's just too easy to figure out for it to be something to be proud of!), I also feel no need to describe myself as "intellectually superior to theists/believers when it comes to God/god beliefs." It would feel childish to do so.

Quote:
I guess that makes you as "vain" and "smug" as those you criticise.

No, you guess wrong - for the reason I've already explained several times by now.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:50 PM   #267
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This is how it's described when ynot chooses to ignore several posts:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The angry mob is so fired-up with prejudicial and willful misreading, misinterpreting and misquoting of my words I’m not even going to bother to respond as their counter responses would be just more of the same. Hard to have a meaningful and fair debate with an angry mob waving burning torches and pitchforks.

And this is how it's described when he is offended because somebody allegedly ignored part of one of his posts:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
[hilite]Seems you didn't bother to read (or at least comprehend) my entire post in which I made it blatantly clear that dann is saying essentially exactly the same thing as I said and some other atheists say. Yet (s)he criticises us for saying it with accusations of us being "vain, smug, superior", etc.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 07:57 PM   #268
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This sure does feel boring for a witch hunt.

Honestly, I wish being atheists did give us intellectual sparkle ponies upstairs. I don't think I gained any IQ points when I left religion, though.
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Old 12th April 2018, 08:03 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
There’s a type of touchy-feely “Let’s be nice” atheist that’s predominately interested in being “nice” to theists. Seems they don’t like “nasty atheists” as they make them them look bad by association. They interpret attacks on theism as being attacks on theists every bit as much as many/most theists do. For some reason they seem happy for “nasty theists” to attack and threaten atheists however. Touchy-feely logic I guess.

I've highlighted the worst part of your strawman. Won't you please show us where somebody has said or implied that it's OK "to attack and threaten atheists"?! And if "nasty atheists" and "nasty theists" are actual quotations (from other people than you, that is!), won't you please supply us with link(s) to the post(s)?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 08:05 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This sure does feel boring for a witch hunt.

Honestly, I wish being atheists did give us intellectual sparkle ponies upstairs. I don't think I gained any IQ points when I left religion, though.

Make yourself comfortable, lean back and bask in your intellectual superiority! That's the way to do it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th April 2018, 09:12 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It requires a whole lot less intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief. Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, which is why I, unlike ynot, am not particularly proud of my achievement in this field. It required neither intellectual effort nor bravery. Why would it be an act of courage to give up on the idea that there's an omnipotent and omniscient guy in the sky who'll punish me when I die when absolutely nothing seems to indicate that this guy actually exists? It's about as courageous as giving up on the idea that there's a monster under my bed who'll devour me when I go to sleep.
I’m specifically talking about what influences some people to BECOME theists. I’m NOT talking about staying or giving up BEING a theist, and I have no idea why you seem to think I am. Please feel free to quote where I’ve said anything about anyone remaining or giving up being a theist.

I’ve never ever been a theist so how can I possibly be “proud of my achievement in this field (of giving up a god belief)’ when there hasn’t ever been any such thing for me to achieve?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I also don't know how ynot comes up with the idea that I've said that theists are "more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs." Some atheists seem to be extremely emotional about this. However, it's true that the theists usually believe "to gain emotional comfort." They very often say so themselves, so it's no big secret.
You said . . .
Originally Posted by dann View Post
and analytically it isn't harder to figure out that there is no god than to figure out that there is no Santa or Easter Bunny. But unlike those two fairytale creatures, the God delusion gives comfort to grown ups, which is the main difference.
YOU are clearly saying that believing in a god is more emotionally influenced (for emotional comfort) than intellectually. In fact YOU are saying even a small amount of intellectual “figuring out” easily concludes there is no god. Therefore YOU are saying to conclude there is a god one has to be more emotionally influenced than intellectually. So by YOUR words, theists are more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs.
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Last edited by ynot; 12th April 2018 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 12th April 2018, 09:17 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Naw. I know some 100% rational people who are "dull" (for lack of a better word), and some highly, exceedingly "bright", intellectual theists.
Me too. So what? I'm specifically talking about what influences some people to become theists. I'm not talking about theists lives outside of their their god beliefs. Are you saying you know some people that have become theists as a result of them being exceedingly "bright"?
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Old 12th April 2018, 09:38 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Me too. So what? I'm specifically talking about what influences some people to become theists. I'm not talking about theists lives outside of their their god beliefs. Are you saying you know some people that have become theists as a result of them being exceedingly "bright"?
Oh, no. Bright people can be indoctrinated into theism in a way that sticks, but I've never encountered a really bright person who went from agnostic/atheist/apatheist to "actual theist" (I'm excluding "theisms" like pantheism) as an adult.
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Old 12th April 2018, 10:01 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes, in the sense that reason is sterile and you have to combine it with emotions..
No, I don't have to combine reason with emotion. Generally speaking, I advise against it. Emotion has an observable damping effect on reasoning ability.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Okay, skepticism on skepticism. We can't really in principle know if I am God, therefore I am God.
Wrong. I know you're not God with 0.9999... certainty.

