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Old 10th October 2017, 11:53 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
According to the Qur'an, our Earth, the universe, and other universes are geoid.I explained it in my Turkish article with its proofs. The Qur'an offers a multiple-universe model.

But the universes are limited numbers, not infinite numbers. Example; 7 universes...

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/20...revrenler.html
I do not recall any verses in the Quran about 7 universes. There is a verse about 7 heavens and about 7 oceans, but I would like you to quote a verse that says anything about other universes.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:54 AM   #42
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[quote=Scorpion;12027844]If you read the bible you will find it very familiar, because QUOTE]

Because the Gospels in your hand contain some parts of the original Bible. Of course most are faulty.

The Koran only gives correct information.

Short or long narration is not important, it is important to give true and true knowledge.

Real events and names are only in the Qur'an.

For example, according to the Qur'an, the Noah's Trance is not universal but territorial, and is intended for a single assembly.

For example, the Spirit is the revelation.

Jesus is only a prophet.

Wealth is good.

The world of the Hereafter is at least as big as our universe.
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Old 10th October 2017, 11:58 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not recall any verses in the Quran about 7 universes. There is a verse about 7 heavens and about 7 oceans, but I would like you to quote a verse that says anything about other universes.
I told them in my Turkish spelling. The skies are universes. Of course, you are misrepresenting the expression that your human script is incomplete and misrepresented in the Gospels.

Seven words tell the Arabic not only the seven digits, but also many.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Koran only gives correct information.
The Quran says that an ant talked and king Solomon heard it at verse 27.18

But ants don't talk do they? they communicate with each other by chemical smells.

The Quran says the stars are missiles to throw at devils at verse 67.5

Does this sound like correct information to you?
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:09 PM   #45
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Emre, I have yet to find a Muslim who can explain how a story about Jesus childhood from a book of fables could have got into the Quran, Maybe you can answer it.


The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life. Yet there are two verses in the Quran about this incident.
See Quran surah 3.49 and 5.110
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Koran only gives correct information.

Do you have any evidence for this statement?

Christians believe the Christian bible is correct. Muslims, the Koran.

What evidence is there that one of them is the right one?
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The Quran says that an ant talked and king Solomon heard it at verse 27.18

But ants don't talk do they? they communicate with each other by chemical smells.

The Quran says the stars are missiles to throw at devils at verse 67.5

Does this sound like correct information to you?
1- Ants using sounds too.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/...ts-are-talking

2- In the meantime, I would like to share my remarks in the light of the Qur'an about how the universes were created together (in Turkish):

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/20...revrenler.html


And this link is explained in the verses I mentioned in my study; The fact that stars are shooting light / flames may now be discovered / displayed:

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/201...475783632/ph2/

If you read the whole of the Qur'an, you will see that the stars shooting fire/light 'cannonballs' into space

You should also read it in a good translation.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 10th October 2017 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Emre, I have yet to find a Muslim who can explain how a story about Jesus childhood from a book of fables could have got into the Quran, Maybe you can answer it.


The Christians have confused the facts with the occasions.

By the way, they do not even know when Jesus lived. They know it wrong.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
https://www.upi.com/Science_News/201...475783632/ph2/

If you read the whole of the Qur'an, you will see that the stars shooting fire/light 'cannonballs' into space
I have read the Quran 3 times since 9/11/01 for the purpose of trying to understand why a group of men would crash planes into the world trade center.

I do not recall any verse that says stars shoot cannonballs into space.
I have read verse 67.5 which says the stars are missile to throw at devils.

I have the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali and N.J. Darwood translations
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 10th October 2017, 12:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Christians have confused the facts with the occasions.

By the way, they do not even know when Jesus lived. They know it wrong.

I don't see that as an explanation of how there are two verses in the Quran stating that Jesus gave life to a clay bird when he was a boy. This story is known to be from a book of fables. So it can hardly be a message from God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 10th October 2017, 01:09 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post


I have the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali and N.J. Darwood translations
Those translations are partially wrong.

You must find Edip Yuksel's translation.

