IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th May 2018, 01:57 PM   #81
xjx388
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
If it is policy that multiple units have to respond to a frickin' parking violation, then that PD's got issues. That a cop was wasting his time patrolling parking lots at 2AM for such violations is equally crazy -isn't that like peak drunk driver time? They do have some discretion in enforcing the law and we are talking about the most minor of violations there is. To call for backup at all seems way out of proportion -IT"S A PARKING VIOLATION!

And before anyone goes off on a rant about the importance of handicapped parking -yes, I get it, but it was 2AM in an empty parking lot. Is that really an enforcement priority right then?
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 01:58 PM   #82
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You could kill someone tasing them.
There has been the odd one where the person has a dodgy heart yes

This doesn't change the fact all of them were idiots
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 01:58 PM   #83
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Textbook escalation of force procedure IMO.

verbal command: show us your hands

refuses to comply

officers physically try to remove hands

refuses to comply

officers physically try to bring down/detain non compliant suspect

refuses to comply

taser.

compliance.

Has nothing to do with the parking ticket.
The problem may be that, because the person was black, he had very good reason not simply to pull his hands out without an explanation, since he had good reason to fear that if he just pulled his hands out of his pockets with something in a hand, he would be shot and killed. It has happened, after all.

You see a refusal to comply, but others might see a refusal to be murdered for complying. Given that there is no particular reason for anyone to comply with anything in the case of issuing a parking ticket, it might well be considered reasonable to see the police as instigating an incident that was not necessary in the first place.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:02 PM   #84
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There has been the odd one where the person has a dodgy heart yes

This doesn't change the fact all of them were idiots
You have a right to be an idiot without getting tased. What did the guy do to deserve that?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:03 PM   #85
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You have a right to be an idiot without getting tased. What did the guy do to deserve that?
I know


That is why I said the cops were idiots
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:10 PM   #86
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I know


That is why I said the cops were idiots
What did the guy do that was idiotic? Break a traffic law at 2am? I've committed traffic violations countless times, much worse than taking up a handicap spot in the dead of night. Everyone has.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:25 PM   #87
xjx388
Moderator
 
xjx388's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The problem may be that, because the person was black, he had very good reason not simply to pull his hands out without an explanation, since he had good reason to fear that if he just pulled his hands out of his pockets with something in a hand, he would be shot and killed. It has happened, after all.
Well, he could just leave whatever was in his pocket there. It's kind of weird not to remove your hands because you are holding something. What exactly are you holding that you can't let go of?

Quote:
You see a refusal to comply, but others might see a refusal to be murdered for complying. Given that there is no particular reason for anyone to comply with anything in the case of issuing a parking ticket, it might well be considered reasonable to see the police as instigating an incident that was not necessary in the first place.
I agree with this; a parking ticket should NEVER have gotten to this point. However, it did. In that case, the best advice for anyone is to start complying and complain later. Compliance may have avoided all that followed.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:30 PM   #88
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What did the guy do that was idiotic? Break a traffic law at 2am? I've committed traffic violations countless times, much worse than taking up a handicap spot in the dead of night. Everyone has.
I didn't realise breaking a law had different levels of "breakyness" depending on what time it is.

Does 2 am mean he only half broke it or something?
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:33 PM   #89
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I didn't realise breaking a law had different levels of "breakyness" depending on what time it is.

Does 2 am mean he only half broke it or something?
Of course there are degrees to violating the law. That's included in the law itself. Accidentally killing someone is not as bad as intentionally doing it. Going five miles over the speed limit is not as bad as going 50 miles over it.

What he did was illegal and so is going 30 in a 25 zone. I consider both to be equally "terrible", which is to say, not at all.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:46 PM   #90
cullennz
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 21,318
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Of course there are degrees to violating the law. That's included in the law itself. Accidentally killing someone is not as bad as intentionally doing it. Going five miles over the speed limit is not as bad as going 50 miles over it.

What he did was illegal and so is going 30 in a 25 zone. I consider both to be equally "terrible", which is to say, not at all.
My apologise. I meant parking illegally.

I didn't realise you were equating the degree of violent death against parking illegally

I get you don't think breaking traffic laws are a big deal.

You must detest the inconvenience of them all
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 02:53 PM   #91
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
My apologise. I meant parking illegally.

