IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th May 2018, 03:02 PM   #1
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Religion's Impact On You - And Those You Care About.

There are some atheist posters here who are at pains to show how cool they are with religion. As ynot put it in another thread, they want to show themselves as being all "touchy feely" with the faithful, and not concerned about the ongoing influence of religious institutions. Some even seem to portray the notion that there is virtue in this mind set. I am not numbered in this group.

I am not anti theist, (despite being labeled as such by TBD repeatedly), but most definitely anti theism, and regard theists as the biggest victims of theism, thereby deserving our sympathy.

As a straight male living in Australia the impact of theism on me personally is less than if I were homosexual, female, or living in the Middle East for example. None the less I have empathy for these others and can sense their pain.

Not wanting to provide a big list, (thus leaving room for others), I will name just a couple of Impacts of Religion that bother me:

- Retardation of stem cell research.
- Stopping the progress toward voluntary euthanasia.
- Denying women the right of abortion.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 06:30 PM   #2
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 7,144
I've always taken the spiritual quest as an individual and very personal process. In my view it's the responsibility of a person to make of whatever religious tradition ze associates with an instrument of hir own. The person who just believes and obeys what is handed to hir has a piss poor spiritual life.

The Fundamentalist sorts tell me this attitude is "arrogance," because the individual has no place evaluating or questioning religious authority. As far as I'm concerned, I believe this attitude to be very unspiritual and a kind of "unpardonable sin."

No surprise when location permits I attend Unitarian Universalist churches.

I tend to let others have their process and don't feel it my place to push mine on them. So I have friends of a spectrum of religious beliefs.

One was formerly a Southern Baptist missionary and minister. Over the years we've had many discussions, and though he is decidedly a Christian, we have a lot in common spiritually speaking.

I say he was formerly a Baptist. He was no longer able to bow to the religious authorities. As for the three points the OP finds most Christians obstructing, S is supportive. His spirituality hasn't the anti-life elements that so-called "pro-life" is based upon.

While he's still able to package his spiritual insight in Christianity. I couldn't. I could no longer force fit the Sacred into what I can only see now as an idolatrous theology. It's too big, too full for God.

Anyway I tend to give each individual hir own religion or anti-religion.
I'll share my insights and criticisms of religious teachings at the risk of being called "arrogant," but I feel no compulsion to be a proselytizer or a guru.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 07:20 PM   #3
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,963
It's been a while since it has had a direct impact on me personally, but when I lived in New York state they had "blue laws" that meant you couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays before noon. I remember because I went shopping one morning for supplies for the afternoon (I wasn't planning to start drinking in the morning, just finish my shopping in the morning). The lady at the cash register of course refused to sell me beer and gave my a dirty look like I was trying to do something wrong. I honestly hadn't been aware and was just shopping there not realizing that you couldn't buy beer on Sundays before noon.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 07:37 PM   #4
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Not wanting to provide a big list, (thus leaving room for others), I will name just a couple of Impacts of Religion that bother me:

- Retardation of stem cell research.
- Stopping the progress toward voluntary euthanasia.
- Denying women the right of abortion.

I think you're confusing "religion" with "certain specific religions." I was raised as a Conservative Jew and we're currently in favor of stem cell research and reproductive rights. The Conservative movement (in the US, at least) has grown to embrace all sorts of things from tattoos to gay marriage.

You do have to call your grandmother at least once a week. Also, there's a lot of pressure to vote for Natalie Portman every time she gets nominated for something. But assuming your grandmother is dead and you're not a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, it's a pretty easy job.

Seriously, though, it really sounds like your problem is more with the current power of the Catholic Church (and, I guess, the rise of fundamentalism in Muslim nations) than with the concept of religion itself.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 07:43 PM   #5
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's been a while since it has had a direct impact on me personally, but when I lived in New York state they had "blue laws" that meant you couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays before noon. I remember because I went shopping one morning for supplies for the afternoon (I wasn't planning to start drinking in the morning, just finish my shopping in the morning). The lady at the cash register of course refused to sell me beer and gave my a dirty look like I was trying to do something wrong. I honestly hadn't been aware and was just shopping there not realizing that you couldn't buy beer on Sundays before noon.

The actual reasoning behind this is far more fascinating than mere religion. Many liquor stores in New York are family-owned businesses. Reducing the hours in which alcohol sales are allowed let those shop owners spend that time at home. Unrestricted liquor sales greatly benefit large chains and supermarkets, which are open anyway.

