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22nd April 2010, 12:46 PM | #1001 | |||
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A little something for JcR...
Apparently Ed thinks he's going to get Raph on Bigfoot and Dogman. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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22nd April 2010, 12:54 PM | #1002 |
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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22nd April 2010, 05:07 PM | #1003 |
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Just a reminder that Bill Munns said he'd like to make a replica of Patty if the money was there...
Originally Posted by question on BFF
Originally Posted by Bill Munns on BFF
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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22nd April 2010, 05:51 PM | #1004 |
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I think the whole 'arms are too long, legs are too short' hubbub is nothing but an optical delusion.
RayG |
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22nd April 2010, 09:25 PM | #1005 |
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
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The Ten Creepiest Creatures in America by Allan Zullo -1997 America's Most Haunted: True Scary Creatures by Allan Zullo - 1997 Saturday night, Volume 93 - 1978 Superstition and the press by Curtis Daniel MacDougall - 1983 Newsweek, Volume 128, Issue 25 - 1972 Great mysteries of the 20th century by Reader's Digest Association - 1996 The search for Big Foot: monster, myth or man? by Peter Byrne - 1975 Bigfoot All Over the Country by Marian Templeton Place - 1978 Sasquatch/Wild Man Of The Wood by Elaine Landau - 1993 Bigfoot: opposing viewpoints by Norma Gaffron - 1988 Encyclopedia of strange and unexplained physical phenomena by Jerome Clark - 1993 Big foot, Lochness and other mysterious monsters: a zoological look - 1978
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Alt. response: Why would a police officer risk faking a frozen bigfoot body and allowing it to be examined when it meant losing his career and reputation over an easily-exposed hoax?
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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22nd April 2010, 09:45 PM | #1006 |
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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22nd April 2010, 10:06 PM | #1007 |
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Originally Posted by Bill Munns on BFF
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Unlike certain cow...um..."people" I know, I'm willing to discuss this in further detail in a publicly available internet forum. |
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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22nd April 2010, 10:35 PM | #1008 |
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Two more things...
Page 128 (and beyond) of this preview of Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod has interesting notes on Roger's condition, analysis of the PGF, the Gimlin/Dahinden lawsuit, and more. This preview of Bigfoot Film Journal by Christopher L. Murphy covering pages 48+ discusses Patterson and Gimlin's living situations, who bought the copyright to Patterson's book (and drawings therein? This could help kit), legal issues, the fake Bob, along with other bits of information and hilarious "Bigfoot band-aids." |
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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22nd April 2010, 11:36 PM | #1009 |
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Atomic, thanks for the help and the whoopin'. I'll return your volley very soon. My conversation with Phil is the longest one I've had yet, and I have a mountain of notes from it to turn into something coherent. I'll tell you right now, I have no problem with the single piece foot mold. Phil said that part of the process for molds involved having pieces that would fit together with a ball and concave hole to insert the ball in, which was beyond his capabilities in the 60's. He also mentioned that the soles of the feet were made separately at the same place the chests were. There's much more he explained technically that I will post soon.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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22nd April 2010, 11:49 PM | #1010 |
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Wow, I didn't know this, any idea where this happened?
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On why Morris would bother with publicizing off of Bigfoot kookery, another example is Chambers allowing the rumor of him being behind the suit to continue, because it was good for business.
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22nd April 2010, 11:57 PM | #1011 |
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LMAO! He's totally full of it, Kit! He's lying to you. Beyond his capability? LMAO Dude, if you only realized how stupid his lies are in this regard. If he was sculpting AT ALL, this is a no brainer.
You should have a problem with the single piece mold, Kit, it's not going to work.
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ETA: I just thought of this, Kit, ask him the about the place he had do the soles separately, what it was called and where it was located, time to do some fact checking. |
23rd April 2010, 04:54 AM | #1012 |
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I looking forward to seeing any technical details to see if we can figure just what's being described regarding the casting & moulding. I can sort of kick around in my head some scenarios that sort of work with a one-piece mould. But they don't make a lot of sense!
