IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Bob Heironimus , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

Closed Thread
Old 19th March 2010, 08:46 AM   #641
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
 
Nonpareil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nethescurial
Posts: 8,096
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
By the numbers....his elbow-reach is well short of Patty's.
By the image overlay, they're the same. Are you blind, or do you just have images disabled?
__________________
"The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort."
- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth
Nonpareil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 08:49 AM   #642
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,712
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
You didn't actually refute the elbow-reach measurement, Drew...because you didn't show what the extent of the alleged error with it, is.

I agree that there may be some error in the measurement, due to Patty's arm being swung forward, in addition to it being swung out to the side....but the Ballet teacher measurement shows that any potential error would be minor....since her elbow-reach measures close to the typical reach, for an average-proportioned human.
Sweaty, in order to measure the true length of any line, you must project through a parallel plane. It is a fact. I will show examples here:


You don't know where the Ballet, or Patty's elbow is. Your measurements are refuted.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

Last edited by Drewbot; 19th March 2010 at 08:52 AM.
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 09:05 AM   #643
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Questions about Roger Patterson for PGF supporters that do not fear to answer them...

1) Would you consider Roger Patterson to have been an honest man? Yes or no.

2) Did Roger Patterson ever swindle people for money, goods and services? Yes or no.

3) Was Roger Patterson an extremely intelligent person, an amateur inventor who claimed the invention of such items as the plastic bread bag clip, a gifted artist with keen attention to anatomical detail, a sculptor, a carver and extremely technically savvy? Yes or no.

4) Did Roger Patterson abhor regular employment and constantly scheme ways in which to become rich with relatively little effort? Yes or no.

5) Was Roger Patterson obsessed with Bigfoot and proving its existence to people to the complete abandonment of all else? Yes or no.

6) Did Roger Patterson claim encounters with Bigfoot in his home area where people had previously made no such claims? Yes or no.

7) Did Roger Patterson claim that he was going to Bluff Creek to film a real Bigfoot and get rich? Yes or no.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 09:12 AM   #644
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
The reason why I mentioned her husband, was that, when I talked to him on the phone...he supported her story.

Since her story includes her daughter....there's a very high probability that her daughter would also say she saw the Bigfoot, too.

Of course, it's within the 'realm of possibility' that Joyce and her husband are both fruitcakes, and are making this all up, and the daughter walks around the house with a bag over her head, afraid that the neighbors might recognize her......but I really don't think that that is the case.
That is not the only alternative and you know that.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 09:40 AM   #645
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
By the numbers....his elbow-reach is well short of Patty's.
What numbers? Sweaty's hackneyed numbers with 2D scribbles on images of 3D objects? LOL

A picture is worth a thousand scribbles...



And that's without Bob wearing shoulder pads, a head piece, and slouching over.

Game over. Bye bye, elbow reach poo poo.

Quote:
Still can't SHOW specifically where, and to what extent, there are any significant errors in the elbow-reach measurements....can you, kitakaze?
That thing that's all blowed up? BTW, simple question for you, Sweaty. Hypothetically speaking, if your methodology for establishing measurements is flawed to begin with, and you don't actually know the size, proportions, and spatial distances of the subjects you are attempting to measure, how can one use that flawed method of measurement to give you the correct readjustments?

How much simpler can it be than for say, Drew, to show you how the method is flawed, or for me to show you unequivocably that Patty possesses human proportions and could be Bob in a suit?

You don't need to answer. That's the one, two knockout on refuting you and your worthless scribbles

Dude, you've been skeptically powned. And by coloured lines and an overlay, no less!
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 09:45 AM   #646
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
The reason why I mentioned her husband, was that, when I talked to him on the phone...he supported her story.

Since her story includes her daughter....there's a very high probability that her daughter would also say she saw the Bigfoot, too.


Of course, it's within the 'realm of possibility' that Joyce and her husband are both fruitcakes, and are making this all up, and the daughter walks around the house with a bag over her head, afraid that the neighbors might recognize her......but I really don't think that that is the case.

