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3rd May 2018, 02:24 PM | #41 |
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3rd May 2018, 04:19 PM | #42 |
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3rd May 2018, 07:35 PM | #43 |
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Yeah... the whole "genetics" argument. Genetics that only come into play in the last half century, in societies where people have essentially unlimited access to food, eat too much, and don't exercise enough... Also, why bring up weight loss? That's a diet thing, based on the choices someone makes.
Are some people more predisposed to acquiring diabetes? Probably. Still doesn't change the fact that type 2 is rare among people of a healthy weight. Kind of like gout, it's a disease of overindulgence. But good news! It seems that evolution is selecting against obesity, and by extension, diabetes. Besides obese people being less attractive mates, obese women are less likely to conceive, and more likely to suffer complications during pregnancy. |
4th May 2018, 06:32 AM | #44 |
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Is that literally true, the calorie surplus thing? (It may well be common knowledge ; my own awareness about this is only sketchy.) If that is so, then it seems the solution is simple : just keep your calorific input below surplus level (while taking care to get in enough nutrients). Do you think that simple measure would be ample, that no further drugs would be needed?
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This needn’t necessarily be the case. Like I’d tried to express, in a probably unfortunate attempt at a joke earlier on here : Males, men, are able to reproduce much later into life than women. And both life expectancy and general health for humans have shot up in these recent times, when compared with earlier centuries and earlier millennia. Given that, even older males would, nowadays, often be capable of reproducing. Diabetes doesn’t always strike at 55, it often sets in very much earlier than that. I have no clue what the median age might be, but I’d guess (based on nothing more than my own personal anecdotal observations) that it might be closer to 40 than to 55. But even if we take a higher number, say 50 years, or even for that matter 55 years, that does not, for the male at least, rule out reproduction. (And obviously, should the median turn out to be 45 years, say, instead of 55, then the prospects for the male to reproduce become that much stronger, that much likelier.)
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Are we sure of this? I’m no evolutionary biologist, just an amateur -- in fact not even that, I’m just a sketchily informed dabbler in these discussions -- so absolutely I could be wrong, wholly wrong. But my understanding is that mutations are passed on from generation to generation. So, if the diabetes gene (if I may call it that) is indeed of benefit, then it may well have already, in these few decades, started getting passed on successfully. Perhaps this isn’t measurable yet, because as you say this is so very recent : but could it be that the process has already started, and may become evident two or three (or ten) generations down the line? For that matter, might it be that this has already started making itself felt? Perhaps we can actually measure this, already (even if we cannot actually isolate this effect)? Perhaps the higher incidence of diabetes at this time (than in other and earlier times) has in some measure something to do with this? Sure, there are a host of other factors, but can we say for sure that this also (the successful passing of the genes) might not be one factor, among others, for the explosion of diabetes cases in our times? I have no view about whether diabetes really is a thing in terms of evolution (I don’t have enough subject knowledge to form my own view), but I’d be interested to know if you (or anyone else) can say with certainty that such relatively recent trends are definitely outside the scope of what might influence evolution. My instinctive view, my (ill-informed) intuition, says otherwise. |
4th May 2018, 09:01 AM | #45 |
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Yes it does work, and in the case of my mother it took the loss of her foot, two heart attacks and another seven years for her to actually engage in controlling her diet.
Controlling diets can be difficult even when the individual is interested in it. Then the low cost of processed carbohydrates impacts others, also out bodies have many interesting mechanism that make processed carbohydrates seem preferable. |
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4th May 2018, 11:10 AM | #46 |
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Type 2 diabetes: What is the average age of onset? (Medical News Today, May 10, 2017) |
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4th May 2018, 11:18 AM | #47 |
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Two very recent studies:
A carbohydrate-reduced high-protein diet acutely decreases postprandial and diurnal glucose excursions in type 2 diabetes patients. Effect of dietary carbohydrate restriction on glycemic control in adults with diabetes: A systematic review and meta-analysis. And a very recent Danish study: Vægttab før puberteten reducerer risikoen for type2 diabetes, "Weight loss before puberty reduces the risk of type-2 diabetes" ETA: I found the Danish study in English:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th May 2018, 11:33 AM | #48 |
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what about type 1 diabetes, that generally killed people before they reproduced in the past. Without inject able insulin there would be few adult type 1 diabetics reproducing.
why the hell is that still around? |
4th May 2018, 12:53 PM | #49 |
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Interesting is a fair description..