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23rd April 2010, 10:26 AM | #1013 |
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Kit, from a posting on the internet by a supposed niece of Bob H, it appears that Bob may have a sister who can provide some information. You might ask Bob if you can speak with her.
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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23rd April 2010, 11:31 AM | #1014 |
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23rd April 2010, 01:17 PM | #1015 |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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23rd April 2010, 01:21 PM | #1016 |
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For wolftrax and Atomic,
Normally I would do this myself, but I am somewhat pressed for time. Can you provide me with a numbered list of questions for Phil that you think will show that he is lying to me? Don't post it here, as he may be reading, but send them to me by PM. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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23rd April 2010, 05:00 PM | #1017 |
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Hey, K!
I am interested on what Morris has to say about the Patty mask. Could he describe it, how it was built and eventual changes made by Patterson? It was not, after all, a standard gorilla face. Would he be able to provide a good picture or sketch of it? Similar question about the hands and forearms. How long they were, what sort of changes Patterson did and how, were its fingers articulated or not (and if yes, how was this achieved)? And no, I am not sure if Morris was the one who built the costume we see at PGF. He's a suspect, of course. |
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Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
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23rd April 2010, 08:57 PM | #1018 |
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Originally Posted by wolftrax
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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23rd April 2010, 09:10 PM | #1019 |
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Originally Posted by kitakaze
Don't take any of his jargon at face value. Run it by Verne Langdon, special effects/costume companies, and Halloween and/or costume-themed websites and forums. Oh, and it's great to see that JohnWS is back! |
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Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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23rd April 2010, 09:58 PM | #1020 |
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For the life of me I can't find it, but Bobbie Short also did an extensive interview with Chambers, and he told her he knew the rumor was going around for years and did not deny it because it was good for business. At the time she interviewed him, he was in a retirement home and admitted he had not been behind the hoax. I believe this was the first documentation of Chamber's denial.
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23rd April 2010, 10:41 PM | #1021 |
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Originally Posted by wolftrax
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__________________
Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
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23rd April 2010, 11:12 PM | #1022 |
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Thanks AMM - I've had a few months off this sort of stuff but definitely picked an interesting week to return. What with Kit' posting his findings on BFF and such.
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24th April 2010, 12:24 PM | #1023 |
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24th April 2010, 11:46 PM | #1024 |
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25th April 2010, 12:14 AM | #1025 |
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I want to apologize for being so tied up with the BFF Heironimus thread. Posting my info there has afforded me unique opportunities that I might not have here at a skeptics forum. For one thing, I can talk to Bill in public. While my criticisms of Bill remain the same, we're on much friendlier terms then we were a year ago. I am making an exchange with Bill for his scans from Roger's South Fork film. In return I will burn him a copy of the DVD Philip is sending me with the outtakes from NatGeo's Is It Real? Bigfoot special and Bob on the show Lie Detector. My hope is that the scans will have visual clues connecting to things I have researched about Patterson.
Some people may ask, "Why help Bill?" and think it's not a good idea for me to give him any material, but Bill is now looking outside just the film and into things like Bob's claim of being Patty. I don't in any way consider Bill a rival. Just another PGF researcher with the opposite thinking of me about the film's veracity. I am also going to ask Phil to send Bill a copy of Long's book for him to read. I will be talking with Bob tomorrow on the phone. He called me tonight while I was working and left a message. I encourage anyone who is interested to follow the BH thread at the BFF... http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=29264 |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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25th April 2010, 02:01 AM | #1026 |
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25th April 2010, 08:34 AM | #1027 |
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Don't forget to ask Bob about his sister and what she might be able to contribute.
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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25th April 2010, 11:20 AM | #1028 |
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Prominent bigfoot blogger calls BS, bails
While only indirectly related to this topic, this deserves notice.