Don't forget that Longtabber PE had a Bigfoot sighting on a military base along with other soldiers. There is no need to interview them because they are basically going to say the same thing he did. Right?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 10:45 AM   #647
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Don't forget that Longtabber PE had a Bigfoot sighting on a military base along with other soldiers. There is no need to interview them because they are basically going to say the same thing he did. Right?

I agree with you, William, that people can be dishonest.

But, based on Joyce's phone call to me...I put a lot of weight in her report.


You don't have to put any weight in it...(it doesn't matter to me)...but I'd bet you money that if you talked to her in person, you'd have a lot more trouble calling her, her daughter and her husband all liars...right to their faces......or, even thinking, with 100% certainty, that they're lying.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 10:48 AM   #648
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
What numbers? Sweaty's hackneyed numbers with 2D scribbles on images of 3D objects? LOL

A picture is worth a thousand scribbles...

Still can't do anything about the elbow-reach measurements, can you, kitakaze?
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 10:52 AM   #649
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Sweaty, in order to measure the true length of any line, you must project through a parallel plane. It is a fact. I will show examples here:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6931/sweat.jpg

You don't know where the Ballet, or Patty's elbow is. Your measurements are refuted.

Thanks for the diagrams, Drew......I'll look them over, and respond to them over the weekend.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 10:59 AM   #650
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Pure_Argent View Post
By the image overlay, they're the same. Are you blind, or do you just have images disabled?

kitakaze's image overlays aren't as precise and accurate as the other images I'ved used, to make measurements with.

kitakaze relies on the fuzziest images available, to make his judgements....because that's how he can present a slightly, subtley distorted version of 'reality'.


I'll show why those overlays aren't as meaningful as he's proposing they are, when I have the time to get to it.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 11:09 AM   #651
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
kitakaze wrote:



Still can't do anything about the elbow-reach measurements, can you, kitakaze?
Just did. Game over. You lose. Bye bye.

ETA: What am I thinking? This is going to be delicious...

The overlay TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.


BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty, or in the Chabal overlay showing Patty does not have inhuman proportions.

Keep up the good work, Sweaty!

Ooo.. That felt good.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 19th March 2010 at 11:41 AM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 11:17 AM   #652
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
kitakaze's image overlays aren't as precise and accurate as the other images I'ved used, to make measurements with.


Lies. I used the exact same image Sweaty used to make measurements with. See, here it is...

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
It's that left one Sweaty is making precise measurements on. LOL

Thanks for that, Sweaty!

Look at him go. He's in a panic now. Gobbledy-gook elbow reach all blowed up. Enjoy your day freaking out over your sunken battleship.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 11:22 AM   #653
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
I agree with you, William, that people can be dishonest.

But, based on Joyce's phone call to me...I put a lot of weight in her report.


You don't have to put any weight in it...(it doesn't matter to me)...but I'd bet you money that if you talked to her in person, you'd have a lot more trouble calling her, her daughter and her husband all liars...right to their faces......or, even thinking, with 100% certainty, that they're lying.

The thing about calling someone a liar or challenging someone to do that is that it pushes the issue into another social realm and can be used to manipulate someone into saying "no" when they normally would not. The "accusation of lying" card can be dealt and might be used to intimidate the person into thinking the next thing that happens is a broken nose. And many people might say that a broken nose is certainly a logical possible outcome after calling somebody a liar. I think some Bigfooters do use the "accused liar card" in this way. It almost invariably causes the other person to say "no" which can then easily be worked to the advantage of the claimant (even if they actually are lying).

My preference in response to the liar card would go like this...

Bigfooter claiming undeniable visual encounter: Are you calling me a liar?

Parcher: There is simply no way of knowing that you are telling the truth and that your testimony is factual.