Still, NY was far better than when I lived in Georgia. At exactly 11:59 p.m. Saturday night, the bars turned their lights on and threw you out. The first time it happened, I thought it was a joke.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 07:57 PM   #6
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There are some atheist posters here who are at pains to show how cool they are with religion. As ynot put it in another thread, they want to show themselves as being all "touchy feely" with the faithful, and not concerned about the ongoing influence of religious institutions. Some even seem to portray the notion that there is virtue in this mind set. I am not numbered in this group.

I am not anti theist, (despite being labeled as such by TBD repeatedly), but most definitely anti theism, and regard theists as the biggest victims of theism, thereby deserving our sympathy.

As a straight male living in Australia the impact of theism on me personally is less than if I were homosexual, female, or living in the Middle East for example. None the less I have empathy for these others and can sense their pain.

Not wanting to provide a big list, (thus leaving room for others), I will name just a couple of Impacts of Religion that bother me:

- Retardation of stem cell research.
- Stopping the progress toward voluntary euthanasia.
- Denying women the right of abortion.
You should be more concerned with nationalism. The notion "my country, right or wrong" has caused more harm than all religions combined.

If I had to pick between living in some unknown theocracy and some unknown atheist regime, I would pick the theocracy every time. Theocracies are at least somewhat accountable to religious leaders representing the masses, and you can blend in, by pretending. Atheist regimes though? Good luck. You just have to hope they didn't pick your farm to confiscate, or your profession to liquidate, or your arrest to make the KGB's quota.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 08:35 PM   #7
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You should be more concerned with nationalism. The notion "my country, right or wrong" has caused more harm than all religions combined.

If I had to pick between living in some unknown theocracy and some unknown atheist regime, I would pick the theocracy every time. Theocracies are at least somewhat accountable to religious leaders representing the masses, and you can blend in, by pretending. Atheist regimes though? Good luck. You just have to hope they didn't pick your farm to confiscate, or your profession to liquidate, or your arrest to make the KGB's quota.
and the excluded middle? the bit where nationalism is most common?
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 08:47 PM   #8
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,231
I'm not religious at all but I am convinced that what appears to be miraculous doesn't have an identifiable explanation at this point in time.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 09:52 PM   #9
Egg
Graduate Poster
 
Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,573
Personally, I'd say my biggest takeaways from a fairly religious upbringing were:
Love your neighbour (and everyone is your neighbour)
Show kindness to strangers
Empathy for the worst off and the persecuted
Violence begets violence
Be slow to judgement

...and I met a lot of of very special people.

That's not to say I don't recognise the ugliness of religion used as a political tool or that people attempt to find religious justifications to back up their bigotry or that dogmatic interpretations of religion often put rules above people. But the thread title sounded more personal that that.
__________________

"That's the thing with eggs: It's all about chicks and getting laid." - Wuschel
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg" - Samuel Butler
“When arguing with a stone an egg is always wrong” - African proverb
“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” - Bernard Meltzer
Egg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2018, 10:53 PM   #10
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I was raised as a Conservative Jew and we're currently in favor of stem cell research and reproductive rights.
AFAIK all major religions are okay with stem cell research. Some have a problem with embryonic stem cell research, for the same reason they are against abortion.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 12:15 AM   #11
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,557
Religion that gets involved in US politics is about politics, not about religion: Evangelicalism is like NRA: a group looking for money and power, using its base as leverage.
Hot topics like abortion and gay rights aren't the goal, they are tests of loyalty for their chosen political puppets. The more these groups can demonstrate their political power, the more money and power they can attract.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 12:21 AM   #12
Hercules Rockefeller
Woof!
 
Hercules Rockefeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,136
On a global scale I think religion is a "cancer".
On a local scale I can't think of a single way religion affects my life effectively.
__________________
Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra
Hercules Rockefeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 08:06 AM   #13
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 7,259
I live in Denmark, and religion really has zero influence on my life. Political movements like nationalism has a lot more influence, though I belong to the population segment that is least affected (affluent, white, and hetero).

It is sometimes puzzling when you meet someone here whose religion means a great deal, like I did recently, when I met an intelligent, reasonable man, and found out by accident that he had been a missionary for a Christian sect (in Hawaii) and his books were almost all about the Bible. In this country religion is strictly a private matter, so I did not ask him about it, nor did he volunteer anything that was not relevant.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 09:19 AM   #14
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,797
I have a Major problem with all religion, spiritualism, mediumship and firm beliefs in fairies at the bottom of the garden.

