|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
17th April 2018, 10:18 PM | #321 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
Some people might even resort to encyclopedias and their distinction between more or less broad definitions of the concept:
Wikipedia Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Encyclopædia Britannica New World Encyclopedia But I guess that would be cheating when you can fabricate your own definition and be adamant about it! |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
18th April 2018, 12:27 AM | #322 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
|
Well, if you look at atheism as described in some of these links, atheism is nearly so diverse as to the effect of that atheists share the name, but nothing else, because we can't agree on the reason, logic, evidence and morality/ethics, which connects to atheism. In a sense it is a case of cognitive relativism and atheism is a diverse as religion is diverse. To say that someone says she/he self-identifies as an atheist only tells you that this person self-identifies as an atheist without any other baggage, but the baggage is always there.
So Thor 2: What is reality? What is morality/ethics? What about politics? Human rights? What makes a human a human? What is natural? Is religion natural? And so. The list goes on. Just because you and I both self-identify as atheists don't mean that we share any other views in common. So if we reason a human out of religion, what do we reason that human into? Could you answer that, please? Because, some of things we could replace religion with, are in effect as bad as religion? It doesn't follow with logic, that if we remove religion, that the world gets better. That depends on how we remove it and what we replace it with? With regard |
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
|
18th April 2018, 01:42 AM | #323 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
I know I'm not the one you're asking, but ...
Quote:
The good conscience of class society
Quote:
What about politics? Nothing really follows from the realization that there is/are no god/s. But if you are actually serious about fighting religion, you will have to fight the circumstances that make people need religion. (Same thing if you're serious about fighting substance addiction, actual opium etc. To make drugs illegal is just as effective as it is to persecute religion. It worked so well for the Romans ...)
Quote:
“Human Rights – an advance of civilization”
Quote:
A better question would be: What makes a human being humane?
Quote:
Stuff not made by people! (Or, in other parts of the universe, possibly, stuff not made by other intelligent creatures.)
Quote:
Not unless you count praying mantises! I don't!
Quote:
I've already explained why we don't, but the absence of religion is just that: the absence of religion! (But who are your "we"?!)
Quote:
Yes.
Quote:
That is not a question, is it?! (But, yes, in most cases it's probably worse to believe in Trump that it is to believe in God, but an overwhelming majority of those who do seem to believe in both, not one or the other.)
Quote:
Again: It doesn't appear to be a question, but it does follow with logic that if we make the world a better place, the need for religion disappears for most people. (See my sig line!) |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
18th April 2018, 02:35 AM | #324 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
|
Quote:
See, that didn't take long.
Quote:
You are not consistent, because you believe yet you deny belief.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
With regard |
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
|
18th April 2018, 04:14 AM | #325 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
Humanity would go away if you don't believe in it?! No, not really!
Quote:
Being against a false ideology, criticizing the wrong claims that it's based on is not subjective. No inconsistencies there.
Quote:
So you're saying that if you stop believing in any of those, they no longer exist?! I'm afraid that capitalism and democracy are very much in the real world and not in your head. They may not be what most people think they are, but they are definitely actual, real phenomena. Communism, of course, is not. Some people have tried to make it real, but they haven't succeeded yet.
Quote:
Non sequitur
Quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Nor do I have any idea what makes you sure or not about something, but it appears to be quite arbitrary.
Quote:
Although I can see why you might want to apologize for that, I don't think you actually mean it!
Quote:
Stick you in one of my what???!
Quote:
Dream on. I don't vote for any side.
Quote:
And not just that.
Quote:
I go with the definition that this autor refers to in the opening sentence. (And in the second one, I think a negation was left out.):
Quote:
Quote:
So you do think that mantises are actually praying?! I don't. And actual praying is a human activity. Culture not nature.
Quote:
A couple of their songs were OK, I guess, but I'm no real fan.
Quote:
So now it's gone?! Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! (See?! It doesn't work like that!)
Quote:
Sorry, you've lost me! I've no idea what you're talking about!
Quote:
I am only familiar with Kurt Cobain's version. Are there others?!