The big news in 'footerville is the "desertion" of a well-known 'footer. DB Donlon, who had the well-known blog "Blogsquatcher," has folded his tent and left a statement behind (cached). Loren Coleman and others in the 'village' try to make it seem like the guy was just, you know, ready to move on. But they don't post this part of his statement: :
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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25th April 2010, 12:00 PM | #1029 |
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some person claiming to be Bob H.'s niece from Denver posted a note saying that her mother knew Bob was telling the truth.
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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25th April 2010, 03:58 PM | #1030 |
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I see the BFF closed their thread, for no apparent reason. Seems like kit was making too many friends.
or else they were afraid somebody was gonna get after the whole "unknown primate DNA" claim. Because, of course, there is no such thing. |
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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25th April 2010, 04:10 PM | #1031 |
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Apparently, not permanently .. At least that is not the stated intention ..
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Maybe later.... |
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25th April 2010, 06:20 PM | #1032 |
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25th April 2010, 07:00 PM | #1033 |
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That seemed utterly random to me. Everyone was getting along swimmingly. Oh well. Their board, their call. I can't wait right now.
I have spoken again with Bob Heironimus. Something has come up in my investigation that I never expected. It's something BH didn't recognize as important. It might be a wild goose chase, or it might be the most important thing to the PGF controversy ever found. I can not say more right now until I've figured someway to handle this information correctly. I will need help privately from both the JREF and the BFF. I may have found unequivocable physical proof the PGF was a hoax. My PM box is 96% full, and I can't handle a massive whollop of PM's right now. I have some phone calls to make, and some digging to do, and when I have a better idea how to proceed, I'll post more. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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25th April 2010, 08:02 PM | #1034 |
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News update.
In the meantime, here are some other detaills from my discussion with Bob Heironimus today. We spoke not so long, maybe 45 minutes or so. I was calling to touch base after we hadn't spoken for a while. I told about all the developments since we last spoke, and to ask him some important questions that were on my mind. Bob is doing well, though he pulled a hamstring bowling.
- One of the first things I wanted to know was about when Bob first met Al DeAtley. In 2001 Al told Greg Long that he had knew Bob and had met him through Roger. I wanted to know if this was before the film was made or after. I was trying to establish the depth of BH's involvement with Patterson and anything they might have been up to in '66 when Roger's book first came out, and leading up to the film. I asked when was the first time Bob had met Al DeAtley. Bob told me it was at the Saddle Tree restaurant and nightclub when he approached Al about receiving the $1000 that Roger had promised him after the film was made. Bob said he had a friend beside him whose name was Gary. He could not recall the last name. As I reported earlier, Bob said this happened about half a year to a year after the PGF, but Glenda Heironimus clarified that it was in 1970. - I wanted to discuss with Bob the rumour originating with John Ballard, the man who supplied some of the horses for Roger's South Fork documentary depicting intrepid Bigfoot hunters tracking the beast, that Bob had been using a grey horsehide suit around Yakima for hoaxing. First I asked Bob if he had ever prior to the time he first tried on the PGF suit at Roger's house worn a Bigfoot or ape suit. Bob said that the PGF suit was the first time. I wanted to be specific so I informed Bob of the claim made by John Ballard that some local teenagers had been scared by silver-grey creature and then a grey horsehide suit had been found in Bob's trunk. I read him part of the passage from Long's book and asked him if that made any sense. Bob said that he knew John Ballard and that John had been confused. The suit found in his trunk was the PGF suit. That suit was found by his mother on the morning of Saturday, October 21st around 10:00 am. Bob's mother, aunt and cousin John Miller had all seen the suit. It was removed that night from the trunk when Patterson and Gimlin came to drop off Chico (they took only Chico and Peanuts to Bluff Creek) and get the suit. Opal saw Gimlin's green one ton truck with the Chico and the other horse in it, but Bob said he thought he was out at the time. Bob told me that he had heard from a friend who knew Roger that had been paying some guys to where a suit and scare people out by the coast, possibly in the Auburn area. I pressed Bob for the name of this friend and he told me his name was Roy Sappenfield. Roy has since passed on, but Bob gave me the name of Roy's brother to follow up on. - I related to Bob the