|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
14th March 2018, 11:41 AM | #161 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
|
"You're wrong."
"But what if it's magic? The kind of magic that means I'm right?" |
14th March 2018, 11:48 AM | #162 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Quantum Phenomena Modeled by Interactions between Many Classical Worlds
"Could Cold Spot in the Sky Be a Bruise from a Collision with a Parallel Universe?"
Quote:
Quote:
|
14th March 2018, 11:52 AM | #163 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
14th March 2018, 11:55 AM | #164 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
14th March 2018, 11:57 AM | #165 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,903
|
Online comments are going to be hopelessly biased however. People are of course much more likely to comment online about the topic if their memory is faulty and they think the movie was called "They Live!" (or were prompted into thinking so by seeing an online discussion and other comments about it).
Most people who have never heard of the movie or who correctly remember the movie's name are unaware of these discussions, or don't bother getting involved in such inanity, so trying to conclude how many people really have false memories of movie names based upon a Reddit discussion is an exercise in futility at best, and at worst is going to give you a ridiculously skewed number. |
14th March 2018, 12:02 PM | #166 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Yes. A model, but no test can show that that particular way of modeling represents reality. Map is not territory.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And you're right; I'm no expert. But I do know enough about it to recognize nonsense claims. Just because I can see New York on a map doesn't mean it's made of paper and ink. |
14th March 2018, 12:03 PM | #167 |
Watching . . . always watching.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 2,378
|
Me, I remember the Stormtroopers chasing Han and Chewbacca through the Death Star in Episode 4. The head Stormtrooper (Phil) at one point yelled "Close the blast doors!" and they closed, but Han and Chewbacca made it through. Then Phil franically yelled, "Open the blast doors! Open the blast doors!" but too late, and all the Stormtroopers piled into the barrier. Then the lowest-ranking Stormtrooper, Medford, then asked, "Didn't this happen in a Bugs Bunny cartoon?"
Oh, and I remember Han shot Greedo before Greedo drew his weapon, but I saw the movie again recently, and I was wrong both times. I tell you, those Star Trek movies mess with your mind, man. |
14th March 2018, 12:06 PM | #168 |
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 159
|
I don't really have an explanation. I'm skeptic and I do not believe in anything paranormal. I'm not an expert in physics and I do not know anything about the theory of parallel universes, but I was told that it is impossible just to jump from one universe to another. It does not make any sense that the result is a change in the name of some of the products, movies and other pop cultural stuff.
I would like to believe that this is just a false memory, but so many people remember the movie with an exclamation mark. I can not understand why we all make exactly the same mistake. Where did that exclamation come from? I've never seen Them! nor other old horror movies. |
14th March 2018, 12:09 PM | #169 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Kinda sounds like a paranormal explanation to me. I guess we'll just have to let this thread run its course, to find out.
|
14th March 2018, 12:20 PM | #170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
What about it is paranormal? We're not talking about ghosts. We're reasonably sure other universes exist and somewhat sure they're causally disconnected from us, but stuff like quantum immortality isn't paranormal, it's just weird. The Many Worlds Interpretation of QM is very weird, but not paranormal in the least. If all these branching universes exist, who's to say we don't occasionally slip in and out of them?
|
14th March 2018, 12:28 PM | #171 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
14th March 2018, 12:30 PM | #172 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,903
|
How many of the people on Reddit or elsewhere who 'remember' an exclamation in the movie 'They Live' actually misremember it that way, and how many only 'remembered' an exclamation point in the movie name after reading about how others misremembered the same exclamation mark?
I think a large part of the supposed phenomena can be explained by it being simply a self-perpetuating online echo chamber filled with credulous woo slingers. People with no memories, or vague memories, of whether or not Nelson Mandela was alive, or whether or not there's an exclamation mark in a movie name, etc. are simply being prompted into thinking they remember something they don't really remember at all via these online discussions and those of a credulous bent are coming to all sorts of daft conclusions about it and piling on to the discussion, making it seem like there's something to it to more and more people who read about it.
Quote:
|
14th March 2018, 12:32 PM | #173 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
14th March 2018, 12:52 PM | #174 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Seriously, but I hit Submit without bothering to complete the thought. I meant that I would accept it as a non-paranormal hypothesis for why people misremember events.
