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Old 12th October 2017, 03:16 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You are forgetting the ruins...every trace EXCEPT THEM were vanished.
Except you said earlier:
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Had you watched the video, you'd have seen the evidence of a massive debris wall snapping off mastodon femurs.
So, if there is evidence of a "massive debris wall" that can show us snapped off mastodon femurs, then why is it not showing us actual bits of the civilisation in question other than these buildings?

Or are the other buildings, roads etc somehow more fragile than a mastodon leg? Or more prone to some sort of sorting?

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Under water, perhaps? That tends to happen with flooding.
Considering we have ruins, we would expect the other stuff to be located near them. That's how pretty much all other sites work.
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Old 12th October 2017, 04:26 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Except you said earlier:


So, if there is evidence of a "massive debris wall" that can show us snapped off mastodon femurs, then why is it not showing us actual bits of the civilisation in question other than these buildings?

Or are the other buildings, roads etc somehow more fragile than a mastodon leg? Or more prone to some sort of sorting?



Considering we have ruins, we would expect the other stuff to be located near them. That's how pretty much all other sites work.
You've conflated two unrelated issues.
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Old 12th October 2017, 04:28 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where was Atlantis?
Above sea level.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:13 AM   #364
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Small tsunami results:
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg Unknown-28.jpeg (9.5 KB, 67 views)
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:31 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Small tsunami results:
I see foundations and other evidence that there was something there. Are you sure this picture supports your position?

By the way, wouldn't a huge civilization-erasing flood not have tumbled the GT ruins?
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:32 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Small tsunami results:
And?
You've just proved our point.
Look at that image and tell me there aren't any artifacts in that lot.

You walk around there and you'll find tons of stuff.

And that's a tsunami.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:34 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And?
You've just proved our point.
Look at that image and tell me there aren't any artifacts in that lot.

You walk around there and you'll find tons of stuff.

And that's a tsunami.
Now imagine what would be left if the water had been 100ft deep over the site...
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:36 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I see foundations and other evidence that there was something there. Are you sure this picture supports your position?

By the way, wouldn't a huge civilization-erasing flood not have tumbled the GT ruins?
We don't know what caused the GT site to be emptied. We only know that those following, covered it up, and preserved it, as they found it.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:37 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And?
You've just proved our point.
Look at that image and tell me there aren't any artifacts in that lot.

You walk around there and you'll find tons of stuff.

And that's a tsunami.
AGAIN, we still have the ruins of these ancient civilizations...
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:07 AM   #370
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No one doubts that the ruins exist.
They doubt your un evidenced assertions.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:30 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No one doubts that the ruins exist.
They doubt your un evidenced assertions.
That they were created by a vanished people/civilization with unknown means, around 12,500 years ago?

Last edited by King of the Americas; 12th October 2017 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 04:33 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
That they were created by a vanished people/civilization with unknown means, around 12,500 years ago?
That's not true. The imagery and artwork found at Gobekli Tepe is found at other stone age archaeological sites in the same area. It's like other abandoned Mesopotamian sites, the people developed other later locations like Karahan Tepe.
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:35 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
That's not true. The imagery and artwork found at Gobekli Tepe is found at other stone age archaeological sites in the same area. It's like other abandoned Mesopotamian sites, the people developed other later locations like Karahan Tepe.
So, are you supposing that these other sites are similar or even the same as GT?

What did these ruins date to?
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:36 PM   #374
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So, this scablands flood...where did the water go?

How much did it raise the ocean levels?
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:58 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard
That's not true. The imagery and artwork found at Gobekli Tepe is found at other stone age archaeological sites in the same area. It's like other abandoned Mesopotamian sites, the people developed other later locations like Karahan Tepe.
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, are you supposing that these other sites are similar or even the same as GT? What did these ruins date to?
I am not supposing. I am informing you that the same imagery and motifs appear at Karahan Tepe, which is dated at 8500BCE indicating the people at Gobekli Tepe were still around and not wiped out in some magical flood around 12,000 BCE.

Your "lost agricultural civilisation" claim is thus debunked twice. Firstly by grain DNA evidence and secondly that the population was still there.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:13 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I am not supposing. I am informing you that the same imagery and motifs appear at Karahan Tepe, which is dated at 8500BCE indicating the people at Gobekli Tepe were still around and not wiped out in some magical flood around 12,000 BCE.

