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19th May 2018, 07:40 PM | #41 |
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Good point, Pyramids were also religious structures, then eclipsed by the great Cathedrals of Europe which were not exceeded until approximately 600 years later.
Sagan not only ignored actual progress following the collapse of Rome in the West but also the achievements of the Eastern empire and of course Islam. As I have said elsewhere, if we did not have religion, we would probably be emerging from the hunter gatherer stage. Genetic engineering? I am all for it, thanks Abbot Gregor Mendel! |
19th May 2018, 10:18 PM | #42 |
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NO religion is against stem cell research AFAIK. Some are against exploiting embryos, so they are against abortion and harvesting embryos for embryonic stem cell research. But none are against stem cell research itself. I responded to Thor 2 when he also made that claim, and he clarified that he meant embryonic stem cell research. But why word it as "stem cell research" in the first place?
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19th May 2018, 11:57 PM | #43 |
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Have you seriously never read the numerous verses in the Bible, the Tora and the Quran preaching against stem cell research?
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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20th May 2018, 02:20 AM | #44 |
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Thanks also to the following list (only a selection):
Thanks to all you pioneers of science. We can only imagine their impact on the people today and those they care about! |
20th May 2018, 06:17 AM | #45 |
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And what useful purpose did these prodigiously costly religious edifices serve?
The pyramids, along with the cathedrals you mentioned, are all examples of science being subverted for the wasteful aggrandizement of religious and ruling elites. Those niggardly few achievements came at a snail's pace. It wasn't until religion began to lose some of it's debilitating grip on the human mind that scientific progress accelerated to a pace that was somewhat in line with the capabilities of the human mind. Scientific progress is not a function of religion, as you would have us believe. Scientific progress is largely a product of people having the time, resources, and freedom of mind and action to devote to scientific investigation. Mendel was not a genetic engineer. He worked out the general rules of heredity. He came after the so-called "absurd gap period". But it is good to know that your religious beliefs do not, for the moment, compel you to stand in the way of stem cell research and genetic engineering. |
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20th May 2018, 08:36 AM | #46 |
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Interestingly enough, the dark ages slander was created as part of anti~Catholic bigotry by Protestant “historians” in order to celebrate Protestantism and was later stolen by Atheists who failed to note that it was not only completely wrong but also was riddled with extreme bias against Catholics, but also Orthodox, Muslims and other Eastern tradition.
The fact that rank Protestant propaganda is being credulously repeated by antitheists is the height of irony. |
20th May 2018, 08:48 AM | #47 |
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Yeah, I'm sure it sucks being a Catholic. Especially when every little thing that doesn't totally break your way becomes a new "height of irony".
I'm pretty sure one of the real heights of irony was reached when the Catholic Church blessed the nazi regime even as it was committing genocide. |
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20th May 2018, 09:05 AM | #48 |
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Protestants are theists, so....
Followed by a false Goodwin. |
20th May 2018, 09:20 AM | #49 |
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20th May 2018, 09:42 AM | #50 |
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20th May 2018, 02:38 PM | #51 |
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20th May 2018, 02:50 PM | #52 |
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20th May 2018, 03:08 PM | #53 |
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Why this excessive hostility?
Quote:
How much comfort and happiness people get out of religious belief, compared to how much anxiety and grief, would be difficult to measure and I wonder if anyone has attempted it. We have a number of examples of theists turned atheist who express relief from shedding religion, for example Matt from Atheist Experience and myself, and perhaps there may be others here that can swell this number. On the other hand we have GDon who has gone the other way, but hasn't given us an insight into the happiness quotient experienced. This discussion is somewhat off target to what I originally intended with this thread, but interesting all the same. |
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20th May 2018, 03:17 PM | #54 |
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Can’t say I am surprised that antitheists repeat debunked theories like the medieval gap
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20th May 2018, 03:35 PM | #55 |
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20th May 2018, 05:07 PM | #56 |
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Looks like the reports of the evils of the Catholic Inquisition came from the same source as well: Protestant propaganda. There are arguments in modern scholarship that in fact that the Inquisitions saved many lives. From here:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/...omas-f-madden/ The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state... uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.So it looks like the idea that the Inquisitions killed millions of people is fake news, Medieval style! |
20th May 2018, 08:23 PM | #57 |
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20th May 2018, 10:24 PM | #58 |
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20th May 2018, 11:25 PM | #59 |
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Impact of religion on me, my family, and anyone I know?
