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21st May 2018, 07:25 PM | #81 |
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I can identify with this. His religious fervour caused a rift between my brother and my/his parents. His children grew up with the notion that they, (my father in particular), were in the hands of the devil. My nephew even thought he was demon possessed because of his grandfather transgressions - refer 2nd commandment. My nephew managed to pray the demon away though with the help of Jesus. |
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21st May 2018, 08:34 PM | #82 |
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As I said, my source was "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". The time frame, if I recall correctly, was @1943. Obviously, I can't link to that. The link I posted was corroboration that blessings of fascists did in fact occur. As I said.
I've seen film footage on the net claimed to be the Pope blessing marching nazi troops, but I didn't like the source. |
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21st May 2018, 09:08 PM | #83 |
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21st May 2018, 09:19 PM | #84 |
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And it never seems to occur to those people that some of us find the Christian/Hebrew God offensive.
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21st May 2018, 11:04 PM | #85 |
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22nd May 2018, 12:28 AM | #86 |
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I found a fuller quote on his Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Weinberg Frederick Douglass told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.I disagree with his "with or without religion" wording. I'd say it takes any ideology that places the hypothetical well-being of a group above actual rights for individuals, not just religion. The Tuskegee syphilis experiments might be a good example of that. Personal circumstances can also do it: poverty, drug addiction, domestic violence. The quote perhaps reflects Steven Weinberg's bias rather than puts a light on religion. |
22nd May 2018, 02:10 AM | #87 |
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Yeah, this is more what I've heard - that the Catholic Church didn't speak out publicly against the Nazis as much as they could have, in order to potentially help keep Catholics in occupied countries safe, yet they put time and money behind the scenes into helping people - and not just Catholics - flee the Nazis.
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22nd May 2018, 02:19 AM | #88 |
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I'd agree with that.
On top of that, I'd say that people living under a dictatorial regime may fear for the safety of their loved ones and, as such, may do things that they are not comfortable with simply because they value the safety of their own family over that of others. And while that can include things like being a soldier for a dictatorial regime, it can also include things like growing food to feed that army, or being a clerk doing the accounting for the regime. The phrase "the banality of evil" exists for a reason. Good people can do evil simply through having no choice. Beasts Of No Nation is a fantastic film following a young African boy on his journey from nice, happy lad who plays football with his mates, to someone who massacres innocent people as a child soldier. It demonstrates exactly how that kind of thing can happen to someone - how it does happen to thousands of African children. No religion required, just a lack of options. |
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22nd May 2018, 02:20 AM | #89 |
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22nd May 2018, 02:21 AM | #90 |
Now. Do it now.
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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22nd May 2018, 02:22 AM | #91 |
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22nd May 2018, 02:23 AM | #92 |
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22nd May 2018, 03:15 AM | #93 |
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It depends what you mean by "anti-science". Creationists will tell you that they are the ones "doing science" correctly. It is the main-stream scientists who are biased and not "doing science". Pseudo-scientists will tell you that it is they who are the ones doing science correctly. Many social ideologies are built on what they will claim is science. They will all tell you that they are "pro-science".
So what do you mean by "anti-science"? |
22nd May 2018, 05:14 AM | #94 |
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22nd May 2018, 05:37 AM | #95 |
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It does appear to be true that there are fewer religious people in Australia, but not by as much as you imply.
In the 2016 census, 25.7% of UK residents answered that they had "no religion" In the 2016 census, 30.1% of Australian residents answered that they had "no religion" |
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22nd May 2018, 05:43 AM | #96 |
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I think that being raised in a culture with widespread notions of "Truth" based on absolutes led to some near-lifelong misconceptions. Only recently did I realize, IMO, that critique of the shortcomings of inductive reasoning is based on a mistaken search for secular absolutes, when the actual case is that the measure space cannot be known until all elements are measured, a tough if not impossible task. We might call the condition "god-of-the-gaps-itis."
tl;dr: A single black swan ruins prior claims of "all swans are white," so how do we make any claims at all, if black swans keep popping up? Simple: all claims are provisional, knowledge is imperfect and incomplete, and there is plenty more yet to measure out there. |
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22nd May 2018, 11:08 AM | #97 |
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22nd May 2018, 12:39 PM | #98 |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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22nd May 2018, 02:09 PM | #99 |
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I have read about Catholic Clergy helping people flee the Nazis but this could be explained by the notion that good people will do good things. I have no doubt there are, and have been, many good priests. The issue to be considered however is, were they doing the good work as a consequence of instructions from the Vatican, or because they felt compelled by personal compassion? |
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22nd May 2018, 02:24 PM | #100 |
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One of my grandfathers was crippled on the Eastern Front, and the other, well, he never really was entirely right in the head afterwards. Living through stuff like talking to someone while a Russian sniper blows their brains out, or being bombed in the middle of the night by the Night Witches, tends to do that to someone, I guess.
