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Old 13th April 2018, 05:55 PM   #281
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Believers in woo shouldn't take it as a personal insult if I attack the woo. If they do it's their problem not mine.
You don't get to decide that.
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Old 13th April 2018, 06:40 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Believers in woo shouldn't take it as a personal insult if I attack the woo. If they do it's their problem not mine.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't get to decide that.

Aw ...... can't I. You get to decide if guys like ynot and I are not being nice enough to theists however.
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Old 13th April 2018, 11:18 PM   #283
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Oh, man! Arthwollipot recommended that Thor 2 stops using ad homs when talking about believers:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You said that they needed counselling - that is questioning their mental health. You called people "precious" - not beliefs, people. You do this sort of thing all the time.

Even if that is not intended as an attack, it will be interpreted as one. If you really want to avoid attacking people and focus on their beliefs, you need to moderate your language a lot more.

I interrupted, and I apologise. I do hope you think about what I've said though. Please return to the conversation at hand, because it is an interesting one.

Thor 2 pretends that his ad-hom attacks aren’t ad homs:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Believers in woo shouldn't take it as a personal insult if I attack the woo. If they do it's their problem not mine. Not all people who need counselling are mentally ill either so that's a rather blunt barb.

And ynot backs him up with one of his many fabrications:

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
There’s a type of touchy-feely “Let’s be nice” atheist that’s predominately interested in being “nice” to theists. Seems they don’t like “nasty atheists” as they make them them look bad by association. They interpret attacks on theism as being attacks on theists every bit as much as many/most theists do. For some reason they seem happy for “nasty theists” to attack and threaten atheists however. Touchy-feely logic I guess.

So we go from arthwollipot recommending that atheists criticize the belief rather than the believer to the claim that all he wants to do is ”be nice” to theists. So now Thor 2 repeats ynot’s strawman as if that was what arthwollipot actually said: It’s all about ”being nice” to theists:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Aw ...... can't I. You get to decide if guys like ynot and I are not being nice enough to theists however.

Their strategy appears to be much like the one employed by Trump: Make up strawmen and repeat them long enough for people to believe that that’s what your critics actually said.
And avoid answering questions at all costs! In particular when somebody shows what you're doing! Whining about being unfairly attacked is also one of Trump's favorite strategies.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Won't you please show us where somebody has said or implied that it's OK "to attack and threaten atheists"?! And if "nasty atheists" and "nasty theists" are actual quotations (from other people than you, that is!), won't you please supply us with link(s) to the post(s)?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:48 AM   #284
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Given the latest on this thread, perhaps a more useful question might be "Can a person be insulted to leave a religion/atheism?"

Some people are more comfortable with insulting a position rather than using reason to critique it. That may tell you something about their ability to do either.

It's not just religion either. Politics, sex, sports, it's part of tribalism. There is a certain satisfaction and validation received when insulting 'the other' when you are part of the in-group on a board.

Guys, what do you want to be known as? If you don't care if you are not known as a reasoner, then question answered! (Written by someone who doesn't mind throwing or receiving the odd zinger at times, but tries to never mistake insults for reason.)

Last edited by GDon; 14th April 2018 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:07 AM   #285
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People don't generally try to use degradation as a tool to help the person with whom they're communicating. They do it for fun, to promote their own social status, and for reasons like that. Most people are not terribly self-aware of their own motivations, though, myself included.
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:44 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Given the latest on this thread, perhaps a more useful question might be "Can a person be insulted to leave a religion/atheism?"

Some people are more comfortable with insulting a position rather than using reason to critique it. That may tell you something about their ability to do either.

It's not just religion either. Politics, sex, sports, it's part of tribalism. There is a certain satisfaction and validation received when insulting 'the other' when you are part of the in-group on a board.

Guys, what do you want to be known as? If you don't care if you are not known as a reasoner, then question answered! (Written by someone who doesn't mind throwing or receiving the odd zinger at times, but tries to never mistake insults for reason.)

Disappointing post from you GDon. I had hoped to hear about how/if you managed to reason your way into faith. Reason, and its effectiveness in determining faith outcome, is what this thread is about.
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:50 PM   #287
dann
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Given the latest on this thread, perhaps a more useful question might be "Can a person be insulted to leave a religion/atheism?"

Probably. People can be insulted to do all kinds of things!