As soon as we allow anti-reality, magical thinking to pass without comment, allowing those who, apparently, aren't doing any harm to do stuff just because their magic skyfairy says they should, then you can't refute the magical thinking of those that say their magical skyfairy wants them to fly planes into buildings.

Once magical thinking is allowed to pass without ridicule the door is opened for all sort of religious bollocks to be committed because 'my god says so'
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:10 PM   #15
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's been a while since it has had a direct impact on me personally, but when I lived in New York state they had "blue laws" that meant you couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays before noon. I remember because I went shopping one morning for supplies for the afternoon (I wasn't planning to start drinking in the morning, just finish my shopping in the morning). The lady at the cash register of course refused to sell me beer and gave my a dirty look like I was trying to do something wrong. I honestly hadn't been aware and was just shopping there not realizing that you couldn't buy beer on Sundays before noon.

Yes I think the churches have been active in supporting laws stopping the sale of booze all over. We used to have 6 o'clock closing of pubs in Victoria years ago, and they had a silly law about getting a drink on Sunday restricted to "bonafide travellers" more recently. Still can't buy grog on Good Friday here.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:30 PM   #16
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Look dude, if you want to call me out you could at least be obvious about it and not hedge around the topic.

I've never suggested that religion is a universal good, if that's what you're asking. All I want is for atheists to argue honestly and with accurate information, and without knocking down straw arguments. That's just good skepticism.

For me, personally, if that's what you are really interested in (though I can't for the life of me imagine why), religion was a learning experience. I got out of it considerably before the church I attended swung hard to the right, but while I was part of it I did learn a lot about why humans believe in stuff. It was valuable to my education as a skeptic and If I had my time again I would not change it.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:32 PM   #17
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think you're confusing "religion" with "certain specific religions." I was raised as a Conservative Jew and we're currently in favor of stem cell research and reproductive rights. The Conservative movement (in the US, at least) has grown to embrace all sorts of things from tattoos to gay marriage.

You do have to call your grandmother at least once a week. Also, there's a lot of pressure to vote for Natalie Portman every time she gets nominated for something. But assuming your grandmother is dead and you're not a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, it's a pretty easy job.

Seriously, though, it really sounds like your problem is more with the current power of the Catholic Church (and, I guess, the rise of fundamentalism in Muslim nations) than with the concept of religion itself.

Oh yes todays Jews may be OK with stem cell research and reproductive rights now but where did they come from on these issues?

Personally I don't have much of a problem, (being a heterosexual male as I mentioned in the OP), but I do feel for those less fortunate. It is illegal to be an atheist in some middle eastern countries, and there are people on death row for pasting sacrilegious stuff on Facebook. Women are in jail in El Salvador for getting abortions. In my country some young guys are going through hell because Jesus freaks are trying to "pray the gay" out of them. This has been a major news item recently.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:38 PM   #18
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You should be more concerned with nationalism. The notion "my country, right or wrong" has caused more harm than all religions combined.

If I had to pick between living in some unknown theocracy and some unknown atheist regime, I would pick the theocracy every time. Theocracies are at least somewhat accountable to religious leaders representing the masses, and you can blend in, by pretending. Atheist regimes though? Good luck. You just have to hope they didn't pick your farm to confiscate, or your profession to liquidate, or your arrest to make the KGB's quota.

Well the thread topic is about Religion's impact Fudbucker. Feel free to start thread about nationalism by all means. You can expand on your theories about "atheist regimes" there.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:42 PM   #19
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Egg View Post
Personally, I'd say my biggest takeaways from a fairly religious upbringing were:
Love your neighbour (and everyone is your neighbour)
Show kindness to strangers
Empathy for the worst off and the persecuted
Violence begets violence
Be slow to judgement

...and I met a lot of of very special people.

That's not to say I don't recognise the ugliness of religion used as a political tool or that people attempt to find religious justifications to back up their bigotry or that dogmatic interpretations of religion often put rules above people. But the thread title sounded more personal that that.

So you generally feel all warm and fuzzy about the effects of your religious upbringing Egg - bully for you. There are many who don't share you're take on this however - me included.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 02:49 PM   #20
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Look dude, if you want to call me out you could at least be obvious about it and not hedge around the topic.

