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Old 6th October 2017, 03:49 PM   #761
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
(stuff)
It's not that I've been wrong about Trump, it's that Hillary voters have been wrong about me.
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Old 6th October 2017, 03:55 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Throwing this rock in the pond:

Were Trump Voters Irrational?
Yet nary a ripple...

Because, according to the author, rationality is determined within each voters' framework, and self-interest isn't part of the equation.
Originally Posted by Keith Stanovich
Many of these critiques contain the presumptions that, to be rational, preferences must be self-interested and that peopleís primary desires are monetary. I have just discussed how rational choice theory contains no such presumptions, so on that basis alone the claim that such voters are irrational is unfounded.
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Old 6th October 2017, 04:19 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yet nary a ripple...

Because, according to the author, rationality is determined within each voters' framework, and self-interest isn't part of the equation.

Yes, and other motivations besides self-interest provide the basis, therefore. The key is in understanding what those motivations are.

The author raises a theoretical Ted Cruz vs. Al Sharpton comparison, although I would think a better substitute for Ted Cruz may be Pence or even Dubya. Would a liberal rationally vote for Sharpton, despite personality issues?

In fact, at a certain point the Liberal-Conservative grouping becomes illusory. Does one side present a sufficient number of positions you identify with to consider voting for them? Note the article brings up science, then goes on to illustrate positions on each end of the spectrum that have scientific backing.

I'm not sure if any of this motivates forgiveness. I would think though that some measure of understanding the other is key to American rapprochement.
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Old 6th October 2017, 04:35 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
People who it unpleasant to have their viewpoints or beliefs challenged would be well advised to frequent a different sort of message board.
...
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Old 6th October 2017, 07:16 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Yes, and other motivations besides self-interest provide the basis, therefore. The key is in understanding what those motivations are.

The author raises a theoretical Ted Cruz vs. Al Sharpton comparison, although I would think a better substitute for Ted Cruz may be Pence or even Dubya. Would a liberal rationally vote for Sharpton, despite personality issues?

In fact, at a certain point the Liberal-Conservative grouping becomes illusory. Does one side present a sufficient number of positions you identify with to consider voting for them? Note the article brings up science, then goes on to illustrate positions on each end of the spectrum that have scientific backing.

I'm not sure if any of this motivates forgiveness. I would think though that some measure of understanding the other is key to American rapprochement.
I would vote for Sharpton IFF he was the Democratic option - which I am quite certain he would not be- but he would not be a preference as such!!! There is no chance I will ever vote for a republicker for any office in any future I can imagine. Their only desire is to ruin the country - based on their ideas as presented by the thugs and slime they support.
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Old 6th October 2017, 07:19 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Slamming a group of people who post on this forum is not "challenging beliefs". It's insulting and attacking other forum members under the transparent guise of referring to a group.
With no offense, republickers are a group and it is not a trick/guise as the group is the problem.
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Old 9th October 2017, 01:22 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
If a Pres is impeached, does his powers get taken away immediately? Does sound like the Pres should be able to be stopped in a democratic way, if in fact, he is crazy, I mean literally mentally ill, pretty much exactly like Trump is. I guess this would mean the impeachment would have to happen before he decides to press the button, but I suppose things like this don't happen suddenly, you would expect a period of escalation (exactly like now in fact)

I wonder what the button looks like?

In case of impeachment, the nuclear codes and the suitcase with the button are given to the WH janitor for safe keeping.

Everybody knows this.
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Old 9th October 2017, 01:36 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
In case of impeachment, the nuclear codes and the suitcase with the button are given to the WH janitor for safe keeping.

