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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Bob Heironimus , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 11th March 2010, 01:03 PM   #561
wolftrax
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Thank you very much, Wolf. You have my respect and your counterpoint is invaluable. The issues and questions you post are very good. The great thing is that I can put those questions to Bob personally.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm glad you can, I know you asked for people to ask questions before you talked to him, I saw the "Roger holding camera on horse" question asked, and as far as that I didn't really think of the other stuff as prominently until after you interviewed him and he gave another view of the costume post Morris recreation.

Quote:
The film is a fake. I have never been more certain of that in my life. I grew up looking at it endlessly, thinking it was a real Bigfoot, and now I know better. I know the PGF is a hoax like I know the sun wiil rise tomorrow. Wolf, I would appreciate if you could address post #527 with the questions that Sweaty is to afraid to answer. I will go ahead and address your points in a post after this one, but first let me put out a few things to you.
Oh God, you're going to make me read a post addressed to Sweaty? Where's the puking smiley? lol ok, well the whole Bob H lives right by Gimlin thing is fact and long established, the film footage of Bob H in Patterson's movie is even more damning, but the questions on why if Bob H was lying did he and Gimlin talk to each other at a horse show and not talk about Bob H's claims pretty much is Bob H's word, could have happened or may not have been exactly as Bob H claimed. They could be avoiding talking about it, it may actually still bother Gimlin, but then again it may be something else entirely I'll talk about towards the end of this post that will also address the who court case against Bob H from Gimlin and Patterson.

Quote:
If the PGF were made now, Bigfoot enthusiasts would eat Roger Patterson alive. The BFF would be his roasting pit and would reek of the smell of charred human flesh. Wolf, did you know Roger claimed to John Green when John visited him in February 1967 the year after he released his book and eight months before his film was revealed to the world to be the inventor of the little plastic thingy that keeps bread bags closed? That's not a joke. Who does that remind you of? A guy with an alleged Bigfoot on film claiming the invention of widely used items. Can you say Creekfreek? Here's some of the blood in the water that would trigger the feeding frenzy on Roger...
I'm not so sure, I've gotten into tons of huge time suck arguments over much lesser valued evidence that to this day believers love to cling to.

The whole bread clip thing was second hand from Green, Patterson did make the pop-lock thing and it was from the bread clips he got the idea, after explaining this to Green, Green might have misunderstood.

Quote:
- What's that? You mailed a film Friday evening, October 20th, 1967 from Eureka to Yakima by registered airmail to arrive at Yakima Saturday, October 21st and be taken by the guy funding you to Seatte to be developed and then shown at his house back in Yakima on Sunday afternoon? Did you know that there were no airports in Eureka or Arcata in 1967? Maybe a chartered aircraft, you say? Did you know that of the five charter pilots living in the area in 1967, Peter Byrne spoke with four (fifth deceased) and all of their log books showed heavy rain and strong winds for October 20th, 1967. Neither did any of the logs show any deliveries at all for that day in which the pilots would have flown only under extreme emergency conditions.
I didn't know about the no airport in Arcata thing, I thought a few people told me they did have an airport at the time, and where did the charter pilots in the area fly out of>

Quote:
Of course, if they gave the film to Bob Heironimus to mail by U.S. Postal Service from Eureka well before that date, as Bob claimed he did, then, well, problem solved. Bob did say he was there only overnight and that he had come down on either a Monday or a Wednesday of either September or October and that it was hot. Bob also told me that Roger and Bob only had his horse, Chico, for eight days.
Yeah the timeline always bugged me.

Quote:
- Sweaty often has sarcastically stated that Roger Patterson was a lucky guy because of certain features on Patty he thinks that are consistent with a real animal. BFF Bigfoot enthusiasts would have a field day with the luck Patterson had if he were around now. You make a book about Bigfoot one year in which you steal some guys art, slap your name on it, and prominently showcase an encounter that matches nearly verbatim your description of of the encounter you film the very next years?
Not to mention that actual sketches he did do that have those features he emphasized he would need to add to a human to make Patty...

Quote:
I used to think that astronomical luck element was one of the most glaring indicators of a hoax by Patterson. Now I know there is much, much worse. It seems Roger Patterson was a literal Babe Ruth. Let me explain. The PGF started out as supposed to be a three-way deal with Al DeAtley, the money man funding Roger, and Patterson and Gimlin sharing the profits. Roger screws Gimlin and him and DeAtley go on to make serious money. Years later Bigfoot legendaries John Green and Peter Byrne at separate times individually try to talk to DeAtley. In 1998 John Green tried to find out from DeAtley where the film was processed. DeAtley didn't want to talk to Green. Wouldn't tell him anything. Byrne tries the same thing. He has a big problem with the way the film was handled after being shot and traveled up and down the west coast investigating it. In his words about trying to ask DeAtley how the film was processed...

"I did. I talked to him two or three times on the film. I tried to see him but he wouldn't see me. He doesn't want to talk about it. It's extremely difficult to get him to talk."

But Byrne was dogged and finally did manage to get DeAtley on the phone...

"He said to me, 'It's fake. I know it's fake' I said 'How do you know it's fake?' He said, 'Listen. He (Patterson) told us all he was going down there and find the Bigfoot and shoot some footage and come back. He did. He went down there. That's just goddamn luck, or something. That doesn't happen in real life, you know.' Ivan marx did the same thing. He was living in Northern California, and he told people he was going to northern Washington and find a Bigfoot, get footage, and come back and sellit and make lots of money. he did exactly the same thing. Then, at the same time, almost in the same breath, DeAtley said, 'But, don't quote me on that with people here. This is the family here (in Yakima).' DeAtley is married to Roger's sister. DeAtley said, 'They all believe Roger. They all believed in his integrity. They all believe that film is real.I'm the outsider here.' he had a few very derogatory things to say about Roger. My guess is he really didn't like him."