And You should also read other verses about this subject.

Example:

Al Jinn

8. ´And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

9. ´We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.



Saffat

6. We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-

7. (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil

8. (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,

9. Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,

10. Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

***

lower heaven = our universe

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 10th October 2017 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 10th October 2017, 06:29 PM   #52
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Old 11th October 2017, 12:23 AM   #53
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[quote=Emre_1974tr;12027894]
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you read the bible you will find it very familiar, because QUOTE]

Because the Gospels in your hand contain some parts of the original Bible. Of course most are faulty.

The Koran only gives correct information.

Short or long narration is not important, it is important to give true and true knowledge.

Real events and names are only in the Qur'an.

For example, according to the Qur'an, the Noah's Trance is not universal but territorial, and is intended for a single assembly.

For example, the Spirit is the revelation.

Jesus is only a prophet.

Wealth is good.

The world of the Hereafter is at least as big as our universe.
How did you figure out all of that is true!
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:36 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Those translations are partially wrong.

You must find Edip Yuksel's translation.
Wow, thanks Emre - I didn't realise Muslim's had finally agreed on a good translation - you should probably tell the rest of the Muslim world, because it seems to me there is LOTS of disagreement on this point.

Could you please enlighten us on how you learned this is the best translation, because none of the links I could find actually agree with you...

https://www.religiousforums.com/thre...slation.82275/

https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-b...n-of-the-Quran

http://www.meforum.org/717/assessing...s-of-the-quran
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you read the bible you will find it very familiar, because
Because the Gospels in your hand contain some parts of the original Bible. Of course most are faulty.

The Koran only gives correct information.
The Gospels are part] of the New Testament. The rest of Scorpion's post, which you snipped, only contains examples of stories from the Old Testament. Did you snip that on purpose or are you that oblivious about the composition of the Bible?

My take on it is that it's all myth or legend. Only the part about the Two Kingdoms contains some verifiable history, and then with a heavy religio-political agenda from Jahwists, so that it's better to rely on chronicles from Assyrians, Babylonians and other outsiders to know what really happened.

So, if the Quran references a myth that comes from the Old Testament, i.e., one that's over a thousand years old, it only distorts a story that didn't happen in the first place, or that was based on a true story but distorted so much that the underlying story is not recognizable anymore.

And the same holds for stories about Jesus (Isa for you) from the New Testament. All made up long after the fact. Scholars of the New Testament cannot agree on more than that he was a wandering preacher who got crucified.

Finally, for reference here's Scorpion's complete post you replied to:
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you read the bible you will find it very familiar, because most of the Quran is stolen from the bible.

For example the bible old testament has what are obviously Jewish myths, like Jonah being swallowed by a whale, and being spat up on a beach alive. There is also Noah's ark and the flood, and Moses parting the red sea.

All these stories appear in the Quran which claims them as history, when they are obviously just myths.

The Quran drops the names of bible characters all through it and has very little narrative. Surah 12 is clearly and obviously a half remembered rambling account of the story of Joseph in the bible.
Surah 12 is completely incomprehensible if you have not already read the story in Genesis in the bible. Surah 12 leaves out essential details of the story which means it makes no sense. The account in Genesis is four times longer than the Qurans rambling edited version of the story.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:55 AM   #56
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I just read surah 12 "Yusuf", in a German translation (published by Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat). I don't find it incomprehensible, just underwhelming and incomplete. It's missing the setup and the continuation, and the story itself has an plot of arbitrary schemings. Not sure what the lesson is here, really.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:25 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I just read surah 12 "Yusuf", in a German translation (published by Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat). I don't find it incomprehensible, just underwhelming and incomplete. It's missing the setup and the continuation, and the story itself has an plot of arbitrary schemings. Not sure what the lesson is here, really.
Here is a piece on surah 12 I wrote a few years ago.


Having compared the bible story of Joseph in the bibles Genesis with the Quran, I can just about follow the story as described in surah 12. But as far as I can see, anyone who did not know the Genesis story could not possibly make sense of the tale of Joseph, as told in the Quran.