Everybody knows this.
given Trump's germophobia, it would be enough for someone to sneeze on the Football and Trump wouldn't be able to bring himself to to use it to save the US of A.
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Old 9th October 2017, 02:46 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And Minoosh was responding to me own statement about North Korea engaging in more limited conflict. So that military attack (and it's far from the only such example) is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

And of course the threat isn't just North Korea. Iran is also a big problem in this regard. And it has neighbors that it could engage in actual war with.
Well that Wiki article is clear as mud. As far as I can tell, the supposed North Korean torpedo never hit the South Korean ship. Different countries proposed scenarios that absolved North Korea, not that I believe them, necessarily, but it certainly demonstrates that each country was looking at the incident through its own lens.

Iran is of course fighting ISIS, so maybe you're right: It doesn't hesitate to attack genocidal Sunni cults. But it's not a nuclear power. Iran is not really analogous to North Korea, IMO. I would not paint it with the same brush. They are more different than alike.
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Old 9th October 2017, 04:16 AM   #770
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http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...war-119021?o=1

This is an interesting and frightening article about the dangers of having a dysfunctional president.

Quote:
Larry Eagleburger, who served as secretary of state under President George H. W. Bush, later noted, “One of the things that I recall now with a great deal more equanimity than I did at the time is what was never really understood: the degree to which the Watergate crisis, particularly in its final months, meant that if we had been put to the test somewhere in the foreign policy arena, we would not have been able to respond. We were a ship dead in the water.”
Although The Hair doesn't drink, the other parallels to our current situation are striking.
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Old 10th October 2017, 05:31 AM   #771
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Trump voter: There is no climate change. Or it’s just a couple of degrees.
Me: The entire 1-2 million years of us on the planet with our upright ancestors is contained in 5 degrees Celsius. Ice ages and all.
Trump voter: what’s Celsius? Some kind of socialist thing?
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:26 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...war-119021?o=1

This is an interesting and frightening article about the dangers of having a dysfunctional president.



Although The Hair doesn't drink, the other parallels to our current situation are striking.
I'm not completely clear on this.
Does impeachment also rob a president of his power to act? Or is the article just referring to the mental state of the President (In Nixon's case; paranoid and drunk).
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:11 AM   #773
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Now we can go to homes of Trump supporters who are dying for a lack of healthcare and point and laugh at them.
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Old 13th October 2017, 10:43 AM   #774
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Lol
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Now we can go to homes of Trump supporters who are dying for a lack of healthcare and point and laugh at them.
Ah, the compassionate face of progressivism.
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:08 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah, the compassionate face of progressivism.
"Love Trumps Hate", remember?
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:19 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah, the compassionate face of progressivism.
Craig4's suggestion was a heinous idea, one devoid of compassion.

Though probably not so bad as intentionally making the current system fail, thus increasing the death rate, just because you really, really want to repeal Obamacare and can't wait for Congress to get it's act together.

Yes, I know, the admin claims the subsidies are illegal. I've no idea if they're right or wrong[1], but even if they were illegal but beneficial, the administration could continue the subsidies until ordered by a court to stop. This is an intentional and unnecessary breaking of Obamacare and it will have negative consequences for many people.

That's worse than suggesting we mock those dying fools who voted for Trump. Both are bad, but Craig4's not as bad.

[1] (ETA) They're right, in the sense that a court has said they're illegal but, if I understand correctly, there has been no order to stop such payments. Such payments could not go on indefinitely, however (source).

My main point in that sentence stands. Such payments could continue until a court ordered them to stop. Since they actually increase the number of those insured, this would be a good thing to do.

Last edited by phiwum; 13th October 2017 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:39 PM   #778
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What's increasingly angering me about Trump supporters is that even though they comprise what, some 1/4 of the populace, they are holding the nation hostage by blindly continuing in their misplaced faith. GOP politicians will not go against this rabid base by criticizing the dangerous lunatic in charge for fear of losing in upcoming elections.

It seems that nothing can penetrate into this base's collective consciousness that points to the danger their enthusiasm for Trump represents.