I didn't realise you were equating the degree of violent death against parking illegally

I get you don't think breaking traffic laws are a big deal.

You must detest the inconvenience of them all
Are these serious posts you're making?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:00 PM   #92
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...but it did.
Sorry, but it didn't. Why do you keep ignoring what happened between when the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and when he was on the ground?

It's clear in the video that the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and Brown didn't comply. The same officer grabbed Brown by the right wrist, a second officer grabbed Brown by the left wrist and a third officer grabbed Brown in the bicep/tricep area. Brown resisted and got taken to the ground. He's the one who refused to take his own hands out of his pockets and then resisted when the cops tried to physically force him to.



Quote:
He did get a response from the law. So he backed down. The situation de-escalated. It re-escalated in the bit that I quoted in the OP: where the officer stopped listening and couldn't comprehend that Brown was answering his question.
Yep. And then the initiating officer descalated the situation again by walking off and talking to other officers as they were arriving on the scene.



Quote:
Replacing one officer with multiple officers surrounding the subject and yelling orders at him is not "de-escalation."
It's not escalation either.
Brown escalated the situation when he refused a lawful order to remove his hands from his pockets, and then he escalated the situation again when he physically resisted the police from removing his hands, and then he escalated the situation again by resisting further and was forced to the ground.


If you can't comprehend why it's so important for cops to be able to see a suspect's hands, watch the first 30 seconds of the video in my next post.

Last edited by Bogative; 24th May 2018 at 03:01 PM.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:01 PM   #93
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Why did the cop need to see his hands? This was a parking violation.
Why did the cops in this video need to see his hands? It was only a traffic stop.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JitD-ZAdt1E
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:03 PM   #94
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,765
...I don't have a problem with the police checking this out initially. The way it was parked would be the way you would park if you wanted to make a "quick getaway." It was reasonable to investigate. And Sterling did push back at the start.

But once the situations de-escalated there was no reason why the officer couldn't have ended things relatively quickly. Was he robbing the store? There was nothing to suggest that he was. Was he parking illegally? Give him a ticket, or let him off with a gentle warning. That's the job. If this "pisses" the cops off and if the cop then the cop is in the wrong job. If cops choose to "chastise such a belligerent offender" over giving them a ticket and wishing them a "nice day" then they are in the wrong job.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:08 PM   #95
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Why did the cops in this video need to see his hands? It was only a traffic stop.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JitD-ZAdt1E
Because he's black?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:09 PM   #96
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14,076
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Sorry, but it didn't. Why do you keep ignoring what happened between when the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and when he was on the ground?

It's clear in the video that the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and Brown didn't comply. The same officer grabbed Brown by the right wrist, a second officer grabbed Brown by the left wrist and a third officer grabbed Brown in the bicep/tricep area. Brown resisted and got taken to the ground. He's the one who refused to take his own hands out of his pockets and then resisted when the cops tried to physically force him to.



Yep. And then the initiating officer descalated the situation again by walking off and talking to other officers as they were arriving on the scene.



It's not escalation either.
Brown escalated the situation when he refused a lawful order to remove his hands from his pockets, and then he escalated the situation again when he physically resisted the police from removing his hands, and then he escalated the situation again by resisting further and was forced to the ground.


If you can't comprehend why it's so important for cops to be able to see a suspect's hands, watch the first 30 seconds of the video in my next post.
Why do you keep ignoring that it should never have gotten to the point where you think that police violence was suddenly justified. Write out the *********** ticket, hand it to the guy or leave it on the car, and then leave. Period. It was a parking violation, the sort of thing cities often hire unarmed civilians to handle, and it shouldn't require any interaction at all with the driver of a car; in fact, such interaction is undesirable.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:10 PM   #97
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
What did the guy do that was idiotic? Break a traffic law at 2am? I've committed traffic violations countless times, much worse than taking up a handicap spot in the dead of night. Everyone has.

My best estimation of the number of times I've been pulled over by police is between 70 and 80. I have never one time in all those interactions with law enforcement been forced to the ground and tasered.

I attribute that to never once having disobeyed a lawful order and never once tried to push past a cop and ignore what they were telling me to do.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:12 PM   #98
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Sorry, but it didn't. Why do you keep ignoring what happened between when the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and when he was on the ground?

