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Old 17th April 2018, 10:18 PM   #321
dann
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Some people might even resort to encyclopedias and their distinction between more or less broad definitions of the concept:
Wikipedia
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Encyclopædia Britannica
New World Encyclopedia
But I guess that would be cheating when you can fabricate your own definition and be adamant about it!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 17th April 2018 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:27 AM   #322
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Some people might even resort to encyclopedias and their distinction between more or less broad definitions of the concept:
Wikipedia
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Encyclopædia Britannica
New World Encyclopedia
But I guess that would be cheating when you can fabricate your own definition and be adamant about it!
Well, if you look at atheism as described in some of these links, atheism is nearly so diverse as to the effect of that atheists share the name, but nothing else, because we can't agree on the reason, logic, evidence and morality/ethics, which connects to atheism. In a sense it is a case of cognitive relativism and atheism is a diverse as religion is diverse. To say that someone says she/he self-identifies as an atheist only tells you that this person self-identifies as an atheist without any other baggage, but the baggage is always there.

So Thor 2:
What is reality?
What is morality/ethics?
What about politics?
Human rights?
What makes a human a human?
What is natural?
Is religion natural?
And so.

The list goes on. Just because you and I both self-identify as atheists don't mean that we share any other views in common.

So if we reason a human out of religion, what do we reason that human into?
Could you answer that, please?
Because, some of things we could replace religion with, are in effect as bad as religion?
It doesn't follow with logic, that if we remove religion, that the world gets better. That depends on how we remove it and what we replace it with?

With regard
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:42 AM   #323
dann
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
What is reality?

I know I'm not the one you're asking, but ...

Quote:
What is morality/ethics?

The good conscience of class society

Quote:
What about politics?

What about politics? Nothing really follows from the realization that there is/are no god/s. But if you are actually serious about fighting religion, you will have to fight the circumstances that make people need religion. (Same thing if you're serious about fighting substance addiction, actual opium etc. To make drugs illegal is just as effective as it is to persecute religion. It worked so well for the Romans ...)

Quote:
Human rights?

“Human Rights – an advance of civilization”

Quote:
What makes a human a human?

A better question would be: What makes a human being humane?

Quote:
What is natural?

Stuff not made by people! (Or, in other parts of the universe, possibly, stuff not made by other intelligent creatures.)

Quote:
Is religion natural?

Not unless you count praying mantises! I don't!

Quote:
So if we reason a human out of religion, what do we reason that human into?

I've already explained why we don't, but the absence of religion is just that: the absence of religion! (But who are your "we"?!)

Quote:
Could you answer that, please?

Yes.

Quote:
Because, some of things we could replace religion with, are in effect as bad as religion?

That is not a question, is it?! (But, yes, in most cases it's probably worse to believe in Trump that it is to believe in God, but an overwhelming majority of those who do seem to believe in both, not one or the other.)

Quote:
It doesn't follow with logic, that if we remove religion, that the world gets better. That depends on how we remove it and what we replace it with?

Again: It doesn't appear to be a question, but it does follow with logic that if we make the world a better place, the need for religion disappears for most people. (See my sig line!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th April 2018 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 02:35 AM   #324
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I know I'm not the one you're asking, but ...
Quote:
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
We can stop right there. I believe in humanity, that is a part of reality, though it would go away, if I stopped believing. So I don't believe in that belief of what reality is.
See, that didn't take long.


Quote:
That is subjective, both positions for and against any ideology what ever. So it is not a part of reality.
You are not consistent, because you believe yet you deny belief.


Quote:
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
Capitalism, communism, democracy and what ever would go away without belief in them.


Quote:
What about politics? Nothing really follows from the realization that there is/are no god/s. But if you are actually serious about fighting religion, you will have to fight the circumstances that make people need religion. (Same thing if you're serious about fighting substance addiction, actual opium etc. To make drugs illegal is just as effective as it is to persecute religion. It worked so well for the Romans ...)
So you believe in the good of humans, if you remove all bad influences and so on. Not sure I agree with that totally or how to achieve that. But sure it has some merit as long as you don't over do it.


Quote:
Sorry, I am social democrat, so stick me in one of your camps.


Quote:
A better question would be: What makes a human being humane?
I think you have to idealized view of humans. We might vote on the same side, left, but we disagree on the fine print.


Quote:
Stuff not made by people! (Or, in other parts of the universe, possibly, stuff not made by other intelligent creatures.)
Where does culture come from?


Quote:
Not unless you count praying mantises! I don't!
Well, yes, religion is natural, because is a behavior observable in a species, which is a part of nature.


Quote:
I've already explained why we don't, but the absence of religion is just that: the absence of religion! (But who are your "we"?!)
Those of us who can recognize the fallacy of Nirvana.