All in a war about "judeo"-bolshevism and stuff like that. Funny thing is, the latter's sisters-in-law teased him about being a jew to the day he died. Not sure if they knew something there, or were just being bitches as usual. (Think Selma and Patty from The Simpsons, except a bit less normal) Does that count as being affected by religion? |
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22nd May 2018, 02:27 PM | #101 |
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All you need to know about the Vatican's opinion on that all, is that the only Nazi party official that was excommunicated during WW2 was Goebbels... for marrying a protestant. THAT one they were sure he ain't going to heaven. Hitler, Himmler, and the rest, well, the jury was still out, apparently.
Gotta have priorities, I guess |
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22nd May 2018, 02:32 PM | #102 |
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22nd May 2018, 03:40 PM | #103 |
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Well I think one would need to know a bit more than that, like the fact that they were previously excommunicated?
https://zenit.org/articles/archives-...nicated-nazis/ and maybe what that means... |
22nd May 2018, 03:54 PM | #104 |
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Ah, yes. Richard Dawkins, that paragon of polite discourse and thoughtful engagement.
Quite a few religious people refer to homosexuals as devil-inspired sickos who are destroying society. Does this mean that you believe that all other religious people should be referring to homosexuals this way too? |
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22nd May 2018, 04:47 PM | #105 |
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22nd May 2018, 05:09 PM | #106 |
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22nd May 2018, 06:10 PM | #107 |
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I like this take in "Mistress of the Art of Death," set in Henry II's England:
Quote:
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22nd May 2018, 06:17 PM | #108 |
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23rd May 2018, 01:46 AM | #109 |
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Fine, have a citation: Reichskonkordat
Sure, the Catholics opposed the NSDAP 3 years before it took power, i.e., at a time when its support was tiny and it looked like it would never have any power. Then when the Nazis did take power, the Catholic Church IMMEDIATELY signed a Concordat with it, which greatly boosted the international popularity of the Nazis overnight. So basically, sure, Beavis... it took SOO much courage to kowtow to the parties in power in '30 and then to the opposite party in power in '33 Also, guess who negotiated that concordat? Yeah, the same Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII. You know, the guy from your PR-job link. For bonus points, if you read the concordat it turns out that the ONLY concern of the RCC there was the privileges of the Catholic church and Catholic priests and such. They gave exactly zero <bleep>s about Jews or human rights violations or whatever. So, yeah, what you did isn't as much a rebuttal, as peddling a PR hack job that lies by ommission. It tells at best half the truth, and carefully taken out of context at that, to make it sound like something entirely different. So, yeah, be careful what you wish for when you ask for references, you might just get it. And they may not be your kind of PR half-truth jobs. |
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23rd May 2018, 01:50 AM | #110 |
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Well... what else did fuel the antisemitism all along? Sure, the Nazis did try to repackage it as a scientific biological race thing in the '30s, but it's not like European antisemitism appeared in the '30s. And it's not like even the Nazi leadership actually believed their own pseudo-science. Hitler himself wrote in a private letter that there is exactly zero support for a biological race. In fact, he was struggling to invent the concept of 'culture'.
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23rd May 2018, 06:15 AM | #111 |
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Folks should I post the list of the Vatican's Military Divisions (None), Chamberlain's Peace for Our Time Agreement selling out the Czechs and "gave exactly zero <bleep>s about Jews or human rights violations or whatever", or Mit brennender Sorge?
Or point out that it is repeatedly debunked anti-Catholic propaganda? I choose all. |
23rd May 2018, 06:26 AM | #112 |
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Really? Someone actually debunked the Reichskonkordat? Well, go on, show us that debunking. This should be good
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23rd May 2018, 07:19 AM | #113 |
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well, your original claim was debunked, you moved the goal posts to the Reichskonkordat (while ignoring actual major powers appeasing Hitler because of course) and then ignored Mit brennender Sorge.