It's clear in the video that the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and Brown didn't comply. The same officer grabbed Brown by the right wrist, a second officer grabbed Brown by the left wrist and a third officer grabbed Brown in the bicep/tricep area. Brown resisted and got taken to the ground. He's the one who refused to take his own hands out of his pockets and then resisted when the cops tried to physically force him to.



Yep. And then the initiating officer descalated the situation again by walking off and talking to other officers as they were arriving on the scene.



It's not escalation either.
Brown escalated the situation when he refused a lawful order to remove his hands from his pockets, and then he escalated the situation again when he physically resisted the police from removing his hands, and then he escalated the situation again by resisting further and was forced to the ground.


If you can't comprehend why it's so important for cops to be able to see a suspect's hands, watch the first 30 seconds of the video in my next post.
I can't comprehend why it took six cops to issue a parking ticket. Does that seem like overkill to you? And I can definitely understand why a black guy, surrounded by jumpy cops, might not want to take his hands out of his pockets.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:13 PM   #99
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14,076
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
My best estimation of the number of times I've been pulled over by police is between 70 and 80. I have never one time in all those interactions with law enforcement been forced to the ground and tasered.

I attribute that to never once having disobeyed a lawful order and never once tried to push past a cop and ignore what they were telling me to do.
70-80 times?? You might be in desperate need of being tasered.


Also, BTW, this wasn't a traffic stop. It was a parking violation. How many times have you illegally parked and been questioned by police officers about doing so?
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:13 PM   #100
lobosrul5
Philosopher
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 7,349
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
My best estimation of the number of times I've been pulled over by police is between 70 and 80. I have never one time in all those interactions with law enforcement been forced to the ground and tasered.

I attribute that to never once having disobeyed a lawful order and never once tried to push past a cop and ignore what they were telling me to do.
Wow... twice is my number, been licensed 20 years now. I'm not a super hi-mileage driver though, maybe 12k a year.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:14 PM   #101
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
My best estimation of the number of times I've been pulled over by police is between 70 and 80. I have never one time in all those interactions with law enforcement been forced to the ground and tasered.

I attribute that to never once having disobeyed a lawful order and never once tried to push past a cop and ignore what they were telling me to do.
Well obviously, if you get uppity, you deserve a beating. You're the second person here to make that point.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:16 PM   #102
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
My best estimation of the number of times I've been pulled over by police is between 70 and 80. I have never one time in all those interactions with law enforcement been forced to the ground and tasered.
...in those 70-80 times you've been pulled over by law enforcement: did on any of those occasions did you tell them your name when they asked you to, and they refused to believe you and accuse you of trying to be a "bad ass"?
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:17 PM   #103
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Because he's black?
I'm sure you think that is the answer.


Or it could be because police officers nationwide are trained keep the hands of anyone they are dealing with insight, despite the color of their skin, so they don't get shot, just like what happened in the video.

Turns out small handguns are easy to conceal in jacket pockets.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:22 PM   #104
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
I'm sure you think that is the answer.


Or it could be because police officers nationwide are trained keep the hands of anyone they are dealing with insight, despite the color of their skin, so they don't get shot, just like what happened in the video.

Turns out small handguns are easy to conceal in jacket pockets.
So if a cop is talking to a witness, they want their hands in sight? What it must be like to be a cop, assuming everyone who isn't showing their hands is hiding a gun.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:24 PM   #105
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I can't comprehend why it took six cops to issue a parking ticket. Does that seem like overkill to you? And I can definitely understand why a black guy, surrounded by jumpy cops, might not want to take his hands out of his pockets.
Yes, six units is overkill in my opinion. That is not the fault of the officer who asked for "a squad".

Videos like the one I posted before are used to train officers and reinforce the importance of keeping a suspects hands visible, the same way they use videos that show cops being killed by a suspects gun when they are not thoroughly patted down before being placed in a cruiser.

I can understand why cops, dealing with an uncooperative suspect, might want him to take his hands out of his pockets. Watch the video.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:28 PM   #106
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
Suspect? Suspect for what?
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:37 PM   #107
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Sorry, but it didn't.
...sorry, but it did.

Quote:
Why do you keep ignoring what happened between when the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and when he was on the ground?
I'm not ignoring that.

