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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Bob Heironimus , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:46 PM   #1001
kitakaze
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A little something for JcR...

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I AGREE


Apparently Ed thinks he's going to get Raph on Bigfoot and Dogman.
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:54 PM   #1002
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I'm reposting news I shared at the BFF last night...

[i]I just finished having a roughly three hour conversation with Philip Morris. It was extremely interesting and for me, full of bombshells. Philip is just the most fantastic guy, and I've lost all doubt that he sold a suit to Patterson in 1967.
I think you are correct. But I wonder whether it was the suit we see in the PG movie. I hope he has some opinions on how his suit could have been modified.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 05:07 PM   #1003
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Just a reminder that Bill Munns said he'd like to make a replica of Patty if the money was there...



Originally Posted by question on BFF
Considering your background and Hollywood/Museum piece credentials I have a question. Forgive me if it has already been asked by someone in the past; if you had unlimited resources and time could you produce a believable suit or animatronic creature today?

Originally Posted by Bill Munns on BFF
So to answer you question anew, If an effort today was well funded and time was generous, something very close could be made, not as an animatronic (they still can't walk freely in open landscapes) but as a costume. The knee thing (short lower leg) could only be replicated by a suit person of similar anatomy (that can't be cheated with a longer leg made to look short) and the head shape is problematic because of the flat top shape relative to the apparent eye position on the fact.

It would be fascinating to try though, if funding were available. I would actually love to see how close I could get to the film, and think it would be a fascinating thing to try.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 05:51 PM   #1004
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I think the whole 'arms are too long, legs are too short' hubbub is nothing but an optical delusion.

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Old 22nd April 2010, 09:25 PM   #1005
AtomicMysteryMonster
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
We know that Morris was the top supplier of gorilla costumes at the time (which were mostly brown)
Do we? Funny how the "top supplier" tried passing off a picture of a Don Post gorilla suit as a picture of one of his suits. I'd love to see how he'd react to you springing that (and or a surprise Verne Langdon appearance) on him. Come to think of it, didn't Morris once say his company was the only one making gorilla suits back then? I smell a liar...

Quote:
Patterson said to Morris, "No, I'm a rodeo cowboy. We're just going to have some fun." This is a major indication that Morris was not lying about speaking with Roger Patterson on the phone. Patterson being a rodeo rider was something that was very rarely published in any newspapers or magazines.
Run "roger patterson rodeo" through Google Books and you'll find out otherwise. Some examples:

The Ten Creepiest Creatures in America by Allan Zullo -1997
America's Most Haunted: True Scary Creatures by Allan Zullo - 1997
Saturday night, Volume 93 - 1978
Superstition and the press by Curtis Daniel MacDougall - 1983
Newsweek, Volume 128, Issue 25 - 1972
Great mysteries of the 20th century by Reader's Digest Association - 1996
The search for Big Foot: monster, myth or man? by Peter Byrne - 1975
Bigfoot All Over the Country by Marian Templeton Place - 1978
Sasquatch/Wild Man Of The Wood by Elaine Landau - 1993
Bigfoot: opposing viewpoints by Norma Gaffron - 1988
Encyclopedia of strange and unexplained physical phenomena by Jerome Clark - 1993
Big foot, Lochness and other mysterious monsters: a zoological look - 1978

Quote:
1) A human-shaped foot is easier to do. A foot made with a gripping toe sticking away from the other toes made it impossible to pull a sculpture out of a mold without breaking the mold.
wolftrax already covered this, but that's a total crock. Doing a human-shaped foot is "easier" in terms of how it lets you recycle the molds for human costume feet.

Quote:
2) The Girl to Gorilla illusion was done on a stage where the performer's feet would be obscured from the audience sitting at a lower height.
Maybe at some venues, but not all. Morris' own haunted house book gives instructions on doing the illusion on a surface level with the audience.

Quote:
Morris is a multi-millionaire with no need to waste time concocting lies to try and get some little publicity from Bigfoot kookery.
LOL! Then why did he admit to lying about making elephant costumes for easy publicity? Why is he lying about gorilla feet and molding? Morris got a crapload of free media attention for this little stunt...why else would we (and so many others) refer to it when talking about the PGF?