Quote:
I have no idea what you're talking about ... except that you seem to be saying that there actually is a promised land: the one envisioned by "moderate ideologies," a kind of social-democratic version of Heaven, I presume, where everybody is blissfully happy and nobody ever fights.
Quote:
So is fighting?! What is fighting?! I don't see what your "so" is supposed to refer to.
Quote:
I do??!
Quote:
Start where?! I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about, but I assume it's another non sequitur. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
18th April 2018, 04:45 AM | #326 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
|
Quote:
I am an atheist, yet other beliefs are a real as mine. The idea that only that which would remain outside beliefs, is reality, is absurd. My moral beliefs are beliefs, they are informed by reason, logic and evidence, but not solely as they also rest on emotions. So according to you, or rather your quote from Phillip K. Dick we start by being not able to agree on what reality is. That means that we have a long way to go, because e.g. you didn't know what the fallacy of nirvana is. Also that, humans has culture, is biology and natural. We are so far away form each other as possible. So I will start. I am a moderate, who believe in democracy and the welfare state in combination with aspects of socialism and capitalism. I believe in a secular humanistic society and human rights. Now you state your political view in short form. Then we see if we disagree. If we disagree we can take as many rounds as you like where we explore the differences and go on to see if we can agree if religion and atheism are true/false/not relevant, natural, rational and what not. And if being a human is more than a production of culture or indeed nature plays a role. With regard |
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
|
18th April 2018, 06:45 AM | #327 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
You're wrong. It is a part of reality that you say that you believe in humanity in the moral sense. You say so whether I believe it or not.
Quote:
Yes, all beliefs are real beliefs. No problem.
Quote:
No, it's reality. And it's reality whether you believe it or not.
Quote:
Yes, if you say so I guess they probably are.
Quote:
No, not at all. We may not be able to agree, but not for the reason you seem to think.
Quote:
I don't have a long way to go. When you think so, it's because you believe that I share the intention of agreeing with you. I don't. Your "fallacy of Nirvana" is called the Nirvana fallacy - and I was putting you on.
Quote:
That human beings have evolved to the stage where they have culture is natural. What they do, however, apart from natural stuff like urinating and defecating, even the way they urinate and defecate (in porcelain bowl, for instance), is culture by definition.
Quote:
No problem. No need to get any closer.
Quote:
If you insist, but no need to!
Quote:
Good for you, I guess.
Quote:
No, you are absolute wrong. I don't! Neither long nor short.
Quote:
No, you are as wrong as you can possibly be: We don't see if we disagree, we don't take any more rounds, and we don't explore the differences or go on to see if we can agree.
Quote:
And even if you believe that I've said that being a human being is the product of culture, I never actually said that. When you stop believing in that idea it will go away and only exist in the words in your post and the quotations from it in mine. And even if you insist on believing that I said, your belief is only real as belief, not as reality. |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
18th April 2018, 06:56 AM | #328 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
|
Okay, I misread you. For that I apologize. Sorry.
Now for the highlighted, the joke here is you believe that reality is independent of beliefs. The joke is that you believe that. So you won't do politics and I won't read long links. And we can't agree about whether beliefs are a part of reality or not. Let us check that: You to the effect of: Only that, which when you stop believing in it, remains, is reality. Me: I don't believe that. You: That is not a part of reality. Me: Then how can we talk about it? How does it get from not in reality to reality, because you are in reality, right? With regard |
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
|
18th April 2018, 10:54 AM | #329 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
I was never reasoned into it and saw no reason to believe it on my own. Just another ghost story and I trust we all know those are made up too.
|
18th April 2018, 01:52 PM | #330 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Hi fuelair and thanks for getting this discussion back on topic, instead of another endless debate on the meaning of the word atheist. It would seem you escaped lightly compared to me. I certainly was not reasoned into religion either but was indoctrinated into it. Caused me a considerable amount of grief I can tell you until I found Bertrand Russell. Bertrand didn't really reason me out of belief either, but showed me it was possible to reject it by example. Being quite young it never occurred to me that Christian belief could be in error. The general consensus here seems to be that reasoning someone out of religion has limited success and that because they were not reasoned into it. I have yet to here of someone, apart from GDon, who claims to have been reasoned into religious belief. GDon won't elaborate on his experience however. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th April 2018, 02:01 PM | #331 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th April 2018, 03:12 PM | #332 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
|
Yeah, about that; I do think it is possible - but not usually in the exact way people are reasoned into or out of other things.