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In general, however, I don't think that it's a very efficient way of convincing anybody of anything. And in the case of religion, a belief, the kind of force that an insult wields is negligible: Believers may decide that you're a despicable human being and ignore you. But if, for some reason (could be peer pressure, for instance), the believers want to maintain contact with you, they can just pretend that they don't believe. Not just religious faiths, but also political or sexual persuasions can be denied. (That's why religious persecution is probably one of the least efficient ways of putting an end to religion. All you need to do to escape prosecution is to pretend: You still believe in whatever you believe in, you just don't say it out loud.)

Quote:
Some people are more comfortable with insulting a position rather than using reason to critique it. That may tell you something about their ability to do either.

It may or it may not, but you're right that sometimes people will resort to insults when they run out of arguments - if they had any, in the first place.

Quote:
It's not just religion either. Politics, sex, sports, it's part of tribalism. There is a certain satisfaction and validation received when insulting 'the other' when you are part of the in-group on a board.

You are right, but I don't think that it would have to be the in-group. Peer pressure may be just as compelling in a persecuted minority group. It works in any group you want to belong to or depend on belonging to.

Quote:
Guys, what do you want to be known as? If you don't care if you are not known as a reasoner, then question answered! (Written by someone who doesn't mind throwing or receiving the odd zinger at times, but tries to never mistake insults for reason.)

There's one thing that gets me riled up every time: elitism! Elitist behavior, elitist arguments, and (pseudo) elitist organizations. And it surprises me every time how unintelligent elitist thinking makes people. Since I started writing about IQ theory, more than 15 years ago ...
IQ: The democratically purified racism (Skeptic Report)
How intelligent is the average IQ test designer? (Skeptic Report)
... I've been attacked by Mensans a couple of times, sometimes openly and sometimes I was made aware of discussions taking place among Mensans. It never ceases to amaze me how dumb those guys are. And the beauty of it is that their combination of arrogance and stupidity makes them extremely vulnerable to criticism. They tend to argue in the following way: 'I haven't really spent any time studying/analyzing this, but ...' because they actually think that they are much more clever than 98 % of humanity and thus don't need to know anything. I've had discussions with Danish Mensans who contradicted what I said about the purpose of their cult because they didn't know what the statement of purpose of Dansk Mensa actually said. I've seen them claim that intelligence is fate - you have the IQ that you're born with, it's all in your genes, and studying can't improve it - while at the same time engaging in discussions about what you can do to improve your IQ if you lacked a few points in order to pass their test.
But even in the case of those guys, I try to avoid ad homs and other insults. An actual argument that shows how dumb they are is much more humiliating!


Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
People don't generally try to use degradation as a tool to help the person with whom they're communicating. They do it for fun, to promote their own social status, and for reasons like that. Most people are not terribly self-aware of their own motivations, though, myself included.

Among "reasons like that", I think that their own need is what's most important: the need to feel superior! This is the reason why I've been trying to make it obvious to them how pathetic it is to pride oneself of knowing that there is no god, no beyond and no afterlife as if that were a gargantuan intellectual accomplishment.
I think that most of us know that it isn't. It's a starting point, that's all. Marx, for instance, criticized religion when he was 25. And then he spent the rest of his life criticizing capitalism ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 14th April 2018 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 14th April 2018, 12:55 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Disappointing post from you GDon. I had hoped to hear about how/if you managed to reason your way into faith. Reason, and its effectiveness in determining faith outcome, is what this thread is about.

Disappointing post from you, Thor 2. Everything in this world isn't what you hoped for! Neither is everything in this thread. Get used to it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:05 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
People don't generally try to use degradation as a tool to help the person with whom they're communicating. They do it for fun, to promote their own social status, and for reasons like that. Most people are not terribly self-aware of their own motivations, though, myself included.

We are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. Using reason we atheists find many religious beliefs to be quite absurd - we must be allowed to say this. If making this point insults those who hold these beliefs then so be it - it can't be avoided. Any offence we are guilty of pales into insignificance compared to the offence that religion has, and still does, impose on the non believer. I think we all know what they are.

Given the above I do not try and denigrate the religious personally although I do reserve the right to illustrate how ridiculous some of they beliefs are. Can we get back on the topic of this thread?
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:44 PM   #290
dann
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
As an Australian myself, I'd say that is also true of most people who would call themselves "believers": they are also indifferent to religion. If they believe in God, they try not to let it interrupt their day.