Quote:
It's clear in the video that the officer told Brown to let him see his hands and Brown didn't comply. The same officer grabbed Brown by the right wrist, a second officer grabbed Brown by the left wrist and a third officer grabbed Brown in the bicep/tricep area. Brown resisted and got taken to the ground. He's the one who refused to take his own hands out of his pockets and then resisted when the cops tried to physically force him to.
So: TLDR version is "the cops went from asking Brown to remove his hands from his pockets to a full takedown." I'm glad that we are both in agreement.

Quote:
Yep. And then the initiating officer descalated the situation again by walking off and talking to other officers as they were arriving on the scene.
That isn't de-escalation. That's just "wandering away." The subject has no idea why he is being detained, he has no idea why all these extra police are arriving. He has no idea why suddenly he is being surrounded.

Quote:
It's not escalation either.
Of course it is.

Quote:
Brown escalated the situation when he refused a lawful order to remove his hands from his pockets, and then he escalated the situation again when he physically resisted the police from removing his hands, and then he escalated the situation again by resisting further and was forced to the ground.
I'm not entirely sure you understand what "escalation" means. The situation escalated when the officer refused to believe Sterling Brown's name. The situation escalated when the extra police turned up. The situation escalated when the police crowded Brown. Of course the situation escalated when Brown didn't remove his hand from his pockets. I will remind you again that I conceded this in my OP. But it wasn't a "single escalation." It was a series of escalations in a situation where the police had ultimate control of the scene.

Quote:
If you can't comprehend why it's so important for cops to be able to see a suspect's hands, watch the first 30 seconds of the video in my next post.
What on earth makes you think I can't comprehend why it's so important for the cops to see a person's hands? I've conceded this. I don't need to watch your video to understand this. I've probably already seen it.

My point is that the police didn't give a **** about his hands for five minutes. In the opening seconds of the video Brown had his hands in his pocket. They talk to him for minutes with his hands in his pockets. Then in a space of seconds they issued an order and when they didn't get complete compliance they took him down.

There is a reason why the police got disciplined here. And it wasn't because of some fantasy SJW conspiracy.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:41 PM   #108
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Why do you keep ignoring that it should never have gotten to the point where you think that police violence was suddenly justified. Write out the *********** ticket, hand it to the guy or leave it on the car, and then leave. Period. It was a parking violation, the sort of thing cities often hire unarmed civilians to handle, and it shouldn't require any interaction at all with the driver of a car; in fact, such interaction is undesirable.

That may have very well happened, but Brown made the choice to escalate the situation.

As xjx388 asked earlier, why would a cop dick around with a parking violation at 2:00 a.m. when that is a common time for drunk drivers.

I know this is hard to imagine but maybe the cop drove by and saw a car parked longways blocking to handicap parking spots and thought to himself 'that's not normal behavior, I bet the driver is drunk' and pulled in to investigate further.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:41 PM   #109
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Suspect? Suspect for what?
That jumped out at me too. There wasn't a robbery, or a shooting. It was a parking violation, something that probably everyone has committed at some point. Why would the cop assume the guy has a weapon? Wouldn't that imply that everyone has hidden weapons, since everyone breaks those kinds of laws?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:42 PM   #110
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
That may have very well happened, but Brown made the choice to escalate the situation.

As xjx388 asked earlier, why would a cop dick around with a parking violation at 2:00 a.m. when that is a common time for drunk drivers.

I know this is hard to imagine but maybe the cop drove by and saw a car parked longways blocking to handicap parking spots and thought to himself 'that's not normal behavior, I bet the driver is drunk' and pulled in to investigate further.
And then he discovered the guy was obviously not drunk...and had to call in for backup?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:46 PM   #111
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Suspect? Suspect for what?
In the video, operating a stolen vehicle. Brown, parking violation and someone who tried to push past the cop and get in his car while being lawfully questioned.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:47 PM   #112
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 16,041
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
I attribute that to never once having disobeyed a lawful order and never once tried to push past a cop and ignore what they were telling me to do.
I'm curious about the meaning of a lawful order. If you parked your car illegally does that give a cop a right to prevent you from going home? If you are standing with your hands in your pockets in a non-threatening manner does that give a cop the right to demand to see your hands?

