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24th May 2018, 07:27 PM | #161 |
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I'm not intentionally involving the cops with my little stunt.
I'll be on my way as soon as triple A comes and fixes my flat. I either flunked a mechanical aptitude test or just would rather not change a tire if I can pay someone else to do it. Hey, maybe the scofflaw will help me out and we can go get a beer after. |
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24th May 2018, 07:29 PM | #162 |
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24th May 2018, 07:34 PM | #163 |
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24th May 2018, 07:40 PM | #164 |
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I'll try to explain this to you again. When the only officer at the scene who had confronted Brown in any authoritative manner walks away from the interaction, yes, it is de-escalation. As I said earlier, I do not consider the presence of other officers to be escalation. Now if you have proof that the other officers were confronting Brown and escalating the situation, I would be more than thrilled to see it.
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24th May 2018, 07:42 PM | #165 |
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You are absolutely correct.
And they would be wrong to do so. The cops' actions would be indefensible, regardless of the race or ideology of the victim. It's so bloody obvious that this wasn't about the law. It wasn't about safety. It was all about power. It was about who's in charge. It was "you didn't do what I told you" and "I own this right here." No, you don't own it officer. This is America. |
24th May 2018, 07:44 PM | #166 |
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24th May 2018, 07:46 PM | #167 |
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24th May 2018, 07:55 PM | #168 |
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Really? Just how much courtesy would you extend to a police officer who started a completely unnecessary confrontation over a parking infraction? A police officer who is deliberately trying to make a felony out of not even a misdemeanor?
And it's not about courtesy, anyway. It's about fear. Maybe at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, a smiling police officer pulling a black person over to tell them their brake lights aren't working gets the benefit of the doubt. A belligerent cop overreacting to a parking infraction in an empty parking lot at 2 o'clock in the morning? I'd be very afraid. |
24th May 2018, 08:11 PM | #169 |
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The cop was fine till Brown got aggressive. 'How ya doin? You got your drivers license?' That is a reasonable approach. Brown's immediate aggression changed the game, and it was very quickly no longer about his Privileged Princess parking. It became about picking a fight with a cop. And cops like to win that game.
Do you seriously think this has anything to do with race? This is about a damn fool starting a pissing match with a cop who gave it right back in spades. Both were wrong, and both were stupid. Neither showed any interest in race. |
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24th May 2018, 08:33 PM | #170 |
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Ah, yes, the conservative parallel failure.
> People have been reporting UFOs, Ghosts, Bigfootz and Abusive Police for the past century. > Now, with every citizen armed with a camera, plus security cams on ever third light pole, we: a) Have yet to see a clear video or picture of a UFO, a Ghost or a Bigfoot. b) Have hundreds of videos of cops abusing people and overstepping their authority. Congratulations! Off to GenSkepPara with you as you've just disproved the existence of three of their favorite woo-ish beliefs. Now as to Current Events, that'd be a resounding "You Fail!" |
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24th May 2018, 08:33 PM | #171 |
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Why? Even if you take it as a given that complying with such a command comes with no risk, is it really beyond your belief a black man in this situation will have the same outlook? It is not like objects being removed from a pocket or simply fast movements themselves haven't caused lethal force in turn.
If the cops feel like after all the time spent there, surrounding a suspect with 6 other cops and additional backup around them, that instantaneous adherence to a command to remove their hands from their pocket is threatening enough to warrant their actions, then maybe they are a bit too paranoid to be on the force. Especially since his hands have been in and out of his pockets for most of the time there. I'm tired of these random 'fears' cops are drilled with about worst case scenarios in every interaction with the public. If it has led to a quantifiable lowering or violence against police, I want to see the evidence. |
24th May 2018, 08:36 PM | #172 |
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Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. |
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24th May 2018, 08:44 PM | #173 |
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24th May 2018, 09:22 PM | #174 |
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As long as you actually accept a premise that runs so clearly counter to evidence as the above, you will continue to reach false conclusions.
Again, we have Levar Jones, Philando Castile, the girl that was beaten by Officer Barrel Roll, Sandra Bland and Michael Bennett as more famous counterexamples - as well as several occasions of this being done en masse in Baltimore and Ferguson. And we also know that the cop was being openly belligerent. NYPD is famous for demanding that black and Hispanic pedestrians empty their pockets - and then arresting them for having knives/weed/etc. in public view. Sterling Brown's concern is entirely appropriate here. |
24th May 2018, 09:33 PM | #175 |
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Given that it only takes one cop to yell "Gun!" upon seeing anything or nothing in a "suspect's" hand (particularly if that hand is black), mortal terror would be a reasonable response to the demand of "show me your hands." I'd imagine the pressure of the fight or flight response increasing with the arrival of each new potential murderer.