I think that you're right about this: Only fundamentalists (believers or atheists) imagine that if you're a believer, you are believing 24/7. Most of the time, almost everybody is preoccupied with their everyday lives, not with religion. Most devout Christians are probably believing for an hour or two on Sundays.

Quote:
In fact, I'd say that for all of human history, 90% or more of people have not really given a thought about religion. I know that there is this idea that everyone in the past were fundamentalists, and that gradually the Enlightenment has eroded fundamentalism so that people have become more liberal, but I'd suggest that most people have always been liberal about their beliefs, and the Enlightenment has been making more people fundamentalist.

I think that you are right about this as well: For the first couple of thousand years, people were trying to make sense of the world and came up with all kinds of weird explanations, but a delusion is not the same as a religion. And back then, even more so than now, people were busy getting food on the table - if they had advanced to the stage where they had tables ...
(I love this novel by one of my favourite authors, Daniel Chavarria, about the liberal religious views of the ancients: The Eye of Cybele)


Quote:
There have been times in the past where the right kind of religious beliefs have been important, but those were times when heresy was as much or more to do with politics as with religion.

Yeah, but... How many Australians have you met personally who really care about what is in the Bible? How many people that call themselves Christians that you know personally care whether the Bible is correct, or accurate, or consistent? Very few is my guess. Most would look to the Bible for inspiration rather than history, like they would towards Oprah.

Bible thumping seems to be a fundamentalist thing, not something that most or even many Christians do.

Quote:
I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians.

As I've pointed out on this board a couple of times: In Denmark we have preachers who aren't theists.
And it seems to be spreading to the rest of the world and, what may be more surprising, also accepted by whole congregations:
Quote:
One Sunday in 2001, she stood up in front of her congregation, as usual. But instead of a normal sermon, she declared that she no longer believed in God. "Something came over me, and I took God apart," she recalled. "I said I didn't believe in an interventionist God, not a God that was a Being, I didn't believe in Supernatural powers, or Heaven or Hell...My understanding of God is more about relationships with oneself, the others, and the planet."

Much to her surprise, neither the congregation nor the church board were bothered by this. Many even confessed that they, too, had their doubts. And so they carried on, without God.
This Christian minister doesn't believe in God - and she's not the only one (Vice News, Aug. 11, 2015)

Quote:
I can't speak for Americans and Brits, but for Australians there is a strange 'conversion' affect that goes on on atheist boards, whereby their beliefs about what constitutes 'true' Christianity becomes defined around the literal truth of the Bible, despite them themselves formerly calling themselves Christians and not caring how 'true' the Bible was in a historical or even factual sense.

Some atheists are zealous believers. They just aren't theists!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:49 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. Using reason we atheists find many religious beliefs to be quite absurd - we must be allowed to say this. If making this point insults those who hold these beliefs then so be it - it can't be avoided. Any offence we are guilty of pales into insignificance compared to the offence that religion has, and still does, impose on the non believer. I think we all know what they are.

Given the above I do not try and denigrate the religious personally although I do reserve the right to illustrate how ridiculous some of they beliefs are. Can we get back on the topic of this thread?

"We atheists"??! Really?!
Well, I atheist find many atheist beliefs absurd. And the holier-than-thou attitude apparently doesn't require that one is a theist ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:21 PM   #292
dann
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I should probably elaborate a little:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. Using reason we atheists find many religious beliefs to be quite absurd - we must be allowed to say this.

Nobody's tried to infringe on your first amendment rights - or whatever they're called in your part of the world.

Quote:
If making this point insults those who hold these beliefs

It doesn't! Not as such.

Quote:
then so be it - it can't be avoided.

Yes, it can! You enjoy pretending that any criticism of religion = insults. Religious fundamentalists may find any criticism of religion to be insulting. That's their mistake. However, you make it yours when you pretend that your insults are mere criticism.

Quote:
Any offence we are guilty of

I just thought you weren't guilty of any offences?!

Quote:
pales into insignificance compared to the offence that religion has, and still does, impose on the non believer. I think we all know what they are.

You are particularly fond of this tu quoque, aren't you?! Atheist martyrs of the world, unite!

Quote:
Given the above I do not try and denigrate the religious personally although I do reserve the right to illustrate how ridiculous some of they beliefs are. Can we get back on the topic of this thread?

