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Tags Aleister Crowley , Thelema

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Old 31st May 2016, 02:27 AM   #1
TheAdversary
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Evidence for Thelema.

This post got moved a couple of times, because the moderators didn't think it was relevant. It is because it contains evidence for the existence
of 'occult' phenomena. The last time I posted it, it was in response to someone who tried to ridicule Thelema, just to show that there's more to
Thelema than 'hogwash'.

I can provide evidence for the 'occult' as well. (Hint : Show me the money!!!)
The point is that there are remarks in this revealed document, Liber 418, that speak of the relation between contradiction and continuity
and Zeno's Arrow Paradox. Much of this knowledge was beyond what was known at the time and certainly beyond Crowley's knowledge, as Crowley himself
acknowledges many times in the Book; The communicating entity also says this over and over. 'utterly beyond thine understanding'
The Book was revealed after the performance of Sex Magick Rituals. The fact that it's communicating knowledge beyond the capabilities of the
receiver proves the communicating entity legit, in this sort of Operation.

Let's start with Achilles and the Tortoise. Achilles is very fast, so the Tortoise is given a head start in their little competition.
Now, whenever Achilles moves, the Tortoise moves as well. Slower maybe, but he still moves. And since there's never a moment where Achilles moves and the
Tortoise doesn't advance his position, from this Zeno concluded that Achilles could never overtake the Tortoise. And since there's obviously no such
problem in the real world, you have a paradox. So what's wrong? Measure is improperly defined. Measure or lenght, area and volume, cannot be defined
by summing points on the real line. A line might be composed of an infinite number of points, you cannot define the length of a line in this way without
running into paradox. A proper measure function, that obeys the rules of summation, needs to be defined. Then the Achilles/Tortoise problem disappears.
There's also another way to remove the paradox using smooth infinitesimal analysis, where a point doesn't have zero measure, (which is the source of the
paradox, that a point has dimension zero,) but infinitesimal measure. And summing points as infinitesimals is an integral, obeying the rules of a proper
measure.
(For those of you interested in my Religious theory, you might want to check out Liber 418 by Aleister Crowley, The Cry of the 5th Aethyr.
The Vision of the Arrow therein described is a version of Zeno's Arrow Paradox, but whereas the paradox can be resolved by relaxing the law of excluded
middle (smooth infinitesimal analysis), the Vision describes a higher problem of the continuum to be resolved by relaxing the law of no contradiction.)

Later in the discussion I wrote this :

The physical sciences are now becoming so nonsensical, they really can't laugh at Scientologists any more. That would be almost, but not quite,
completely hypocritical of them. And now Crowley's system actually has more evidence going for it.
Are there any books about Magical Simulation Programmers talking about interesting Philosophical or Mathematical issues that weren't known before?
(And before you think I believe in Angels or Gods, I don't. I think the further step in understanding the Universe will turn out to require
Aesthetics, so the Deities are like literary devices. I'm presenting a new Logic Theory.)

Thoughts?
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Old 31st May 2016, 02:39 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Thoughts?
I'm a physical scientist, and I have no difficulty whatsoever laughing at scientologists.

Nothing else strikes me.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 02:52 AM   #3
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If you are to start a new thread about Thelema, it might be worth saying who Thelema is, and what is claimed on his/ her behalf, don't you think? You might also say who Crowley is, what the Liber 418 document is, and give a summary of Zena's Arrow Paradox if they are pertinent to whatever point you are trying to make. Having done that, you could link to some supporting evidence for whatever you are trying to say.

So, poor attempt at an OP. Have another try.
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Old 31st May 2016, 02:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
I'm a physical scientist, and I have no difficulty whatsoever laughing at scientologists.
So no problem believing in an infinity of Multiverses, or believing reality is a Computer Simulation but you do have issues with this?
You do realize that using Multiverse theory, you're almost, but not quite, capable of proving that Lord Xenu exists?
The only reason you prefer those theories is because they're 'sciency', but without a single shred of evidence that means nothing. Just a cultural leftover.
That's already hypocritical, and laughing is just a natural way of getting rid of ideas you don't want to know about in your head. The Gay Science, remember?
But now I'm presenting actual, physical, evidence. Against Materialism mind you, not against the Science of the Physical World.
Let's talk about the evidence, please.