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24th May 2018, 10:13 PM | #176 |
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...do you plan to say anything significantly different?
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De-escalation is a process. Its deliberate, and the goal of de-escalation is to, you know, DE-ESCALATE. The officer didn't walk away to de-escalate the situation. He walked away because he wanted to chat to one of the other officers. To characterize that action as an attempt at "de-escalation" is disingenuous. It wasn't. As to what happened while the officer was away from Sterling: well in just over 3 minutes later Sterling was being thrown to the ground and tazed. So things escalated. As to who escalated? I don't see Sterling doing much more than arguing and standing with his hands in his pockets.
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When did the first officer tell Sterling that he was being detained for this reason? When did the first officer explain this to the other officers?
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24th May 2018, 10:22 PM | #177 |
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And now my standard caveat:
Native Americans are more likely, per person, to be abused by police than black people, fully half of all people killed by police have a mental illness. is racism a part of the issue? Absolutely. Is it beyond that, to police who respond to everything with over-the-top aggression and escalation, along with police chiefs, DAs, unions and fellowships, and now a president and Attorney General who outright approve of such idiotic shows of force? Yes, and this is, by far, more important. |
24th May 2018, 11:26 PM | #178 |
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24th May 2018, 11:43 PM | #179 |
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Yes, and considering the tensions between the citizens of Milwaukee and the police force over the last few years, I would expect nothing less from the police chief to throw the officers under the bus to avoid sparking that powder keg.
When I watch the video, I see nothing that I wouldn't expect to happen to me if I pulled the same shenanigans. |
24th May 2018, 11:50 PM | #180 |
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25th May 2018, 12:21 AM | #181 | |||
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Not paranoid, but vigilant. 39 officers were killed in the line of duty by gunfire in 2015. 66 in 2016. 44 last year. And I'm sure many many more who were shot but not killed and shot at and not hit.
The police training institute at the local university teaches their trainees to keep the hands of anyone they are interacting with visible. Apparently, many years of experience, and a little bit rational thinking, it makes sense to not allow someone to keep their hands in their pockets in case there is a weapon that could be hidden in there. Here is an example in which a cop was foolish enough to approach a robbery suspect with his Taser pulled instead of his service weapon. The suspect was walking away from the cop with his hand in his jacket pocket. The cop commands the robbery suspect to take his hands out of his pocket several times. The suspect pulls out a gun and shoots the cop four times. Maybe this cop should have been a little more "paranoid."
Here's another example of why cops grab the wrists of people they are interacting with when they refused to keep their hands visible. Unfortunately, the cop wasn't forceful enough and he was shot for a misdemeanor drug charge. https://youtu.be/AgDoDKqgr0M?t=475 As I mentioned earlier, these are the types of videos that are used to train police officers on how to avoid being shot. |
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25th May 2018, 12:27 AM | #182 |
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25th May 2018, 12:33 AM | #183 |
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25th May 2018, 01:45 AM | #184 |
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So I went and read the definition of de-escalation on four separate dictionaries sites and not one of them said anything about de-escalation being "deliberate" or a process. Walking away from an escalated situation in this case and having other officers stand near Brown was de-escalation unless you have proof that other officers escalated the situation.
As an example, if the U.S. Navy turns its Pacific fleet back towards California tomorrow and cancels scheduled exercises with Japan and South Korea, it will be a de-escalation with North Korea no matter the reason they do sospace and whether it was deliberate or a process to do so specifically for de-escalation.
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25th May 2018, 01:58 AM | #185 |
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Virtually nothing? I posted three separate videos in this thread as examples as to why it's important for cops to be able to see people's hands with whom they are interacting.