So let's sum it up: 'We just can't help insulting believers. If we gave up on insulting the nutters, it would be a violation of our first-amendment rights. And anyway, the believers are to blame for our insults because believers are much worse than us. We are the real victims! We are the good guys so we have the right to tell believers that they are intellectually inferior to us.'
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 02:36 PM   #293
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Quote:
Any offence we are guilty of pales into insignificance compared to the offence that religion has, and still does, impose on the non believer.
There's a word for that line of thinking.

Even if you believe you're personally having your rights infringed upon by theists, it's crucial to not make them feel insulted if you wish to talk them out of it. It's a core principle of effective communication that you not put someone on the defensive too much if you want them to hear what you're saying.
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Old 14th April 2018, 03:35 PM   #294
dann
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But you're at cross purposes here, kellyb. The only thing Thor 2 wants them to hear is the insult.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:24 PM   #295
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:33 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Given the latest on this thread, perhaps a more useful question might be "Can a person be insulted to leave a religion/atheism?"
Obviously, some can, and have. Does that mean that it's a good idea? No, I don't think it does. I think that insulting someone more often just gives them an excuse to dismiss everything else you say.
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:39 PM   #297
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:53 PM   #298
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:07 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Aw ...... can't I. You get to decide if guys like ynot and I are not being nice enough to theists however.
Since neither of you have enough candlepower to hold your own against someone with just a passing grasp of the facts, you should avoid condescension.
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:03 AM   #300
dann
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Given the latest on this thread, perhaps a more useful question might be "Can a person be insulted to leave a religion/atheism?"

Sorry about the resurrection, GDon, but I would prefer something along these lines:

Quote:
A common belief of some atheists is that they are immensely intellectually superior to believers, an idea that they pride themselves of having reasoned their way into. But would it be possible for them to reason their way out of this belief, maybe with a little help from their friends? Or are they so stuck in this belief that any attempt at arguing against it will be interpreted as persecution and vile human rights abuse?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2018, 12:37 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Since neither of you have enough candlepower to hold your own against someone with just a passing grasp of the facts, you should avoid condescension.

I'm not sure if you mean it literally, but I think it should be boiled down to just: "avoid condescension."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:52 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Among "reasons like that", I think that their own need is what's most important: the need to feel superior! This is the reason why I've been trying to make it obvious to them how pathetic it is to pride oneself of knowing that there is no god, no beyond and no afterlife as if that were a gargantuan intellectual accomplishment.
I hope that one day people like that will come to understand how weak it makes them seem.

To me it seems equivalent of Donald Trump banging on and on about how his inauguration crowd was bigger than Obama's. Firstly, you don't need to say that it's the biggest if it actually is - people can see that for themselves. Secondly, it's giving all the power to the other guy - you're just demonstrating how much of a hold they have over you. Finally, it's showing everybody how small you are if that's how you feel you have to present yourself to the world.

It's acting like you think you're a big, tough guy, when actually you're just laying out all your petty insecurities for everybody to see.

I think discourse is so much better for everybody concerned, from all participants to all onlookers, when all parties are secure enough within themselves to avoid all the silly posturing.
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:32 AM   #303
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You can't be serious!!!
If he dares challenge Rex Tillerson to an IQ competition, he must be rilly, rilly, rilly, rilly smart!!! And he's the president!!!!!!!!
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:19 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"We atheists"??! Really?!
Well, I atheist find many atheist beliefs absurd. And the holier-than-thou attitude apparently doesn't require that one is a theist ...

Atheists beliefs? Are you, and can you, be taken seriously?

What does the word atheist imply in Denmark? For us in the English speaking World it just means a lack of belief in gods. That's it! There are no beliefs in anything else needed.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:36 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Atheists beliefs? Are you, and can you, be taken seriously?

What does the word atheist imply in Denmark? For us in the English speaking World it just means a lack of belief in gods. That's it! There are no beliefs in anything else needed.
Oh come on. Even you know that in practical use the word "atheist" carries a whole bunch of baggage other than it's purely literal dictionary definition. Which, by the way, includes active belief that no gods exist.

Originally Posted by dictionary.com
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:41 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Disappointing post from you, Thor 2. Everything in this world isn't what you hoped for! Neither is everything in this thread. Get used to it!

I was disappointed that GDon did not follow the discussion about reasoning and religion. (The subject matter of this thread). So you are disappointed in me for for being disappointed about this?

Leave the schoolyard type taunts out of it please.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:45 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh come on. Even you know that in practical use the word "atheist" carries a whole bunch of baggage other than it's purely literal dictionary definition. Which, by the way, includes active belief that no gods exist.

