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Old 12th January 2018, 12:13 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The nice thing about democracy is that you donít need a definitive answer.
I'm not sure I agree. People tend to choose more freedom even if it's at their detriment, and we so often don't know what we actually want.

Anyway, it's a discussion for another time. I should make another thread for it.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:33 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm not sure I agree. People tend to choose more freedom even if it's at their detriment, and we so often don't know what we actually want.

Anyway, it's a discussion for another time. I should make another thread for it.
Iíd suggest itís just the opposite. Most of the freedom issues that arise tend to be esoteric or hypothetical so if give people something has a small tangible impact on their life they side with that instead. Look how readily people submit to having their activity on the internet or physical location comprehensively tracked in order to get some trivial ďfreeĒ benefit or application.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:48 PM   #123
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I agree with lomiller on this, people seem more likely to choose security or even just convenience over notions like freedom, liberty, or privacy.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:51 PM   #124
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So happiness trumps freedom then?
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:55 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So happiness trumps freedom then?
I think there's a false dichotomy there. Both properties have continuua and individuals find their own tradeoff point.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:57 PM   #126
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I can still ask whether it's true in general.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:57 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So happiness trumps freedom then?
Errrrr... sorta.

In general people will pick short term happiness over long term happiness* and in general "freedom" as a concept leans more toward the long term happiness side while security leans more toward the short.

So long story short, instant gratification.

*Without going down a whole deep rabbit hole of nuance it's not literal dictionary definition "happiness" in all of these cases but a broad range of positive emotions.
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Old 12th January 2018, 05:01 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm not sure I agree. People tend to choose more freedom even if it's at their detriment, and we so often don't know what we actually want.

Anyway, it's a discussion for another time. I should make another thread for it.
Further discussion should refer to the issues posed in Ch.13-17 of Watership Down
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Old 12th January 2018, 06:43 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The way I usually understand the term is rather to mean "taking complex social or political issues and reducing them to one's identity without justification." i.e. being black means you're oppressed, regardless of any other piece of data or context.
That may be what people say it means. In practice, it comes off as, say, Dave Rubin whining about "identity politics" after giving softball interviews to the likes of Milo or Stephan Molyneux - people who promote white nationalists, and who claim that movies like "Frozen" and "The Force Awakens" are attempts to destroy or subjugate men.
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Old 13th January 2018, 06:58 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I agree with lomiller on this, people seem more likely to choose security or even just convenience over notions like freedom, liberty, or privacy.
The latter three require the former.
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Old 13th January 2018, 09:38 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Jerrymander View Post
The latter three require the former.
True but that connection is not always obvious.

I think the Security/Freedom argument is... incomplete. I think long term we actually as a society do a pretty good job of balancing it, as they are concept that tend to self-correct to a large degree and their extremes are not substantial. Total anarchy or total police states just aren't generally stable.

It's trading one for another in the short term, especially when it's being played deliberately by someone with an agenda, that causes problems.
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