Your "lost agricultural civilisation" claim is thus debunked twice. Firstly by grain DNA evidence and secondly that the population was still there.
You're conflating and pettifogging.

Atlantis was destroyed by a global flood, about 12,500 years ago. The flood was released with this scablands event.

GT dates TO this time period, and the site required a MASSIVE labor force as well as agriculture.

AFTER this period...humanity took a nose-dive, and stopped building 'as intricate' temples and monuments. There WERE still monument builders, but the designs had lost much in craftsmanship, until they stopped altogether.

We know humanity had advanced agriculture and massive settlements/cities, because GT was perfectly preserved by those who followed thereafter.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 13th October 2017 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:22 AM   #377
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Cool drum temple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhoOA3pASy4

*We just don't build stuff like that anymore...

Last edited by King of the Americas; 13th October 2017 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:27 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Atlantis was destroyed by a global flood, about 12,500 years ago. a fictitious city made up by Plato to make a point, as was his wont.
FTFY.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:35 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
FTFY.
There should be a bad word created for people who dismiss historical fact for their own convenience...no direct offense.

"Homer's Troy."
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:37 AM   #380
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Atlantis is not historical fact.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:45 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Atlantis is not historical fact.
So said those about Troy, before it was found.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:48 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So said those about Troy, before it was found.
So they still say about Mordor and Narnia. Are you going to claim those are historical fact too?

There was a lot more reason to suspect that the stories about Troy had a basis in history than there is to suspect the same about Atlantis.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:58 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So they still say about Mordor and Narnia. Are you going to claim those are historical fact too?

There was a lot more reason to suspect that the stories about Troy had a basis in history than there is to suspect the same about Atlantis.
The authors of those did not have historical data on their side, and they told us these were works of fiction.

Plato does not ascribe fiction to his work.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 13th October 2017 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:01 AM   #384
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Plato did (and does) not have historical data on his side, and was well known for making up stories to make a point.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:09 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Plato did (and does) not have historical data on his side, and was well known for making up stories to make a point.
His date for Atlantis' destruction IS the younger dryas, this scablands flood, to dismiss this is folly.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:12 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Atlantis is not historical fact.
Plato was a well written student, teacher, and historian. To completely make-up a tale of a non-existent city, to make a point, would have been a VERY weak point indeed.

Fiction CAN'T teach you how the real world works. History hopes to do so.

Fiction is for entertainment.

Plato wrote to teach.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:29 AM   #387
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Ok...the woo is coming out. I think I'll take scholarly word above your's KotA.

"The continuing industry of discovering Atlantis illustrates the dangers of reading
Plato. For he is clearly using what has become a standard device of fictionstressing
the historicity of an event (and the discovery of hitherto unknown
authorities) as an indication that what follows is fiction. The idea is that we
should use the story to examine our ideas of government and power. We have
missed the point if instead of thinking about these issues we go off exploring the
sea bed. The continuing misunderstanding of Plato as historian here enables us
to see why his distrust of imaginative writing is sometimes justified."

J. Annas, Plato: A Very Short Introduction (OUP 2003), p.42

This is quoted in the Atlantis Wikipedia article. However, the pdf version of her entire work concerning Plato is available for free in pdf form. Please inform yourself.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:42 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
His date for Atlantis' destruction IS the younger dryas, this scablands flood, to dismiss this is folly.
To proffer this as evidence for Atlantis is folly. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for you.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:46 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Plato was a well written student, teacher, and historian.
He wasn't an historian.

Quote:
To completely make-up a tale of a non-existent city, to make a point, would have been a VERY weak point indeed.
People have been making up fictitious stories to make a point for as long as there have been people. Even Jesus did it. It's a very good way to make a point, which is why it's always been one of the most popular ways to do so.

Quote:
Fiction CAN'T teach you how the real world works. History hopes to do so.

Fiction is for entertainment.