No, I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying you can't prove your honesty even if you are telling the truth and it is a fact that you saw a Bigfoot.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 11:26 AM   #654
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
You don't have to put any weight in it...(it doesn't matter to me)...but I'd bet you money that if you talked to her in person, you'd have a lot more trouble calling her, her daughter and her husband all liars...right to their faces......or, even thinking, with 100% certainty, that they're lying.
I'll call Joyce and her husband James. I like investigative stuff like this. They have a place in East Greenbush and another in West Sand Lake. I bet they're really nice. I'll see if I can talk to their daughter, as well. She's about 43 now.

I certainly won't be calling anyone a liar, but I will be mindful of other scenarios.

How's that sound, Sweaty? Someone who isn't a creduloid checking out the story.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 11:27 AM   #655
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 26,646
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
I'd bet you money that if you talked to her in person, you'd have a lot more trouble calling her, her daughter and her husband all liars...right to their faces......or, even thinking, with 100% certainty, that they're lying.

You underestimate the solidity of my skeptical position on Bigfoot. I would gladly look that whole family in the eyes and tell them that Bigfoot does not exist.

Nobody, no matter how convincing they may be, is going to talk me into thinking that Bigfoot exists. If Bigfoot existed we would have had a piece of its flesh a LONG TIME AGO!
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 12:06 PM   #656
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
 
Nonpareil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nethescurial
Posts: 8,096
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
kitakaze's image overlays aren't as precise and accurate as the other images I'ved used, to make measurements with.

kitakaze relies on the fuzziest images available, to make his judgements....because that's how he can present a slightly, subtley distorted version of 'reality'.
As long as we're posting pictures...

__________________
"The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort."
- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth
Nonpareil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2010, 12:38 PM   #657
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,661
Are they trying to put that guy out with a flamethrower?

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 12:49 AM   #658
learner
Graduate Poster
 
learner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Are they trying to put that guy out with a flamethrower?

RayG
Its Homeopatic fire fighting. Like cures like. Just because they got the dose wrong doesnt mean it doesnt work.
__________________
"I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous" - My Mate Dave
" How do you expect me to use my initiative if you wont tell me what to do?" - Dave again
learner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 07:18 AM   #659
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post

My preference in response to the liar card would go like this...

Bigfooter claiming undeniable visual encounter: Are you calling me a liar?

Parcher: There is simply no way of knowing that you are telling the truth and that your testimony is factual.

No, I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying you can't prove your honesty even if you are telling the truth and it is a fact that you saw a Bigfoot.

What you just said, William, is what skeptics typically...and almost ALWAYS say, regarding the evidence for Bigfoot...(in this case, 'eyewitness testimony'.) They discuss it in terms of "Proof"....rather than in terms of 'Probabilities".

I agree with you that someone simply saying they saw a Bigfoot doesn't rise to the level of HARD, undeniable Proof of it's existence.

But despite that fact, an eyewitness testimony can still carry weight....in that it creates a 'degree-of-probability'....a 'chance'....that that person may have seen one.
The actual truth, in cases where 'probabilities' are concerned....is an un-known. (Hence, the use of the words 'may have'.)

If someone actually does see a Bigfoot, it can only be 'Proof' for that particular individual......it's 'non-transferable' proof.



Quote:
You underestimate the solidity of my skeptical position on Bigfoot. I would gladly look that whole family in the eyes and tell them that Bigfoot does not exist.

I don't think I underestimate it....I know that you give Bigfoot's existence a 0% probability.....or, perhaps, a 'one-in-a-gazillion' chance/probability.

But it's a 2-sided (Bigfoot) coin.......it's possible that Joyce may be just as solid in her position, as you are, in yours.



Quote:
Nobody, no matter how convincing they may be, is going to talk me into thinking that Bigfoot exists. If Bigfoot existed we would have had a piece of its flesh a LONG TIME AGO!

That's fine by me....there is no 'Belief War' to be won, regarding Bigfoot's existence. There's ONLY a mystery which needs to be solved.
And that's THE reason why I continue analysing the PG Film....to try to solve this one Bigfoot-related mystery.

Fortunately.......kitakaze is helping to solve it...with his use of the FUZZIEST images available!