Last edited by TheAdversary; 31st May 2016 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
So no problem believing in an infinity of Multiverses, or believing reality is a Computer Simulation but you do have issues with this?
Rule of So alert! You do realise that Multiverses and Simulated existence are just postulations, not actual science, don't you?

Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
The only reason you prefer those theories.......
Straw man alert! Demonstrate that anyone here "prefers those theories".
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:09 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by MikeG
If you are to start a new thread about Thelema, it might be worth saying who Thelema is, and what is claimed on his/ her behalf, don't you think?
You might also say who Crowley is, what the Liber 418 document is, and give a summary of Zena's Arrow Paradox if they are pertinent to whatever point you
are trying to make. Having done that, you could link to some supporting evidence for whatever you are trying to say.

So, poor attempt at an OP. Have another try.
I'm running under the assumption that Thelema and Aleister Crowley are well known, in a pop-cultural sense of the word. I think that's fair.
And you do have google and an inquiring mind if you want to know the consensus position. Which is _not_ mine, usually.
So, I've limited myself to providing information that is not known, that you won't find anywhere else.
And I have described Liber 418 as an allegedly revealed document that was received after the performance of Sex Magick Rituals.
I also gave a good description of Achilles and the Tortoise, which is solved in the same way as Zeno's Arrow Paradox because it's the same problem :
Improper definition of continuity leading to paradox. And then I did give a link, albeit an old-fashioned one, to the relevant chapter in the Book.
And then you can make up your own mind. But remember that any evidence is already more evidence than that provided for the current consensus position
theories like Magical Computer Simulation Programmers. Do you have any supporting evidence for that?

Poor attempt at a rebuttal! Next!

Here's a link :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/418/aetyr5.htm
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by MikeG
Rule of So alert! You do realise that Multiverses and Simulated existence are just postulations, not actual science, don't you?
Which is why it's so interesting that a Religion now starts trumping Physical Science in evidence! And why aren't they researching Thelema, then?
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by MikeG
Straw man alert! Demonstrate that anyone here "prefers those theories".
I've been arguing here for about a year now, most, but not all, here are hardcore Materialists. This can be verified by others as well by just following the
discussions that happen on this board.
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
So no problem believing in an infinity of Multiverses, or believing reality is a Computer Simulation but you do have issues with this?
Stop telling lies about what I "believe in". I don't "believe in" multiverses or that reality is a computer simulation. The concept of a multiverse is a postulate worthy of serious consideration, but not one that is proven or disproven, so I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. The same is true of reality being a computer simulation. Until there's evidence for or against, they're just interesting talking points.

Anyway, you asked for thoughts, and for me your OP only provoked that one.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:45 AM   #10
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What's a Thelema?
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:48 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
What's a Thelema?
It's what happens when you cannot make a decision.
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Old 31st May 2016, 03:50 AM   #12
TheAdversary
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
Stop telling lies about what I "believe in". I don't "believe in" multiverses or that reality is a computer simulation. The concept of a
multiverse is a postulate worthy of serious consideration, but not one that is proven or disproven, so I neither believe nor disbelieve in it. The same is
true of reality being a computer simulation. Until there's evidence for or against, they're just interesting talking points.
The point is that Computer Simulation and Multiverses are accepted in academia. Thelema is not. Why? It can't be the evidence because the amount of evidence
is zero. And Thelema has actual evidence going for it, at least more than the 'sciency' speculative stuff. This should change, then.
Thelema should then also be taken seriously in academia. Aleister Crowley's body of Work is worthy of serious consideration.
But I've got a feeling that's not going to happen ...
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:13 AM   #13
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OK, more thoughts. You've posted a link to a highly ambiguous text that you've chosen to interpret in a way that makes very little sense, and you're now claiming (if I can understand your opaque style) that this points to a scientific revelation of principles that either were not known at the time or are still not known. As evidence for this you're pointing to a vague passage that could be interpreted as a reference to an ancient paradox that, so far as I can tell, was satisfactorily resolved by Liebnitz and Newton. You're also claiming that the passage says it contains knowledge that was beyond Crowley's understanding, therefore it does. None of this points to anything resembling evidence.