Plato wrote to teach.
You could not be more wrong. All good teachers use stories and parables. Plato was a good teacher.
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Old 13th October 2017, 08:18 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Cool drum temple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhoOA3pASy4

*We just don't build stuff like that anymore...
There's no demand at the moment. I can't shift any temples at all. Pyramids and Catacombs are on a downer at the moment as well no customers for a few millenia. Same with cast iron train sheds and box girder bridges, not had any men in side whiskers or tall stovepipe hats asking after them for over a hundred years
Can I interest you in some glass, concrete and steel?
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Old 13th October 2017, 08:19 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The authors of those did not have historical data on their side, and they told us these were works of fiction.

Plato does not ascribe fiction to his work.
I assume KotA still has me on ignore, but for anyone who hasn't ever bothered to look into the original source for all this Atlantis stuff:

It's a work of fiction. Obviously. Plato at no point claims otherwise - one of the fictional characters claims it's true, but for obvious reasons that doesn't count. Plato isn't a character in the story, so nothing in the story should be attributed to Plato as if he said it - rather he was the author, and everything else was the dialogue of a fictional character.

Furthermore, if you apply the standard KotA is to everything Plato wrote you have to take a lot of other things as "true" that he doesn't.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:16 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You're conflating and pettifogging.
No. I'm reading the actual recent Anthropological prehistory papers on Göbekli Tepe comparing it's culture to other cultures nearby. Have you read any of these?

Although carvings on the three human skulls from Göbekli Tepe are so far unique, all other modification types have known parallels from Neolithic sites in Anatolia and the Levant (table S3). Cut marks connected with secondary burial customs are documented at numerous sites [for example, Tell Qaramel (5), Jericho (10), Körtik Tepe (27)], and ochre and other coloring substances have been found adhering to bones or as scattered layers covering skeletons [for example, Körtik Tepe (27), ’Ain Ghazal (9), and Jericho (10)].

Do you think Jericho, which shares cultural burial activities and population with Göbekli Tepe was also destroyed by a magical flood?

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
AFTER this period...humanity took a nose-dive....,
If there were systematic agriculture around Göbekli Tepe then the salt tables would have risen exactly as they did in Mesopotamia. Why isn't this so? What is your "working hypothesis" to explain this absence?
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:42 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Now imagine what would be left if the water had been 100ft deep over the site...
The crude beer made at Göbekli Tepe for ritual feasts, as archaeologists found on the site, only used local wild grain species.

Can you explain why this is so if , as you claim, there was large scale systematic agriculture going on by a unknown civilisation?


The role of cult and feasting in the emergence of Neolithic communities. New evidence from Gobekli Tepe, ¨
https://www.cambridge.org/core/servi...03598X00047840
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:27 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Skepticism is a kind of "woo"...

Adherence to it in spite of new-found facts is unwise.
Adherence to scepticism in spite of new-found facts is impossible.
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Old 14th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
To proffer this as evidence for Atlantis is folly. Honestly, I'm embarrassed for you.
People were embarrassed for Heinrich Schliemann...
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Old 14th October 2017, 06:57 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
He wasn't an historian.


People have been making up fictitious stories to make a point for as long as there have been people. Even Jesus did it. It's a very good way to make a point, which is why it's always been one of the most popular ways to do so.



You could not be more wrong. All good teachers use stories and parables. Plato was a good teacher.
So he WAS a well written teacher and student...??

Using parables is NOT the same as whole-cloth creating a factious city.
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:00 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There's no demand at the moment. I can't shift any temples at all. Pyramids and Catacombs are on a downer at the moment as well no customers for a few millenia. Same with cast iron train sheds and box girder bridges, not had any men in side whiskers or tall stovepipe hats asking after them for over a hundred years
Can I interest you in some glass, concrete and steel?
People still live in huts, hurts, teepees, and yes, even caves.

These technologies never left.

The processes that created that drum temple are UNKNOWN.
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:02 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Adherence to scepticism in spite of new-found facts is impossible.
Right, you just reject those.
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:10 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
People were embarrassed for Heinrich Schliemann...
Heinrich Scliemann would be embarrassed for you. He knew what good evidence looked like, and once he found it he had no trouble convincing people.
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:17 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Using parables is NOT the same as whole-cloth creating a factious city.
Of course it is. Writers frequently create entire fictitious countries, even worlds, to make points about the real one. Jonathon Swift, Terry Pratchett ...
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