But an increasing share of my hatred is directed toward the spineless GOP critters in the House and Senate. Their continued cowardly dithering will, I hope, result in their electoral defeat and a legacy of ignominy through all of history. Act NOW, you fools! When danger looms, to risk career in the service of the Nation is just about the noblest of undertakings. That would assure a legacy of honor.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:44 PM   #779
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Craig4's suggestion was a heinous idea, one devoid of compassion.

Though probably not so bad as intentionally making the current system fail, thus increasing the death rate, just because you really, really want to repeal Obamacare and can't wait for Congress to get it's act together.
The passage of Obamacare did not lower the death rate. There is little reason to believe that its failure will increase the death rate.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:48 PM   #780
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https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...nd-competition

If I'm reading this right, Trump has "ordered" HHS to "consider" doing some things?

Expanding access to associations isn't really a bad idea. The ACA small group market is super tiny, not affordable, and fraught with problems. Associations still have to cover the EHB, and still have to hit the minimum 60% AV that large employers are subject to... but they do get much better bargaining power.

Short Term benefits... mmm... There's a role for them, but it's still pretty much a bad idea. I mean, if you're healthy and you're only going to be without coverage for a short period of time (between jobs, for example), it's not necessarily bad to have access to limited benefits. But they're definitely not a replacement for comprehensive coverage. That bears close watching.

I have no objection to HRAs, and without some actual information on *what* Trump is thinking with respect to them, I have no opinion on this at all.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:57 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The passage of Obamacare did not lower the death rate. There is little reason to believe that its failure will increase the death rate.
I don't know whether Obamacare lowered the death rate, but so long as we generally want to keep more people insured, purposely harming the program without having a replacement is a foolhardy option.

However, this isn't the thread to discuss it. My apologies for going off topic.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:04 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know whether Obamacare lowered the death rate, but so long as we generally want to keep more people insured, purposely harming the program without having a replacement is a foolhardy option.

However, this isn't the thread to discuss it. My apologies for going off topic.
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Lol, I lost track of which thread I was in, my post was supposed to go in the ACA one! Now I feel better, I can blame it on you!
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:27 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know whether Obamacare lowered the death rate
Narrator: It did not.

Quote:
but so long as we generally want to keep more people insured
Insurance coverage is only a means to an end, it should never be mistaken as an end in itself.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:20 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The passage of Obamacare did not lower the death rate. There is little reason to believe that its failure will increase the death rate.
Snapshots don't count in long term trends.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:22 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Snapshots don't count in long term trends.
And evidence doesn't count in dogma. Nevertheless, what I said is true.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:44 PM   #786
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After 20 pages, I'm picking up that the answer to "Will you ever forgive Trump voters?" is NO.



As an aside, here is a snippet from The Atlantic in 2007 ("Pluralism and Democracy"):
"The greatest threat to pluralism and democracy in the contemporary world is the belief that virtuous government requires religious homogeneity and clerical dominance: a single faith and a single version of God’s law. "

I'm sure that is a mindset that wouldn't be found on these forums.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:54 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
After 20 pages, I'm picking up that the answer to "Will you ever forgive Trump voters?" is NO.



As an aside, here is a snippet from The Atlantic in 2007 ("Pluralism and Democracy"):
"The greatest threat to pluralism and democracy in the contemporary world is the belief that virtuous government requires religious homogeneity and clerical dominance: a single faith and a single version of Godís law. "

I'm sure that is a mindset that wouldn't be found on these forums.
You obviously didn't see my answer on page 7. Here's an ancillary article to your Atlantic Article.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps...-anti-american
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:00 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Insurance coverage is only a means to an end, it should never be mistaken as an end in itself.
This is very, very true.

Health insurance is a financial vehicle. It is not care, nor is it access to care. Just like auto insurance is not transportation, nor is it access to transportation.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:04 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah, the compassionate face of progressivism.
It's all they rate. It's all they're good enough for.
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:24 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is very, very true.

Health insurance is a financial vehicle. It is not care, nor is it access to care. Just like auto insurance is not transportation, nor is it access to transportation.
A financial vehicle that has important, if not profound consequences.