I've never suggested that religion is a universal good, if that's what you're asking. All I want is for atheists to argue honestly and with accurate information, and without knocking down straw arguments. That's just good skepticism.

For me, personally, if that's what you are really interested in (though I can't for the life of me imagine why), religion was a learning experience. I got out of it considerably before the church I attended swung hard to the right, but while I was part of it I did learn a lot about why humans believe in stuff. It was valuable to my education as a skeptic and If I had my time again I would not change it.

If it's me you're addressing I am puzzled. Seems a little phobic to be honest.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 03:00 PM   #21
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
AFAIK all major religions are okay with stem cell research. Some have a problem with embryonic stem cell research, for the same reason they are against abortion.

Well yes it is the embryonic stem cell research I am on about. As I understand it researchers are not even allowed access to discarded embryos - left over from in vitro fertilisation programs.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 07:29 PM   #22
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Oh yes todays Jews may be OK with stem cell research and reproductive rights now but where did they come from on these issues?

Where does anybody come from on these issues? I mean, you have ancient civilizations both religious and secular treating women like infants or property or both. And you have other civilizations that were extremely progressive when it came to women's rights. And homosexuality has gone in and out of favor just as erratically.

In any case, the entire human history of women safely having abortions only goes back to the late 1800's. Stem cells weren't really discovered in humans until 1978 and it wasn't until 1998 that human embryonic stem cell research was even possible. I wouldn't put religion at the top of the list of things holding people back. I'd put disease.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2018, 07:29 PM   #23
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well yes it is the embryonic stem cell research I am on about. As I understand it researchers are not even allowed access to discarded embryos - left over from in vitro fertilisation programs.
Some allow access to discarded embryos, others don't.
http://www.pewforum.org/2008/07/17/r...cell-research/

It comes down to where they see individual rights begin. Many religions and spiritual groups are concerned with individual human rights. As the saying goes, "Those who believe in the fatherhood of God must believe in the brotherhood of Man."

I'm a theist myself. I have no problem with people pointing out the dangers of theism and religions. It should be pointed out and attacked, because the danger is there. But if you want to balance that out with the impact on people's lives, you will be amazed at how much staggering good is done by religious people. Recently I became peripherally involved with a group called "Initiatives of Change" (previously called 'Moral Re-Armament'), and I was amazed at their history. From here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Re-Armament
Moral Re-Armament (MRA) was an international moral and spiritual movement that, in 1938, developed from American minister Frank Buchman's Oxford Group. Buchman headed MRA for 23 years until his death in 1961. In 2001 the movement was renamed Initiatives of Change...

In 1938 Europe was rearming militarily. Frank Buchman, who had been the driving force behind the Oxford Group, was convinced that military rearmament alone would not resolve the crisis. At a meeting of 3,000 in East Ham Town Hall, London, on 29 May 1938, he launched a campaign for Moral Re-Armament. "The crisis is fundamentally a moral one," he said. "The nations must re-arm morally. Moral recovery is essentially the forerunner of economic recovery. Moral recovery creates not crisis but confidence and unity in every phase of life."...

In the 1950s and 1960s, MRA's work expanded across the globe. Buchman was a pioneer in multi-faith initiatives. As he said, "MRA is the good road of an ideology inspired by God upon which all can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist – all find they can change, where needed, and they can travel along this good road together."...

These ideas appealed to many in the African and Asian countries which were then moving towards independence from colonial rule. Leaders of these independence struggles have paid tribute to MRA for helping to bring about unity between groups in conflict, and for helping to ease the transition to independence. In 1956 King Mohammed V of Morocco sent a message to Buchman: "I thank you for all you have done for Morocco in the course of these last testing years. Moral Re-Armament must become for us Muslims as much an incentive as it is for you Christians and for all nations."[15] In 1960 Archbishop Makarios and Dr Kucuk, President and Vice-President of Cyprus, jointly sent the first flag of independent Cyprus to Frank Buchman at Caux in recognition of MRA's help.
It can be all-too-easy to be cynical of such groups, but they are out there, many not for the purpose of creating converts, but to do good. And the good they do is incredible.

The well-off usually don't see the good, because it is more directed towards the poor and the badly-off. So the well-off only see the problems. I fear that we are going to throw out the baby (those with high spiritual principles) with the bathwater (religion), and in the end all of us will suffer.