Insulin enhances striatal dopamine release by activating cholinergic interneurons and thereby signals reward I discussed it in this thread also.. |
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4th May 2018, 01:17 PM | #50 |
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No idea! Random mutations? It was a real killer!
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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4th May 2018, 02:05 PM | #51 |
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4th May 2018, 02:28 PM | #52 |
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4th May 2018, 03:48 PM | #53 |
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Way back when I read E O Wilson's Sociobiology, he had a discussion of ways that genes for apparently disadvantageous traits could remain in the gene pool. Included were I think 5 or 6 mechanisms, including genetic drift, new mutations that continue to replenish the gene, genes that are beneficial when possessing a single copy but disadvantageous when possessing two copies (like sickle cell anemia), and some others that I'm not remembering. I found the discussion quite eye opening.
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4th May 2018, 07:10 PM | #54 |
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Type 1 is an auto-immune disease, where in you immune system attacks the beta cells in your pancreas. Beta cells produce insulin. Other than the high sugars, totally different disease tahn T2. But there are genes for T1 too.
And fyi, I have been T2 since my mid 20s. 40 years now. And big but not obese as a youngster. I was getting some acromegaly symptoms BEFORE turning obese and diabetic. Which in m,y mind makes me thing Insulin Resistance as a genetic thing, see the OP. |
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5th May 2018, 12:54 AM | #55 |
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This guy, professor Arne Astrup, is the leader of the Copenhagen University Institute of Nutrition, Exercise and Sports, and in Dansk Skeptica we have an excellent cooperation with him whenever breatharianism rears its ugly face: He always lets us repeat his offer to have their claims tested at the institute! (So far, they've never returned our calls!) For a couple of years, Arne Astrup and his team(s) have known and documented that recently diagnosed diabetes can be cured with diet and exercise:
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The problem is that pharma giant Novo Nordisk, a producer of insulin, also has a ‘charitable’ branch, Novo Nordisk Foundation, which supports research in diabetes treatment. It has financed several centers for diabetes treatment in Denmark, but since there’s not a lot of profit for shareholders in teaching people to diet and exercise, they focus exclusively on the medicinal treatment of diabetes type 2!!! That’s Big Pharma for you. Diabetes type 2 and evolution: How Type 2 Diabetes Survived Evolution (Science Life, Mar. 7, 2013) The Evolutionary Benefit of Insulin Resistance (Pub Med, Dec. 31, 2012) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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5th May 2018, 07:12 AM | #56 |
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I’m sorry about your mother, David, and hope she’s doing better now. Just to clarify, in your mother’s case, did she finally shift to a less-than-surplus diet, calorie-wise, and was this enough to take care of her situation, the diabetes part I mean, even in that advanced stage? Or does she need to take medication for her diabetes, over and above her changed diet? |
5th May 2018, 07:14 AM | #57 |
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Thanks for the link, dann. They give out the average age as 54. Of course, there are qualifications : this applies only to US, to being with ; plus they talk about differences between age of onset and diagnosis. But the short answer is 54. That would mean, I suppose, that passing this on to the next generation becomes far less likely. You can technically procreate at 54 if you’re a man, but in practice probably not so much, not in large enough numbers for this to make a difference. |
5th May 2018, 07:20 AM | #58 |
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The evidence seems clear enough there. A low-carb diet is definitely good for you if you have diabetes. Thanks for posting those links. This part, that a low-sugar low-carb diet is good for you if you have diabetes, is common knowledge I suppose, even among those who, like me, don’t really know too much about this issue. But if a low-carolie sub-surplus diet (low-carb, certainly, but sub-surplus in calorie terms, that added qualification seems crucial) is enough to take care of diabetes, and over time removes the need for medication, well then this is most certainly not common knowledge : at least, I do know people who have diabetes, and none of them follow or, so far as I know, are even aware of this option. |
5th May 2018, 07:22 AM | #59 |
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5th May 2018, 07:52 AM | #60 |
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But remember that exercise is also extremely important if you want to get rid of diabetes or pre-diabetes.