Quote:
That is not a question, is it?! (But, yes, in most cases it's probably worse to believe in Trump that it is to believe in God, but an overwhelming majority of those who do seem to believe in both, not one or the other.)
Well, laissez faire capitalism I don't believe in, but nor do I believe in communism. So we can agree to some things, and disagree on others. Why do you want to fight? You said so higher up. I don't want to fight. I want to compromise and not rock the boat. I don't believe in any versions of Nirvana, which leads us to the promised land. There is no promised land as envisioned by any of the not moderate ideologies/religions. They always lead to more fighting.


Quote:
Again: It doesn't appear to be a question, but it does follow with logic that if we make the world a better place, the need for religion disappears for most people. (See my sig line!)
So is fighting, remove all need for fighting and the fighting goes away. But you want to fight. I don't. You have no innate need to fight and you don't need to fight. Start there!!!

With regard
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Old 18th April 2018, 04:14 AM   #325
dann
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
We can stop right there. I believe in humanity, that is a part of reality, though it would go away, if I stopped believing. So I don't believe in that belief of what reality is.
See, that didn't take long.

Humanity would go away if you don't believe in it?!
No, not really!

Quote:
That is subjective, both positions for and against any ideology what ever. So it is not a part of reality.
You are not consistent, because you believe yet you deny belief.

Being against a false ideology, criticizing the wrong claims that it's based on is not subjective. No inconsistencies there.

Quote:
Capitalism, communism, democracy and what ever would go away without belief in them.

So you're saying that if you stop believing in any of those, they no longer exist?! I'm afraid that capitalism and democracy are very much in the real world and not in your head. They may not be what most people think they are, but they are definitely actual, real phenomena. Communism, of course, is not. Some people have tried to make it real, but they haven't succeeded yet.

Quote:
So you believe in the good of humans ...

Non sequitur

Quote:
if you remove all bad influences and so on. Not sure I agree with that totally or how to achieve that. But sure it has some merit as long as you don't over do it.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Nor do I have any idea what makes you sure or not about something, but it appears to be quite arbitrary.

Quote:
Sorry, I am social democrat...

Although I can see why you might want to apologize for that, I don't think you actually mean it!

Quote:
...so stick me in one of your camps.

Stick you in one of my what???!

Quote:
I think you have to idealized view of humans. We might vote on the same side, left,

Dream on. I don't vote for any side.

Quote:
but we disagree on the fine print.

And not just that.

Quote:
Where does culture come from?

I go with the definition that this autor refers to in the opening sentence. (And in the second one, I think a negation was left out.):

Quote:
what belongs to nature cannot be the result of human intervention

Quote:
Well, yes, religion is natural, because is a behavior observable in a species, which is a part of nature.

So you do think that mantises are actually praying?! I don't. And actual praying is a human activity. Culture not nature.

Quote:
Those of us who can recognize the fallacy of Nirvana.

A couple of their songs were OK, I guess, but I'm no real fan.

Quote:
Well, laissez faire capitalism I don't believe in,

So now it's gone?! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!
(See?! It doesn't work like that!)

Quote:
but nor do I believe in communism. So we can agree to some things, and disagree on others. Why do you want to fight? You said so higher up.

Sorry, you've lost me! I've no idea what you're talking about!

Quote:
I don't want to fight. I want to compromise and not rock the boat. I don't believe in any versions of Nirvana,

I am only familiar with Kurt Cobain's version. Are there others?!

Quote:
which leads us to the promised land. There is no promised land as envisioned by any of the not moderate ideologies/religions. They always lead to more fighting.

I have no idea what you're talking about ... except that you seem to be saying that there actually is a promised land: the one envisioned by "moderate ideologies," a kind of social-democratic version of Heaven, I presume, where everybody is blissfully happy and nobody ever fights.

Quote:
So is fighting,

So is fighting?! What is fighting?! I don't see what your "so" is supposed to refer to.

Quote:
remove all need for fighting and the fighting goes away. But you want to fight.

I do??!

Quote:
I don't. You have no innate need to fight and you don't need to fight. Start there!!!

Start where?! I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about, but I assume it's another non sequitur.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2018, 04:45 AM   #326
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...
Quote:
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”
One step at a time. I believe in humanity in the moral sense. That is real, so a part of reality. Yet according to your belief in reality, that is not a part of reality.

I am an atheist, yet other beliefs are a real as mine. The idea that only that which would remain outside beliefs, is reality, is absurd.
My moral beliefs are beliefs, they are informed by reason, logic and evidence, but not solely as they also rest on emotions.
So according to you, or rather your quote from Phillip K. Dick we start by being not able to agree on what reality is.