Nothing at all. Not a jot. Not a single thing ever at all. It's almost as though it doesn't exist. As I've said before, I don't think I know any religious people at all, other than the local priest who is a somewhat-near neighbour.......but I'm not even sure she is religious. OK, I've thought of something. I have to turn the radio off on Sunday morning when the religious take over Radio 4 for an hour or two. |
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20th May 2018, 11:30 PM | #60 |
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You do know that at the time Mendel was alive the only education and study opportunities available anywhere in Germany (yes, Brno was in Germany at the time) were with the church? If you wanted to do science, you had to join the church. Kind of ironic, don't you think?
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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21st May 2018, 01:07 AM | #61 |
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Raised as a JW, religion played a huge role in my early years.
It kept me socially isolated, with no friends who weren't also JW. It kept me in an abusive step parent relationship, as when I spoke out I was shaming Jehovah apparently, It made me complicit in the concealing of a sexual abuse of another child. I was very lucky to escape( but it cost me my family relationships), but sometimes there's a great benefit in being the black sheep in the family.. It made me the person I am now, and a total atheist. I am very proud that I survived and am a far better person for it. |
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21st May 2018, 01:08 AM | #62 |
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21st May 2018, 03:26 AM | #63 |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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21st May 2018, 07:36 AM | #64 |
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21st May 2018, 07:44 AM | #65 |
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I have a friend in his late 40s who is becoming much more catholic. He is in fact studying to become a deacon. He is the "out and proud" phase where he making an effort to say "god bless" and "his plan" and "feeling his presence" and such.
I am gritting my teeth a lot. It makes me a bit sad too to watch someone descend further into what it took me years to get out of. That being said, he went through a death of his sister, his kids not turning out to be shining citizens, and a major depression. I am staying well away from any sort of challenging of him. The most I might do is try to relate my "immersion into" / "recognition of" nature as a spiritual practice not unlike the spiritual practice he is embarking on. When the rubber hits the road though, I don't think that will really work. Not sure what, if anything, to do. |
21st May 2018, 08:31 AM | #66 |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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21st May 2018, 08:58 AM | #67 |
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I have a couple of friends in that department: one a Bahai and the other a Seventh-Day Adventist. Both cling to their religion as the bulwark holding them from returning to addictions and self-destruction. So I say nothing because I don't want to injure their fragile peace.
Of course that means I give them a lot of interpersonal distance. We aren't really friends, just amiable acquaintances. In the past I did tell the Bahai (since he was keen on making a Bahai out of me) why I didn't buy his religion. He then told me I was "arrogant" for not surrendering to the higher power of God and his prophets. So I suspect that even if I took these guys to task, nothing I said would shake their belief, especially since it's so vital to their self-preservation. |
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21st May 2018, 09:03 AM | #68 |
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Is that true? I've seen it repeated a few times here and there, but never been able to find a source on it. I can find sources for the Pope of the time condemning the Nazis, as well as the Catholic Church's role in rescuing hundreds of thousands of Jews, which would seem to be the opposite of what you're suggesting.
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21st May 2018, 09:07 AM | #69 |
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21st May 2018, 09:24 AM | #70 |
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While I don't disagree with your general point that religion here in the UK is far less relevant than it is in the US and some other countries, I think it will have had some limited impact on the majority of people in the UK. Even those who have been lucky enough to attend one of the many schools who ignore the law requiring a daily act of worship, there's no escaping the fact that the House of Lords has an impact on the laws of the nation, and that 26 of the Lords are Bishops. You will also most likely know people who cannot go to the supermarket at 9AM on a Sunday.