And it appears to be one of those cases where alt. med. might be right: Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about this! (But if you're pushing homeopathic remedies for diabetes or similar nonsense, that's one thing they have in common!) Exercise prescription for patients with type 2 diabetes and pre-diabetes: A position statement from Exercise and Sport Science Australia (Journal of Science in Medicine and Sport, Jan. 2012, Volume 15, Issue 1, Pages 25–31) |
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5th May 2018, 09:55 AM | #61 |
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It wasn't a joke. If you are looking for evolutionary history, the maybe two generations with birth control are insignificant.
Without birth control the population will increase until constrained by either starvation, predation/war or disease. Historically, populations would have been on the edge of famine, unless something else had previously depleted the population or some new resources became available, whereupon the population would grow quickly until it hits its new limits. There was plenty of scope for quick population increases - if a couple had ten children but eight died before they had children, a reduction in child mortality due to easier availability of food could have a huge effect. In some ways this is what happened with the European population of the New World, especially North America. |
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7th May 2018, 06:19 AM | #62 |
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Big pharma not wanting people to know about this would be a probably the explanation for why people aren’t widely aware that Type 2 Diabetes can be effectively managed without medication, by going specifically with a sub-surplus diet. (Provided that is true -- but is it? I don't see anyone, any research I mean, actually saying that. But then I haven't really looked myself, yet.) I don’t want to derail this thread by talking any further about this here : but unlike many of the things we discuss here, this is of far more than just academic interest. I think I’ll go dig around a bit around this, see what I can find. |
7th May 2018, 06:23 AM | #63 |
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I could infer what you’re saying here from your earlier post, other than the birth control part, but I’d imagined you were joking when you said that! So you’re saying we’ve evolved to cope with famine-like conditions, but evolution hasn’t equipped us very well to deal with times of ease and plenty, right? That’s an interesting thought! What other difficulties, other than Type 2 diabetes, might our current times of plenty be exposing us to, then, I wonder? (Obesity, for one, of course. But of course they’re related, those two, diabetes and obesity.) Re. what you say about birth control, I’ll repeat what I’d asked earlier of another poster here : Are we sure that the two or so generations that have known extensive and effective use of birth control aren’t, in fact, enough to already have started the passing on of those genes? (I suppose I mean the principle of the thing, rather than about diabetes specifically -- this thread seems to indicate that Type 2 diabetes is unlikely to be a mutation that is passed on.) After all, how many generations would it take for a mutation to take hold, so to say, to actually start being passed on? Wouldn’t two further generations, or even just one generation following some mutation, be ample? |
7th May 2018, 08:28 AM | #64 |
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7th May 2018, 08:30 AM | #65 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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7th May 2018, 09:01 AM | #66 |
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They are getting there, but they are obviously not happy about it, so in this one, for instance, they recommend both a healthy diet and exercise, but they don't tell us that this is actually enough for large groups of pre-diabetes and early-stage type-2 diabetic patients: that they can cure themselves without medicine! Instead, it becomes a question of making the medicinal solution more efficient!
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Instead of following this advice, you should find out which blood-sugar group you belong to. In many cases, you may not need medicine at all! In Denmark, fortunately, the public-service TV station has done much to promote the blood-sugar diet. |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2018, 11:29 AM | #67 |
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I don't really like the phrase "evolved to" - it sounds a bit teleological (although it is hard to avoid). However, apart from that, then basically yes.