That means that we have a long way to go, because e.g. you didn't know what the fallacy of nirvana is.
Also that, humans has culture, is biology and natural.

We are so far away form each other as possible.
So I will start.
I am a moderate, who believe in democracy and the welfare state in combination with aspects of socialism and capitalism.
I believe in a secular humanistic society and human rights.

Now you state your political view in short form.

Then we see if we disagree. If we disagree we can take as many rounds as you like where we explore the differences and go on to see if we can agree if religion and atheism are true/false/not relevant, natural, rational and what not. And if being a human is more than a production of culture or indeed nature plays a role.

With regard
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:45 AM   #327
dann
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
One step at a time. I believe in humanity in the moral sense. That is real, so a part of reality. Yet according to your belief in reality, that is not a part of reality.

You're wrong. It is a part of reality that you say that you believe in humanity in the moral sense. You say so whether I believe it or not.

Quote:
I am an atheist, yet other beliefs are a real as mine.

Yes, all beliefs are real beliefs. No problem.

Quote:
The idea that only that which would remain outside beliefs, is reality, is absurd.

No, it's reality. And it's reality whether you believe it or not.

Quote:
My moral beliefs are beliefs, they are informed by reason, logic and evidence, but not solely as they also rest on emotions.

Yes, if you say so I guess they probably are.

Quote:
So according to you, or rather your quote from Phillip K. Dick we start by being not able to agree on what reality is.

No, not at all. We may not be able to agree, but not for the reason you seem to think.

Quote:
That means that we have a long way to go, because e.g. you didn't know what the fallacy of nirvana is.

I don't have a long way to go. When you think so, it's because you believe that I share the intention of agreeing with you. I don't. Your "fallacy of Nirvana" is called the Nirvana fallacy - and I was putting you on.

Quote:
Also that, humans has culture, is biology and natural.

That human beings have evolved to the stage where they have culture is natural. What they do, however, apart from natural stuff like urinating and defecating, even the way they urinate and defecate (in porcelain bowl, for instance), is culture by definition.

Quote:
We are so far away form each other as possible.

No problem. No need to get any closer.

Quote:
So I will start.

If you insist, but no need to!

Quote:
I am a moderate, who believe in democracy and the welfare state in combination with aspects of socialism and capitalism.
I believe in a secular humanistic society and human rights.

Good for you, I guess.

Quote:
Now you state your political view in short form.

No, you are absolute wrong. I don't! Neither long nor short.


Quote:
Then we see if we disagree. If we disagree we can take as many rounds as you like where we explore the differences and go on to see if we can agree if religion and atheism are true/false/not relevant, natural, rational and what not.

No, you are as wrong as you can possibly be: We don't see if we disagree, we don't take any more rounds, and we don't explore the differences or go on to see if we can agree.

Quote:
And if being a human is more than a production of culture or indeed nature plays a role.

And even if you believe that I've said that being a human being is the product of culture, I never actually said that. When you stop believing in that idea it will go away and only exist in the words in your post and the quotations from it in mine. And even if you insist on believing that I said, your belief is only real as belief, not as reality.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:56 AM   #328
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...
And even if you believe that I've said that being a human being is the product of culture, I never actually said that. When you stop believing in that idea it will go away and only exist in the words in your post and the quotations from it in mine. And even if you insist on believing that I said, your belief is only real as belief, not as reality.
Okay, I misread you. For that I apologize. Sorry.

Now for the highlighted, the joke here is you believe that reality is independent of beliefs. The joke is that you believe that.

So you won't do politics and I won't read long links. And we can't agree about whether beliefs are a part of reality or not.
Let us check that:
You to the effect of: Only that, which when you stop believing in it, remains, is reality.
Me: I don't believe that.
You: That is not a part of reality.
Me: Then how can we talk about it? How does it get from not in reality to reality, because you are in reality, right?

With regard
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Old 18th April 2018, 10:54 AM   #329
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I was never reasoned into it and saw no reason to believe it on my own. Just another ghost story and I trust we all know those are made up too.
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:52 PM   #330
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I was never reasoned into it and saw no reason to believe it on my own. Just another ghost story and I trust we all know those are made up too.

Hi fuelair and thanks for getting this discussion back on topic, instead of another endless debate on the meaning of the word atheist.

It would seem you escaped lightly compared to me. I certainly was not reasoned into religion either but was indoctrinated into it. Caused me a considerable amount of grief I can tell you until I found Bertrand Russell. Bertrand didn't really reason me out of belief either, but showed me it was possible to reject it by example. Being quite young it never occurred to me that Christian belief could be in error.