Last edited by GDon; 17th May 2018 at 07:32 PM.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 09:05 AM   #24
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There are some atheist posters here who are at pains to show how cool they are with religion. As ynot put it in another thread, they want to show themselves as being all "touchy feely" with the faithful, and not concerned about the ongoing influence of religious institutions. Some even seem to portray the notion that there is virtue in this mind set. I am not numbered in this group.

I am not anti theist, (despite being labeled as such by TBD repeatedly), but most definitely anti theism, and regard theists as the biggest victims of theism, thereby deserving our sympathy.

As a straight male living in Australia the impact of theism on me personally is less than if I were homosexual, female, or living in the Middle East for example. None the less I have empathy for these others and can sense their pain.

Not wanting to provide a big list, (thus leaving room for others), I will name just a couple of Impacts of Religion that bother me:

- Retardation of stem cell research.
- Stopping the progress toward voluntary euthanasia.
- Denying women the right of abortion.

I certainly used to foam at the mouth and fall over at the mention of conventional Xian religion and Islam.

Now I have a slightly more nuanced approach:
- bigots are bigots regardless of the source of their bigotry
- ******** are ******** regardless of excuse they make for being ********

I believe that we need to hold individuals and institutions responsible for the harm they directly cause others.

Now unfortunately my beloved country is currently allowing people to be bigots and ******** in the name of 'religious freedom' which is **** and totally ********** up
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 09:17 AM   #25
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
I certainly used to foam at the mouth and fall over at the mention of anti-theists and anti-religion zealots

Now I have a slightly more nuanced approach:

- bigots are bigots regardless of the source of their bigotry
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 09:54 AM   #26
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,628
The notion that religion is a monolithic concept, or that it has a singular effect on everyone that has one, is completely at odds with reality.

Therefore, I question the premise of the question "what impact religion has had on _____" - many different religions have had many different effects. There's no one answer.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 11:00 AM   #27
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I certainly used to foam at the mouth and fall over at the mention of anti-theists and anti-religion zealots

Now I have a slightly more nuanced approach:

- bigots are bigots regardless of the source of their bigotry
Exactly!
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 02:12 PM   #28
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Where does anybody come from on these issues? I mean, you have ancient civilizations both religious and secular treating women like infants or property or both. And you have other civilizations that were extremely progressive when it came to women's rights. And homosexuality has gone in and out of favor just as erratically.

In any case, the entire human history of women safely having abortions only goes back to the late 1800's. Stem cells weren't really discovered in humans until 1978 and it wasn't until 1998 that human embryonic stem cell research was even possible. I wouldn't put religion at the top of the list of things holding people back. I'd put disease.

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I am not targeting those that have religious beliefs that don't impact on others, and I am not even targeting those that do, because I believe those individuals are most likely the biggest victims, of the religion that has them captive. I am on about the religion itself, that encourages folk to do nasty things to to others, and themselves.

Like Sam Harris I am cool with Jainism and am even cool with the modern Christianity that is OK with homosexuality, womens reproductive rights, and so on. I am not going to get upset about a modern day Christians, who are not holding a placards outside an abortion clinics, or one saying God Hates Fags at some other venue. I am concerned if they vote for Fred Nile in an election however.

Just because someone knows a guy who happens to be a Christian, but does not actively promote the bad stuff in "the good book", does not cancel out all the others that do.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 02:36 PM   #29
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Some allow access to discarded embryos, others don't.
http://www.pewforum.org/2008/07/17/r...cell-research/

It comes down to where they see individual rights begin. Many religions and spiritual groups are concerned with individual human rights. As the saying goes, "Those who believe in the fatherhood of God must believe in the brotherhood of Man."

I'm a theist myself. I have no problem with people pointing out the dangers of theism and religions. It should be pointed out and attacked, because the danger is there. But if you want to balance that out with the impact on people's lives, you will be amazed at how much staggering good is done by religious people. Recently I became peripherally involved with a group called "Initiatives of Change" (previously called 'Moral Re-Armament'), and I was amazed at their history. From here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Re-Armament

..........

We probably have more in common than not on this issue GDon but pointing to the good that some religious people do is not the issue being discussed here. "Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things you need religion." Now who said that?

One thing that really got up my nose a few years ago, when doing volunteer work for the Hill Tribe people in Northern Thailand, was the presence of the faith based organisations. No less than 90 such organisations were based in Chiang Rai. I worked with some secular groups and one of these posted a scathing criticism of the influence of the religious ones in the area. Religious conversion caused massive breakdown in many villages. I witnessed this myself.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 02:42 PM   #30
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I certainly used to foam at the mouth and fall over at the mention of conventional Xian religion and Islam.