Of course Roger told DeAtley he was going to film a Bigfoot at Bluff Creek. DeAtley was the money. He had to make the money man excited. And then he comes back with just what he said he would. Sweet Zombie Jesus, somebody give that man a baseball bat. He just pointed out to center field. That is just no reality at all. Seriously, if that happened now, Patterson would be served on a platter with an apple in his mouth at the BFF.
I was disappointed with Long's treatment of DeAtley, I felt he treated him with kids gloves because of DeAtley's prominence and wealth. I felt he didn't ask him the tough questions or probe enough into DeAtley's role from the people who knew him, and worked for him. Let's just say that those who knew him also know he wasn't the money man known today and how he got that money plays a role.

Quote:
- If Roger was alive now and shot the PGF now, what would the BFF Bigfoot enthusiasts make of the fact that he was arrested for grand larceny? Harold Mattson was the owner of Sheppard's Camera Shop in Yakima where Patterson rented the 16mm camera. Peter Byrne spoke with Harold mattson about the charges he brought against Patterson. In Byrnes own words...

"He confirmed that Patterson rented the camera in May 1967 and never paid the rental fees to where in November they went out to his house after sending him several warnings and a registered letter. The Yakima County Sherrif's Department went out and arrested him and hauled him in."

I've seen apologist footers hum that away as simply being forgetful. I don't think they'd be so quick to do that if it was now and they knew Patterson was obviously dodging his rental fees. And what would BFF proponents do if Patterson was around now and they knew he signed a bad check for $300 or $400 worth of film? And what would they do with Patterson now if they knew he had swindled a woman for a very large sum of money. You will remember the money Patterson borrowed from Vilma Radford...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...94575567b8.jpg

Here are some letters Vilma sent Roger when Roger refused to pay he back the money she had given him...

De. 29, 1967

Since you have ignored us regarding money already six months past due, our patience has worn thin.

Unless we receive money immediately and an accounting of receipts, for our percentage of BIG FOOT, we will be forced to take legal action.


Another from January 10th, 1968...

You have numerous notices for collection of note re BIG FOOT, leaving us no alternative but to turn this over for collection by attachment of magazine rights, etc. Unless money is received by January 17th, we will proceed to do so.

She did. She sued Roger. She hired attorney Bill McArdle to handle her case, who had alread beeen approached by a number of people wanting to take legal action after being swindled by Patterson.

I think Roger Patterson had attempted the same thing now that he had in 1967, he would have been taken down to Chinatown quicker than you can say "Georgia Boyz."
All great things to indicate a shady character on Patterson's part. Heck there's even more if one looks deep enough. All indications of a hoax being played, especially compared to Georgia boys and Gimlin and the whole native costume/later impersonator thing. But unfortunately it doesn't necessarily mean Bob H was the guy in the suit.

So now I'll talk about Gimlin and his treatment of Bob H, as well as court cases brought against Bob H from Gimlin and Patricia Patterson.

So let's say this film is a hoax. Patterson knows it, Gimlin knows it, DeAtley knows it.

Now let's say Bob H was in the movie asa cowboy, was promised money that he never got, made a suit to hoax on the roadside for kicks, and felt Roger owed him. Sees the Romney thing, and thinks if he claimed to be in the suit when Romney denied it he could be on TV and make some money. So he lies.

Now let's say Gimlin and Patterson want to sue this guy. They talk to their lawyer and realize that Bob H was in Patterson's movie, his horse was there, Long's book came out characterizing Patterson as a crook, and somehow in this case they are going to have review this film and try to show the film is the real deal, which they know it's not, or that Bob H wasn't in it, in which case their only alibi is the REAL person in the suit. Pffffffft, there goes the case, there goes the money maker, and public opinion? Whew....

Ok, now let's be fair and say the film is the real deal. Same thing, take it to court and you have to address the film's validity, lawyers don't buy it, judge won't buy it, jury won't buy it, gets torn to shreds and how much money do you want to waste on it? DeAtley's washed his hands of it, he isn't pitching in.

Anyways, as I said, I can see the film as a hoax. I just have a really hard time with Bob H's story.
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Old 11th March 2010, 03:32 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
Now let's say Bob H was in the movie asa cowboy, was promised money that he never got, made a suit to hoax on the roadside for kicks, and felt Roger owed him. Sees the Romney thing, and thinks if he claimed to be in the suit when Romney denied it he could be on TV and make some money. So he lies.
Quickly, Wolf, a few points this raises for me...

1) I really need to ask Bob directly about whether or not he dressed up in any Bigfoots to scare people for fun on the roadside or wherever.

2) If Bob decided to lie after he saw Romney deny being Patty, why did he willingly submit to and pass two polygraphs? Remember, the important bit is that he submitted to the process believing that a polygraph would reliably detect any lying on his part. That doesn't make any sense.

3) Roger told Deatley he would go film a Bigfoot and he did. That is just way too much.
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Old 11th March 2010, 04:37 PM   #563
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1) Yeah if you read Long's book, you have Byrne and one of Pattesron's relatives, it's been awhile, I htink he was a nephew but he might have been a younger cousin, anyways both saying Bob H was hoaxing the community in a grey horse hide suit, and then Patterson's last sketch and sighting in his book is a contemporary sighting of a silver squatch on the roadside. Then also in Long's book, I beleive it was Merrit, who was saying his wife saw one peeping in a window at her, they let the dog out and it bit the squatch right in the crotch. Then you have these guys at the bar (several of them) saying they saw Bob H showing off this suit for a period of time, saying something like "We're going to fool them!", yet Bob H said he didn't show it to anybody besides his mom and nephew seeing it (going by memory here) and only had it for less than 3 days, first day filming and staying at a hotel, next day driving home and crashing out, waking on the third day when his mom asked what the costume was, and that night Patterson allegedly took the suit from the trunk.