The general consensus here seems to be that reasoning someone out of religion has limited success and that because they were not reasoned into it. I have yet to here of someone, apart from GDon, who claims to have been reasoned into religious belief. GDon won't elaborate on his experience however.
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Old 18th April 2018, 02:01 PM   #331
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Well, if you look at atheism as described in some of these links, atheism is nearly so diverse as to the effect of that atheists share the name, but nothing else, because we can't agree on the reason, logic, evidence and morality/ethics, which connects to atheism. In a sense it is a case of cognitive relativism and atheism is a diverse as religion is diverse. To say that someone says she/he self-identifies as an atheist only tells you that this person self-identifies as an atheist without any other baggage, but the baggage is always there.

So Thor 2:
What is reality?
What is morality/ethics?
What about politics?
Human rights?
What makes a human a human?
What is natural?
Is religion natural?
And so.

The list goes on. Just because you and I both self-identify as atheists don't mean that we share any other views in common.

So if we reason a human out of religion, what do we reason that human into?
Could you answer that, please?
Because, some of things we could replace religion with, are in effect as bad as religion?
It doesn't follow with logic, that if we remove religion, that the world gets better. That depends on how we remove it and what we replace it with?

With regard

Tommy,

The topic of this thread is whether it is possible to reason someone out of religion. Although the thrust of your discourse is unclear to me, it is obviously not about the topic of this thread.
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Old 18th April 2018, 03:12 PM   #332
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The topic of this thread is whether it is possible to reason someone out of religion.
Yeah, about that; I do think it is possible - but not usually in the exact way people are reasoned into or out of other things.

Long ago in the wee early days of the Interwebs there was a forum similar to this one, with maybe a bit more of a focus on the atheism/theism debate at infidels.org. Does anyone remember that place? It used to be quite busy, and quite nice. I was a frequent poster there, much more is than here, and at the time I was really into understanding and evaluating the different apologetics for Christianity. One of the more intelligent Christians who posted there was a guy named Jon Curry (I think). Pretty smart, articulate, polite and tried to address all the arguments that came his way. (We had a lot in common!)

Anyways, after posting there for years, he disappeared for a few weeks and returned with a pretty heartfelt post letting everyone know that he converted, or reconverted, or whatever you would call it, and no longer believed in a higher power. It was pretty cool and surprising to see.

I guess my point is that I don't think these kinds of conversions involving fundamental beliefs happen very often or very easily, but rather more like a time-release medication kicking in.
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Old 18th April 2018, 03:48 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yeah, about that; I do think it is possible - but not usually in the exact way people are reasoned into or out of other things.

Long ago in the wee early days of the Interwebs there was a forum similar to this one, with maybe a bit more of a focus on the atheism/theism debate at infidels.org. Does anyone remember that place? It used to be quite busy, and quite nice. I was a frequent poster there, much more is than here, and at the time I was really into understanding and evaluating the different apologetics for Christianity. One of the more intelligent Christians who posted there was a guy named Jon Curry (I think). Pretty smart, articulate, polite and tried to address all the arguments that came his way. (We had a lot in common!)

Anyways, after posting there for years, he disappeared for a few weeks and returned with a pretty heartfelt post letting everyone know that he converted, or reconverted, or whatever you would call it, and no longer believed in a higher power. It was pretty cool and surprising to see.

I guess my point is that I don't think these kinds of conversions involving fundamental beliefs happen very often or very easily, but rather more like a time-release medication kicking in.

An encouraging story sir thank you.

A quite famous ex Christian, and ex clergy, is one Matt Dillahunty of "The Atheist Experience". Don't know the circumstances surrounding his de-conversion. Must look into it.
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Old 18th April 2018, 03:56 PM   #334
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Found something:


http://www.atheist-experience.com/pe...tt_dillahunty/


Quote:
I was raised in a loving, Southern Baptist home and was a fundamentalist Christian for over 20 years. After 8 years in the Navy and several years in the hi-tech game, I set out to re-affirm my faith with designs on attending seminary and continuing with a life in the ministry. What began as an attempt to bolster my faith became a continuing investigation into more topics than I ever suspected I'd enjoy.

After the first couple of years, reason forced me to acknowledge that my faith had not only been weakened by my studies - it had been utterly destroyed. The thoughts, writings and wisdom of people like; Robert Ingersoll, Voltaire, Dan Barker, Richard Dawkins, Farrell Till and many others, helped free my mind from the shackles of religion without a single moment of despair. I continue to study philosophy, religion, science, history and the many other topics which have helped me to understand reality and enjoy my life.