Up to the last half century, pretty much all of Even if they did - as long as any adverse affects occur too late to hinder the the organism's grandchildren's reproductive success, then there would be no selective pressure *against* the trait anyway.
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What is the selection pressure? Ten generations ago, an average couple might have had just over four grandchildren that survived to adulthood. Now it might be just under four in some parts of the world. In between there would have been far more breeding grandchildren as the industrial and agrarian revolutions increased the number of surviving offspring, as well as the improved sanitation and medicine (I'd say these are less important, as well-nourished people are far better at surviving an infection, whilst someone without an infection can still be killed by starvation). The weaker the selection pressure, the more generations you need to evolve a trait. I am struggling to see what trait is selected for with birth control - possibly not using it, or being medically resistant to certain techniques. However, I would think that would be a very weak selective pressure. As an aside, one might argue that there was some type of birth control practised by certain families in even medieval times - there was a reason lots of younger offspring of minor gentry ended up as monks or nuns. Infanticide was also practised in many societies. |
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7th May 2018, 12:23 PM | #68 |
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The Lamarckian theory of evolution says that the parents who use birth control would have sterile children.
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7th May 2018, 12:30 PM | #69 |
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I love this Quora question.
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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7th May 2018, 01:36 PM | #70 |
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Not necessarily sub-surplus, but low carb, definitely..
A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes
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8th May 2018, 06:35 AM | #71 |
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8th May 2018, 06:38 AM | #72 |
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8th May 2018, 06:44 AM | #73 |
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Lovely link, thanks for sharing. Of course, it says "reduced medication", and also "substantially reduced medication", never 'medication entirely discontinued', but I suppose they were simply being careful. And of course, reduction of medication itself is so much better than stuffing yourself every day with pills (which is what people do in practice). Yeah, the ketogenic diet I'm familiar with. This sub-calorific-surplus diet that came up here was new to me, but I have friends (more fanatically committed to the body beautiful and to fitness in general than I am) who are into the Warrior Diet, and who swear by keto. |
8th May 2018, 08:02 AM | #74 |
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8th May 2018, 01:04 PM | #75 |
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12th May 2018, 12:19 AM | #76 |
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Another reason why it’s a good idea to try to cure diabetes type-2 by dieting and exercising:
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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12th May 2018, 07:25 AM | #77 |
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You’re right. Discontinued, yes, like you say -- and in as many as a third of the subjects, as they clarify elsewhere. My bad! Keto diets are something we'd do well to take note of, it seems, and not just as some interesting piece of trivia, but as something we might try out ourselves. This particular dietary fad seems to be more than just another fad! |
12th May 2018, 10:34 AM | #78 |
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Keto gets a lot of bad rap from the doom and gloom crowd..
They need to ask " what are the physiological downsides, compared to being obese and diabetic ? " .. I consider any long-term ketogenic diet to be extreme, with the possibility of adverse effects if not controlled for. Low carb and high fat can be very effective for controlling obesity and diabetes also.. By ' high fat ', I do not mean excess calories; I mean high in proportion to carbohydrates. A lot of people don't' consider that between protein, fats and carbohydrates, only carbohydrates are not essential for life and health.. |
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13th May 2018, 05:22 AM | #79 |
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Problem is that there is not the one diabetes gene. It takes a confluence of several to cause the grief. Which allows for much individual variation of disease and side effects.
For example, lets say there common gene variants that at the root of my disease. Two are each in 50% of the population, two more are each in ten. 50% x 50% x 10% x 10%, and my combination is in only .25%, or 1 in 400. ( The same concept probably holds true for many many disease states- arthritis ? arteries? eczema? blue eyes? Democrats? ) One of my variants has to do with grehlin. I call it the "Voracious appetite gene". It's not uncommon, it just makes it hard for us to "just eat less". Doable, but hard. Add in an "insulin receptor anomaly", and you have diabetes. Evolution wise, each of those variants may have an advantage. It's only the combination that causes malaise. |
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13th May 2018, 05:27 AM | #80 |
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