I didn't know that cops could just order people to do anything they like and if they refuse those people are to be subject to beatings.

Maybe there's a distinction here that I'm not seeing.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:47 PM   #113
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
I know this is hard to imagine but maybe the cop drove by and saw a car parked longways blocking to handicap parking spots and thought to himself 'that's not normal behavior, I bet the driver is drunk' and pulled in to investigate further.
...I know it wasn't addressed to me: but I have conceded that this wasn't hard to imagine at all. The officer was right to investigate further. But making the decision to investigate wasn't the problem here.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:50 PM   #114
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
In the video, operating a stolen vehicle. Brown, parking violation and someone who tried to push past the cop and get in his car while being lawfully questioned.
Stolen vehicle???
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:50 PM   #115
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
I think something is being missed in the business with showing the hands.

Nearly the first interaction with the police has a policeman conspicouously and egregiously accusing Brown of non co-operation when he asks a question and gets a clear answer. He is seen accusing him of aggressive behavior from the start. Given the situation, I think Brown had every reason to fear for his life. It's clear that the police were spoiling for a fight, and in a fight of this sort, people get killed.

The cop asked for Brown to take his hands out of his pockets. He did not, saying he had something in his hand. At that point, the cops could have asked him what, and could have assured him that if he took his hands out of his pockets as requested they would not kill him. They could have ade clear whether or not Brown should have left the object in his pocket, or whether they would kill him for doing one thing or for doing exactly the opposite. The police have already demonstrated an outstandingly aggressive and irrational attitude. Their subsequent actions confirm it.

Sure the likelihood that the cops were that awful and would murder Brown was fairly small, but I think it's smaller than the likelihood some are suggesting that he would murder them.

I think they fabricated a confrontation by exercising excessive zeal and conspicuously refusing to explain themselves or to slow down.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

Last edited by bruto; 24th May 2018 at 03:52 PM.
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 03:59 PM   #116
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
So: TLDR version is "the cops went from asking Brown to remove his hands from his pockets to a full takedown." I'm glad that we are both in agreement.
There you go again forgetting the part where Brown physically resisted the cops trying to remove his hands from his pocket. I think at this point you're just trolling, or just willfully ignorant by not watching the video in detail.



Quote:
That isn't de-escalation. That's just "wandering away."
You're going to have to explain how the cop involved with the initial confrontation with Brown walking away from the scene is anything other than de-escalation.

Quote:
The subject has no idea why he is being detained
That's a lie, Brown knew why he was being questioned.


Quote:
he has no idea why all these extra police are arriving. He has no idea why suddenly he is being surrounded.
How does that make it all right for him to disobey a lawful command?



Quote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand what "escalation" means. The situation escalated when the officer refused to believe Sterling Brown's name. The situation escalated when the extra police turned up. The situation escalated when the police crowded Brown. Of course the situation escalated when Brown didn't remove his hand from his pockets. I will remind you again that I conceded this in my OP. But it wasn't a "single escalation." It was a series of escalations in a situation where the police had ultimate control of the scene.
Yes, they gained ultimate control only after physically forcing Brown to comply.


Quote:
My point is that the police didn't give a **** about his hands for five minutes. In the opening seconds of the video Brown had his hands in his pocket. They talk to him for minutes with his hands in his pockets. Then in a space of seconds they issued an order and when they didn't get complete compliance they took him down.
Hmmm, I didn't realize it was okay to disobey a cop's orders if you have been doing something long enough.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 04:08 PM   #117
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14,076
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think something is being missed in the business with showing the hands.

Nearly the first interaction with the police has a policeman conspicouously and egregiously accusing Brown of non co-operation when he asks a question and gets a clear answer. He is seen accusing him of aggressive behavior from the start. Given the situation, I think Brown had every reason to fear for his life. It's clear that the police were spoiling for a fight, and in a fight of this sort, people get killed.

The cop asked for Brown to take his hands out of his pockets. He did not, saying he had something in his hand. At that point, the cops could have asked him what, and could have assured him that if he took his hands out of his pockets as requested they would not kill him. They could have ade clear whether or not Brown should have left the object in his pocket, or whether they would kill him for doing one thing or for doing exactly the opposite. The police have already demonstrated an outstandingly aggressive and irrational attitude. Their subsequent actions confirm it.