A substantial brick in the foundations of the notion that reason can overcome religion.
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Old 18th April 2018, 07:40 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have yet to here of someone, apart from GDon, who claims to have been reasoned into religious belief. GDon won't elaborate on his experience however.
It's a fair demand given the topic of this thread, and I started to do this earlier in this thread. But I deleted those posts. I was pissed off with your comment that "insults are unavoidable", so I responded accordingly. How much useful discussion is possible with someone who thinks insulting ideas are "unavoidable"? Not that I don't mind giving or receiving the odd zinger, and it would be hypocritical of me to say I never do that. But the "unavoidable" part doesn't encourage the idea that any exchange will be positive.

Having said that, I've read a lot of Thor 2's posts, and he isn't particularly insulting at all, so in that spirit I'll explain how I was 'reasoned' out of atheism in my next post. Not sure that is the right way to put it, since I was never reasoned into atheism, but I'll make that clearer in my next post later today.
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Old 19th April 2018, 12:04 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
It's a fair demand given the topic of this thread, and I started to do this earlier in this thread. But I deleted those posts. I was pissed off with your comment that "insults are unavoidable", so I responded accordingly. How much useful discussion is possible with someone who thinks insulting ideas are "unavoidable"? Not that I don't mind giving or receiving the odd zinger, and it would be hypocritical of me to say I never do that. But the "unavoidable" part doesn't encourage the idea that any exchange will be positive.

Having said that, I've read a lot of Thor 2's posts, and he isn't particularly insulting at all, so in that spirit I'll explain how I was 'reasoned' out of atheism in my next post. Not sure that is the right way to put it, since I was never reasoned into atheism, but I'll make that clearer in my next post later today.

Many thanks for that GDon. I, and I am sure others, await your post on the subject with interest.
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Old 19th April 2018, 02:39 AM   #337
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Below I've given my reasons for moving from atheist to theist. I get asked about this occasionally, and I've found from responses that a lot of times atheists have their own idea of what God should be, or what reasons I needed to provide that would convince them that their particular idea of God existed, which I'm sure I can't do. I usually agree that the God that an atheist believes doesn't exist does not in fact exist. I'm happy with my own version of God, and I'm happy to argue about that version. If any one -- atheist or theist -- wants to argue that their particular version of God either exists or doesn't exist, I'm fine with that. Just don't confuse your version with mine!

I was an atheist/agnostic until about age 30. I'm now in my mid 50s. I was never a 'hard core' atheist, I was an 'apatheist', an apathetic atheist. It wasn't so much that I was convinced that atheism was correct, I just didn't really care. I didn't start learning about arguments for atheism until I started flirting with the idea of theism. The arguments for atheism, when I studied them, I found were unconvincing. (There was one book called I think "The Atheists Debater Handbook", which is simply atrocious.)

I was brought up with no religion. No-one in my family is religious. We never talked about it. When I explained to one brother that I was a theist, he called me "weird". As a young fella, I was extremely interested in Roman and Greek mythology, UFOs and the Ancient Astronaut theory. When I was about 10 years old, my Dad took me to see Erich Von Daniken who was touring Australia at the time. I stopped believing in the Ancient Astronaut theory and alien flying saucers when I was about 12. But I remained very interested in UFOs as a phenomenon until my 30s, from a skeptical perspective. I joined the Australian Skeptics for a while, and have always considered myself a skeptic.

That's my 'philosophical' background. So what made me into a theist? I started reading books about assertiveness training. It sounds strange I know, but it got me to thinking about how life is what we put into it, that either this is all there is, or there is something more. That got me into reading books about philosophy, and then onto Taoism, then into broad Christian apologetics. Eventually I recognised that I was experiencing a kind of cognitive dissonance: on the one hand, I thought in terms of philosophical naturalism -- that the universe is all there is -- but on the other hand, I had come to believe that there is more to life than what there is. I needed to reject one of those hands. I resolved it by declaring myself a theist.

Now, going from "there is more to life than the universe" to "there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God" is a philosophical leap. But I found it an easy step, since believing in such a God gives a grounding in why the universe exists, why being good is necessary, a few other things. It's a good place holder, one I'm happy to accept until something else comes along. It's a leap of faith. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I don't believe, nor have I ever believed, that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus was the virgin-born Son of God. I called myself a "liberal Christian" for a time, not dissimilar to the reasons why Dr Richard Dawkins calls himself a "cultural Christian", but I dropped that label a while ago, since for most modern Christians the defining element is that Jesus is the literal Son of God (though not interestingly for some earliest Christians)

That's about it. It happened a while ago now, so the conversion process is receding into fading memory. I've read all the atheist arguments that I can, and I'm still happy with my choice. I'm not sure what could argue me out of my theism. Something awful happening to me? That would be an emotional response rather than a rational one. Something else? I don't know. If you have any ideas, I'd be interested to read them. What I won't respond to are (A) insults (unavoidable or not!), or (B) "maybe" arguments, e.g. "maybe God is bad" or "maybe Zeus exists", or things like that. If YOU believe that God is bad or that Zeus exists, then go ahead. But just throwing things up for the sake of argument is not going to be responded to. I'll ask you to believe in your argument or point when you make it.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:00 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
But I found it an easy step, since believing in such a God gives a grounding in why the universe exists, why being good is necessary, a few other things.
I suppose the question is why do you think there's a reason why the universe exists, why do you think it's necessary to be good (beyond the biological imperatives that being a member of a social species such as homo sapiens necessitates), etc?