In the bible books of Genesis from chapter thirty seven to chapter fifty. the entire fourteen chapters are about Joseph. There are four hundred and fifty verses about the story in the bible, but in the quran surah 12 there are only one hundred and eleven verses.

The quranic version of the bible story of Joseph is a mumbling, incoherent, ill considered, and inaccurate muddle, and it does not even tell you who Joseph is. It just launches into Josephs dream at verse 4, after three verses that attempt to explain the story is being revealed in Arabic, presumably to make it available to Arabs.

The entire surah is peppered with completely unnecessary references to Allah which clutter the narrative, if you can call it a narrative. Because the bible story is clear and lucid, and rich in detail, and it has a comprehensible flow to it.


Surah 12.4 launches into a description of Josephs dream, with no explanation of who he is or how many brothers he has. What is more the dream described is the second of two dreams that are told in Genesis. But the entire point of the dream is that the eleven stars bowing down to Joseph are his eleven brothers. Genesis explains Josephs family tree so you can realize this, but the Quran says nothing about the matter. The Genesis story also says that Jacob made a coat of many colours for Joseph, and that is why his brothers were jealous of him, but the quran gives no reason or motives for Josephs brothers to hate him. Nor does it explain that Joseph has one other brother named Benjamin who had the same mother as himself, but the other ten brothers are step brothers. Nor does surah 12 explain this issue at any time, including when Joseph sends for him from Egypt.

So when Josephs brothers state at surah 12.8 When they said:" Verily Joseph and his brother are dearer to our father than we are, many though we be. Lo! our father is in plain aberration":
This makes absolutely no sense whatever to anyone that has not read the full account in Genesis.

Later in the story Joseph is put in power in Egypt, but surah 12 says nothing about him filling the granaries for seven years, it simply changes the subject to when his brothers amble into Egypt to trade, (surah 12.58) and it does not explain they are there because it is now during the seven years of famine. Then Joseph ask his brothers to send for a brother of who is a son of their father, this again makes no sense without an explanation of the family background.

How much more obvious can it be that the Quran is plagiarism, and it was taken from the Bible and other earlier sources. It is clear to me that Muhammad probably had Genesis read to him and surah 12 is his half remembered rehash of the story of Joseph.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:48 AM   #58
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Yes, great and fitting summary! Like I said, one can comprehend Surah 12, but the setup is missing. One gets that the brothers have a grudge against Yusuf, but not why. One gets that, in the end, Yusuf is in a position of wealth and power relative to his brother, and there is a brief mention that the Egyptian king gave him an office and that he was set over the "treasure chambers" (German: "Schatzkammern"). But the circumstances of the brothers' visit remain opaque. One can guess them, perhaps.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:40 AM   #59
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[quote=Oystein;12028642]
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
How did you figure out all of that is true!
Easy silly, His chosen book says so.
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:12 PM   #60
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We know how the world was created.

Odin and his brothers slew Ymir the Frost Giant and set about constructing the world from his corpse. They made the oceans from his blood, the soil from his skin and muscles, vegetation from his hair, clouds from his brains, and the sky from his skull.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:34 PM   #61
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If you read the Qur'an in its entirety, you will see that it gives all the details and correct datas about Joseph.

The Hadith books give you a story that is filled with false information. The Gospels in your hand are human writing books of hadith.

The books of hadith consist of many pages and long stories because human beings consist of the fabrication. Just like the fake Bible and the Torah you have.

Again, the only holy book we have is the Quran now.

And real life stories and real names are written only in the Qur'an. It is important to give true knowledge, not short or long description.

Only the Qur'an gives the true life story of Jesus Christ too. For example, it is the only source that tells us that the crucifixion is not stretched.

Only the Qur'an gives the true life story of Jesus Christ too. For example, it is the only source that tells us that the crucifixion is not stretched.

It is the only source that tells you there are no ghosts.

On the other hand, books about ghosts and a lot gods are long and numerous. Like your Bibles...