And I love that your "seriously" link is to an interpretation of quantum mechanics. Not an observation, merely a Just So Story to explain why quantum mechanics are so counter-intuitive in macro-scale terms. There's no evidence that many worlds exist. Let alone that people "slip into them" long enough to remember the death of Nelson Mandela, or the `!` at the end of `They Live`. You're taking a narrative intended to help scientists make sense of a somewhat nonsensical physics regime, and trying to turn it into a valid explanation for a macro-level effect with absolutely zero evidence. |
14th March 2018, 12:57 PM | #175 |
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 159
|
To be honest, I've seen it in a video from some guy called MoneyBags73 who makes ME videos. When I saw it with an exclamation point, I thought that must be it. Then I checked reddit and some other videos and I learned that many others have a similar problem. I consider other ME examples ridiculous, like dilemna because it is dilemma or dilema in every indoeuropean language. But this one is strange.
|
14th March 2018, 01:12 PM | #176 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
These interpretations exist because QM is so mind-bendingly weird. I'm taking an interpretation of the collapsing wave-function that many physicists agree with, and suggesting these branching universes might occasionally interact.
There is nothing paranormal about any of that. If there is, then the word doesn't have any meaning. |
14th March 2018, 01:17 PM | #177 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
|
This is driving me crazy
https://i.imgur.com/drLKyY2.png |
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
|
14th March 2018, 01:22 PM | #178 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
|
14th March 2018, 01:27 PM | #179 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
theprestige is actually explaining it better than I was, mainly because I get so tired of hearing the same crap from people who don't understand what they're parroting and lose patience.
This use of the MWI is analogous to someone hearing about Einstein's thought experiment involving the train, then trying to use that as a foundation for an argument that we can look out the train windows. |
14th March 2018, 01:30 PM | #180 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
What is being called the Mandela Effect is what is already known as Confabulation and Collective False Memories. For some reason it was recently renamed on the web as the ME, probably just to be catchy. It's also now been given a supernatural or paranormal spin which just isn't there in any academic study of memory. Check out these links...
Collective False Memories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_...false_memories Confabulation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation?wprov=sfla1 |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
14th March 2018, 02:03 PM | #181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,539
|
In the case of the actual Mandela effect, I think it's very easily explained:
Wasn't there this black dude, pretty famous for fighting against apartheid, and then he died in jail? Yes, indeed! (Only, it wasn't Mandela.) |
__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
|
14th March 2018, 02:04 PM | #182 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
Might as well talk about ghosts because the Mandella Effect works on the same mental mechanism.
People see ghosts due to a misprocessing of visual information in the brain combined with external sensory input. In short - people mis-see see things. It's fairly rare, but it does happen. The Jaws-Holly thing is a great example where rational people swear she had braces, but the evidence is clear that she did not. The people who thought she had braces didn't see the movie in a parallel universe, their brains made a judgement call based on the visual information in the scene where Holly is in pigtails, which in 1979 was nerdy, and for a Bond movie- definitely nerdy. Pigtails+Glasses+Jaws=Braces...right? The assumption was Jaws fell in love with her because she had braces, and not desirable cleavage, and great legs. The viewers who "saw" braces made a visual interpretation. Later on the two are on the space station and she clearly does not have braces. Yes, it's kind of creepy to have an image in your mind that you are sure you saw, and then find out you didn't see it. Welcome to my world. The idea that this is all caused by parallel universes, worm holes, and whatnot is layman's Quantum Physics applied to justify woo. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
14th March 2018, 02:07 PM | #183 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
|
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
14th March 2018, 03:28 PM | #184 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
By that logic, you would have to claim the MWI of QM is paranormal, which would probably surprise the scientists who believe it's the correct interpretation. Like I said, the term loses all meaning if you're going to apply it to things that could be possible, but aren't yet known. You might as well call warp speed paranormal too.
Quote:
|
14th March 2018, 03:35 PM | #185 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 29,368
|
I'm halfway convinced that we're in some alternate universe right now. One of the cliches of old sci-fi stories is the premise "What if... Hitler won World War II?" (I don't think that counts as a Godwin...)