Beyond that, doesn't the existence of God just change the question from why the universe exists to why God exists?
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Old 19th April 2018, 12:34 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I suppose the question is why do you think there's a reason why the universe exists, why do you think it's necessary to be good (beyond the biological imperatives that being a member of a social species such as homo sapiens necessitates), etc?

Beyond that, doesn't the existence of God just change the question from why the universe exists to why God exists?
My initial thoughts as well.

From his post I wouldn’t say GDon is a “reasoned theist”. Certainly not intellectually/rationally reasoned. Emotionally reasoned perhaps, if that’s not a contradiction. To be fair I can’t find anywhere in his previous posts in this thread where GDon has claimed to be a “reasoned theist”. Perhaps it was in one of his three “deleted” posts?

He does seem to claim to be a rationally reasoned theist in his last post however . . .
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Something awful happening to me? That would be an emotional response rather than a rational one.
I can see no evidence that he is, and much evidence that he isn't . . .
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:00 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I'm happy with my own version of God, and I'm happy to argue about that version. If any one -- atheist or theist -- wants to argue that their particular version of God either exists or doesn't exist, I'm fine with that. Just don't confuse your version with mine!
Unless and until you provide an explanation of “your version of God” how can we possibly “argue about that version”? One of the frustrating things about debating gods with theists is they never define exactly what “their particular god” is.
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:03 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I suppose the question is why do you think there's a reason why the universe exists, why do you think it's necessary to be good (beyond the biological imperatives that being a member of a social species such as homo sapiens necessitates), etc?
"Necessary" not in a "logically necessary" manner, just as something important to me.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Beyond that, doesn't the existence of God just change the question from why the universe exists to why God exists?
If you believe that the universe may not need a reason for its existence, then fair enough. To me, an "eternal God" is a place holder for why we exist. Could the universe be eternal, thus simply exists? Could be. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, or ask them to accept my reasons.
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:09 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
"Necessary" not in a "logically necessary" manner, just as something important to me.
In an "emotionally necessary" manner then?
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:22 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
If you believe that the universe may not need a reason for its existence, then fair enough. To me, an "eternal God" is a place holder for why we exist. Could the universe be eternal, thus simply exists? Could be. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, or ask them to accept my reasons.
Eternal god or eternal universe? At least we know the universe actually exists. What's wrong with "We don't know"? Not mysteriously exciting or emotionally comforting I guess.
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:43 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
My initial thoughts as well.

From his post I wouldn’t say GDon is a “reasoned theist”. Certainly not intellectually/rationally reasoned. Emotionally reasoned perhaps, if that’s not a contradiction. To be fair I can’t find anywhere in his previous posts in this thread where GDon has claimed to be a “reasoned theist”. Perhaps it was in one of his three “deleted” posts?

He does seem to claim to be a rationally reasoned theist in his last post however . . .

I can see no evidence that he is, and much evidence that he isn't . . .

Back in post #13 GDon wrote:

Quote:
I was an atheist until I was about 30 years old, then a theist afterwards. I started posting on atheist/theist discussion boards around 2000, and to me, a lot of Australians who have converted to atheism from theism suddenly start to believe that Christians MUST believe in the Bible, despite their own former position of not really caring what was in the Bible when they called themselves Christians.
I challenged him about this, suggesting perhaps that he thought he had reasoned himself into theism.
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Old 19th April 2018, 01:51 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Back in post #13 GDon wrote:

I challenged him about this, suggesting perhaps that he thought he had reasoned himself into theism.
Thanks for explaining. Seems from post #337 that’s indeed what he thinks. I would only accept he has been emotionally reasoned, not intellectually/rationally reasoned.
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Old 19th April 2018, 02:02 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Below I've given my reasons for moving from atheist to theist.

............

Thanks for your story GDon. I get the impression you "felt" your way into theism rather than "reasoned" however. (Perhaps I am guilty of suggesting the reasoned thing.) That to one side you are certainly not the kind of theist that I see as a threat .... I think .... because you don't draw on sacred texts, to guide you in your life or guide you into telling others how to live theirs. Do you get any inspiration from religious material?