It is fine, your first claim was false and your other claims show a remarkable ignorance of history. |
23rd May 2018, 08:36 AM | #114 |
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No, the claim is still there. None of the nazi leadership was excommunicated by name, except for Goebbels. There was some refusal to give members of the Nazi party sacrament BEFORE they had any power, but even then
- it was not actually an excommunication, nor had any basis as such, since according to RCC doctrine a ferendae sententiae must be specifically proclaimed on someone by a valid authority, or most usually by a church tribunal. And a latae sententiae does not actually permit a priest to refuse communion or anything. - it was just symbolic because nobody was asking to see your membership card when/if you went to church - and again, it all went under the rug when the Nazis did have any real power. In fact, it was on 29 March 1933, less than a week from the Enabling Act (which gave Hitler emergency powers,) that the same Cardinal Pacelli which your PR-job link props, that sent word to the German Bishops to change their stance on National Socialism. Which they did. But anyway, no, I'm not moving the goal posts, you are. And taking them out of context at that. Also, yes, I stand by my stance that the RCC proved that they don't give a flying f-bomb about the Jews with that Concordat. See, the Concordat was finally signed on 20 July 1933. The first two anti-Semitic laws had been passed by Hitler on the 7th April 1933. The Church literally gave zero <bleep>s about it in the negotiations for the Concordat. Right literally the NEXT DAY after the Jews had been made second class citizens at best, the German delegation was meeting the pope, and he didn't even mention it. |
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23rd May 2018, 09:38 AM | #115 |
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You know very well that the secular power of the Vatican was abolished involuntarily in the 19th century. It is not so that the Popes historically had anything against military power. Chamberlain went to Munich with advice from his generals that Britain was not ready for war, and would lose it if it broke out. What else could he do than hope for Hitler's sincerity?
I find Mit Brennender Sorge the only valid argument that you have brought forward, and even that could be claimed too little and too late. |
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23rd May 2018, 10:34 AM | #116 |
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Mit Brennender Sorge was issued by the Holy See in March of 1937. Of course there were 1000's of priests and millions of Catholics living in Nazi controlled areas at the time this was issued.
The Munich Agreement, was signed by Britain in September of 1938. Britain who had the world's strongest navy and sat beyond the English Channel, "could only hope for Hitler's sincerity." While the Pope (surrounded by fascist Italy) did too little too late? Remarkable.... |
23rd May 2018, 10:49 AM | #117 |
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Religion has always followed the morality of the population, rather than leading. It never leads the way, morally, that would be far too risky.
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23rd May 2018, 10:50 AM | #118 |
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Actually, it's more like too little, too late, and for the too wrong reasons.
As I was saying, the Vatican was all for cooperating with Hitler, as long as he was guaranteeing their privileges. In fact, in 1933 when negotiating the concordat, it wasn't the Vatican that brought up anti-semitism. It was Hitler who brought it up pre-emptively. The bishop he brought up his own anti-semitism to, didn't even answer to that, according to the transcripts. After the Concordat: - 10 September 1933: Cardinal Pacelli sends a note to Germany expressing concerns about the Jews who had converted specifically to Catholicism, but has no <bleep>s to give about any other Jews or converts to other flavours of Xianity To put it in context, that -- and the Concordat itself -- happened after Germany had not just disqualified jews from a lot of jobs, but by mid-33 passed the mandatory sterilisation laws and thus initiated its eugenics program. So there was a lot to be worried about, not just about whether there's incentive to convert the Jews to Catholicism. - 1935: the Nurenberg laws. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't give a flying f-bomb. In fact, all that happens at all after that involving the RCC is the German Bishops reminding Hitler that the Pope has placed his trust in him So what FINALLY prompts Mit Brennender Sorge in 1937? Well, if you read it, it's clear that the chief concern is that Hitler isn't exactly respecting the concordat, with regards to the Catholic interests. It only mentions race in one paragraph (namely, paragraph 8) and even then only to obliquely condemn making it into an item of worship. No mention of the persecution or human rights or ANYTHING of that kind. Just don't put more faith in race than in the Pope. Derp. Meanwhile it spends literally more ink than that on being concerned about the revival of old German paganism. And spends three times as much ink reminding people that they can't be saved without the RCC, or about how they need to have faith in the Pope. And so on, and so forth. Some people seem to believe this myth that Mit Brennender Sorge is some kind of condemnation of Hitler, or of the persecution of jews, or racism, or whatever. It's neither of those. It's just a self-serving religious propaganda piece, where the mention of race at all is just a quick oblique jab at the secular authorities. And again, there is not even a mention of racial persecutions or anything, much less any condemnation of that. But maybe it marks a change of attitude? Maybe NOW, in the 11'th hour, the Church is backing out of supporting a monster? Nope - October 1938: Expulsion of the Polish Jews. You guessed, the RCC doesn't give a rat's rear - November 1938: Kristallnacht, a.k.a., the the nation-wide pogrom. The pope apparently considers FINALLY saying something about that mass-murder, but is apparently dissuaded by... cardinal Pacelli. So they're back to not giving a flying f-bomb. Etc, etc, etc. |
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23rd May 2018, 10:52 AM | #119 |
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Yeah, but while* the Catholic Church has a hotline to god, the English nation and all its possessions is pretty much universally acknowledged as an evil enterprise, sailing around the world, stealing other people's countries and killing off natives left right and centre. The fact that you have to fall back on a murderous, genocidal, amoral empire as a point of comparison is pretty damning. (* Or possibly whilst ) |
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23rd May 2018, 10:54 AM | #120 |
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