If one has no auto insurance one (legally) does not have access to control of one's own motorized, personal transportation. And to drive without carries the potential for financial ruin.

Without health insurance, one is subject to the debilitation of financial ruin in the event of expensive care.

But whereas driving is an optional priveledge, health is a basic right. In an ostensibly civilized, first world nation, such should be true, as it is in most others. The US is still stumbling along in a kind of Dark Age on the health care front, defiantly and obstereporously dismissive of the common sense-based, less costly and kinder model so many of us other nations have long adopted.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:21 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Now we can go to homes of Trump supporters who are dying for a lack of healthcare and point and laugh at them.
This, unfortunately, makes sense.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:24 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
A financial vehicle that has important, if not profound consequences.

If one has no auto insurance one (legally) does not have access to control of one's own motorized, personal transportation. And to drive without carries the potential for financial ruin.

Without health insurance, one is subject to the debilitation of financial ruin in the event of expensive care.

But whereas driving is an optional priveledge, health is a basic right. In an ostensibly civilized, first world nation, such should be true, as it is in most others. The US is still stumbling along in a kind of Dark Age on the health care front, defiantly and obstereporously dismissive of the common sense-based, less costly and kinder model so many of us other nations have long adopted.
Given republicker beliefs and actions demonstrated by them, they are at best ostensibly civilized. Or, in other and more clear terms, they have no hearts.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:26 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah, the compassionate face of progressivism.
No, simply justice. Well earned by their choices.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:27 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ahhh. The joys of tribalism in the modern world.
Says a Republican.

Do you acknowledge the fact that Donald Trump is extremely incompetent and a danger to the entire world?

I doubt it. For the sole reason that he is a Republican.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:30 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No, simply justice. Well earned by their choices.
I literally do not care about the people that voted for Trump and will be hurt by him. They deserve it.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:32 AM   #796
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
After 20 pages, I'm picking up that the answer to "Will you ever forgive Trump voters?" is NO.



As an aside, here is a snippet from The Atlantic in 2007 ("Pluralism and Democracy"):
"The greatest threat to pluralism and democracy in the contemporary world is the belief that virtuous government requires religious homogeneity and clerical dominance: a single faith and a single version of God’s law. "

I'm sure that is a mindset that wouldn't be found on these forums.
As to the bolded/colored: Hell. I will never forgive G. Bush ("Shrub") voters!!!
They were damned religionists and the current batch are damned Nazi's -with a damned anti-science bias!!!!!!.
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Last edited by fuelair; 14th October 2017 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:42 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ahhh. The joys of tribalism in the modern world.
I'm not against Republicans or people who vote Republican (the first vote I ever cast was for Mark Hatfield of Oregon). But keep in mind that we have learned nothing new about Trump. His behavior has not gotten worse since the election. People knew what they were voting for and that is nothing short of a betrayal of the country. So yeah, if I see a Trump supporter suffering because of Trump's healthcare decision, I'm going to laugh at them.
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Old 14th October 2017, 08:36 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
As to the bolded/colored: Hell. I will never forgive G. Bush ("Shrub") voters!!!
They were damned religionists and the current batch are damned Nazi's -with a damned anti-science bias!!!!!!.
It's hard to take your complaints seriously when you sound like a zealot yourself. And additional exclamation marks do not make you any more convincing. You may find it hard to believe, but they can actually have the opposite effect.
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Old 14th October 2017, 08:43 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's hard to take your complaints seriously when you sound like a zealot yourself. And additional exclamation marks do not make you any more convincing. You may find it hard to believe, but they can actually have the opposite effect.
At least it's not more rape-murder fantasies.
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Old 14th October 2017, 10:03 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's hard to take your complaints seriously when you sound like a zealot yourself. And additional exclamation marks do not make you any more convincing. You may find it hard to believe, but they can actually have the opposite effect.
If your house was on fire, would you tiptoe around whispering it?
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