2) You know, I watched that show where he took the polygraph, and from what I understand it works off of the heart rate. Bob H is asked the first question, again going by memory on what it was, either if he was lying or if he wore the suit, and he screams his answer and you see the needles go all over the place. Camera cuts away, he's asked a second time, only this time he's way calm, almost lucid like he's meditating, answers quietly, and the needles stay steady.

I have always thought someone could pass a lie detector test if they were in a meditative calm state and maintained that even while lying, and it looks like what Bob H was doing, not necessarily the lying but the meditating.

3) Heh, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

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Old 11th March 2010, 07:33 PM   #564
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Old 12th March 2010, 09:04 AM   #565
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Hey, K., maybe you could ask Morris which (if any) of the lines at the following collage are closer to the original costume's parts.
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Old 12th March 2010, 11:23 PM   #566
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So....Heironimus said that the legs of the suit "felt like hip waders"?


Well...Patty's legs mimic, very nicely, the look of ALL-NATURAL legs...especially on the backside, where the shape/contour is determined predominately by soft flesh, and muscle, rather than by bone...








Fantastic work by Roger.

It's a shame he never revealed any of the suit's 'inner workings' to Bob, though.
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:30 AM   #567
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wolf,

Although I've heard of BH's roadside antics, I never knew it was a grey horsehide suit. I wonder if he made it? It looks like Dfoot's theory about those sightings being due to a Corrigan suit has some serious competition.

As for the clothes under the suit issue, does anyone know the temperature of Bluff Creek in October and/or what Bob H. said he was wearing? I've linked to pics of men in sweatsuits emerging from Godzilla suits before (filmed under very bright-and hot-lights), so some types of clothes might not be out of the question.

As for the face, I see no issue in swapping out the face of a mask if the mask has the desired head shape, but the facial features don't match what the person in charge wants. Especially if modification would be impossible or more expensive. This might be an example of that in action. Not sure if the suits match, though.

These links also offer other ways a costume or mask can stink. I suspect the implication is that the leather was improperly prepared and rotting. That said, I'm still skeptical of Bob H's story. He's looking more and more like a prankster who saw his chance for a major (and profitable) prank.

Oh, and it doesn't say much about "newspaper man" Green's journalistic skills if he really did screw up a quote like that.

Bonus links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Costume
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_Corrigan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Calvert
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:29 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
wolf,

Although I've heard of BH's roadside antics, I never knew it was a grey horsehide suit. I wonder if he made it? It looks like Dfoot's theory about those sightings being due to a Corrigan suit has some serious competition.

As for the clothes under the suit issue, does anyone know the temperature of Bluff Creek in October and/or what Bob H. said he was wearing? I've linked to pics of men in sweatsuits emerging from Godzilla suits before (filmed under very bright-and hot-lights), so some types of clothes might not be out of the question.

As for the face, I see no issue in swapping out the face of a mask if the mask has the desired head shape, but the facial features don't match what the person in charge wants. Especially if modification would be impossible or more expensive. This might be an example of that in action. Not sure if the suits match, though.

These links also offer other ways a costume or mask can stink. I suspect the implication is that the leather was improperly prepared and rotting. That said, I'm still skeptical of Bob H's story. He's looking more and more like a prankster who saw his chance for a major (and profitable) prank.

Oh, and it doesn't say much about "newspaper man" Green's journalistic skills if he really did screw up a quote like that.

Bonus links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Costume
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_Corrigan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Calvert
He doesn't need to be a hoaxer or a liar to make up facts as the years go on. He's probably been a storyteller his entire life and he may think the straight story isn't interesting enough so he embellishes it. That doesn't automatically mean he wasn't the bloke in the suit.
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:36 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I think he did wear blue jeans and I think if he had a wallet in his side pocket, it is higher up the side...

Blue jeans don't have side pockets. They have front and back pockets only. Cargo pants have front, back and side pockets.
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Old 13th March 2010, 04:54 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Blue jeans don't have side pockets. They have front and back pockets only. Cargo pants have front, back and side pockets.
My bad. When I said side pocket, I meant front pock.
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Old 13th March 2010, 05:05 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Fantastic work by Roger.

It's a shame he never revealed any of the suit's 'inner workings' to Bob, though.
I'm mesmerized. The back of the leg is not concave or zig-zagging like an accordian, but rather looks like a leg. I was distracted by the ridiculous, crackless bubble butt, and the goofy slipper feet, but yes, I see that now. I'll be sure to ask Bob if he thought the legs felt loose or tight on him.

In the meantime, Sweaty, I would like you to address post #527 regarding Bob being a liar. Can you do that, please?
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 13th March 2010, 05:08 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
Hey, K., maybe you could ask Morris which (if any) of the lines at the following collage are closer to the original costume's parts.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../PattySuit.jpg
I could ask him to check a link, bit I'll be on the phone, so it will be difficult to do that.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:44 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
wolf,

Although I've heard of BH's roadside antics, I never knew it was a grey horsehide suit. I wonder if he made it? It looks like Dfoot's theory about those sightings being due to a Corrigan suit has some serious competition.
Bob H and the grey horsehide suit came from Long's Book, Byrne mentions Bob H was known as a hoaxer in the community and Patterson's nephew (may be his cousin, it has to have been about 5 years since I read the book) said Bob H hoaxed with a grey horse hide suit. Patterson's book has the silvery sasquatch sighting in it, right at the end and with a sketch, I can post that later if you want.

Anybody know where this whole Pattesron and Merrit worked at Corriganville thing originated from? Was it just from Dfoot, or somewhere else? I'd really like some osrt of reliable source of confirmation of that, "Crash" being the gorilla man guy.