Regards.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 11th October 2017 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
If you read the Qur'an in its entirety, you will see that it gives all the details and correct datas about Joseph.
...
How do you know that? Real question. How can you corroborate the Yusuf story? Of course you can't. You take it on blind faith.

Surah 12 is an underwhelming, incomplete story that makes little sense and teaches nothing.
The Bible at least has an internally consistent, beautifully crafted story and a message.
Of course the Bible is all wrong - the story is of course invented; there never was an exile in Egypt of the sons of Israel, as there never was an Exodus.
But at least it's a good story.
The Quran story is both an untrue invention AND a bad story.

And by the way: You are breaking through open doors here with your claim that there are no ghosts and spirits. Most here agree with you.
We are one ghost ahead of you though: We realize that the ghost you call Allah also does not exist.
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Old 11th October 2017, 08:18 PM   #63
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Here's a problem with the age of the Earth.

Imagine someone you don't know has put a bowl of random cake mix in the oven and left it cooking. You walk by later and decide it can be taken out because you think it is now ready to eat. So some questions:

1) Exactly when did the cake start cooking? What information do you need to determine your answer? Be as precise as you can.

2) When did the cake finish cooking? Exactly the time you walked by? Ten seconds before that? Thirty seconds before that? It could have cooked for longer maybe? Be as precise as you can.

Go!
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Those translations are partially wrong.

You must find Edip Yuksel's translation.

And You should also read other verses about this subject.

Example:

Al Jinn

8. ´And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

9. ´We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.



Saffat

6. We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-

7. (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil

8. (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,

9. Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,

10. Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.

***

lower heaven = our universe
You two are arguing about the color of fairy dust. Prove any supernatural being exists and then tie that being to your hack rag. Just because it's in your holy book doesn't make it true.

Gods don't exist and Mohammed was a false prophet.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:18 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
It is the only source that tells you there are no ghosts.
But it does tell you there are genies and winged horses.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:36 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Those translations are partially wrong.
The question is: is what is written accurate? And the only way to answer is to confirm its claims by other sources.

Ants don't speak human languages or any language at all. Stars aren't missiles.

There.
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:15 AM   #67
Hungry81
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
If you read the Qur'an in its entirety, you will see that it gives all the details and correct datas about Joseph.

The Hadith books give you a story that is filled with false information. The Gospels in your hand are human writing books of hadith.

The books of hadith consist of many pages and long stories because human beings consist of the fabrication. Just like the fake Bible and the Torah you have.

Again, the only holy book we have is the Quran now.

And real life stories and real names are written only in the Qur'an. It is important to give true knowledge, not short or long description.

Only the Qur'an gives the true life story of Jesus Christ too. For example, it is the only source that tells us that the crucifixion is not stretched.

Only the Qur'an gives the true life story of Jesus Christ too. For example, it is the only source that tells us that the crucifixion is not stretched.

It is the only source that tells you there are no ghosts.

On the other hand, books about ghosts and a lot gods are long and numerous. Like your Bibles...

Regards.
Every time I try to read the koran I get bored by the rambling insecurities in the first pages. It goes on and on about how it is the perfect word of Allah and if you don't see that you are wrong... because... and if someone else says it isn't they are wrong just because and blah blah blah blah blah. When a book starts off defending itself before you get to the real content then its not worth reading.
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:26 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Every time I try to read the koran I get bored by the rambling insecurities in the first pages. It goes on and on about how it is the perfect word of Allah and if you don't see that you are wrong... because... and if someone else says it isn't they are wrong just because and blah blah blah blah blah. When a book starts off defending itself before you get to the real content then its not worth reading.
We clearly need a condensed "Cut to the Chase" version of the Quran!
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:32 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
We clearly need a condensed "Cut to the Chase" version of the Quran!
1:1: "God made stuff happen. Live with it. Tell others."
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:59 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
1:1: "God made stuff happen*. Live with it. Tell others."
*Some people think god made stuff happen, other people think otherwise. Live with it. Don't bother trying to tell others, they're probably not listening.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:34 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Hadith books give you a story that is filled with false information. The Gospels in your hand are human writing books of hadith.