Sure the likelihood that the cops were that awful and would murder Brown was fairly small, but I think it's smaller than the likelihood some are suggesting that he would murder them.

I think they fabricated a confrontation by exercising excessive zeal and conspicuously refusing to explain themselves or to slow down.
Police officers aren't required to explain themselves, and relying on that makes it a lot easier to flex their muscles and lord their power over civilians. Making something out of absolutely nothing is apparently how some cops get off.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 04:15 PM   #118
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
What's this stolen vehicle thing Bogative is referring to? Did I miss that in the video?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 04:21 PM   #119
Bogative
Master Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,688
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Wow... twice is my number, been licensed 20 years now. I'm not a super hi-mileage driver though, maybe 12k a year.
Yes sir. I spent many years riding Japanese motorcycles on the street. One of my old motorcycles came from the manufacture with two headlights. When low beams were on only one headlight would come on, they used that as an excuse to stop me 40 to 50 on that motorcycle alone. Turns out cops know that it is very common for people who ride those types of motorcycles to be young, uninsured, and unlicensed. And they like to run from cops, occasionally. That's why they targeted me repeatedly.

I had my very own little procedure I went through every time I got stopped. Turn the motorcycle off, put the kickstand down and lean the motorcycle on it, place both feet on the foot pegs, remove my helmet, and place my hands on my hips. That way there would not be even a hint of misbehavior on my part, even before they got out of the car. I found that it actually put the cop at ease when they see you are more than willing to be fully compliant.

I only had one really bad encounter with cops in the 15 years I rode on the street. A friend I was riding with through the main strip in the town I lived in popped a little wheelie to show ooff for some girls parked in a parking lot and a cop in an unmarked car saw it. He told usto the end of the street and pulled in front of us to block us in a parking lot. He then jumped out of his car and pulled his service weapon and stuck it right in my face because of something someone else did.

Unfortunately, I didn't have a bunch of regressive cop haters come to my rescue because my skin is the wrong color.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th May 2018, 04:27 PM   #120
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
There you go again forgetting the part where Brown physically resisted the cops trying to remove his hands from his pocket. I think at this point you're just trolling, or just willfully ignorant by not watching the video in detail.
...I haven't forgotten anything. If I tell you I'm going to the kitchen to make myself a sandwich, I don't need to tell you that I stretched my arms, yawned, pushed my chair out, pulled my socks up, opened the door, walked into the kitchen, surveyed the scene, opened up the drawer, pulled out a knife, grabbed the bread, sliced it thickly because I like thick bread, went to the fridge, grabbed the butter but then dropped the butter because it was hard then went to get the margarine. I slathered the margarine thickly before returning to the fridge to get the ham. I chose to use three slices of ham because I love ham. I pushed them all together, and then I ate it.

Telling you I'm going to the kitchen to make myself a sandwich will suffice. I've watched the video. I know what happened.

Quote:
You're going to have to explain how the cop involved with the initial confrontation with Brown walking away from the scene is anything other than de-escalation.
You are going to have to explain why the presence or non-presence of the initial officer makes any kind of difference to the encounter. Its a really weird argument to make. If, when the initial officer walked away and then we cut to the camera of one of the other officers, is it still a de-escalation?

If a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody to see it falling: did it make a noise? You appear to be arguing the tree falling did not make a noise.

Quote:
That's a lie, Brown knew why he was being questioned.
I would be careful before accusing a fellow poster of "lying." Why did you choose to change "detained" to "questioned?" Why do you think he was being detained? At which stage was the communicated clearly do you think?

Quote:
How does that make it all right for him to disobey a lawful command?
Now hold on a minute. You are missing the point again.

I didn't argue it was "okay to disobey lawful commands."

Please try and follow along.

Quote:
Yes, they gained ultimate control only after physically forcing Brown to comply.
After a series of escalations that they were entirely responsible for, which ultimately lead to no arrest being made because no crime was committed, which ultimately lead to the police involved getting disciplined, which ultimately will probably lead to a lawsuit which may cost the city millions.

So yay them?

Quote:
Hmmm, I didn't realize it was okay to disobey a cop's orders if you have been doing something long enough.
Hmmm, I didn't realize how easy it was to post a strawman, but hey, you do you.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:45 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.