Alt. response: Why would a police officer risk faking a frozen bigfoot body and allowing it to be examined when it meant losing his career and reputation over an easily-exposed hoax?

Quote:
Much more importantly is that fact that people have testified to Morris speaking about his business with Patterson for many, many years.
Even if this is true, it doesn't rule out him lying. I remember hearing about some nutcase who convinced her family and friends that she was pregnant as a cover for her eventual stealing of another woman's baby and passing it off as her own. I think Morris was doing the same on a larger time scale.

Quote:
The way he describes his first talk on the phome with Patterson, the things patterson told him, the way Patterson behaved, all of them are uniquely Patterson.
Or Morris described a type con he was familiar with that happens to match up with the behavior of our favorite con man, and added details he had gathered on Patterson (either through his own research or from someone he hired to look into the matter).

Quote:
Morris said he saw the feet and right away knew they were his, except that the color looked different.
Whaa? I could've sworn that Kal Korff touted the feet not matching as proof of a hoax...

Quote:
Morris doesn't go up and down the film tring to claim everything as his or his idea. Greg Long asks him about Patty's boobs and he says he has no idea what he's talking about, and that none of his gorilla suits had breasts. He straight-up says to Long that he doesn't recognize the head and face and that they aren't his.
Like many who don't pay close attention to the film, Morris missed the tummy rocks. As for the head/face, he'd look like an idiot to say it was his when it looks nothing like his gorilla masks.

Quote:
Now think about Morris' behaviour in telling about his making a sale to Patterson. He didn't whip out the claim in the 60's when the film came out and he was making suits with his wife in the basement of their house on Kistler Ave. in Charlotte. Boy, he could have used the publicity then!
Can you say "threat of potential legal action?"

Quote:
I need to see some "As seen in the Patterson Film!" type BS.
You mean like his claim of having the original Patty suit in a museum?
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Last edited by AtomicMysteryMonster; 22nd April 2010 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Switched things
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Old 22nd April 2010, 09:45 PM   #1006
AtomicMysteryMonster
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
He denied things that he should not at all have denied if he realized he was talking to an investigator who had done his homework.
The hell? We've been over this already! Rural area filled with people that could contradict the story or even "push" Long in the "right" direction. Easy peasy.

Quote:
Bob denied to Long any involvement in the documentary and oops, Greg had his picture of him right there in it. Greg then visits Bob's house in Yakima on December 19, 1998 after being turned away by Judy Gimlin up the street. Bob accused to Greg, "So you're gonna get rich of this?" Long responded, "I'm not looking to get rich off it. I'm looking to tell the story about Roger Patterson and this movie." Bob tells Greg he'll need to talk with his attorney and maybe he'll get back to him.
Sounds like Bob was afraid someone else would beat him to his planned payday. This could provide an alternate explanation to the above...that Bob was trying to lead his "competition" away.

Quote:
On the 29th Greg calls Woodard who tells him that Bob is a "real salt of the earth guy."
*facepalm*

Quote:
So Bob and Glen Cassidy had referred to this as proof six months before
Technically, they only made a nonspecific claim about proof. This could be applied to any story they (or someone else) could come up with.

Quote:
Greg was not in front of the men with a blowup of Patty's head at that time with the right eye visible and the left a black hole.
Dude, they lived in Patterson central. It's not unreasonable to think they saw the still and came up with the eye story based on that (and Bob H's fake eye).

Quote:
Who makes that stuff up?
No, NO! You've read plenty of crypto discussions to know that's a crappy argument. Bad kit! No biscuit!
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Old 22nd April 2010, 10:06 PM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Bill Munns on BFF
So to answer you question anew, If an effort today was well funded and time was generous, something very close could be made,
Quote:
The knee thing (short lower leg) could only be replicated by a suit person of similar anatomy (that can't be cheated with a longer leg made to look short)
Tell that to the guy in the Ultra monster costume that Correa posted ages ago...

Quote:
and the head shape is problematic because of the flat top shape relative to the apparent eye position on the fact.
Ah yes, the "it would be difficult to see out of, so it's unlikely to be a mask" argument. Too bad for Bill that the Autopsy Ghoul and Venom (among others) disprove this.