Now I have a slightly more nuanced approach:
- bigots are bigots regardless of the source of their bigotry
- ******** are ******** regardless of excuse they make for being ********

I believe that we need to hold individuals and institutions responsible for the harm they directly cause others.

Now unfortunately my beloved country is currently allowing people to be bigots and ******** in the name of 'religious freedom' which is **** and totally ********** up

I still foam at the mouth, (but rarely fall over ), when I hear of the RCC discouraging the use of condoms in HIV ravaged Africa, and other such abominations.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 02:49 PM   #31
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I still foam at the mouth, (but rarely fall over ), when I hear of the RCC discouraging the use of condoms in HIV ravaged Africa, and other such abominations.
that would be harmful and is very ****edup
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 02:55 PM   #32
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I certainly used to foam at the mouth and fall over at the mention of anti-theists anti-theismists and anti-religion zealots

Now I have a slightly more nuanced approach:

- bigots are bigots regardless of the source of their bigotry

FTFY
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 03:42 PM   #33
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,174
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The notion that religion is a monolithic concept, or that it has a singular effect on everyone that has one, is completely at odds with reality.

Therefore, I question the premise of the question "what impact religion has had on _____" - many different religions have had many different effects. There's no one answer.

I am asking for many answers.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 06:12 PM   #34
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We probably have more in common than not on this issue GDon but pointing to the good that some religious people do is not the issue being discussed here.
Really? It isn't clear in the title of the thread nor the OP. Just "religion's impact on you and those you care about". As I wrote earlier, the impact will partly depend on whether you are well-off or not. There are lots of charities that look after the poor. If you don't care for anyone who is poor or badly off, then I guess religion has little impact on you in today's society. But you'd be surprised at how much good those groups do behind the scenes.

And the cry went out from the Poor, "Quick, find me an atheist!"

Certainly there are atheists and atheist groups doing the same things. But many religious groups do a heck of a lot that simply isn't recognised, until you need them.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
"Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things you need religion." Now who said that?
No doubt someone with lots of empirical data behind him, and who wasn't trying to make a fallacious appeal to emotion.

Is there a poster child for this? A good man who through the influence of religion did bad things? I'd wonder how you'd established a base-line of "goodness" for that person in the first place, but I guess you know best on this.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
One thing that really got up my nose a few years ago, when doing volunteer work for the Hill Tribe people in Northern Thailand, was the presence of the faith based organisations. No less than 90 such organisations were based in Chiang Rai. I worked with some secular groups and one of these posted a scathing criticism of the influence of the religious ones in the area. Religious conversion caused massive breakdown in many villages. I witnessed this myself.
Sure, and we both agree that the bad stuff should be pointed out.

Last edited by GDon; 18th May 2018 at 06:32 PM.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2018, 10:49 PM   #35
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 87,214
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If it's me you're addressing I am puzzled. Seems a little phobic to be honest.
Are you saying that you weren't thinking of me when you wrote this?

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There are some atheist posters here who are at pains to show how cool they are with religion.
If you are saying that, I don't believe you.

To actually contribute to the discussion, I once had a conversation with a friend, which started with the question of whether religion is a net good for society or a net bad. After a considerable amount of talk, I came to the conclusion that though it can be a net good on an individual, personal level, on the level of society I believe that it is a net bad, basically for all the reasons that antitheists bang on about, and which there is no need to rehash here. I do however recognise that on a personal level, religion can be a source of great comfort and joy for many people. There are of course exceptions, obviously.
__________________
So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours.

Three Word Story Wisdom
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2018, 01:18 AM   #36
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Are you saying that you weren't thinking of me when you wrote this?

Of course, he was! But all he's learned from being called out on specific accusations is to generalize instead. His generalizations allow him to practice facetiousness like this:

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If it's me you're addressing I am puzzled. Seems a little phobic to be honest.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you are saying that, I don't believe you.

There's no reason why you should believe him!

Quote:
To actually contribute to the discussion, I once had a conversation with a friend, which started with the question of whether religion is a net good for society or a net bad. After a considerable amount of talk, I came to the conclusion that though it can be a net good on an individual, personal level, on the level of society I believe that it is a net bad, basically for all the reasons that antitheists bang on about, and which there is no need to rehash here. I do however recognise that on a personal level, religion can be a source of great comfort and joy for many people. There are of course exceptions, obviously.