I'll deal with his garbage, tomorrow.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 20th March 2010 at 07:21 AM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 08:22 AM   #660
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
That's fine by me....there is no 'Belief War' to be won, regarding Bigfoot's existence. There's ONLY a mystery which needs to be solved.
And that's THE reason why I continue analysing the PG Film....to try to solve this one Bigfoot-related mystery.
Hey, that's great, Sweaty. How about we make a thread where I phone Joyce, James and their daughter myself and interview them as someone who is not a Bigfoot creduloid?

Quote:
Fortunately.......kitakaze is helping to solve it...with his use of the FUZZIEST images available!
My fuzziest images!? What deliciousness! Quoting you from the clearest image you have on which you placed precise measurements from edge to edge...

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Yup...looking at Patty from directly behind....
LOL. I use your clearest image and you call it my fuzziest!

Too much fun! I have annihilated the flail of Sweaty. Once again for joy...

The overlay TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.


BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty, or in the Chabal overlay showing Patty does not have inhuman proportions.

Keep up the good work, Sweaty!

I love it.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 09:12 AM   #661
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
My fuzziest images!?

Yup. That's what you use, kitakaze....the fuzziest images of Patty....in your relentless pursuit of the Truth!

I'll deal with the rest of your garbage tomorrow.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 05:08 PM   #662
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Yup. That's what you use, kitakaze....the fuzziest images of Patty....in your relentless pursuit of the Truth!

I'll deal with the rest of your garbage tomorrow.
And yet you had no problem using it and making precise measurements on it before I used it. LOL

I am enjoying you falling apart with this.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 07:17 PM   #663
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post

I have annihilated the flail of Sweaty. Once again for joy...

The overlay TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.


BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty,
or in the Chabal overlay showing Patty does not have inhuman proportions.

Keep up the good work, Sweaty!

I love it.

MORE KITAKAZE KRAP.......


kitakaze's overlay DOES NOT SHOW how Bob's elbow-reach compares to Patty's elbow-reach.


This comparison DOES SHOW how they compare...




When the elbow positions are measured, in both the horizontal direction...and in the vertical direction...(the vertical length from the 'subject's eyes to the elbow-joint', determined, in large part, by the length of the subject's upper-arm bone)....the numbers show that Bob's elbows do not....and can not...reach as far away from the backbone, and, as far down from the level of the eyes...at the same time...as Patty's can.

The numbers in the white boxes are the 'total pixels', from adding the vertical and the horizontal measurements.

Bob....as always....comes up "a day late, and an 'elbow-reach' short".


I have already made graphics which show these measurements, a little more clearly....using sharper images.......the sharper, more accurate images that kitakaze can't deal with.... ......or use.



kitakaze has learned a new game to play here....the "Parrot Game"...


Quote:
I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty,

The funny thing about it is, though, is that while kitakaze can parrot my statements to him...in this particular case, his comparison doesn't even show what he's claiming it shows, in the first place.

It doesn't SHOW anything about Patty's elbow position/reach.....so how could it possibly show that Bob's elbows "FIT PATTY"?????????


__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 07:20 PM   #664
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
I am enjoying you falling apart with this.

I enjoyed showing your overlay to be a complete piece of krap.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 09:12 PM   #665
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Bobby next to Patty...with Patty's width increased, to correct for the approx. 40-deg. angle-of-view...





Now....here is what you should do, kitakaze.....go see Bob, and take as many pictures of him that you like....dress him up....PAD him up...any way that you like....and, in a MILLION blessed years, you will NEVER

produce a picture of him, that can replicate the elbow-reach that we see in this picture of Patty.

The great thing about this challenge, kitakaze...is that you can't BULL-KRAP your way through it!


GOOD LUCK, Champ!!!
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2010, 11:20 PM   #666
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
MORE KITAKAZE KRAP.......


kitakaze's overlay DOES NOT SHOW how Bob's elbow-reach compares to Patty's elbow-reach.
Oops for you, Sweaty. Nice arbitrary scribbles, but uh-oh, you forgot to account for a head piece, great big shoulder pads and Bob slouching over in the suit. Awww... better luck next time. Aaand...