Long ago in the wee early days of the Interwebs there was a forum similar to this one, with maybe a bit more of a focus on the atheism/theism debate at infidels.org. Does anyone remember that place? It used to be quite busy, and quite nice. I was a frequent poster there, much more is than here, and at the time I was really into understanding and evaluating the different apologetics for Christianity. One of the more intelligent Christians who posted there was a guy named Jon Curry (I think). Pretty smart, articulate, polite and tried to address all the arguments that came his way. (We had a lot in common!) Anyways, after posting there for years, he disappeared for a few weeks and returned with a pretty heartfelt post letting everyone know that he converted, or reconverted, or whatever you would call it, and no longer believed in a higher power. It was pretty cool and surprising to see. I guess my point is that I don't think these kinds of conversions involving fundamental beliefs happen very often or very easily, but rather more like a time-release medication kicking in. |
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
|
18th April 2018, 03:48 PM | #333 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th April 2018, 03:56 PM | #334 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Found something:
http://www.atheist-experience.com/pe...tt_dillahunty/
Quote:
A substantial brick in the foundations of the notion that reason can overcome religion. |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
18th April 2018, 07:40 PM | #335 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
|
It's a fair demand given the topic of this thread, and I started to do this earlier in this thread. But I deleted those posts. I was pissed off with your comment that "insults are unavoidable", so I responded accordingly. How much useful discussion is possible with someone who thinks insulting ideas are "unavoidable"? Not that I don't mind giving or receiving the odd zinger, and it would be hypocritical of me to say I never do that. But the "unavoidable" part doesn't encourage the idea that any exchange will be positive.
Having said that, I've read a lot of Thor 2's posts, and he isn't particularly insulting at all, so in that spirit I'll explain how I was 'reasoned' out of atheism in my next post. Not sure that is the right way to put it, since I was never reasoned into atheism, but I'll make that clearer in my next post later today. |
19th April 2018, 12:04 AM | #336 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th April 2018, 02:39 AM | #337 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
|
Below I've given my reasons for moving from atheist to theist. I get asked about this occasionally, and I've found from responses that a lot of times atheists have their own idea of what God should be, or what reasons I needed to provide that would convince them that their particular idea of God existed, which I'm sure I can't do. I usually agree that the God that an atheist believes doesn't exist does not in fact exist. I'm happy with my own version of God, and I'm happy to argue about that version. If any one -- atheist or theist -- wants to argue that their particular version of God either exists or doesn't exist, I'm fine with that. Just don't confuse your version with mine!
I was an atheist/agnostic until about age 30. I'm now in my mid 50s. I was never a 'hard core' atheist, I was an 'apatheist', an apathetic atheist. It wasn't so much that I was convinced that atheism was correct, I just didn't really care. I didn't start learning about arguments for atheism until I started flirting with the idea of theism. The arguments for atheism, when I studied them, I found were unconvincing. (There was one book called I think "The Atheists Debater Handbook", which is simply atrocious.) I was brought up with no religion. No-one in my family is religious. We never talked about it. When I explained to one brother that I was a theist, he called me "weird". As a young fella, I was extremely interested in Roman and Greek mythology, UFOs and the Ancient Astronaut theory. When I was about 10 years old, my Dad took me to see Erich Von Daniken who was touring Australia at the time. I stopped believing in the Ancient Astronaut theory and alien flying saucers when I was about 12. But I remained very interested in UFOs as a phenomenon until my 30s, from a skeptical perspective. I joined the Australian Skeptics for a while, and have always considered myself a skeptic. That's my 'philosophical' background. So what made me into a theist? I started reading books about assertiveness training. It sounds strange I know, but it got me to thinking about how life is what we put into it, that either this is all there is, or there is something more. That got me into reading books about philosophy, and then onto Taoism, then into broad Christian apologetics. Eventually I recognised that I was experiencing a kind of cognitive dissonance: on the one hand, I thought in terms of philosophical naturalism -- that the universe is all there is -- but on the other hand, I had come to believe that there is more to life than what there is. I needed to reject one of those hands. I resolved it by declaring myself a theist. Now, going from "there is more to life than the universe" to "there is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God" is a philosophical leap. But I found it an easy step, since believing in such a God gives a grounding in why the universe exists, why being good is necessary, a few other things. It's a good place holder, one I'm happy to accept until something else comes along. It's a leap of faith. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I don't believe, nor have I ever believed, that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus was the virgin-born Son of God. I called myself a "liberal Christian" for a time, not dissimilar to the reasons why Dr Richard Dawkins calls himself a "cultural Christian", but I dropped that label a while ago, since for most modern Christians the defining element is that Jesus is the literal Son of God (though not interestingly for some earliest Christians) That's about it. It happened a while ago now, so the conversion process is receding into fading memory. I've read all the atheist arguments that I can, and I'm still happy with my choice. I'm not sure what could argue me out of my theism. Something awful happening to me? That would be an emotional response rather than a rational one. Something else? I don't know. If you have any ideas, I'd be interested to read them. What I won't respond to are (A) insults (unavoidable or not!), or (B) "maybe" arguments, e.g. "maybe God is bad" or "maybe Zeus exists", or things like that. If YOU believe that God is bad or that Zeus exists, then go ahead. But just throwing things up for the sake of argument is not going to be responded to. I'll ask you to believe in your argument or point when you make it. |
19th April 2018, 05:00 AM | #338 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
I suppose the question is why do you think there's a reason why the universe exists, why do you think it's necessary to be good (beyond the biological imperatives that being a member of a social species such as homo sapiens necessitates), etc?
Beyond that, doesn't the existence of God just change the question from why the universe exists to why God exists? |
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
19th April 2018, 12:34 PM | #339 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
My initial thoughts as well.
From his post I wouldn’t say GDon is a “reasoned theist”. Certainly not intellectually/rationally reasoned. Emotionally reasoned perhaps, if that’s not a contradiction. To be fair I can’t find anywhere in his previous posts in this thread where GDon has claimed to be a “reasoned theist”. Perhaps it was in one of his three “deleted” posts? He does seem to claim to be a rationally reasoned theist in his last post however . . . I can see no evidence that he is, and much evidence that he isn't . . . |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 01:00 PM | #340 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 01:03 PM | #341 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
|
"Necessary" not in a "logically necessary" manner, just as something important to me.
If you believe that the universe may not need a reason for its existence, then fair enough. To me, an "eternal God" is a place holder for why we exist. Could the universe be eternal, thus simply exists? Could be. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, or ask them to accept my reasons. |
19th April 2018, 01:09 PM | #342 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 01:22 PM | #343 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 01:43 PM | #344 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th April 2018, 01:51 PM | #345 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 02:02 PM | #346 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
Thanks for your story GDon. I get the impression you "felt" your way into theism rather than "reasoned" however. (Perhaps I am guilty of suggesting the reasoned thing.) That to one side you are certainly not the kind of theist that I see as a threat .... I think .... because you don't draw on sacred texts, to guide you in your life or guide you into telling others how to live theirs. Do you get any inspiration from religious material? Interesting that your father took you to see Erich Von Daniken. Did he go for that stuff? Was he a believer in any other kind of woo? |
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th April 2018, 03:27 PM | #347 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 03:51 PM | #348 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 05:18 PM | #349 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Which is the best candidate for the property "eternal" or "uncaused cause", a god or a physical universe?
Quote:
In short, we don't know a physical universe exists. It's an assumption people make.
Quote:
|
19th April 2018, 05:42 PM | #350 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
|
I prefer "leap of faith" as per my earlier post, but fair comment.