Unlike certain cow...um..."people" I know, I'm willing to discuss this in further detail in a publicly available internet forum.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 10:35 PM   #1008
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Two more things...

Page 128 (and beyond) of this preview of Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod has interesting notes on Roger's condition, analysis of the PGF, the Gimlin/Dahinden lawsuit, and more.

This preview of Bigfoot Film Journal by Christopher L. Murphy covering pages 48+ discusses Patterson and Gimlin's living situations, who bought the copyright to Patterson's book (and drawings therein? This could help kit), legal issues, the fake Bob, along with other bits of information and hilarious "Bigfoot band-aids."
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:36 PM   #1009
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Atomic, thanks for the help and the whoopin'. I'll return your volley very soon. My conversation with Phil is the longest one I've had yet, and I have a mountain of notes from it to turn into something coherent. I'll tell you right now, I have no problem with the single piece foot mold. Phil said that part of the process for molds involved having pieces that would fit together with a ball and concave hole to insert the ball in, which was beyond his capabilities in the 60's. He also mentioned that the soles of the feet were made separately at the same place the chests were. There's much more he explained technically that I will post soon.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:49 PM   #1010
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Do we? Funny how the "top supplier" tried passing off a picture of a Don Post gorilla suit as a picture of one of his suits. I'd love to see how he'd react to you springing that (and or a surprise Verne Langdon appearance) on him. Come to think of it, didn't Morris once say his company was the only one making gorilla suits back then? I smell a liar...
Wow, I didn't know this, any idea where this happened?

Quote:
Run "roger patterson rodeo" through Google Books and you'll find out otherwise. Some examples:

The Ten Creepiest Creatures in America by Allan Zullo -1997
America's Most Haunted: True Scary Creatures by Allan Zullo - 1997
Saturday night, Volume 93 - 1978
Superstition and the press by Curtis Daniel MacDougall - 1983
Newsweek, Volume 128, Issue 25 - 1972
Great mysteries of the 20th century by Reader's Digest Association - 1996
The search for Big Foot: monster, myth or man? by Peter Byrne - 1975
Bigfoot All Over the Country by Marian Templeton Place - 1978
Sasquatch/Wild Man Of The Wood by Elaine Landau - 1993
Bigfoot: opposing viewpoints by Norma Gaffron - 1988
Encyclopedia of strange and unexplained physical phenomena by Jerome Clark - 1993
Big foot, Lochness and other mysterious monsters: a zoological look - 1978
Great point, just about anything describing Patterson in a created conversation could be from these books.

Quote:
LOL! Then why did he admit to lying about making elephant costumes for easy publicity? Why is he lying about gorilla feet and molding? Morris got a crapload of free media attention for this little stunt...why else would we (and so many others) refer to it when talking about the PGF?

Alt. response: Why would a police officer risk faking a frozen bigfoot body and allowing it to be examined when it meant losing his career and reputation over an easily-exposed hoax?

Even if this is true, it doesn't rule out him lying. I remember hearing about some nutcase who convinced her family and friends that she was pregnant as a cover for her eventual stealing of another woman's baby and passing it off as her own. I think Morris was doing the same on a larger time scale.
The elephant thing, where is that? These things that AMM is bringing up, these are showing relevant behavior patterns for Morris and show a motive.

On why Morris would bother with publicizing off of Bigfoot kookery, another example is Chambers allowing the rumor of him being behind the suit to continue, because it was good for business.

Quote:
Whaa? I could've sworn that Kal Korff touted the feet not matching as proof of a hoax...
You know, looking at Morris standing next to the ape suit he claims was the one used, from what I can see the feet don't look the same.

Quote:
You mean like his claim of having the original Patty suit in a museum?
Ok, this claim definitely needs to be found, if true (and I believe you, just want to really see it) it's totally damaging to Morris's story. You might as well just throw out all thoughts on me ever believing Morris.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:57 PM   #1011
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Atomic, thanks for the help and the whoopin'. I'll return your volley very soon. My conversation with Phil is the longest one I've had yet, and I have a mountain of notes from it to turn into something coherent. I'll tell you right now, I have no problem with the single piece foot mold. Phil said that part of the process for molds involved having pieces that would fit together with a ball and concave hole to insert the ball in, which was beyond his capabilities in the 60's.
LMAO! He's totally full of it, Kit! He's lying to you. Beyond his capability? LMAO Dude, if you only realized how stupid his lies are in this regard. If he was sculpting AT ALL, this is a no brainer.