Interesting that your father took you to see Erich Von Daniken. Did he go for that stuff? Was he a believer in any other kind of woo?
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Old 19th April 2018, 03:27 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting that your father took you to see Erich Von Daniken. Did he go for that stuff? Was he a believer in any other kind of woo?
Erich Von Daniken is woo?!?!?! . . . Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Oh well, at least "advanced aliensdidit" is infinitely more credible and possible than "magical, invisible goddidit".
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Old 19th April 2018, 03:51 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I have always considered myself a skeptic.
Still? Your god beliefs are anything but skeptical ("It's a leap of faith").
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:18 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Eternal god or eternal universe?
Which is the best candidate for the property "eternal" or "uncaused cause", a god or a physical universe?

Quote:
At least we know the universe actually exists.
We know what our senses tell us. That information is compatible with atheism, theism, idealism, dualism, simulation theory, etc.

In short, we don't know a physical universe exists. It's an assumption people make.

Quote:
What's wrong with "We don't know"? Not mysteriously exciting or emotionally comforting I guess.
That is probably the best position, but for every hardcore theist I've ever met, convinced the god they believe in exists, there's a similar hardcore atheist just as convinced no gods exist.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:42 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for your story GDon. I get the impression you "felt" your way into theism rather than "reasoned" however.
I prefer "leap of faith" as per my earlier post, but fair comment.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Do you get any inspiration from religious material?
Like all of us, I get inspiration from a lot of sources.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Interesting that your father took you to see Erich Von Daniken. Did he go for that stuff? Was he a believer in any other kind of woo?
If he was, he didn't really let on. I knew he loved conspiracy theories, though he didn't believe in anything in particular as far as I know. My father passed away almost a year ago today. Since he was suffering from dementia, and it was a peaceful passing, there was more relief than sadness when this happened.

What was sad, from my perspective, is what I found when we cleared out his house a few years ago, preparing him for an Aged Care centre. On his bookshelf were books on a variety of topics that interest me, including on UFOs, philosophy, Buddhism, Taosim, even one on the Jesus Myth theory from the 1950s. Unfortunately by that time he wasn't lucid enough to speak on those topics, so I never was able to discuss them with him.

I was fairly close to my Dad, but simply never knew of his interest in those things. Guys, whether you are atheists or theists, speak to your Dads if you haven't had a chance to! Ask him what's on his bookshelf. You may be surprised. Don't wait too long.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:48 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Which is the best candidate for the property "eternal" or "uncaused cause", a god or a physical universe?
"Eternal" and "uncaused cause" are not the same thing (not even close or even related).

"Eternal" in the context of this discussion means "eternal existence" (nothing to do with "cause"). Obviously the universe actually exists by any credible measure of anything that exists. There isn't a speck of credible evidence any god actually exists however, so the universe by far the best candidate.
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Old 19th April 2018, 07:14 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
We know what our senses tell us. That information is compatible with atheism, theism, idealism, dualism, simulation theory, etc.

In short, we don't know a physical universe exists. It's an assumption people make.
And where do you think our senses get the information from with which to "tell us"? Have you ever thought that perhaps it's almost like there's a physical universe that actually exists, that our senses actually interact with, and then send information about to our brain? And perhaps that information is therefore purely related to an actual physical reality? If reality is purely a product of consciousness why do we even need sensory functions at all? At least you've admitted we have them.

Atheism, theism, idealism, dualism, simulation theory, and the like are purely abstract concepts people make up and often believe are more.

In even shorter, you're talking rubbish! (at least you're consistent)
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Old 19th April 2018, 10:03 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I prefer "leap of faith" as per my earlier post, but fair comment.


Like all of us, I get inspiration from a lot of sources.
I have to admit there has been a good deal of art and music inspired by religion but I can't say I have been directly inspired by any theistic source.

I wonder how strong your conviction is about the existence of a supernatural entity. Richard Dawkins said on a scale of 1 to 7 (1 being 100% sure there was a god and 7 being 100% sure there was not) he would place himself at 6. I would also and wonder where you are on the scale. Also interested to know if you have other friends with a similar persuasion.

Quote:
If he was, he didn't really let on. I knew he loved conspiracy theories, though he didn't believe in anything in particular as far as I know. My father passed away almost a year ago today. Since he was suffering from dementia, and it was a peaceful passing, there was more relief than sadness when this happened.

What was sad, from my perspective, is what I found when we cleared out his house a few years ago, preparing him for an Aged Care centre. On his bookshelf were books on a variety of topics that interest me, including on UFOs, philosophy, Buddhism, Taosim, even one on the Jesus Myth theory from the 1950s. Unfortunately by that time he wasn't lucid enough to speak on those topics, so I never was able to discuss them with him.