So what I would suggest is that you do the following.
(1) Choose a suitable piece of information that supposedly was relayed to Crowley.
(2) Demonstrate that your interpretation of this information is at least a defensible one.
(3) Demonstrate that this information could not have been known to Crowley at the time.
(4) Phrase all the above in language that can be comprehended without the aid of hallucinogenic drugs.

Then you might get a serious response.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
satisfactorily resolved by Liebnitz and Newton.
No, it wasn't. They had to sweep infinities under the rug by ways of the limit notation. A proper definition of infinitesimals wasn't given until
Robinson developed non-standard analysis in the sixties.
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:45 AM   #15
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+Dave Rogers
Ok, I'm going to provide more examples of passages in Liber 418 to strengthen my argument. I'll try to find ideas that are easier to understand but
you have to know that Liber 418 is a book about a new Logic Theory that can handle logical trivialism. Here's a passage :

Originally Posted by The Cry of the 4th Aethyr
Holy art thou, Chaos, Chaos, Eternity, all contradictions in terms!
In the meantime, can you do the same for Multiverse or Computer Simulation theory? Then we can weigh the evidence.
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:46 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
No, it wasn't. They had to sweep infinities under the rug by ways of the limit notation. A proper definition of infinitesimals wasn't given until
Robinson developed non-standard analysis in the sixties.
Assuming for the sake of argument that this is a reasonable statement (which I don't agree with; Robinson himself claimed that his work was a vindication of Liebniz's ideas), please justify your implicit assertion, therefore, that the Crowley text can only be interpreted as referring to Robinson's analysis and cannot possibly refer to the centuries-old approach of calculus, which Crowley could very easily have been aware of. If you can do that, you may not have a good argument, but you'll at least have an argument.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:48 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Here's a passage :
Which I'm sure you can interpret a hundred different ways. It proves nothing because it says nothing.

Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
In the meantime, can you do the same for Multiverse or Computer Simulation theory?
Why would I want to? They're no more than unproven hypotheses.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:53 AM   #18
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Sorry but in all seriousness, I can't see what you're claiming as evidence in the OP. It all would appear to be a claim/assertion, from which unsupported conclusions are drawn - as if the assertions were a given.
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:56 AM   #19
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I mean, vague evidence already trumps no evidence. But the ideas expressed in Liber 418 are not vague at all. They coincide with deep mathematical
truths. That's what provided the evidence for me to take it more seriously than other supposed 'revealed' texts.
But none of it is easy to understand or to explain. In fact, I've been arguing on this board for some time to get certain ideas across ...
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Old 31st May 2016, 04:59 AM   #20
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Googling Thelema led me here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema which seems to describe it as a religion/philosophy of life discovered by or revealed to Crowley. If that is the case, what does science need to explore? - it's as non-falsifiable as any other religion.