Except that in our universe, somebody put this random guy into "What if x became President of the United States?" I hate being part of some Writing 101 exercise. |
__________________
Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting. |
|
14th March 2018, 03:41 PM | #186 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
14th March 2018, 04:29 PM | #187 |
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 53,086
|
|
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes." |
|
14th March 2018, 05:03 PM | #188 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
"Warp speed" isn't paranormal, it's science fiction. Warp speed as an explanation for why lights in the sky appear to violate known laws of physics would be paranormal.
Same basic principle here. MWI is a useful construct for thinking about counter-intuitive observations in quantum mechanics. You would need to show that it's a reality at macro scale, before I'm willing to accept it as anything other that woo, for explaining macro-scale phenomenon. Especially in this particular context, where we don't need to appeal to parallel universes to arrive at a parsimonious explanation for the phenomenon. |
14th March 2018, 06:00 PM | #189 |
black goo
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,130
|
It could yes.
But i can say for me this was not the cause as that card was never available in my country, so likely never advertised there, and also, i did not own a tv nor ever really watch one ( that is a different story) I think this may apply to many others as the card in question and the advertising campaign the ad is taken from seems to only have been for FINLAND. And the vast majority of the madelatards are from the USA not finland. |
14th March 2018, 06:09 PM | #190 |
black goo
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,130
|
|
14th March 2018, 06:16 PM | #191 |
Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 159
|
Sunny guy from the raisin bran cereals lost his sunglasses.
Still, there are Yahoo question threads from ten years ago about why the sun is wearing glasses. |
14th March 2018, 06:20 PM | #192 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
14th March 2018, 06:27 PM | #193 |
black goo
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,130
|
|
14th March 2018, 06:34 PM | #194 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
|
14th March 2018, 06:42 PM | #195 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
14th March 2018, 07:13 PM | #196 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
It either is or isn't paranormal. It doesn't matter what you're using it to explain.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
14th March 2018, 08:40 PM | #197 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Oh, you don't like the word paranormal? My bad. Let's call it woo, instead. You're foisting pseudoscientific woo as if it were a reasonable alternative explanation.
|
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division. |
|
14th March 2018, 08:49 PM | #198 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
I just ask the same question: what makes it "woo"? Other universes popping into existence? No. Other universes having effects on this one? No. A Shroedinger's Cat death propelling you to another universe? No, unless you think Max Tegmark traffics in "woo", which would be an odd claim to make.
What, exactly, has got you riled up, The? |
14th March 2018, 09:00 PM | #199 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
It is stupid.
I think I remember reading somewhere that the "parallel universe travel" explanation of the Mandela Effect was originally proposed as a joke. I could be wrong about that - but see that's the thing; in the "home universe" that I originally came from, sometimes a person would misremember things and someone else could come along and say "no that's wrong it was this way, see look at these old things" and the first person would say "oh I see, obviously I misremembered, thanks for clearing that up for me". But obviously I've now slipped into a parallel world where when people remember something one way and are then given evidence that their memory is wrong, they now just insist their memory is impeccable and it's reality that is obviously wrong. Unfortunately parallel-universe slippage isn't the only explanation that crackpots have envisioned for the Mandela Effect. There's also a significant number of others who seem to believe that some unknown force is deliberately editing historical events, things like movie lines and children's author's names, and others' memories of same, for potentially diabolical reasons. |
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
14th March 2018, 09:54 PM | #200 |
Rough Around the Edges
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 7,686
|
It's been said before, but the Mandela Effect is pure ego. Rather than admit to conflating some memories about popular culture, people prefer to draw up scenarios wherein differing universes are colliding and only special people can see it.
But other people misremember it the exact same way?! Well, here's a thought. Human brains are all made out of the same stuff, and function in basically the same way (the healthy ones, anyway). And people within a particular demographic are exposed to a lot of the same pop culture influences. Is it really so unbelievable, then, that said people might end up with a lot of the same memory mistakes? I know we're all special and unique and ****, but there are only so many things a brain can do. It just doesn't amaze me that much. What amazes me is the hoops people will jump through to invent mysticism where only boring brain farts exist. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|