Quote:
As for the clothes under the suit issue, does anyone know the temperature of Bluff Creek in October and/or what Bob H. said he was wearing? I've linked to pics of men in sweatsuits emerging from Godzilla suits before (filmed under very bright-and hot-lights), so some types of clothes might not be out of the question.
If you have those images, I'd like to see them, just to be sure they weren't wearing lycra or spandex body suits to absorb the sweat and prolong the life of the rubber suit. This would be a much lighter material than a sweat suit or regular clothing, and Patty's case may actually be integral to the suit.

There's another issue I have with it though I unfortunately can't get into until later.

Quote:
As for the face, I see no issue in swapping out the face of a mask if the mask has the desired head shape, but the facial features don't match what the person in charge wants. Especially if modification would be impossible or more expensive. This might be an example of that in action. Not sure if the suits match, though.
Morris's mask may have been totally wrong for what Patterson needed, and granted leather working is what he did, but in light of several other features of the suit and circumstances I see no reason why he wouldn't just make it out of latex.

Quote:
These links also offer other ways a costume or mask can stink. I suspect the implication is that the leather was improperly prepared and rotting.
Could very well be, though a foam latex mask wouldn't be necessary and a bit of overkill in terms of cost and difficulty compared to the result of no facial movement required. The body suit though, Bob H just tried it on one time before the filming, it was adjusted for him, and if this came from Morris then it was unused. That reduces the chance of stink factor from prevous use.

But all of these are valid reasons you point out for it stinks and I don't really have an objection to them. What really bugs me though, about the whole stink thing, is Bob H initially said the suit stank because Roger skinned a dead red horse, and then now with Morris's suiting him up and the recreation he changes the suit to be made of dynel, and only the mask stank.

Quote:
That said, I'm still skeptical of Bob H's story. He's looking more and more like a prankster who saw his chance for a major (and profitable) prank.
You know, I don't really have anything against Bob H being the guy in the suit. He very well could be, and 40 years later just doesn't have any memory of how it went down, and the people promoting him just filled in the blanks. We tend to go over Gimlin and Patterson's stories with fine toothed combs though, and I think rightfully so, and it just seems with Bob H changing his story all of the time, it just becomes hard to buy. But, he could very well be the guy....

Quote:
Oh, and it doesn't say much about "newspaper man" Green's journalistic skills if he really did screw up a quote like that.
:lol: agreed and not the first problem I would have with said skills...

Great to hear your thoughts on this, Atomic, the whole costume aspect is my favorite part of discussing this film.

Hey, could you give a little more background on what you do for that horror website, I read the link about knock off masks, do you guys go into costumes and how they were made?

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Old 14th March 2010, 10:49 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post

In the meantime, Sweaty, I would like you to address post #527 regarding Bob being a liar. Can you do that, please?

Here is post #527:

Quote:
Sweaty, I have some important questions regarding Bob Heironimus' claim of being Patty. I am willing to accept for the sake of argument that your drawing lines on 2D PGF stills in an attempt to measure the distances between Patty's spine and elbow at certain points establishes the impossibility of Heironimus having told the truth. Let's say that you're right, and that your elbow reach thing trumps or negates Bob's claim. Let's say that there really is about two feet from spine to elbow when Patty extends her elbow straight out from he body at a 45° angle.

Now this thread is called "Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty." This thread is about Bob Heironimus' claim of being Patty. Hence, I am going to discuss Bob's claim, including addressing it as a lie.. If the elbow reach eliminates Bob from contention, it is salient to discuss the elements of his claim. We don't simply say, "OK, Sweaty was right. Close the thread and don't ask anything about Bob Heironimus." You see, Sweaty, if Bob was lying, that leaves some very important and mysterious anomalies regarding his situation and how his claim came to be known by the world.

The following posts contain relevant questions which address those would-be anomalies in the event of Bob lying...

Originally Posted by kitakaze
Sure, OK, Sweaty. Let's say for argument's sake it does. What it does not change that what you call gobbledy-gook are actually facts. Surely if you are so confident, you don't need to refuse to discuss the facts I'm pointing out there.

These are the houses of Gimlin and Heironimus...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?...pictureid=2273

They have lived there since before the film was shot. Why is it that the only person who has ever claimed to be Patty is friends and neighbours with Gimlin? Gimlin could have sued Heironimus silly after Long's book came out. Why didn't he? Patty Patterson could have, also. Why didn't she? They didn't have an elbow analysis to cling to. They should have sued his butt off.

Why is it that BH could pass two well documented polygraphs when speaking about his involvement with his friend, Gimlin? He doesn't seem to be a pathological liar. He doesn't have a history of scamming people beyond his claim to be in the suit, if he was lying. He rides his horses and fixes up old Chevy's. How does he ace two polygraphs?

And he told me himself that he was with Gimlin at a horse show only two weeks ago, and that they didn't discuss Bigfoot. Should I doubt that? Why should I doubt that?

Have your trump and let's talk about this if your so confident. What's there to be afraid of? You always tell me I can't handle reality, Sweaty, but what I'm asking you about now is reality. No matter what you believe your pictures show, those things I am discussing are facts. So can you handle discussing those facts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitakaze
Yes, you said that already. Don't be sorry. I'll spot you. You win. Victory is yours and everything you've posted about elbows is true. I'll go with you on this. Let's accept as fact for the moment that it is physically impossible that Patty could have been Bob Heironimus in a suit and that he lied.

So then what part of my post you quoted was gobbledy-gook and why?

Here are some more important and highly relevant questions every reader here knows you will refuse to answer...

If Bob lied about being Patty, why when Greg Long first spoke with Bob on the phone did he deny any involvement in or knowledge of the Bigfoot documentary Patterson made? He was in that. There's no denying it. There he is on camera. He was in Patterson's film and friends with both him and Gimlin. If he was trying to fake being Patty, why did he try to hide it when some writer came looking for the truth?