You should have a problem with the single piece mold, Kit, it's not going to work.

Quote:
He also mentioned that the soles of the feet were made separately at the same place the chests were.
LMAO! So he is claiming he made the top of the feet separately, and used some soles of the feet from somewhere else? And what, glued them together? And he needed to send out the chest to have someone else do it, what did he claim this was a two piece mold for the chest as well? LMAO! What about the hands?

Quote:
There's much more he explained technically that I will post soon.
Please do, this is really good, or bad, depending on how you look at it. I can tell you, so far, this guy is totally lying to you. I can explain how it's done, no problem, but post this stuff he told you first.

ETA: I just thought of this, Kit, ask him the about the place he had do the soles separately, what it was called and where it was located, time to do some fact checking.

Last edited by wolftrax; 23rd April 2010 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 04:54 AM   #1012
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I looking forward to seeing any technical details to see if we can figure just what's being described regarding the casting & moulding. I can sort of kick around in my head some scenarios that sort of work with a one-piece mould. But they don't make a lot of sense!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 10:26 AM   #1013
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Kit, from a posting on the internet by a supposed niece of Bob H, it appears that Bob may have a sister who can provide some information. You might ask Bob if you can speak with her.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 11:31 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
A little something for JcR...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Apparently Ed thinks he's going to get Raph on Bigfoot and Dogman.
Good eye Kit: .. Now it just needs a good story line.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 01:17 PM   #1015
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Kit, from a posting on the internet by a supposed niece of Bob H, it appears that Bob may have a sister who can provide some information. You might ask Bob if you can speak with her.
Can you be more specific? A link would help. I am calling Bob today to discuss a few things, including the grey horsehide suit rumour from John Ballard, a friend of Patterson's and the guy who supplied horses for Roger's South Fork documentary.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 23rd April 2010, 01:21 PM   #1016
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For wolftrax and Atomic,

Normally I would do this myself, but I am somewhat pressed for time. Can you provide me with a numbered list of questions for Phil that you think will show that he is lying to me? Don't post it here, as he may be reading, but send them to me by PM.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 23rd April 2010, 05:00 PM   #1017
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Hey, K!

I am interested on what Morris has to say about the Patty mask. Could he describe it, how it was built and eventual changes made by Patterson? It was not, after all, a standard gorilla face. Would he be able to provide a good picture or sketch of it?

Similar question about the hands and forearms. How long they were, what sort of changes Patterson did and how, were its fingers articulated or not (and if yes, how was this achieved)?

And no, I am not sure if Morris was the one who built the costume we see at PGF. He's a suspect, of course.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 08:57 PM   #1018
AtomicMysteryMonster
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Originally Posted by wolftrax
Wow, I didn't know this, any idea where this happened?
The Don Post incident or the "only supplier" comment? Mr. Langdon talked about the Don Post thing on a bigfoot podcast (bipto's?) and can name what magazine/issue contains a reprint of a Don Post ad made using an apologetic letter Morris wrote when confronted by Langdon. The "only supplier" bit appeared in numerous articles on the film and Morris' "confession" (and maybe in Long's book).

Quote:
The elephant thing, where is that?
In Morris' book How to Operate a Financially Successful Haunted House. You can see the page # and exact quote if you use the forum's search function.

Quote:
another example is Chambers allowing the rumor of him being behind the suit to continue, because it was good for business.
Actually, Chambers denied that he was involved in the PGF (and said he could have done better) while videotaped at a private party in Hollywood. Here's the source.