anecdote Philip had told me about when he and other people involved in the NatGeo special gathered at Bob's house on S. 90th Ave. Philip had said that he and a Polish guy with excellent English (he said better than his) had been discussing walking up the street to have a peek at Bob Gimlin's house and confirm it was just down the street. Philip said the man went to Gimlin's house, checked out the mailbox, and then was brave/stupid enough to try and knock on the door. Philip said Gimlin burst out of the door with a rifle in hand, screaming and swearing at the man to get off his property. Polish guy was supposed to have responded by pretending to have poor English and not understand, speaking in Polish. Bob clarified that it wasn't a Polish guy. He said that it was Kal Korff and his partner Martina Tycova. Bob was under the impression that Kal was from the Czech Republic, as was Martina. Kal has been living in Prague, but he is an American. Bob said he had not heard anything about any firearms being brandished, but Kal and Martina did walk over to Bob Gimlin's and record images of Bob's mailbox and house. Bob said that Gimlin did come out of the house swearing, and that he had chased Kal and Martina down the street who were walking away quickly back to Bob's house, and was trying to get the tape out of their camcorder or film out of camera. - Bob said that Greg Long, Philip Morris and he were all supposed to be paid for the two and a half days filming of the NatGeo episode, but that Kal Korff had collected the money and kept it all for himself, using the money to buy computer(s?) in Redmond before returning back to Prague. Bob said that the cowboys depicting Patterson and Gimlin in the show were friends of his and had each been paid $60. - I told Bob that Philip Morris was coming to visit me in Victoria after attending his grandson's graduation in Seattle, and we discussed the possibility of Morris and I visiting Bob in Yakima to have a sitdown, chat and shoot some video for the documentary project. From this point, my next step is to call Greg Long. I called Greg Long a couple of days ago, but he was not at home at the time. Philip told me he may be on vacation. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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25th April 2010, 08:16 PM | #1035 |
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25th April 2010, 08:30 PM | #1036 |
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Originally Posted by Kitakaze
Also, what about the people that said they saw this suit in Bob H's trunk at the bar? |
25th April 2010, 08:42 PM | #1037 |
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Just a small derail for this thread: could someone explain the dynamics of that board to me, or point me to a thread were that has been done before? It's a strange, strange place and I really don't understand where the mods and admins are coming from most of the time. Also, anyone know how to become a member there when all you have is a gmail account? Feel free to PM me to keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
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25th April 2010, 08:49 PM | #1038 |
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The book doesn't mention a hotel that Patterson paid for. It says he rented a room in a building with logs on the side and doesn't say Patterson paid for it.
Bob's memory of that night is hazy, which makes sense if he did stop after the drive at the Idle Hour Tavern. In Long's book he said he arrived back in Yakima in the afternoon or evening. Les Johnson and Merle Warehime stated that Bob showed the suit to some people that night at the Idle Hour. Bob said to me specifically that he thought he was at work at the time. It's 2010. I don't expect his memory to be perfect. He said he doesn't remember every little detail. What we do know is that Opal Heironimus, her sister Willa and Bob's nephew John Miller all claimed to see the suit, and touch it. |
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer. 2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum. I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6 |
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25th April 2010, 09:20 PM | #1039 |
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Whatever, he stayed in a room for the night in a building, which a person would probably interpret as a hotel.
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Also, this timeline is working with the film delivery and processing timeline, which has always been problematic. Long thought by Bob H's description of the holiday banner in the nearby town that this took place much earlier, but Bob H's dates seem to revolve around the published timeline and further complicate how it was delivered and processed. Wasn't Bob H's mom on the way to church or something, so what day was that on, a Sunday or Saturday as now being claimed? |
25th April 2010, 09:30 PM | #1040 |
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So in other words, the suit was in the back of Bob's mother's car for a week, more or less ? Since the filming was a week before October 21, according to Bob H.? This would account for the reports that others saw the suit before it was retrieved by P and G. If Chico was gone for about 8 days, that would seem to fit, more or less. During this time, the film was processed.
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"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
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