Why did he deny to Greg Long that he ever associated with Patterson? Why did he deny that he was the man in the suit? Why did he say to Long when confronted with the facts of his involvement hat he could not discuss it yet, until he spoke with a lawyer? Why did he advise Long to speak with Gimlin because he knew more?

The point is to proceed with the assumption you are correct.

Will you address those questions? Yes or no.

Patty's extreme 'elbow-reach' TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.


Sorry.



BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in that upper-arm comparison....and, also, in the measurements of Patty's extreme elbow-reach.

Keep up the good work, kitz!
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Old 14th March 2010, 10:58 AM   #575
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wolftrax wrote:
Quote:
You know, I don't really have anything against Bob H being the guy in the suit. He very well could be, and 40 years later just doesn't have any memory of how it went down, ........ and it just seems with Bob H changing his story all of the time, it just becomes hard to buy.

I feel exactly the same way, wolfy....I don't have anything at all against Bob being Patty...and, strangely, at the very same time....I just can't 'buy' his story...in the least!

It's just one of those weeeeeeeeiiiiiird things....it sounds contradictory, yet it really isn't....while, at the very same time....it is!!!

Get it??!


(Oh, I also agree with ya', that Bob probably just forgot everything about the event. )
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Old 14th March 2010, 01:36 PM   #576
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Wow, so basically all of your "Analysis" was BS? I'm glad you finally came to realize this, there's hope for you yet.
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Old 14th March 2010, 05:12 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Patty's extreme 'elbow-reach' TRUMPS all of your gobbledy-gook, posted above.
Doesn't being so cowardly get tiresome? Once again, I'm asking you to discuss things that are true under the assumption that your copypasta is correct.

How do you think skeptics and proponents are interpreting your childish behaviour here and your refusal to engage in discussing the topic of the thread? Do you think anyone thinks you're being clever in any way? Do you think anyone sees you as anything other than intellectually cowardly and dishonest? If so, that would be consistent with your other irrational beliefs.


Quote:
BY DA WAY.......

I see you still can't SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in that upper-arm comparison....and, also, in the measurements of Patty's extreme elbow-reach.

Keep up the good work, kitz!
Your statement is poorly worded. Why would you write "can't"? I can do what you ask for easily, without even typing a single word. Here, let me fix that quote so as to be accurate...

I see you still won't bother to SHOW where, and to what extent, there are any errors in that upper-arm comparison....and, also, in the measurements of Patty's extreme elbow-reach until I demonstrate I am willing to engage in honest discussion like an adult.

If you want to keep demanding people jump through hoops while you do nothing, enjoy yourself. Every single reader here knows the only one here incapable is you, and that's of being mature and reasonable.
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Old 14th March 2010, 05:20 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
I feel exactly the same way, wolfy....I don't have anything at all against Bob being Patty...and, strangely, at the very same time....I just can't 'buy' his story...in the least!

It's just one of those weeeeeeeeiiiiiird things....it sounds contradictory, yet it really isn't....while, at the very same time....it is!!!

Get it??!


(Oh, I also agree with ya', that Bob probably just forgot everything about the event. )
1) Elbows aside, what do you think is the most contradictory thing regarding Bob's testimony?

2) Roger Patterson's money man and brother-in-law, Al DeAtley, told veteran Bigfoot researcher Peter Byrne after many attempts to get him to speak that the PGF was a fake and that Roger had told Al he was going to film a Bigfoot at Bluff Creek before he left Yakima.

Is that not an indicator of hoaxing? Yes or no.

Sweaty will now copypasta #1 and just completely ignore #2.

Fear is the mind killer.
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Old 15th March 2010, 10:04 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Quite true, Vort. Patty is definitely the "wide-body" model.

On a related note....here is something I threw together on my lunch break.

This graphic shows how the 'elbow-reach' measures when the subject's arm is swung both out to the side, and, in the forward direction....

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...bowReach3C.jpg
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I'm sorry, Sweaty, but you failed to answer my question. How do you know when you wrote on the Patty still that those measurments are reliable? How do you know that there is just about a whopping two feet there? How does 156 pixels definitely show 23 inches there?

And for that matter, just for clarity, how do you know that 111 pixels equals 16 incheson the picture of the woman?
The short answer, for now, is....it's based on the height that I assigned to the woman, of 72".

There are 492 pixels from her head, to her feet...which are then divided by 72, to give us the pixel/inch figure. The rest of the numbers are just a matter of some simple math.

More, later today, sometime.
Here's something for Sweaty to play with...

Sweaty, doing comparisons between Patty and ballerinas is fine and well, but I put something more appropriate together for you. How about you run your "elbow reach analyisis" on this guy here...



Bob Heironimus is just about 6'2" and you think Patty is taller than that. Let's put aside the 72"/6ft ballerina and Bob for a moment. Let's give this guy a height of over 6'2". Let's say a conservative 6'4" for what Patty would be, either real Bigfoot or guy with great big shoulder pads and a padded helmet.

How does this guy come out in your " elbow reach analysis" when compared to Patty? Remember, I know his real height and his real arm length.
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Old 15th March 2010, 11:45 PM   #580
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Yep, Sebastien Chabal is a freak of nature. Check out his arms in this photo.



After catching up on all the buzz of your upcoming documentary, "Kitakaze: Bigfoot Killer!", I recommend you start packin' around a good digital camera with video/audio capabilities, and begin collecting footage yourself. You'll need some sample footage to pitch your story anyway. This is guerrilla film making on the cheap.

Keep in mind that a documentary script is quite a different animal from a book. You'll likely need a literary agent either way, who'll actually pitch your stuff for 10%.