Quote:
Ok, this claim definitely needs to be found, if true
You can find it right here on the official Morris Costumes website. This was brought to the forum's attention by GT/CS in this thread. Look for "See the original "Bigfoot costume" on display in Dr.Evil's Haunted Museum which is located at Morris Costumes 4300 Monroe Road."
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Last edited by AtomicMysteryMonster; 23rd April 2010 at 09:23 PM. Reason: podcast
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Old 23rd April 2010, 09:10 PM   #1019
AtomicMysteryMonster
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
I'll tell you right now, I have no problem with the single piece foot mold. Phil said that part of the process for molds involved having pieces that would fit together with a ball and concave hole to insert the ball in, which was beyond his capabilities in the 60's. He also mentioned that the soles of the feet were made separately at the same place the chests were. There's much more he explained technically that I will post soon.
It's not the number of mold pieces that bothers me so much, it's the bs about the gorilla toes being impossible/torn off. Costume feet like that existing (I think Dfoot once posted a picture of one) and wolftrax's comment about costume thumbs prove him wrong. I look forward to hearing his explanations and more on the foot/chest thing.

Don't take any of his jargon at face value. Run it by Verne Langdon, special effects/costume companies, and Halloween and/or costume-themed websites and forums.

Oh, and it's great to see that JohnWS is back!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 09:58 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Actually, Chambers denied that he was involved in the PGF (and said he could have done better) while videotaped at a private party in Hollywood. Here's the source.
For the life of me I can't find it, but Bobbie Short also did an extensive interview with Chambers, and he told her he knew the rumor was going around for years and did not deny it because it was good for business. At the time she interviewed him, he was in a retirement home and admitted he had not been behind the hoax. I believe this was the first documentation of Chamber's denial.

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Old 23rd April 2010, 10:41 PM   #1021
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Originally Posted by wolftrax
For the life of me I can't find it, but Bobbie Short also did an extensive interview with Chambers, and he told her he knew the rumor was going around for years and did not deny it because it was good for business. At the time she interviewed him, he was in a retirement home and admitted he had not been behind the hoax. I believe this was the first documentation of Chamber's denial.
I've read about that before, so you don't need a source for this. The thing is, this tape/party predates Short's interview!
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Old 23rd April 2010, 11:12 PM   #1022
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Thanks AMM - I've had a few months off this sort of stuff but definitely picked an interesting week to return. What with Kit' posting his findings on BFF and such.
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Old 24th April 2010, 12:24 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
You can find it right here on the official Morris Costumes website. This was brought to the forum's attention by GT/CS in this thread. Look for "See the original "Bigfoot costume" on display in Dr.Evil's Haunted Museum which is located at Morris Costumes 4300 Monroe Road."
Well, you know he will have one of his original ape suits from the 60s in there, the old bait and switch, but this page is also very good for showing how he is totally capitalizing on this whole "Bigfoot kookery" thing.

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Old 24th April 2010, 11:46 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by JohnWS View Post
I looking forward to seeing any technical details to see if we can figure just what's being described regarding the casting & moulding. I can sort of kick around in my head some scenarios that sort of work with a one-piece mould. But they don't make a lot of sense!
Hey JohnWS, always good to talk to you about the costume stuff. JohnWS knows his stuff, he's very talented.

You have a PM!
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Old 25th April 2010, 12:14 AM   #1025
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I want to apologize for being so tied up with the BFF Heironimus thread. Posting my info there has afforded me unique opportunities that I might not have here at a skeptics forum. For one thing, I can talk to Bill in public. While my criticisms of Bill remain the same, we're on much friendlier terms then we were a year ago. I am making an exchange with Bill for his scans from Roger's South Fork film. In return I will burn him a copy of the DVD Philip is sending me with the outtakes from NatGeo's Is It Real? Bigfoot special and Bob on the show Lie Detector. My hope is that the scans will have visual clues connecting to things I have researched about Patterson.

Some people may ask, "Why help Bill?" and think it's not a good idea for me to give him any material, but Bill is now looking outside just the film and into things like Bob's claim of being Patty. I don't in any way consider Bill a rival. Just another PGF researcher with the opposite thinking of me about the film's veracity. I am also going to ask Phil to send Bill a copy of Long's book for him to read.

I will be talking with Bob tomorrow on the phone. He called me tonight while I was working and left a message. I encourage anyone who is interested to follow the BH thread at the BFF...

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=29264
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I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 25th April 2010, 02:01 AM   #1026
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Quote:
I am making an exchange with Bill for his scans from Roger's South Fork film.
The South Fork film? Is that the documentary footage? How about the actual creature footage?
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:34 AM   #1027
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Don't forget to ask Bob about his sister and what she might be able to contribute.
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Old 25th April 2010, 11:20 AM   #1028
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Prominent bigfoot blogger calls BS, bails

While only indirectly related to this topic, this deserves notice.