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21st May 2018, 10:05 AM | #71 |
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And beyond that, it's hard to estimate how much centuries of religious leaders, religion led education, state religion etc. has had an impact on society, traditions, morals/values (at an individual or societal level), language and thereby how we think about and perceive things.
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21st May 2018, 02:42 PM | #72 |
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21st May 2018, 02:46 PM | #73 |
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21st May 2018, 02:59 PM | #74 |
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Yes that must be a hard one Sparrow. Your friend seems to be clinging to his Catholicism like a linus blanket. Perhaps you could just draw his attention to some of the positive things you see in the World around you. The work of groups like "The Fred Hollows Foundation" may be a place to start. |
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21st May 2018, 04:25 PM | #75 |
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Religion was a big source of conflict between my paternal grandparents and my mother, and eventually also my oldest sister. It resulted may parents, siblings, and me going to visit my grandparents a lot less often and for much shorter periods in later years than when I was young. And before that, it might also have affected my parents' choice of which school to send us to, just as a method of keeping the peace with my hostile religious grandparents for as long as possible.
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21st May 2018, 04:33 PM | #76 |
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Perhaps. I can't help feeling that at some point the elephant is going to smash down onto the table in between us. I tend to avoid possibilities of conflict by keeping my mouth shut, but that's not right. I should be able to be "out" about who I am too. An atheist and naturalist, who if anything, finds my home, or my soul, as a product of the natural world, inextricably woven into it.
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21st May 2018, 05:14 PM | #77 |
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I read it in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" some decades ago. It is not an unlikely claim. The church has been known to bless organizations and governments it does business with. And the church definitely did business with Hitler.
I haven't found any recent claims about the church blessing the nazi regime, but I did happen upon this Guardian article which reports Catholic clergy, including bishops, being required to bless Mussolini personally: "In January 1938, he (Mussolini) summoned more than 2,000 priests, including 60 bishops, to participate in a celebration of his agricultural policy. Neither the Pope nor his secretary of state were happy, but they feared offending the dictator. And so the priests marched in procession through Rome. They laid wreaths, not at a Christian shrine, but on a monument to fascist heroes. They saluted Mussolini as he stood on his balcony and attended a ceremony where they were required to cheer his entrance, to pray for blessings upon him and roar out "O Duce! Duce! Duce!" https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...kertzer-review The mythical Christian God does tend to leave his servants and mouthpieces in the lurch at times. Even arranged to have his own Son tortured to death, and apparently refused to yield to sanity when Jesus asked about letting that cup pass from him. So when you're wearing the robes and are surrounded by fascists, you're on your own. A high tolerance for pain could be helpful. Or you could just go with the flow and repent later. |
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21st May 2018, 05:25 PM | #78 |
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Is that true? I don't know one way or the other, but would be interested to find out. I did some googling, and when Mendel was a student in the early 19th Century, his university was under state control. Also, what do you mean by "join"? Be a member of a congregation or join the clergy?
No, quite the opposite. See the list of theistic scientists I gave above. The idea that "the study of science could improve glorification of God" was a common one. God had created a clockwork universe of regular laws that could be comprehended by humans, and determining them was a way to worship God. A good case can be made that the idea that the universe was based on a system of determinable laws is why modern science arose under Christianity rather than under other religious/political systems. |
21st May 2018, 06:41 PM | #79 |
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You had no basis for your claim that the Church blessed the activities of the Nazis when they were committing genocide.
In fact in 1938, the holy see condemned the Nazi regime in the strongest language they could, in light of the fact that there will millions of Catholics living under the thumbs of Nazi regimes. |
21st May 2018, 07:10 PM | #80 |
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Ah I found it! The quote was that of Steven Weinberg and I got the wording a little wrong. The correct wording was: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." |
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