Now back on topic. I can't wait until you ask Bob H to discuss how he placed his glass eye in the eyehole of the mask. This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder about Bob. There's a film artifact on Patty's right eye in a blow-up of frame 352, which Bob claimed was a reflection from his glass eye. Likewise with the wallet/hernia thing. One thing for certain, is that Bob hasn't been sitting under a rock not paying attention to the PGF all these years. Some of his stories have curiously evolved with the conventions of the film.

Lastly, I was wondering if Roger actually told DeAtley the film was a hoax, or did he just assume it was? Was he in on the hoax from the inception, or was he just a silent partner and the less he knew the better? Ask me no secrets..

Good luck with your project Kit!

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Old 16th March 2010, 07:14 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Óđinn View Post
Yep, Sebastien Chabal is a freak of nature. Check out his arms in this photo.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...f1ee0efc7e.jpg
WikiMedia has a good side on shot for direct comparison to "Patty".
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:08 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Here's something for Sweaty to play with...

Sweaty, doing comparisons between Patty and ballerinas is fine and well, but I put something more appropriate together for you. How about you run your "elbow reach analyisis" on this guy here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...pictureid=2693

Bob Heironimus is just about 6'2" and you think Patty is taller than that. Let's put aside the 72"/6ft ballerina and Bob for a moment. Let's give this guy a height of over 6'2". Let's say a conservative 6'4" for what Patty would be, either real Bigfoot or guy with great big shoulder pads and a padded helmet.

How does this guy come out in your " elbow reach analysis" when compared to Patty? Remember, I know his real height and his real arm length.

Here is how the guy compares with Patty....as far as his body proportions go...





I scaled Patty so that her 'walking height' is a little shorter than his 'standing height'....then I chose a height of 72"...and measured their 'elbow reaches'.

I drew a line where his arm/elbow would be, if his arm was out at an angle comparable to Patty's...about 45-degrees. The length of his arm is 98 pixels, in both positions highlighted.


(The man's exact height doesn't matter, when comparing his body proportions to Patty's body proportions.)


Patty's elbow-reach doesn't have any correction factor applied, to adjust for it's fore-shortened length...so the difference may actually be a little greater than what the graphic shows.

The only unknown factor, in Patty's measurement, is how much the reach is distorted by the fact that Patty's arm is swung slightly forward...(making the 'reach' appear longer than it actually is.)
But the graphic with the Ballet teacher shows that that error-factor would only be a minor error, and may just about 'equal out' the fore-shortening error-factor.
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Old 16th March 2010, 10:24 PM   #583
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How about using an image of Patty seen from behind?

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Old 17th March 2010, 12:26 AM   #584
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Inhuman proportions?

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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:44 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
Patterson's book has the silvery sasquatch sighting in it, right at the end and with a sketch, I can post that later if you want.
Sure (although you might want to read further before scanning anything).

Quote:
Anybody know where this whole Pattesron and Merrit worked at Corriganville thing originated from? Was it just from Dfoot, or somewhere else? I'd really like some osrt of reliable source of confirmation of that, "Crash" being the gorilla man guy.
I think that idea mutated out of Dfoot discussing Merrit and Patterson trying to make their own Corriganville clone, which is apparently covered in Long's book.

Quote:
If you have those images, I'd like to see them, just to be sure they weren't wearing lycra or spandex body suits to absorb the sweat and prolong the life of the rubber suit. This would be a much lighter material than a sweat suit or regular clothing, and Patty's case may actually be integral to the suit.
I've been looking for a looooong time and still haven't gone through all my old posts that mention Godzilla/found the sweatsuit pic involving Haruo Nakajima emerging from an old school G suit. I did find a picture of the 90's G-actor wearing a tank top in his suit, which is odd considering how Nakajima got blisters on his skin from the original Godzilla suit.

You know, maybe I only saw the sweatsuit picture(s) here and got them mixed up with my posts. Correa, did you post anything like what I'm talking about?

If you want, you could contact August Ragone about the existence of such pictures or search Youtube for something like "nakajima godzilla behind the scenes." That would probably yield faster results than what my schedule permits.

I haven't had the time to check thoroughly, but some links found here might be of use (although I think the links are text-only), as could this site and the documentary noted here.

As for your bodysuit idea, I'm currently drawing a blank on any examples of someone wearing one under a monster suit. That certainly doesn't mean it hasn't been before, just that I can't offer any commentary other than it does seem like a pretty good idea.

I should note that the following responses are purely hypothetical and are an excuse for me to talk monster suits:

Quote:
Morris's mask may have been totally wrong for what Patterson needed, and granted leather working is what he did, but in light of several other features of the suit and circumstances I see no reason why he wouldn't just make it out of latex.
A lack of availability or Roger not wanting to spend extra cash on latex when he had lots of leather available. When you get right down to it, costume makers will use whatever they feel is right for the job. This guy used wood chips to make a Bigfoot costume instead of fake fur, bark from palm trees was used for a "Lost in Space" costume, and Paul Blaisdell appears to have had an "anything goes" approach to his wonderful monster suits. I think pages 45-48 (and beyond) of Randy Palmer's Paul Blaisdell, Monster Maker provide some great examples of that.

Quote:
Could very well be, though a foam latex mask wouldn't be necessary and a bit of overkill in terms of cost and difficulty compared to the result of no facial movement required.
That would be true, unless the mask was reused from another project (film, stage, made just for fun, etc).

Quote:
The body suit though, Bob H just tried it on one time before the filming, it was adjusted for him, and if this came from Morris then it was unused. That reduces the chance of stink factor from previous use.
True (unless he sweat heavily during his first donning of the suit). If we eliminate Morris as the suit provider, then the possibility of the suit (or various suit parts cannibalized to make Patty) having been worn previously increases.