I was fairly close to my Dad, but simply never knew of his interest in those things. Guys, whether you are atheists or theists, speak to your Dads if you haven't had a chance to! Ask him what's on his bookshelf. You may be surprised. Don't wait too long.
Sad to here of your lack of communication with your dad about this stuff. My dad was a bit wishy washy about religion. He was a Mason and they were on about "The Universal Architect" and such but he was not a church goer. We were quite close however, much closer than my brother and he, whose religious zeal drove a wedge between him and both parents.
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Old 19th April 2018, 11:50 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A common belief of some atheists is you cannot reason someone out of something, (religious belief) they were not reasoned into.
It's possible with time and patience, but often you need to adapt the message for the hearer. Make it personal and something they can relate to. Documentaries like the one you posted will work for people who are already well on their way of leaving, but for stubborn adherents, you need to deal with them as individuals, not with a general broadcast.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The following video is a very thorough debunking of the authenticity of "The Book of Abraham" written by Joseph Smith, who supposedly translated some ancient Egyptian scrolls to write the book. The video suggests Mormonism is collapsing as a result of these findings and showed interviews with some ex-Mormons at the end.
All "prophecies" will prove untenable in the end. The ancient humans really should have found a better way to transmit warnings (which were sometimes based in observation or calculation i.e. Thales of Miletus' prediction of eclipses, not always guesswork. The Abrahamic sects have thrown a wrench into the matter), such as plainly stating what could happen. Fatalism is a disease which has infected various religions, particularly Christianity and Hinduism.

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Old 20th April 2018, 02:51 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
"Necessary" not in a "logically necessary" manner, just as something important to me.
That's fair enough, but it's not a reasoned position. It is, in so many words, something you're choosing to believe because you'd prefer reality to be that way.

Quote:
If you believe that the universe may not need a reason for its existence, then fair enough. To me, an "eternal God" is a place holder for why we exist. Could the universe be eternal, thus simply exists? Could be. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, or ask them to accept my reasons.
I'm not expecting you to try to convince anybody. I'm interested in what your reasons are, and how you've thought about this.

To re-phrase my point, can you not see that positing God as a reason for the universe to exist just moves the question back one step? The question is still "why is there something, rather than nothing?", you're just substituting a different word for the word "something" in that sentence.

Do you have an answer for why you think God exists? If you don't, then why is that more satisfying than not having an answer for why the universe exists? Does it, again, come down to what you'd like to be true?
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:24 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's fair enough, but it's not a reasoned position. It is, in so many words, something you're choosing to believe because you'd prefer reality to be that way.
I agree.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
To re-phrase my point, can you not see that positing God as a reason for the universe to exist just moves the question back one step? The question is still "why is there something, rather than nothing?", you're just substituting a different word for the word "something" in that sentence.
Again, I agree.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Do you have an answer for why you think God exists? If you don't, then why is that more satisfying than not having an answer for why the universe exists? Does it, again, come down to what you'd like to be true?
Yes.
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Old 20th April 2018, 03:31 AM   #357
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Fair enough.
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Old 20th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The topic of this thread is whether it is possible to reason someone out of religion.
Re the original question - I think we need to establish (if) we are in fact referencing two ideas here, 1) our raw experience of reality, and 2) our interpretation of our experiences.
The question then is, can we be reasoned out of our interpretation of our experiences, where religion and scientific realism are two possible interpretations.
Since there are multiple cases of people swapping interpretations, the answer seems to be Yes - even on a daily or moment to moment basis.
A back-door assumption in this thread is that religion is an add on, meaning if one gets reasoned out of religion, then one automatically falls back to scientific realism (or some variant). But scientific realism is just another interpretation.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:42 PM   #359
ynot
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Do you have an answer for why you think God exists? If you don't, then why is that more satisfying than not having an answer for why the universe exists? Does it, again, come down to what you'd like to be true?
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Yes.
Which of the three questions asked is this is an answer to? I’m guessing the last?
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:54 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Re the original question - I think we need to establish (if) we are in fact referencing two ideas here, 1) our raw experience of reality, and 2) our interpretation of our experiences.
The question then is, can we be reasoned out of our interpretation of our experiences, where religion and scientific realism are two possible interpretations.
Since there are multiple cases of people swapping interpretations, the answer seems to be Yes - even on a daily or moment to moment basis.
A back-door assumption in this thread is that religion is an add on, meaning if one gets reasoned out of religion, then one automatically falls back to scientific realism (or some variant). But scientific realism is just another interpretation.
Wrong.
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Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.
Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths.
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