Your affection for wanting police officers to increase the risk of putting themselves in physical danger would be more disturbing if it was less common. |
25th May 2018, 03:41 AM | #186 |
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And that is why the cops were suspended. Cops aren't supposed to get into "pissing matches", and they sure as heck are not supposed to "give it right back in spades". Not only is it bad practice, it could be illegal. You say "both were stupid", but only one of them was detained. Only one of them was thrown to the ground. Only one of them was tased. Only one of them was arrested. Cops can't do that. At least, they don't have the legal authority to do that. Unfortunately, sometimes cops go well beyond their legal authority. It's getting harder for them to do that in the age of body cameras. When there's video of the incident and we can see what happened, we don't accept the cops' word about it automatically. As for your characterization of Brown as "aggressive", I would say that a better description would be "non-submissive". He wasn't aggressive, but he had an attitude. He wasn't all "yes sir" and "no sir". That's what the cop wanted, and when he didn't get it, he decided to show that boy who was boss. He made sure that Brown understood the most important fact about the encounter, which was "I own this right here." No, officer, you don't. Maybe a couple of days without pay might give you time to rethink your concept of ownership. |
25th May 2018, 03:47 AM | #187 |
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You do realize that Brown did, in fact, give the officer his license, don't you? When the officer asks Brown his name, the officer was holding Brown's license and looking at it. You get that, right?
But that wasn't good enough for Officer "I own this." He wanted that "Yes officer" attitude. He wanted submission. He wanted supplication. Well, dude, you can't always get what you want. |
25th May 2018, 04:09 AM | #188 |
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...are you being serious?
It appears you are more ignorant of the subject than I thought. Can I suggest that rather than relying on dictionary definitions, you start by googling "police de-escalation" and start reading any of the links that pop up. I'll give you some links to start: https://boingboing.net/2018/04/25/st...s-of-what.html https://theintercept.com/2017/11/09/...alation-video/ https://www.themarshallproject.org/r...ation-training Its a process. It requires training. It often requires a complete change of paradigm. If you are accidentally de-escalating then you aren't actually actively trying to de-escalate. It needs to be deliberate. Policy. Everyone needs to be on the same page.
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So from what we did see there was no attempt at de-escalation. Nobody tried to develop a rapport with Brown. From asking him to take his hands out of his pockets to taking him down took seconds. That wouldn't happen if the police were trying to de-escalate.
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I stated that Brown didn't know why he was being detained. You called that a lie: and stated that Brown knew why he was being questioned. I said that wasn't a lie: and asked why you changed "detained" to questioned?" You never answered that question. I also asked why did you think he was being detained? You guessed that "I think he was being detained because he tried to push a police officer out of his way and enter his vehicle while being lawfully questioned." I pointed out that at no stage did the initial officer state that Brown was being detained for this reason, and that at no stage did the initial officer tell any of the other officers that "Brown tried to push him", so that it was literally impossible for any of the other officers to tell Brown that they were detaining him for pushing the initial officer out of the way. So why am I pushing this? Because you called me a liar. I didn't lie. Brown didn't know why he was being detained.
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What I said wasn't a lie.
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He is complying. Plain as day. That's the goal, is it not? He's doing exactly what you suggest he should do, he realized that maybe he was too aggressive at the start of the encounter and Brown makes the decision to de-escalate. The incident started as a pissing contest. And Brown makes the decision to calm it down. And what does the officer do? The officer ***** it up. And it only gets worse from there. |
25th May 2018, 05:19 AM | #189 |
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I don't understand your point. Yes, it is wrong for a cop to engage in a pissing match. Likely illegal, although I think that the police could at least put up an argument for Brown resisting and whatnot.
Brown was dead in the wrong right out of the gate, starting with his privileged princess parking, then copping an attitude when called on it. No, Brown doesn't own the streets at 2AM either, despite his obvious belief. You may think 'non-submissive' describes his behavior. No, he was defiant and absolutely picking a fight when he was 100% in the wrong. But none of this is really in dispute. Brown was a stupid and wrong. The cops were stupid and wrong. Brown was not justified in his stupidity, especially in refusing to take his hands out of his pockets, coupled with the ominous 'I have something in my hands'. The cops may have been justified, but IMO for PR reasons are eating humble pie. The problem I see is that this is yet another 'while black' thread that appears to have nothing whatsoever to do with race. This has to do with cop powers and their abuse. Not the same thing, even though it is politically correct to interpret these stories that way. |
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25th May 2018, 05:43 AM | #190 |
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Seems much more like people desperately scrounging for something, anything, to say "this isn't at all about race", when yet again
1) it's the most obvious explanation for the assumption that abuse will go unnoticed, 2) the racism is being treated as worse than the outright abuse, 3) many are also excusing the outright abuse and violence or threats of violence. I'm always amused by the idea that police should be held to a lower standard of conduct than the average cashier or waitress, despite being part of a heavily armed group empowered by the state to use all necessary force should they be under actual threat or attack. |
25th May 2018, 05:47 AM | #191 |
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No kidding. It's a total reversal of roles. Police are given a very, very generous leeway when it comes to improperly using force, which is a core job competency of being a police officer. No such luck for Joe Citizen.