Quote:
But all of these are valid reasons you point out for it stinks and I don't really have an objection to them. What really bugs me though, about the whole stink thing, is Bob H initially said the suit stank because Roger skinned a dead red horse, and then now with Morris's suiting him up and the recreation he changes the suit to be made of dynel, and only the mask stank.
Thank you. I share your concern over Bob's changing stories. I seem to recall someone here being led into thinking that Dynel stank as a result of that. As far as I know, Dynel doesn't smell. I also remember the same person wondering if Dynel has a realistic sheen, which it does.

Quote:
You know, I don't really have anything against Bob H being the guy in the suit. He very well could be, and 40 years later just doesn't have any memory of how it went down, and the people promoting him just filled in the blanks. We tend to go over Gimlin and Patterson's stories with fine toothed combs though, and I think rightfully so, and it just seems with Bob H changing his story all of the time, it just becomes hard to buy. But, he could very well be the guy....
Even though I don't endorse him as the guy in the suit (due to his changing stories), there was a time when the sorts of things brought up by kitakaze had me convinced that there was something deeper going on. But now I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bob H. figured out that Gimlin would not take legal action (possibly based on his not going after Roger or DeAtely until Dahinden lit a fire under his behind) and that Patricia Patterson couldn't possibly win a legal battle about whether or not the film was real. A lot of the defense given for him as of late sounds exactly like stuff Patterson/Gimlin apologists spout. However, Bob providing some better quality evidence to prove his claims would make me change my mind.

Quote:
Great to hear your thoughts on this, Atomic, the whole costume aspect is my favorite part of discussing this film.

Hey, could you give a little more background on what you do for that horror website, I read the link about knock off masks, do you guys go into costumes and how they were made?
Thanks! To clarify, that humor piece involving the foam latex mask was for a good friend's site, URBMN, and not for Gravedigger's Local 16. However, that friend does contribute to GdL16 and certain aspects of the other members' posting styles are influenced by his work at URBMN.

As for GdL16, I do one "AMM post" a month and have the unofficial position of being in charge of posts regarding Godzilla's birthday. I have known to log into the site's Twitter feed and participate in making posts by the "Front Office" as well. I originally only did promotion for the site, but was invited on to do (among other topics) an article on copyrights and the public domain, which is now indefinitely on hold.

The only articles that I'm aware of that come close to what you describe were an entry providing resources on mask-making and a discussion of a proposed Pinhead redesign with a sfx artist. I am planning on repurposing much of my suit notes here for future entries, though.
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Old 17th March 2010, 12:48 AM   #586
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News update.

I'll be speaking with Greg Long tomorrow by phone. If anyone has suggestions for questions for Long, feel free to post them.

One thing I was surprised to discover is that Greg Long had a falling out with Kal Korff, who wrote the foreward to The Making of Bigfoot, got the book published, pitched the book to the publisher, wrote small portions of the book and assisted in editing the book.

Greg Long had his laywer send Korff a letter threatening to sue for libel and slander if Korff were to claim responsibility for anything to do with the book. Surprisingly, Greg also told Bob Heironimus that he would not be needed after the book was published. Finally, I had no idea Greg Long was such a devout Christian, but after reading his book, I am not surprised. I don't mean to imply that Greg's religion is any sort of character flaw, but it does help to understand some of his thoughts regarding Roger Patterson.

Check this out...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:04 AM   #587
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Misc notes:

I'd love to get some hard confirmation on the airport issue, which could potentially kill the excuse by some proponents that the film was merely lumped in with another flight.

In regard to the brief comments about Zana, meet Julia Pastrana.

Here's an oldie but goodie:

"Oh, and pages 89-96 and 113-115 of this preview for Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod have some really interesting details about the PGf. Page 113 is especially interesting to me because it notes that DeAtely gave Gimlin $700 at the time he was booted off the film's earning stream."

Perhaps Gimlin thought (or Patterson and DeAtely thought he thought) he couldn't sue since he had already accepted payment/agreed to get bought out. Or then again, Patterson could have suffered from some condition that compelled him to screw over people (as many in Yakima had experienced).

Finally here's a suit note "trilogy" of sorts.
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Old 17th March 2010, 01:04 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Even though I don't endorse him as the guy in the suit (due to his changing stories), there was a time when the sorts of things brought up by kitakaze had me convinced that there was something deeper going on. But now I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bob H. figured out that Gimlin would not take legal action (possibly based on his not going after Roger or DeAtely until Dahinden lit a fire under his behind) and that Patricia Patterson couldn't possibly win a legal battle about whether or not the film was real. A lot of the defense given for him as of late sounds exactly like stuff Patterson/Gimlin apologists spout. However, Bob providing some better quality evidence to prove his claims would make me change my mind.
I agree that Bob's testimony has problems. The wallet thing is weird, as well as the glass eye. I'll be talking with Bob about it after he comes home on Thursday. I said earlier...

Personally, I think Bob came to Bluff Creek either October 16th or 18th, possibly. I base this on that fact that he said to Greg Long that Roger and Bob came to his house in Gimlin's one ton truck to get Chico on a Friday or Saturday (Oct 13th or 14th) and that he was told to come later and left on maybe a Monday or Wednesday. If Chico was gone eight days and Roger and Bob left Bluff Creek the morning of Saturday, October 21st, the timing is perfect.

Atomic, let's assume BH is lying. Why did Bob try to protect Patterson and deny any involvement in both the South Fork documentary and being in the suit when Greg Long first comes to him? Why does he pass not one, but two polygraphs later when he comes out? Why does he screw his friend who lives on the same street as him? Why does he maintain a relationship with Gimlin if he did? Why doesn't Gimlin sue Heironimus? Why doesn't Patty? She's gotten money hand over fist for the film.

Also, I really need to ask Bob about this grey horsehide suit thing.
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Old 17th March 2010, 05:09 AM   #589
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Thanks for not finding any significant error in my man/Patty 'elbow-reach' comparison, kitakaze........as always, you never can.
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The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
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Old 17th March 2010, 05:13 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
Thanks for not finding any significant error in my man/Patty 'elbow-reach' comparison, kitakaze........as always, you never can.
SweatyYeti, why do you say that? I never agreed to do any such thing. I agreed to show the specific errors in your comparisons once you agreed to engage in normal human discussion on equal terms where the questions of both parties are addressed with equal honesty and sincerity.