The concept of "society" is too abstract in this context! Our market-economy-based societies consist of competing individuals and a state that enforces this condition.
I agree with you that many believers are comforted by religion, but I always find that the alleged joy of religion and all the happy-happy-happy Christian songs look and sound ... well, [i]fake(/I]: as if they're trying much too hard to convince themselves and us that they're happy. I guess that's something they need.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2018, 05:47 PM   #37
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,595
Carl Sagan estimated that civilization is @ 1000 years behind where it would be if not for religion.

Call it 500 years. I'll call that 500 years of progress that has been stolen from all of us.
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2018, 06:16 PM   #38
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Carl Sagan estimated that civilization is @ 1000 years behind where it would be if not for religion.
Do you have a quote for that? I know that Sagan thought that Plato and Plato-style mysticism held back science until the Middle Ages. From his "Cosmos" series here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYbqboZoYFg
Plato expressed hostility to observation and experiment. He taught contempt for the real world and disdain for the practical application of scientific knowledge. Plato's followers succeeded in extinguishing the light of science and experiment that had been kindled by Democritus and the other Ionians.

Plato's unease with the world as revealed by our senses was to dominate and stifle Western philosophy. Even as late as 1600 Johannes Kepler was still struggling to interpret the structure of the cosmos in terms of the Pythagorean solids and Platonic perfection...

In the recognization by Pythagoras and Plato that the cosmos is knowable, that there is a mathematical underpinning to nature, they greatly advanced the cause of science. But in the suppression of disquieting facts, the sense that science should be kept for a small elite, the distaste for experiment, the embrace of mysticism, the easy acceptance of slave societies; their influence has significantly set back the human endeavour. The books of the Ionian scientists are entirely lost. Their views were suppressed, ridiculed and forgotten by the Platonists, and by the Christians who adopted much of the philosophy of Plato.
It was only when Christian philosophers questioned Platoism that modern science started. The "Conflict Theory" -- that Christianity hindered the advancement of science -- is a 19th Century idea that is now largely rejected. From Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis
The result is the growing recognition among historians of science that the relationship of religion and science has been much more positive than is sometimes thought. Although popular images of controversy continue to exemplify the supposed hostility of Christianity to new scientific theories, studies have shown that Christianity has often nurtured and encouraged scientific endeavour, while at other times the two have co-existed without either tension or attempts at harmonization. If Galileo and the Scopes trial come to mind as examples of conflict, they were the exceptions rather than the rule.
And if you think about it, it makes sense. Modern science grew out of the Christian idea that God created an ordered universe, one that could be observed and measured, and those observations were regarded as appreciating the work of God. The only time that science came into conflict was when it contradicted dogma, but that has only been in a handful of cases throughout history. Biology, physics, engineering, and most sciences have little to no impact on dogma, so there is no need for conflict in the first place.

So if you want to ask about the impact of religion -- specifically Christianity -- on people today, a debt should be acknowledged to those Christian natural philosophers who founded the first universities and took us on the path towards the Enlightenment and the fruits that came out of it.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2018, 06:21 PM   #39
The Big Dog
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,742
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Carl Sagan estimated that civilization is @ 1000 years behind where it would be if not for religion.

Call it 500 years. I'll call that 500 years of progress that has been stolen from all of us.
Sagan was embarrassingly ignorant of history for so many reasons

https://biologos.org/blogs/ted-davis...e-medieval-gap

For Pete’s sake, buildings built during Sagan’s absurd gap period were not exceeded in height until nearly the dawn of the 20th century.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th May 2018, 06:58 PM   #40
Toontown
Philosopher
 
Toontown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sagan was embarrassingly ignorant of history for so many reasons

https://biologos.org/blogs/ted-davis...e-medieval-gap

For Pete’s sake, buildings built during Sagan’s absurd gap period were not exceeded in height until nearly the dawn of the 20th century.
And the pyramids?

Sure, the Mother Church sought after knowledge and engineering which was deemed useful for expanding the church's power, control, and especially the size of it's cathedrals. Power and control which was used primarily to crush undesired knowledge and innovation.

Still, I suppose it's good in a way that you are intent on lifting the Sagan curse from the Mother Church's head.

But talk is cheap. How do you feel about stem cell research? How about genetic engineering?
__________________
"I did not say that!" - Donald Trump
Toontown is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.