Like all of us, I get inspiration from a lot of sources. If he was, he didn't really let on. I knew he loved conspiracy theories, though he didn't believe in anything in particular as far as I know. My father passed away almost a year ago today. Since he was suffering from dementia, and it was a peaceful passing, there was more relief than sadness when this happened. What was sad, from my perspective, is what I found when we cleared out his house a few years ago, preparing him for an Aged Care centre. On his bookshelf were books on a variety of topics that interest me, including on UFOs, philosophy, Buddhism, Taosim, even one on the Jesus Myth theory from the 1950s. Unfortunately by that time he wasn't lucid enough to speak on those topics, so I never was able to discuss them with him. I was fairly close to my Dad, but simply never knew of his interest in those things. Guys, whether you are atheists or theists, speak to your Dads if you haven't had a chance to! Ask him what's on his bookshelf. You may be surprised. Don't wait too long. |
19th April 2018, 05:48 PM | #351 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
"Eternal" and "uncaused cause" are not the same thing (not even close or even related).
"Eternal" in the context of this discussion means "eternal existence" (nothing to do with "cause"). Obviously the universe actually exists by any credible measure of anything that exists. There isn't a speck of credible evidence any god actually exists however, so the universe by far the best candidate. |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 07:14 PM | #352 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
And where do you think our senses get the information from with which to "tell us"? Have you ever thought that perhaps it's almost like there's a physical universe that actually exists, that our senses actually interact with, and then send information about to our brain? And perhaps that information is therefore purely related to an actual physical reality? If reality is purely a product of consciousness why do we even need sensory functions at all? At least you've admitted we have them.
Atheism, theism, idealism, dualism, simulation theory, and the like are purely abstract concepts people make up and often believe are more. In even shorter, you're talking rubbish! (at least you're consistent) |
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
19th April 2018, 10:03 PM | #353 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
|
I have to admit there has been a good deal of art and music inspired by religion but I can't say I have been directly inspired by any theistic source.
I wonder how strong your conviction is about the existence of a supernatural entity. Richard Dawkins said on a scale of 1 to 7 (1 being 100% sure there was a god and 7 being 100% sure there was not) he would place himself at 6. I would also and wonder where you are on the scale. Also interested to know if you have other friends with a similar persuasion.
Quote:
|
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard. |
|
19th April 2018, 11:50 PM | #354 |
Student
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 31
|
It's possible with time and patience, but often you need to adapt the message for the hearer. Make it personal and something they can relate to. Documentaries like the one you posted will work for people who are already well on their way of leaving, but for stubborn adherents, you need to deal with them as individuals, not with a general broadcast.
All "prophecies" will prove untenable in the end. The ancient humans really should have found a better way to transmit warnings (which were sometimes based in observation or calculation i.e. Thales of Miletus' prediction of eclipses, not always guesswork. The Abrahamic sects have thrown a wrench into the matter), such as plainly stating what could happen. Fatalism is a disease which has infected various religions, particularly Christianity and Hinduism. |
20th April 2018, 02:51 AM | #355 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
That's fair enough, but it's not a reasoned position. It is, in so many words, something you're choosing to believe because you'd prefer reality to be that way.
Quote:
To re-phrase my point, can you not see that positing God as a reason for the universe to exist just moves the question back one step? The question is still "why is there something, rather than nothing?", you're just substituting a different word for the word "something" in that sentence. Do you have an answer for why you think God exists? If you don't, then why is that more satisfying than not having an answer for why the universe exists? Does it, again, come down to what you'd like to be true? |
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
20th April 2018, 03:24 AM | #356 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
|
|
20th April 2018, 03:31 AM | #357 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
Fair enough.
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
20th April 2018, 07:57 AM | #358 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,351
|
Re the original question - I think we need to establish (if) we are in fact referencing two ideas here, 1) our raw experience of reality, and 2) our interpretation of our experiences.
The question then is, can we be reasoned out of our interpretation of our experiences, where religion and scientific realism are two possible interpretations. Since there are multiple cases of people swapping interpretations, the answer seems to be Yes - even on a daily or moment to moment basis. A back-door assumption in this thread is that religion is an add on, meaning if one gets reasoned out of religion, then one automatically falls back to scientific realism (or some variant). But scientific realism is just another interpretation. |
20th April 2018, 02:42 PM | #359 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
20th April 2018, 02:54 PM | #360 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Present
Posts: 9,278
|
|
__________________
Paranormal/supernatural beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. Make beliefs truths and you get make-believe truths. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|