If I've misunderstood, could you explain what it is you understand by thelema?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:04 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
I've been arguing here for about a year now, most, but not all, here are hardcore Materialists. This can be verified by others as well by just following the
discussions that happen on this board.
Dave gave the perfect answer to this, but I'll just say the following. Being a materialist, or a reductionist, or a sceptic, of whatever, doesn't mean accepting absolutely every single postulate that every other materialist, or reductionist, or sceptic, or whatever, comes up with. If people want to investigate ideas such as multiverses and the like, then fine, but it is of no interest to me. I no more believe in them than I believe in anything else. When they bring evidence, tested, replicated evidence, then I'll take a serious look. And the same with you: bring us evidence, not belief. Oh, and it would help your cause if you could write more clearly and without assumptions of our familiarity with obtuse subjects such as "Thelema", and if you could link us to readable evidence in support of your case.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
It proves nothing because it says nothing.
Look up what 'Logical Trivialism' actually means. Then you'll see how well this passage expresses it. I'm sorry it's gibberish to you but
so are books on Abstract Algebra to the layman.
And my point is that you're much more forgiving towards Computer Simulation theorists than to this. Why is that? You could abandon
Multiverse or Computer Simulation for the same reasons. Is Computer Simulation theory falsifiable, then?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:10 AM   #23
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You seem to think that as sceptics, we must hold the multiverse theory and/or the computer simulation theory to be true. As far as I'm aware, they are hypotheticals, so I do not hold them to be true unless there is evidence, and this is the position of most here.

What do they have to do with thelema anyway?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:15 AM   #24
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"Let's start with Achilles and the Tortoise. Achilles is very fast, so the Tortoise is given a head start in their little competition.
Now, whenever Achilles moves, the Tortoise moves as well. Slower maybe, but he still moves. And since there's never a moment where Achilles moves and the
Tortoise doesn't advance his position, from this Zeno concluded that Achilles could never overtake the Tortoise."

If Achilles is faster he will eventually catch up with the Tortoise, given enough time. No matter that they both move at the same time. How long it takes depends on the head start the tortoise has and the difference of speed between the two. A simple computer mock-up can show this. There is no paradox here at all.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Look up what 'Logical Trivialism' actually means. Then you'll see how well this passage expresses it.
Andrew Lloyd Weber expressed it equally precisely in the lyrics of "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina," in the line "Every word is true". So *********** what?

And please stop wittering on about multiverses and computer simulations. Nobody's interested in defending your strawmen.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
What's a Thelema?
She drove into the Grand Canyon with Louise.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Agatha
What do they have to do with thelema anyway?
Thelema has _more_ evidence going for it than Simulation Theory or Multiverses, yet it's not a part of academia and will face extreme opposition
on a sceptics board and people are much more forgiving towards Simulation or Multiverse even though they are _more_ problematic from
a scientific perspective. They have zero evidence.
And Thelema has this to say about it : Why? Because of the fall of Because, that he is not there again.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Thelema has _more_ evidence going for it than Simulation Theory or Multiverses, yet it's not a part of academia and will face extreme opposition
on a sceptics board and people are much more forgiving towards Simulation or Multiverse even though they are _more_ problematic from
a scientific perspective. They have zero evidence.
And Thelema has this to say about it : Why? Because of the fall of Because, that he is not there again.
What does moral philosophy have to do with science?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Which is why it's so interesting that a Religion now starts trumping Physical Science in evidence!

When did this happen?

Did I miss a meeting??
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:31 AM   #30
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Someone needs to use the word paraeidolia in this thread. This is a classic example. Crowley's texts are simply linguistic white noise. TheAdversary is attempting to find patterns in them, and, unsurprisingly, is finding the patterns s/he is looking for.