Will you do that? Yes or no.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 17th March 2010, 09:02 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
SweatyYeti, why do you say that?
Because it's true.


Quote:
I agreed to show the specific errors in your comparisons once you agreed to engage in normal human discussion on equal terms where the questions of both parties are addressed with equal honesty and sincerity.

Will you do that? Yes or no.


'Normal' human discussion doesn't consist of twisting/distorting/misrepresenting a large percentage of what the other person says......as you consistently do, in your responses to my statements and graphics.

That being the case....you can take your offer of "Normal human conversation", and........Swing it!!...
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The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
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Old 17th March 2010, 10:52 AM   #592
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Sweaty, I've already shown several reasons that your elbow-reach analysis is deeply flawed. You ignore these, pretending that I never posted them or that I don't exist, in favor of playing word-games with Kitakaze, demonstrating yet again that you have no interest in rational debate.
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Old 17th March 2010, 10:58 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Sweaty, I've already shown several reasons that your elbow-reach analysis is deeply flawed. You ignore these, pretending that I never posted them or that I don't exist, in favor of playing word-games with Kitakaze, demonstrating yet again that you have no interest in rational debate.

Feel free to demonstrate....(show)...specifically where, and to what extent, there are any significicant errors in my measurements, and comparisons, Vort.
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The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

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Old 17th March 2010, 11:05 AM   #594
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I've already done so in the pages of this thread. I will not waste my time re-posting them to suit your juvenile game.
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Old 17th March 2010, 11:42 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
'Normal' human discussion doesn't consist of twisting/distorting/misrepresenting a large percentage of what the other person says......as you consistently do, in your responses to my statements and graphics.
Sweaty, you constantly distort what skeptics say. You can't engage in discussion with one without distorting what they say and making strawmen. Saying that skeptics treat anyone who even considers the chance of Bigfoot existing is a prime example.

You simply fear to discuss issues about the PGF that are strong indicicators of a hoax. That is the sign of a fanatic and someone with an inability to be intellectually honest. What's that? Roger pulled a Babe Ruth and told his financier that he's going to Bluff Creek to film a Bigfoot and make them rich?

Sorry, Sweaty can't respond because he's huddling in a corner.

Quote:
That being the case....you can take your offer of "Normal human conversation", and........Swing it!!...
That being the case...

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
Unlike skeptics here, who time and time again refuse to answer questions (examples later), I'll never refuse to answer any questions....which are relevant to the subject of Bigfoot, that is.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 17th March 2010, 08:50 PM   #596
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
What's that? Roger pulled a Babe Ruth and told his financier that he's going to Bluff Creek to film a Bigfoot and make them rich?
This is a perfect example of the "Critical Thinker's" 'have it both ways' logical reasoning......A.K.A......"Everything points towards a hoax!!!"


It works like this.......


Scenario #1:

Man wanders/mozies/staggers through the wilderness....doesn't come across a Bigfoot.....and "Critical Thinker" concludes...."HA!! I knew it....Bigfoot is a Myth!!!"


Scenario #2:

People find Bigfoot tracks in a wilderness area...Man goes and wanders/rides horsey/staggers around the wilderness area...(which has potential Bigfoot tracks in it)....and, after a week or two, comes out of wilderness with Film of said Beast....and the "Critical Thinker" concludes....."HA!! I knew it....Bigfoot is a HOAX...it's a Myth!!!"



"From the Superior mind comes Superior Logic"



Btw...what would Roger have been expected to say to his financier....."Please loan us a big chunk of money, sir....I seriously doubt we'll actually cross paths with this thing....it being a myth, and all....but, hey, you just never know!! What do you say??!"
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The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

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Old 17th March 2010, 08:56 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Sweaty, you constantly distort what skeptics say. You can't engage in discussion with one without distorting what they say and making strawmen. Saying that skeptics treat anyone who even considers the chance of Bigfoot existing is a prime example.

You simply fear to discuss issues about the PGF that are strong indicicators of a hoax. That is the sign of a fanatic and someone with an inability to be intellectually honest. What's that? Roger pulled a Babe Ruth and told his financier that he's going to Bluff Creek to film a Bigfoot and make them rich?

Sorry, Sweaty can't respond because he's huddling in a corner.

kitakaze's latest Blab-alicious post.


In actual fact, kitakaze, I'm huddling behind....in front of...and right beside...my Patty 'elbow-reach' measurements, and the Patty/Bob comparisons.........the ones you can't refute.
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The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
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Old 17th March 2010, 09:04 PM   #598
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Atomic, excellent posts! Outstanding sources. I've got to run but had to read what what was written, and of course I'm going to be spending a lot more time later reading these excellent links. Thanks!
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Old 17th March 2010, 09:05 PM   #599
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti



"Unlike skeptics here, who time and time again refuse to answer questions (examples later), I'll never refuse to answer any questions....which are relevant to the subject of Bigfoot, that is"
I still stand by that statement of mine....(which I made before I decided that kitakaze was a complete and total waste of my time to try to have a normal discussion with.)


The point of the statement is simply that there is NO (Bigfoot-related) question that a skeptic can ask me, that I am afraid to answer.


I'll answer any question...as long as it's asked by someone other than kitakaze, and it's asked over on Melissa's Board.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
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Old 17th March 2010, 09:13 PM   #600
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AtomicMysteryMonster wrote:
Quote:
However, Bob providing some better quality evidence to prove his claims would make me change my mind.

Actually, he could start by providing some evidence, and then work up to "better quality", from there!
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
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