My dictionary says:

"a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."

A much better definition.

Can you give me an "atheist belief" apart from your dodgy dictionary extract?
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:59 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I should probably elaborate a little:
You shouldn't have bothered methinks given the stuff below.




Quote:
Nobody's tried to infringe on your first amendment rights - or whatever they're called in your part of the world.




It doesn't! Not as such.




Yes, it can! You enjoy pretending that any criticism of religion = insults. Religious fundamentalists may find any criticism of religion to be insulting. That's their mistake. However, you make it yours when you pretend that your insults are mere criticism.




I just thought you weren't guilty of any offences?!




You are particularly fond of this tu quoque, aren't you?! Atheist martyrs of the world, unite!
My part of the World is Australia. It's right there under my name and we don't have a first amendment.

You're strategy of breaking sentences in parts and replying to those parts does little to enhance you're argument. Forgive my ignorance but what is tu quoque?

Quote:
So let's sum it up: 'We just can't help insulting believers. If we gave up on insulting the nutters, it would be a violation of our first-amendment rights. And anyway, the believers are to blame for our insults because believers are much worse than us. We are the real victims! We are the good guys so we have the right to tell believers that they are intellectually inferior to us.'
More nonsense with another reference to the first amendment.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:00 PM   #309
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Ah, Webster's Dictionary is dodgy now. I don't have time to find alternatives for you right now, not that you'd consider any of them any less dodgy if they told you something you didn't agree with. I have time when I get home from work.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:11 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ah, Webster's Dictionary is dodgy now. I don't have time to find alternatives for you right now, not that you'd consider any of them any less dodgy if they told you something you didn't agree with. I have time when I get home from work.

Take you're time I have patience.

Language is fluid and forever changing. The majority of atheists I speak to, and I think the majority who post here, just proclaim a lack of belief in gods, not a positive belief in there being no god. Even Richard Dawkins falls into this category.
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:26 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ah, Webster's Dictionary is dodgy now. I don't have time to find alternatives for you right now, not that you'd consider any of them any less dodgy if they told you something you didn't agree with. I have time when I get home from work.

Don't bother, arthwollipot! Thor 2 is incorrigible. When he's lost his last limb, there's really no point in fightning him anymore.

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Old 15th April 2018, 09:57 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There's a word for that line of thinking.

Even if you believe you're personally having your rights infringed upon by theists, it's crucial to not make them feel insulted if you wish to talk them out of it. It's a core principle of effective communication that you not put someone on the defensive too much if you want them to hear what you're saying.

I detect measured tone in your writing kellyb so perhaps you may be prepared to listen to what I say. Dann has now resorted to personal insults so it would seem his arguments, such as they were, have failed.

My brother found Jesus when he was 18 years old when I read Bertrand Russell and found release at the age of 16. Can you imagine the discussions we had?

My brother married in the church, (to someone he met in the church), and they raised 4 children. The children went to religious schools, camps, and so on so became Christians also. Quite a fundy lot actually - not believing in evolution and such.

In spite of our diametrically opposed positions my brother and I never fell out. In later years he stopped trying to convert me so I left him to his beliefs as he left me alone with my lack of belief.

My brother died when quite young unfortunately, (God needed him to do things for him in heaven I was told), but his son, my nephew, has taken things to a new level. He's a praise Jesus faith healer, actively driving demons out of folk to cure them of all kinds of maladies, including homosexuality. He took it upon himself to convert me to his faith. It didn't work.

The emails between my nephew and I would fill a book and I can tell you I didn't pull any punches with my arguments. I never told him he was stupid but I certainly let him know what I thought of his beliefs. His arguments were all about experiences and just I believe because I believe because ........

He has stopped trying to convert me now and we remain friends.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:13 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Take you're time I have patience.

Language is fluid and forever changing. The majority of atheists I speak to, and I think the majority who post here, just proclaim a lack of belief in gods, not a positive belief in there being no god. Even Richard Dawkins falls into this category.
Yes, they do indeed. As a method of making an argument, generally. That doesn't mean that a majority of English speakers use the word in that way. You're free to use whatever definitions you choose, but if you use one that most others don't use, you can't be surprised that people will misunderstand you.

If you go up to randoms in the street and ask them what "atheism" means, I guarantee that most of them will give you a definition that carries baggage other than the naive lack-of-belief definition.