And don't bother lying to me about being God. I'll know you're lying with 0.9999... certainty.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
In practice gravity and subjective morality/ethics are equally certain, absolute and what not, yet of course the induction problem means that tomorrow the universe will stop existing.
People who believe that have been wrong every morning since they started believing that.

They'll be wrong tomorrow morning too. But they don't learn.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You want a better world, right?!!! Then start treating everybody different from you as wrong even in the non-moral sense and point out that only you and your "we" can decide right and wrong. And then you are no different that those you oppose.
One way I'm different from those I oppose is that I don't think we'll get a better world by believing God loves us so much that he arranged to have his only son tortured to death to prove how much he loves us, and if I don't believe that story, he will be compelled by his own nature to toss me into a lake of fire to be tortured forever.

I lean more toward thinking that, if there is a real God, then believing that about him would more likely just insult him and maybe piss him off.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes, religious humans can be dangerous, yet they are also humans and if you start treating them in effect in a derogatory way you increase the chance of you and others getting hurt. Treat them as humans, as you would like to be treated.
Thanks. I would like to be treated as if I am right about everything, and anybody who doesn't see things my way will be tossed alive into a lake of fire where they will be unable to die forever.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Do you like be called irrational or wrong? No, then don't use words, which can offend.
Right. So, if some fool is about to set off a bomb and blow us both up, I shouldn't tell him he's irrational. Instead, I should say something like, "I definitely follow your reasoning. What a way to go, right? Yee, haw! But setting off the bomb is such an all-in kind of move. You're trading all the fun you could have for the rest of your life for that one big moment of bliss when you squeeze the detonator. But if you stick around and have your fun a little at a time, you won't have as much fun all at once, but you could end up having a lot more total fun in the long run. I think that's the way I'd go."

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You believe differently that me. I accept that. I am just pointing out that all humans are humans and nobody has the upper hand on others with reason, logic and evidence when it comes to morality or what reality really is.

What religious humans do, is natural and they are humans.
We are equal as humans and different as individuals.
Is that violins I hear in the background?
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Old 13th April 2018, 12:33 AM   #275
dann
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I’m specifically talking about what influences some people to BECOME theists. I’m NOT talking about staying or giving up BEING a theist, and I have no idea why you seem to think I am. Please feel free to quote where I’ve said anything about anyone remaining or giving up being a theist.

Sorry about the first sentence that you quote. It should have read "It requires a whole lot more intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief." Otherwise the continuation wouldn't make sense: "Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, ..." etc.
So the whole paragraph should read like this:
Quote:
It requires a whole lot more intellectual effort to stay a theist than to give up the belief. Realizing that there is no God isn't intellectually difficult, which is why I, unlike ynot, am not particularly proud of my achievement in this field. It required neither intellectual effort nor bravery. Why would it be an act of courage to give up on the idea that there's an omnipotent and omniscient guy in the sky who'll punish me when I die when absolutely nothing seems to indicate that this guy actually exists? It's about as courageous as giving up on the idea that there's a monster under my bed who'll devour me when I go to sleep.

However, that being said, it requires even more intellectual effort to make the switch from athe- to the-ist. So whether staying a theist or converting to theism is what requires an effort. Staying an atheist or converting to atheism ... no, not really. For instance, I don't have to say an atheist prayer every morning when I wake up or every night when I go to bed in order to persuade myself that I believe in reality: 'I believe in reality and all of its ...
(But then again: I've become more and more of an apatheist over the years so it also might just reflect on my laziness.


Quote:
I’ve never ever been a theist so how can I possibly be “proud of my achievement in this field (of giving up a god belief)’ when there hasn’t ever been any such thing for me to achieve?

You would have to ask yourself that question, not me: Why do you need to describe the difference between you and believers as one of intellectual superiority?

Quote:
You said . . .

YOU are clearly saying that believing in a god is more emotionally influenced (for emotional comfort) than intellectually. In fact YOU are saying even a small amount of intellectual “figuring out” easily concludes there is no god. Therefore YOU are saying to conclude there is a god one has to be more emotionally influenced than intellectually. So by YOUR words, theists are more emotional than atheists regarding god beliefs.
I just love when you tell me what I am saying!
But what I'm actually not saying is that theists are more "emotionally influenced" than atheists. Why does it comfort you to think so?
Yes, I am actually saying that it requires no real intellectual effort to realize that there is no God, which, in contrast, means that it takes a lot of intellectual effort to persuade yourself (as well as others) that there is one (One?). So by MY words, I'm not saying what you would like me to be saying or to have said.