The big news in 'footerville is the "desertion" of a well-known 'footer.
DB Donlon, who had the well-known blog "Blogsquatcher," has folded his tent and left a statement behind (cached). Loren Coleman and others in the 'village' try to make it seem like the guy was just, you know, ready to move on. But they don't post this part of his statement: :
Quote:
I leave you with this last thought -- if, as it seems to me, there is something deliberately deceptive about the bigfoot phenomenon, there always remains the possibility that your best interests are not taken into account when you participate in it.

If I look at a squirrel outside my window right now, I am sure that what I'm observing is a squirrel. I am confident that I am not deceived. But if I look at a bigfoot, or any other mystery humanoid, I do not know what I am looking at. Indeed, I am sure that I am being deceived in some way. It is my intention not to participate in that deception any further, for I recognize that by blogging about it, I am fostering that deception, even if it isn't my wish.

I do not desire to be used by something when I am completely ignorant of the motives, or even the essence of what I'm being used by.

I do not know that investigating bigfoot or other mystery creatures is a harmful exercise, it's just that I don't want to wander around blindly, not knowing who or what I am bumping into, or stepping on (or what I am stepping in!) in a karmic sense.

I bid you all a fond farewell. I have enjoyed interacting with you. Good luck to you in all of your endeavors, and may God bless you and yours in fullness.

All the best,
db donlon
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Old 25th April 2010, 12:00 PM   #1029
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some person claiming to be Bob H.'s niece from Denver posted a note saying that her mother knew Bob was telling the truth.
Quote:
Bob is my uncle. According to my mother, the stories are true.
Posted by Eva in Denver, CO on Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 07:59 PM
Of course, "Bob's your uncle" is a cliche, so...
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Old 25th April 2010, 03:58 PM   #1030
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I see the BFF closed their thread, for no apparent reason. Seems like kit was making too many friends.

or else they were afraid somebody was gonna get after the whole "unknown primate DNA" claim. Because, of course, there is no such thing.
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Old 25th April 2010, 04:10 PM   #1031
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Apparently, not permanently .. At least that is not the stated intention ..
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Maybe later....
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Old 25th April 2010, 06:20 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
I see the BFF closed their thread, for no apparent reason.
I also found that puzzling. The "likelihood of derail" justification seemed a bit contrived.

Oh well, I'll be patient and look forward to further updates from you Kit, either here or there.
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Old 25th April 2010, 07:00 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I also found that puzzling. The "likelihood of derail" justification seemed a bit contrived.

Oh well, I'll be patient and look forward to further updates from you Kit, either here or there.
That seemed utterly random to me. Everyone was getting along swimmingly. Oh well. Their board, their call. I can't wait right now.

I have spoken again with Bob Heironimus. Something has come up in my investigation that I never expected. It's something BH didn't recognize as important. It might be a wild goose chase, or it might be the most important thing to the PGF controversy ever found. I can not say more right now until I've figured someway to handle this information correctly. I will need help privately from both the JREF and the BFF.

I may have found unequivocable physical proof the PGF was a hoax.

My PM box is 96% full, and I can't handle a massive whollop of PM's right now. I have some phone calls to make, and some digging to do, and when I have a better idea how to proceed, I'll post more.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:02 PM   #1034
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News update.

In the meantime, here are some other detaills from my discussion with Bob Heironimus today. We spoke not so long, maybe 45 minutes or so. I was calling to touch base after we hadn't spoken for a while. I told about all the developments since we last spoke, and to ask him some important questions that were on my mind. Bob is doing well, though he pulled a hamstring bowling.

- One of the first things I wanted to know was about when Bob first met Al DeAtley. In 2001 Al told Greg Long that he had knew Bob and had met him through Roger. I wanted to know if this was before the film was made or after. I was trying to establish the depth of BH's involvement with Patterson and anything they might have been up to in '66 when Roger's book first came out, and leading up to the film. I asked when was the first time Bob had met Al DeAtley.

Bob told me it was at the Saddle Tree restaurant and nightclub when he approached Al about receiving the $1000 that Roger had promised him after the film was made. Bob said he had a friend beside him whose name was Gary. He could not recall the last name. As I reported earlier, Bob said this happened about half a year to a year after the PGF, but Glenda Heironimus clarified that it was in 1970.