The books of hadith consist of many pages and long stories because human beings consist of the fabrication. Just like the fake Bible and the Torah you have.
Anything you write is outside the Quran; therefore it is human writing; therefore it is fabrication.

Do please squirm off that hook.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
We clearly need a condensed "Cut to the Chase" version of the Quran!
The Quran not only wastes verses trying to justify itself, it is extremely repetitive. If you removed all the repetitive verses it would reduce the Quran by half. It then has the gall to say nobody could write a surah like it.

Not the words of God, unless God is semi literate.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:30 PM   #73
Emre_1974tr
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You Christians are aware that the Quran is the only perfect book and you are working on it.

Even in this forum, Christian missionaries are trying to prevent the spread of Islam by using different masks.

They promote themselves as if they are not Christians.

Such strategies must be followed because they are desperate in front of the perfection of the Qur'an.

They introduce themselves as members of another teaching.

This is a sufficient proof of the supremacy of Islam.

So you have to play such games Scorpion.

Peace

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 12th October 2017 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:56 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You Christians are aware that the Quran is the only perfect book and you are working on it.

Even in this forum, Christian missionaries are trying to prevent the spread of Islam by using different masks.

They promote themselves as if they are not Christians.
...
Who are you talking about? I am not aware of any Christians in this thread.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:05 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You Christians are aware that the Quran is the only perfect book and you are working on it.

Even in this forum, Christian missionaries are trying to prevent the spread of Islam by using different masks.

They promote themselves as if they are not Christians.

Such strategies must be followed because they are desperate in front of the perfection of the Qur'an.

They introduce themselves as members of another teaching.

This is a sufficient proof of the supremacy of Islam.

So you have to play such games Scorpion.

Peace
I'm no xtian and your book of fairy tales isn't any different from any other religions favorite book of fairy tales.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:18 PM   #76
Peregrinus
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You Christians are aware that the Quran is the only perfect book and you are working on it.
An unevidenced generality leading to an absurd claim.

Quote:
Even in this forum, Christian missionaries are trying to prevent the spread of Islam by using different masks.
Name one.

Quote:
They promote themselves as if they are not Christians.
Another unevidenced claim.

Quote:
Such strategies must be followed because they are desperate in front of the perfection of the Qur'an.
Project much? The desperate one is yourself. (Hilite added.)

Quote:
They introduce themselves as members of another teaching.
You contradict yourself; see above.

Quote:
This is a sufficient proof of the supremacy of Islam.
Your unevidenced assertions prove no such thing.
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:18 PM   #77
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Does this guy actually believe that we are actually Christians, merely pretending to be atheists so we can... well, I don't actually know what the purpose would be!
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:55 PM   #78
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Scorpion has explicitly stated in other threads that he/she is a Christian who is on a mission to persuade Moslems to abandon their religion, which he/she considers evil. So the OP is correct about one of the contributors to this thread.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 12th October 2017 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:22 AM   #79
Hungry81
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You Christians are aware that the Quran is the only perfect book and you are working on it.

Even in this forum, Christian missionaries are trying to prevent the spread of Islam by using different masks.

They promote themselves as if they are not Christians.

Such strategies must be followed because they are desperate in front of the perfection of the Qur'an.

They introduce themselves as members of another teaching.

This is a sufficient proof of the supremacy of Islam.

So you have to play such games Scorpion.

Peace
Nope, Grims fairy tales, 1001 Arabian nights and Aesops fables are better written and more entertaining and thus closer to perfection than the Quran or bible.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:40 AM   #80
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Scorpion has explicitly stated in other threads that he/she is a Christian who is on a mission to persuade Moslems to abandon their religion, which he/she considers evil. So the OP is correct about one of the contributors to this thread.
I am a he, and I don't remember claiming to be a Christian. I may have said I regard Jesus and the Buddha as great spiritual teachers, and I regard Muhammad as an outright false prophet and liar. But if I am to be classified as anything it would be a spiritualist.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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