I don't think the legal defense of "I thought he was reaching for his waistband" or "furtive movements" would keep a citizen out of jail for shooting an unarmed man. Seems to work fine for cops though. |
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25th May 2018, 06:13 AM | #192 |
Penultimate Amazing
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The most obvious explanation for the OP is that cops don't like belligerence. Brown was as wrong as he could be, and still copped an attitude. That was the most obvious problem, not that he was black.
My white self has been at the receiving end of similar (not to the point of tazing) treatment from both white and black cops more times than I care to recall. It was because cops like to get bad guys and I was pegged as their bad guy (usually mistakenly), and having nothing to do with our respective races. That's why these 'while black' stories ring hollow when being attributed to race. They don't seem to be. They seem to be tales of cops being cops. You are right that we are becoming desensitized to police abuses. I take it as a given now and avoid police at all costs. That shouldn't be, but at the engine room level, that's how it is. It is still a distinct problem, separate from racism. |
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25th May 2018, 06:17 AM | #193 |
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Yeah, it's weird. We give them training, we give give them uniforms, we give them a salary, we give them guns, we give them vehicles, we give them a wide variety of legal powers to arrest and detain, but when incidents like this happen, we are inevitably told that it is our job to make them feel safe... |
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25th May 2018, 06:31 AM | #194 |
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Yeah, I tend to agree with this. I don't think, on an individual level, most cops are particularly racially biased in the way they abuse their authority. I think cops generally treat people they are interacting with poorly. However, due to the link of historical racism and modern poverty, many minorities find themselves in neighborhoods where they interact with police more often. They may be more attuned to the injustice of police overreach because they are in the neighborhoods where police are most active. Poor neighborhoods often have less political power too, so their ability to address these abuses may be diminished compared to wealthier, whiter communities. It's no mystery that "stop and frisk" was only being done in the poor parts of NYC, disproportionally impacting minorities that make up the urban poor.
The sad thing is that most of these communities desperately need effective law enforcement to alleviate some of the symptoms of poverty, but lack of police accountability just makes them another hassle for poor people. |
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25th May 2018, 12:21 PM | #195 |
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you realize this is the same logic that would make a black person surrounded by cops afraid to take his hands out of his pockets, right? The difference is, excessive paranoia in civilians is one thing. Excessively paranoid cops, is quite another.
And with the attitude of the cop, and his comments ("I own this") and disbelief when Sterling gives his his name, the disproportianate police response to a parking violation, the take-down and tasing, the disciplining of the cops... it's like you're trying your best not to see an obvious racial context here. |
25th May 2018, 12:32 PM | #196 |
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Again, we have posters here who continue to defend the police officers who did the act despite the fact that their chief admits it was unacceptable.
That's the extent to which people will go to defend bad behavior by police. Police can do no wrong, even when the police chief says that they were wrong. |
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25th May 2018, 12:34 PM | #197 |
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Yes. The average person is probably only going to interact with police very rarely, and those rare cases will most likely be traffic stops where they'll present their driver's license, registration, and insurance, perhaps be issued a ticket, and that's it.
And in the case of a *********** parking violation, which some here seem to forget was the start of this stupidity, most people will never even see the person who issued the ticket, and it would be straight-up insane to expect a police officer to call for backup to deal with this kind of sub-misdemeanor infraction. Having been in a situation where I've had multiple police officers point guns at me over absolutely nothing (they went tactical on the basis of a 911 call that a shotgun was in my car - in a nation where such guns are entirely legal even if it was true, which it wasn't), I can empathize with someone who might be too scared to make any move at all for fear of being shot. |
25th May 2018, 12:46 PM | #198 |
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25th May 2018, 12:56 PM | #199 |
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25th May 2018, 01:36 PM | #200 |
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Fortunately, they didn't put me on the ground. Didn't handcuff me. I'm a big teddy bear, I think they sensed that
Back to topic. I noticed that Sterling Brown had his hands out of his pockets earlier, and it was like 30 seconds to a minute after he put his hands in his pockets that the question and takedown occurred. Before that, no one was paying much attention. |
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