- I wanted to discuss with Bob the rumour originating with John Ballard, the man who supplied some of the horses for Roger's South Fork documentary depicting intrepid Bigfoot hunters tracking the beast, that Bob had been using a grey horsehide suit around Yakima for hoaxing. First I asked Bob if he had ever prior to the time he first tried on the PGF suit at Roger's house worn a Bigfoot or ape suit. Bob said that the PGF suit was the first time. I wanted to be specific so I informed Bob of the claim made by John Ballard that some local teenagers had been scared by silver-grey creature and then a grey horsehide suit had been found in Bob's trunk. I read him part of the passage from Long's book and asked him if that made any sense.

Bob said that he knew John Ballard and that John had been confused. The suit found in his trunk was the PGF suit. That suit was found by his mother on the morning of Saturday, October 21st around 10:00 am. Bob's mother, aunt and cousin John Miller had all seen the suit. It was removed that night from the trunk when Patterson and Gimlin came to drop off Chico (they took only Chico and Peanuts to Bluff Creek) and get the suit. Opal saw Gimlin's green one ton truck with the Chico and the other horse in it, but Bob said he thought he was out at the time.

Bob told me that he had heard from a friend who knew Roger that had been paying some guys to where a suit and scare people out by the coast, possibly in the Auburn area. I pressed Bob for the name of this friend and he told me his name was Roy Sappenfield. Roy has since passed on, but Bob gave me the name of Roy's brother to follow up on.

- I related to Bob the anecdote Philip had told me about when he and other people involved in the NatGeo special gathered at Bob's house on S. 90th Ave. Philip had said that he and a Polish guy with excellent English (he said better than his) had been discussing walking up the street to have a peek at Bob Gimlin's house and confirm it was just down the street. Philip said the man went to Gimlin's house, checked out the mailbox, and then was brave/stupid enough to try and knock on the door. Philip said Gimlin burst out of the door with a rifle in hand, screaming and swearing at the man to get off his property. Polish guy was supposed to have responded by pretending to have poor English and not understand, speaking in Polish.

Bob clarified that it wasn't a Polish guy. He said that it was Kal Korff and his partner Martina Tycova. Bob was under the impression that Kal was from the Czech Republic, as was Martina. Kal has been living in Prague, but he is an American. Bob said he had not heard anything about any firearms being brandished, but Kal and Martina did walk over to Bob Gimlin's and record images of Bob's mailbox and house. Bob said that Gimlin did come out of the house swearing, and that he had chased Kal and Martina down the street who were walking away quickly back to Bob's house, and was trying to get the tape out of their camcorder or film out of camera.

- Bob said that Greg Long, Philip Morris and he were all supposed to be paid for the two and a half days filming of the NatGeo episode, but that Kal Korff had collected the money and kept it all for himself, using the money to buy computer(s?) in Redmond before returning back to Prague. Bob said that the cowboys depicting Patterson and Gimlin in the show were friends of his and had each been paid $60.

- I told Bob that Philip Morris was coming to visit me in Victoria after attending his grandson's graduation in Seattle, and we discussed the possibility of Morris and I visiting Bob in Yakima to have a sitdown, chat and shoot some video for the documentary project.

From this point, my next step is to call Greg Long. I called Greg Long a couple of days ago, but he was not at home at the time. Philip told me he may be on vacation.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:16 PM   #1035
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I may have found unequivocable physical proof the PGF was a hoax.
You had me at "unequivocable." Just make sure the cabin doesn't burn down.
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:30 PM   #1036
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Originally Posted by Kitakaze
Bob said that he knew John Ballard and that John had been confused. The suit found in his trunk was the PGF suit. That suit was found by his mother on the morning of Saturday, October 21st around 10:00 am. Bob's mother, aunt and cousin John Miller had all seen the suit. It was removed that night from the trunk when Patterson and Gimlin came to drop off Chico (they took only Chico and Peanuts to Bluff Creek) and get the suit. Opal saw Gimlin's green one ton truck with the Chico and the other horse in it, but Bob said he thought he was out at the time.
Doesn't make sense and contradicts his earlier story. In Long's book he said the did the filming on Friday, he went to Eureka to send off the film and stayed in a hotel overnight that Patterson paid for. He traveled up to Yakima on Saturday which is around a 14 hour drive.