Note: I haven't tried this experiment. If you do, and you get a result other than that, I will surprisedly withdraw my argument.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:26 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, they do indeed. As a method of making an argument, generally. That doesn't mean that a majority of English speakers use the word in that way. You're free to use whatever definitions you choose, but if you use one that most others don't use, you can't be surprised that people will misunderstand you.

If you go up to randoms in the street and ask them what "atheism" means, I guarantee that most of them will give you a definition that carries baggage other than the naive lack-of-belief definition.

Note: I haven't tried this experiment. If you do, and you get a result other than that, I will surprisedly withdraw my argument.

No, no, no, ...... you can't just make a word mean whatever you want. It may change in meaning over time but its difficult to see that happening with the word atheist.

From my dictionary:

Quote:
theism
noun [ mass noun ]

belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. there are many different forms of theism.
Now when you put an "a" in front of theism and get "atheism" thats all it means. Just not a theist.

Just to add to my post above in response to kellyb, where I was illustrating how one can have discussions with theists, being very blunt about what you think of their beliefs but still remain friends, I draw the attention of readers to the documentary "Religulous" by Bill Mayer.

Bill interviewed one Pastor John Westcott and was not shy in pointing out the weak points in the pastors beliefs. At the end of the interview the good pastor insisted on giving Bill a hug when he went on his way.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:41 PM   #315
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Thor 2:
Quote:
Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Now here is what happens in practice and it also happens here on this forum. Ask a sufficient amount of atheist about beliefs in deities and some will claim, that beliefs in deities are wrong in the non-moral sense. If you ask further these atheists will start using reason, logic and evidence to explain how religion is wrong and how beliefs in deities are wrong. In short they will claim that since there is no evidence for deities, deities don't exist.
They may claim that atheism is the lack of beliefs in deities, but if you engage them in debate they will claim that deities don't exist.

With regard
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:27 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Thor 2:


Now here is what happens in practice and it also happens here on this forum. Ask a sufficient amount of atheist about beliefs in deities and some will claim, that beliefs in deities are wrong in the non-moral sense. If you ask further these atheists will start using reason, logic and evidence to explain how religion is wrong and how beliefs in deities are wrong. In short they will claim that since there is no evidence for deities, deities don't exist.
They may claim that atheism is the lack of beliefs in deities, but if you engage them in debate they will claim that deities don't exist.

With regard

Hello Tommy

Just like you to explode on the scene with a load of waffle to cloud the issue.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:33 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hello Tommy

Just like you to explode on the scene with a load of waffle to cloud the issue.
You really like to debate using just feelings/emotions. No reasoning, logic and evidence. Just your personal subjective, biased interpretations. How about for once reflecting over your own words.
Look at them:
Quote:
Just like you to explode on the scene with a load of waffle to cloud the issue.
No reasoning, logic or evidence.

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Old 16th April 2018, 10:25 PM   #318
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Incredible!
The same guy who blames you, "Just like you to explode on the scene with a load of waffle to cloud the issue," only yesterday complained that "Dann has now resorted to personal insults ...".
Like said, incorrigible!
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:46 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Incredible!
The same guy who blames you, "Just like you to explode on the scene with a load of waffle to cloud the issue," only yesterday complained that "Dann has now resorted to personal insults ...".
Like said, incorrigible!
Feelings/emotions, opinions, subjective justification/evaluation/measure and what not. Well, in the recorded history of mankind here is an old one:
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." - Protagoras.

#Some humans use subjectivity to claim the super-natural.
#Others use subjectivity to deny it in other versions than their own.
Both kinds of humans are different in how they use their individual subjectivity, but they share the same characteristic. They don't reflect and understand that they themselves are subjective and that other humans are subjectively different in how they think, believe, feel and so on.

I suspect it has to do with this:
Neurotypical: "neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one or the only correct one". From google.

In everyday words it goes like this: I can't believe that other humans experience the world differently, because it doesn't make sense to me, therefore it doesn't make sense to other humans.

As long as these humans think like that, you can't convince them otherwise, because it works for them. If you point out you have a different experience, it is not real because it doesn't make sense or it is incorrect, because their experience is the correct one.

With regard
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Old 17th April 2018, 01:23 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From my dictionary:



Now when you put an "a" in front of theism and get "atheism" thats all it means. Just not a theist.
Oh, right. When you don't like a dictionary definition, you can ignore it and simply define the word as the negation of another word. Despite the fact that the word in question actually has its own entry. Because that's how dictionaries work.
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