The overlay TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.


BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty, or in the Chabal overlay showing Patty does not have inhuman proportions.

Keep up the good work, Sweaty!

Woooo! This is fun!

ETA:

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
kitakaze has learned a new game to play here....the "Parrot Game"...
New game? LOL What are you talking about? Using Sweaty against Sweaty is nothing new. And as long as you're around, I never get tired of it.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 20th March 2010 at 11:23 PM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 06:06 AM   #667
GT/CS
Illuminator
 
GT/CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Oops for you, Sweaty. Nice arbitrary scribbles, but uh-oh, you forgot to account for a head piece, great big shoulder pads and Bob slouching over in the suit. Awww... better luck next time. Aaand...

The overlay TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.


BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty, or in the Chabal overlay showing Patty does not have inhuman proportions.

Keep up the good work, Sweaty!

Woooo! This is fun!

ETA:



New game? LOL What are you talking about? Using Sweaty against Sweaty is nothing new. And as long as you're around, I never get tired of it.
Kaze, I never thought I'd do this but since you continue to engage Sweaty you're now on ignore, too.

This juvenile playing with colors and crayons hurts my brain.
__________________
Normal in a weird way.
GT/CS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 06:37 AM   #668
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in the Heironimus overlay showing he could fit Patty
I just did.


BY DA WAY......


Here is what you should do, kitakaze.....go see Bob, and take as many pictures of him that you like....dress him up....PAD him up...any way that you like....and, in a MILLION blessed years, you will NEVER

produce a picture of him, that can replicate the elbow-reach that we see in this picture of Patty.

The great thing about this challenge, kitakaze...is that you can't BULL-KRAP your way through it!


GOOD LUCK, Champ!!!
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 21st March 2010 at 06:48 AM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 06:47 AM   #669
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
The significant difference between my claim/challenge that kitakaze "cannot show specifically where, and to what extent, there are any significant errors in the measurements, in my graphics"....and his Parroting of my claim, back to me.....is simply a matter of SHOWING vs. SAYING.

That is where the significant difference is.


kitakaze SAYS "Bob fits Patty"...which includes his elbows, and elbow-reach....but his graphic doesn't even SHOW where Patty's elbows are located...and, therefore, doesn't SHOW anything about whether the elbow-reaches match, or fit.

kitakaze then SAYS the measurements in my latest graphic are...

Quote:
arbitrary scribbles,

...but does not, and can not, SHOW specifically where, and to what extent, there are any significant errors in them.


It's a matter of SHOW....and SAYS.

kitakaze can SHOW nothing.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 06:53 AM   #670
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
You forgot to account for a head piece, great big shoulder pads and Bob slouching over in the suit. Thus, everything you posted is meaningless. Try factoring that in and you'll see what I mean.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 06:57 AM   #671
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Kaze, I never thought I'd do this but since you continue to engage Sweaty you're now on ignore, too.

This juvenile playing with colors and crayons hurts my brain.
It was too much fun to resist. At least a couple of times, anyway. I'll leave the crazy text back to Sweaty. You know, I am impressed, though. It takes a lot of work to put all that mess together.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 07:45 AM   #672
SweatyYeti
Master Poster
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
You forgot to account for a head piece, great big shoulder pads

Those are irrelevant to the reach of the elbows.



Quote:
and Bob slouching over in the suit.

I did...in the graphic with Patty's width stretched, next to Bob....I scaled Bob larger than Patty, to account for Patty's leaning forward.

Her elbow reach is still clearly beyond Bob's.
(I didn't show it, with numbers...in this case...only because it is SO obvious....but I can, and will, later.)


Try to pay closer attention, there, Chief!



Quote:
Thus, everything you posted is meaningless. Try factoring that in and you'll see what I mean.

Everything you SAY is meaningless.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 07:47 AM   #673
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,661
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Kaze, I never thought I'd do this but since you continue to engage Sweaty you're now on ignore, too.
I'm getting close to that point too. It kinda defeats the purpose of having one person on ignore if another person keeps quoting their incoherent ramblings.