Very early on, I referred to Phil Zuckerman and his book Society without God - What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment because it shows how most conversions from theism to atheism take place: People stop believing when they don't need to believe. Most converters don't have a big theological struggle with theism and the concept of reality that makes them give up on God. They forget about him when their living conditions improve to the stage where they don't need religion. Intellectual superiority? No, not really. Societal superiority might be a better description, but I don't really see why inferiority versus superiority has anything to do with this question.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:13 AM   #276
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An example:
This guy knows a hell of a lot more about biology in general and paleontology specifically than I do, which is not the point in this context. The point is that he has really made things difficult for himself, intellectually, by being not only a paleontologist, but also an Ecumenical Christian minister.
I would never have been faced with the challenge of trying to reconcile Darwinian evolution with the Christian Bible, so I really have no excuse for not being a world-famous paleontologist instead of him.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th April 2018, 01:53 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I can see why you're confused about my "ridicules outbursts":
Believers "prostitute reality", unlike atheists, who "aren't prepared to prostitute reality" because they "accept death", follow "evidence" and are "tough" and "self-honest", which, of course, is not at all smug and self-congratulatory.
All that stuff in italics doesn't change the fact that you went somewhat overboard in your ridiculous outburst answering ynot.



Quote:
which I have now repeated in this post. I hope that you're happy!
This kind of silly taunt doesn't increase your kudos you know.



Quote:
Yes, I round it off with a jab at racist atheists, the organized atheists in my country, who were and still are so brave that I can no longer find a single reference online where they mention their invitation to racist Helmuth Nyborg to speak at one of their meetings. Ynot's excuse for inviting a racist to speak, "It could merely mean you're open to hearing about all opinions and beliefs," might have been correct if they had followed up on the meeting and distanced themselves from the ********, if they had been tough and self-honest enough to criticize him and openly admit that it was a mistake to provide him with a platform for his IQ racism (and sexism as well). But instead, they seem to prefer being in denial about the whole thing.
Did ynot make any mention of support for Helmuth Nyborg? If he did I missed it.

As I read Helmuth was accused of racism but later acquitted. It would seem his work is to some extent aligned with that of Charles Murray, (co author of "The Bell Curve" I think), who was interviewed by Sam Harris.

Are you among the many who condemned Harris as a racist because of this?
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:26 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Oh, no. Bright people can be indoctrinated into theism in a way that sticks, but I've never encountered a really bright person who went from agnostic/atheist/apatheist to "actual theist" (I'm excluding "theisms" like pantheism) as an adult.
Oh yes I agree with this, although I wonder if the stickiness of religious upbringing is less effective when the bright person matures, as compared to the dullard.

From Daniel Dennett's work in helping non believing clergy to exit the profession, we can take it as a given that many clergy have lost their faith. In the Catholic Church the theme that a priest is having trouble with their faith is a recurring one in books and movies. You also here Catholic clergy talking about a love of the church. Is this an alternative to a belief in the religious dogma and are these the bright ones?

Like you I have never encountered a really bright person who went from agnostic/atheist/apatheist to "actual theist". Our own GDon claimed to done this ^ but he won't tell us about it although i asked him twice.
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Old 13th April 2018, 02:36 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh yes I agree with this, although I wonder if the stickiness of religious upbringing is less effective when the bright person matures, as compared to the dullard.
That appears to be the general trend. My confirmation bias might be skewing my perception of my anecdotal "data collection" there, tho, maybe.

Quote:
From Daniel Dennett's work in helping non believing clergy to exit the profession, we can take it as a given that many clergy have lost their faith. In the Catholic Church the theme that a priest is having trouble with their faith is a recurring one in books and movies. You also here Catholic clergy talking about a love of the church. Is this an alternative to a belief in the religious dogma and are these the bright ones?
Yes. It also seems that people (in the West, at least) raised with less dogmatic types of theisms have an easier time of fitting their personal theology around the world as it generally exists.
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Old 13th April 2018, 03:25 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
All that stuff in italics doesn't change the fact that you went somewhat overboard in your ridiculous outburst answering ynot.

All that stuff in italics are quotations from ynot, who went somewhat overboard in his ridiculous outbursts about atheists and their alleged intellectual superiority.

Quote:
This kind of silly taunt doesn't increase your kudos you know.

I don't worry much about kudos.

Quote:
Did ynot make any mention of support for Helmuth Nyborg? If he did I missed it.

Did I claim that he did? If that is the case, then I missed it.

Quote:
As I read Helmuth was accused of racism but later acquitted.

He was. It hasn't made the Nazis less fond of him, though.

Quote:
It would seem his work is to some extent aligned with that of Charles Murray, (co author of "The Bell Curve" I think), who was interviewed by Sam Harris.

Aligned with?! Yes, I think it is.

Quote:
Are you among the many who condemned Harris as a racist because of this?

I am among those, many or few, who, at first, thought that the thread Legendary Comedy Duo: Harris and Murray was about an actual comedy duo and wondered why it didn't ring a bell (curve).
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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