Dave
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:36 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cayvmann
If Achilles is faster he will eventually catch up with the Tortoise, given enough time. No matter that they both move at the same time.
How long it takes depends on the head start the tortoise has and the difference of speed between the two. A simple computer mock-up can show this.
There is no paradox here at all.
You're measuring time properly in that case, so measure is properly defined obeying the rules of summation, as I've already stated in the OP.
But you'll run into further paradoxes, like the Banach-Tarski Paradox. To resolve _all_ paradoxes of continuity requires a logic that
can handle trivialism. That's the further issue of the continuum I'm talking about; It's beyond non-standard analysis even. And Liber 418
actually has interesting things to say about this if you're into this subject. You just need to learn its language. It's worth it.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:41 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Cayvmann View Post
....There is no paradox here at all.
There isn't, if you don't want there to be. But if you do want there to be a paradox, you frame it in terms of halving the distance between them, and then of course, you have simply linguistically set up the paradox you sought. Which seems (for reasons I haven't fathomed) to suit TheAdversary's argument. Or, at least, s/he seems to think it does.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
Thelema has _more_ evidence going for it than Simulation Theory or Multiverses, yet it's not a part of academia and will face extreme opposition
on a sceptics board and people are much more forgiving towards Simulation or Multiverse even though they are _more_ problematic from
a scientific perspective. They have zero evidence.
Show us this evidence for Thelema, then. Nobody on this thread is proposing evidence for simulation theory or multiverses, and you bringing them up as something that you believe sceptics support is a strawman argument, not to mention off-topic in this thread.
Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
And Thelema has this to say about it : Why? Because of the fall of Because, that he is not there again.
Thelema says this about what? And what does that phrase mean?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
And please stop wittering on about multiverses and computer simulations. Nobody's interested in defending your strawmen.
No, the correct statement is : Nobody wants to know that Multiverses and Computer Simulations are Religions, and very poor ones at that.
This point is fundamental. It shows there's something wrong in science-land. The only reason to prefer Computer Simulations over
Angels and Demons is that they're 'sciency', as some cultural leftover. Remember, if the world is a simulation, maybe one of those magical programmers
just thinks Angels and Demons are cool! See what I mean? There's no difference _except_ that Multiverse theory is science-like. And that's not Science.
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:57 AM   #35
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Even if everyone agrees with you that multiverses and simulation theory are religions rather than science, that still doesn't advance your case that there is evidence for Thelema at all.

Perhaps you could post your evidence for Thelema?
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Old 31st May 2016, 05:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
No, the correct statement is : Nobody wants to know that Multiverses and Computer Simulations are Religions, and very poor ones at that.
There seems little point in responding, since you're clearly uninterested in trying to comprehend; but these are postulates, not beliefs. They are unproven possibilities that we may want to consider the possibility of evidence for and against, and until such evidence exists, judgement is suspended on them. And if we were to find evidence for them, it wouldn't be in the form of dubious interpretations of the random word salads of a drug-addled hedonist with a severe personality disorder.

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Old 31st May 2016, 05:59 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Agatha
Show us this evidence for Thelema, then. Nobody on this thread is proposing evidence for simulation theory or multiverses,
and you bringing them up as something that you believe sceptics support is a strawman argument, not to mention off-topic in this thread.
I've explained it. It's deep, and it requires study. Post #31 does a good job. But the main point was actually to show that Thelema is more plausible than the
rubbish modern scientist peddle. And that's not a straw man, evidenced by many discussions on this board. Including this one, in fact.
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Old 31st May 2016, 06:03 AM   #38
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I read about Aleister Crowly a lifetime ago; I thought he was talking occult nonsense then and have never changed my mind. Wikipedia points out that he did mountaineering and may well have written facts about that, but occult facts? No such thing.
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Old 31st May 2016, 06:06 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
No, the correct statement is : Nobody wants to know that Multiverses and Computer Simulations are Religions, and very poor ones at that.
Repeat this crap and you'll lose half your audience. No-one here treats either of these two subjects as anything anywhere near a religion, nor even as ideas which science is taking seriously. Is that clear?


Originally Posted by TheAdversary View Post
This point is fundamental. It shows there's something wrong in science-land.
No, it shows that your grasp of science is extremely weak. It shows that you will mis-define your opposition's position in the way that suits your argument. In other words, this is your problem, not ours.
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Last edited by MikeG; 31st May 2016 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 31st May 2016, 06:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Someone needs to use the word paraeidolia in this thread. This is a classic example. Crowley's texts are simply linguistic white noise. TheAdversary is attempting to find patterns in them, and, unsurprisingly, is finding the patterns s/he is looking for.

Dave
Nah, if someone just uses the word "pareidolia", that's just going to feed your desire to find patterns in the words and unsurprisingly find the patterns your looking for.










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