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 08:13 AM   #674
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Kaze, I never thought I'd do this but since you continue to engage Sweaty you're now on ignore, too.

This juvenile playing with colors and crayons hurts my brain.
Actually, you know what, GT? I have to thank you for that nudge, man. I think you've pointed out what has to be one of my biggest flaws on this forum. It's not just the making copypasta of Sweaty's rainbow rambles. I really need to admit it. I provoke Sweaty way, way too much. Everybody else either has him on ignore or just doesn't bother wasting time addressing him. I should be listening to what people like you, Ray, River, Wolftrax, learner, Vort, The Shrike, Óðinn, Correa, LTC, tsig and many, many other people have made clear - SweatyYeti's posts are little more than unwanted eyesores. I think it was Óðinn or Wolf that made the point that if it wasn't for all the banter with Sweaty, the thread would be a goldmine of education.

Looking back over the pages, how many technicolour rants have I incited because I enjoyed playing with the woo far too much? How much better would this thread be if I didn't encourage Sweaty? I know I say the reason I do that is simply to counter all the misinformation and gobbledy-gook Sweaty throws up, but really, seriously, other than me, who even cares? All Sweaty's scribbles and comparisons have no impact on anything at all, other than making this thread a chore for regular, rational people who communicate in an adult manner. Seriously, what was I thinking? Sweaty can scribble till he's blue in the face and it never has and never will make a single iota of difference conerning the validity of the PGF or Bigfoot's existence in general. Also, my antagonism is keeping Sweaty away from the only people who care anything about what he posts. It's been like, two months since Sweaty's posted in his Patty/Bob thread at the SFB. He needs to be back in the wild with his own kind. This is an unnatural environment for him. Gets him all worked up.

OK, first, my apologies to my fellow forum members for the years of contributing to the noise ratio with my habit engaging Sweaty. Second, I, kitakaze, hereby surrender my troll poker, and resolve to no longer get into long, pointless, tiresome, endless bouts with SweatyYeti. I'm off the crack. I'll get on the patch, or something.

Sweaty, it's about that time. The game is yours. You can say I gave up or ran away or whatever. You can say JREF scoftics can't handle the truth via Sweaty all you like. As much fun as it's been kicking it around with you the last three and a half years, I got to love my home. I feel like I've been putting up "grafitti is for losers" signs in my neighbourhood only to make the taggers go nuts. I should have done this long ago, but you are now my second on my ignore list. Every minute I spend responding to your posts, is a minute lost dealing with the actually important things I have to do here. Good luck with the whole Bigfoot/UFO/Mars civilization thing, old boy.

Here's the most visually and sonically appropriate sayonara I can give you...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Trippy. Ciao, Sweaty!
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 21st March 2010 at 08:19 AM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 08:17 AM   #675
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,272
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
I'm getting close to that point too. It kinda defeats the purpose of having one person on ignore if another person keeps quoting their incoherent ramblings.

RayG
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 10:55 AM   #676
Nonpareil
The Terrible Trivium
 
Nonpareil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nethescurial
Posts: 8,096
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Actually, you know what, GT? I have to thank you for that nudge, man. I think you've pointed out what has to be one of my biggest flaws on this forum. It's not just the making copypasta of Sweaty's rainbow rambles. I really need to admit it. I provoke Sweaty way, way too much. Everybody else either has him on ignore or just doesn't bother wasting time addressing him. I should be listening to what people like you, Ray, River, Wolftrax, learner, Vort, The Shrike, Óðinn, Correa, LTC, tsig and many, many other people have made clear - SweatyYeti's posts are little more than unwanted eyesores. I think it was Óðinn or Wolf that made the point that if it wasn't for all the banter with Sweaty, the thread would be a goldmine of education.