Also, what about the people that said they saw this suit in Bob H's trunk at the bar?
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:42 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I also found that puzzling. The "likelihood of derail" justification seemed a bit contrived.

Oh well, I'll be patient and look forward to further updates from you Kit, either here or there.
Just a small derail for this thread: could someone explain the dynamics of that board to me, or point me to a thread were that has been done before? It's a strange, strange place and I really don't understand where the mods and admins are coming from most of the time. Also, anyone know how to become a member there when all you have is a gmail account? Feel free to PM me to keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
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Old 25th April 2010, 08:49 PM   #1038
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by wolftrax View Post
Doesn't make sense and contradicts his earlier story. In Long's book he said the did the filming on Friday, he went to Eureka to send off the film and stayed in a hotel overnight that Patterson paid for. He traveled up to Yakima on Saturday which is around a 14 hour drive.

Also, what about the people that said they saw this suit in Bob H's trunk at the bar?
The book doesn't mention a hotel that Patterson paid for. It says he rented a room in a building with logs on the side and doesn't say Patterson paid for it.

Bob's memory of that night is hazy, which makes sense if he did stop after the drive at the Idle Hour Tavern. In Long's book he said he arrived back in Yakima in the afternoon or evening. Les Johnson and Merle Warehime stated that Bob showed the suit to some people that night at the Idle Hour. Bob said to me specifically that he thought he was at work at the time. It's 2010. I don't expect his memory to be perfect. He said he doesn't remember every little detail. What we do know is that Opal Heironimus, her sister Willa and Bob's nephew John Miller all claimed to see the suit, and touch it.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 25th April 2010, 09:20 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
The book doesn't mention a hotel that Patterson paid for. It says he rented a room in a building with logs on the side and doesn't say Patterson paid for it.
Whatever, he stayed in a room for the night in a building, which a person would probably interpret as a hotel.

Quote:
Bob's memory of that night is hazy, which makes sense if he did stop after the drive at the Idle Hour Tavern.
He couldn't have stopped at the Idle Hour Tavern, remember, 14 hour drive? You mean the following evening? He said he went right to bed.

Quote:
In Long's book he said he arrived back in Yakima in the afternoon or evening.
Probably evening.

Quote:
Les Johnson and Merle Warehime stated that Bob showed the suit to some people that night at the Idle Hour.
They said what night?

Quote:
Bob said to me specifically that he thought he was at work at the time.
He worked on weekends?

Quote:
It's 2010. I don't expect his memory to be perfect. He said he doesn't remember every little detail. What we do know is that Opal Heironimus, her sister Willa and Bob's nephew John Miller all claimed to see the suit, and touch it.
Right, and Bob H said in Long's book that he didn't show it to anyone else, yet others claimed he did at the tavern, which Long never seemed to catch or follow up on.

Also, this timeline is working with the film delivery and processing timeline, which has always been problematic. Long thought by Bob H's description of the holiday banner in the nearby town that this took place much earlier, but Bob H's dates seem to revolve around the published timeline and further complicate how it was delivered and processed.

Wasn't Bob H's mom on the way to church or something, so what day was that on, a Sunday or Saturday as now being claimed?

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Old 25th April 2010, 09:30 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Bob said that he knew John Ballard and that John had been confused. The suit found in his trunk was the PGF suit. That suit was found by his mother on the morning of Saturday, October 21st around 10:00 am. Bob's mother, aunt and cousin John Miller had all seen the suit. It was removed that night from the trunk when Patterson and Gimlin came to drop off Chico (they took only Chico and Peanuts to Bluff Creek) and get the suit. Opal saw Gimlin's green one ton truck with the Chico and the other horse in it, but Bob said he thought he was out at the time.
.
So in other words, the suit was in the back of Bob's mother's car for a week, more or less ? Since the filming was a week before October 21, according to Bob H.? This would account for the reports that others saw the suit before it was retrieved by P and G. If Chico was gone for about 8 days, that would seem to fit, more or less. During this time, the film was processed.
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