Looking back over the pages, how many technicolour rants have I incited because I enjoyed playing with the woo far too much? How much better would this thread be if I didn't encourage Sweaty? I know I say the reason I do that is simply to counter all the misinformation and gobbledy-gook Sweaty throws up, but really, seriously, other than me, who even cares? All Sweaty's scribbles and comparisons have no impact on anything at all, other than making this thread a chore for regular, rational people who communicate in an adult manner. Seriously, what was I thinking? Sweaty can scribble till he's blue in the face and it never has and never will make a single iota of difference conerning the validity of the PGF or Bigfoot's existence in general. Also, my antagonism is keeping Sweaty away from the only people who care anything about what he posts. It's been like, two months since Sweaty's posted in his Patty/Bob thread at the SFB. He needs to be back in the wild with his own kind. This is an unnatural environment for him. Gets him all worked up.

OK, first, my apologies to my fellow forum members for the years of contributing to the noise ratio with my habit engaging Sweaty. Second, I, kitakaze, hereby surrender my troll poker, and resolve to no longer get into long, pointless, tiresome, endless bouts with SweatyYeti. I'm off the crack. I'll get on the patch, or something.

Sweaty, it's about that time. The game is yours. You can say I gave up or ran away or whatever. You can say JREF scoftics can't handle the truth via Sweaty all you like. As much fun as it's been kicking it around with you the last three and a half years, I got to love my home. I feel like I've been putting up "grafitti is for losers" signs in my neighbourhood only to make the taggers go nuts. I should have done this long ago, but you are now my second on my ignore list. Every minute I spend responding to your posts, is a minute lost dealing with the actually important things I have to do here. Good luck with the whole Bigfoot/UFO/Mars civilization thing, old boy.

Here's the most visually and sonically appropriate sayonara I can give you...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Trippy. Ciao, Sweaty!
Quoted so GT can know he had some effect. And, I gotta say, kitakaze, I'm very impressed that you were able to keep this up for so long without going insane.
My hat's off to you.
__________________
"The only thing you can do easily is be wrong, and that's hardly worth the effort."
- Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth
Nonpareil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 05:13 PM   #677
learner
Graduate Poster
 
learner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,697
Good for you Kit!
Now for my first ignore, Its all about Fonts and colours.

Sweaty on ignore..3 2 1.. gone.
__________________
"I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous" - My Mate Dave
" How do you expect me to use my initiative if you wont tell me what to do?" - Dave again
learner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 21st March 2010, 09:54 PM   #678
I Am He
Critical Thinker
 
I Am He's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by learner View Post
Good for you Kit!
Now for my first ignore, Its all about Fonts and colours.

Sweaty on ignore..3 2 1.. gone.
I've never put anyone on ignore but like you I am tempted to follow in your footsteps.



I Am He
__________________
I see you're playing stupid again, looks like you're winning
I Am He is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 09:28 AM   #679
Correa Neto
Philosopher
 
Correa Neto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,548
That's it, K!

Let da trollz starve!
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…
Correa Neto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 06:07 PM   #680
Óðinn
Muse
 
Óðinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 660
Since Sweaty is on everyone's ignore list, I guess I better step in and keep the graphics coming. Sure we can measure limbs proportions, etc. to see if Bob H fits in the suit, but let's switch gears a bit and look at Bob's walk. The "flip" in Bob's step comes no where near to matching the 90 degree leg lift that Patty exhibits in several frames. Bob H certainly has latched onto his "compliant" gait in the film tho.



If Bob (as Patty) made the trackway, then his steps were 41" long. At least 1 step was anyway.



JREF member Tube was able to match and exceed this step length in soft sand, but he certainly didn't look natural doing it. AFAIK Bob H has never mentioned that he took extra long strides in the sand. But he would have had to purposefully take longer strides inside a bulky suit to be Patty. His only comments were that he has the same walk as Patty and his demos never showed a long step length. IMO, this is a glaring omission.



This is what Bob would look like if he took 41" steps.



IMO, the figure in the PGF made the tracks, guy in a suit or whatever. I don't think they were made later. The figure demonstrated a 41" step length in at least 1 frame of the PGF. Did Bob H take 41" steps? Kit, would you please ask him, without any prompting?
Óðinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:15 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.