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Old 12th October 2017, 09:47 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Discussing with equanimity may not be rationality but will be truth. It is very difficult to achieve it. You get many oppositions and sufferings by opting it because most people like rationals not truths. However, in heart and on ultimate it wins. If this is preaching, then ok for me.
Even if you're preaching it would be better to be right than wrong, and if you cannot tell the difference or have not the courage to acknowledge it your preaching will fail. So far the record is not very good, is it?
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:36 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Ok, potent? Why we can't be result oriented/based?
Because you cannot make your own rules.

Hans
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:06 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Nature had maintained since long even without unnature.
category error, if what animals do is natural, humans are animals, what humans do is natural...
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Old 12th October 2017, 02:54 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Some plants clearly show sense of touch. I think, they also feel vibrations. Sunlight affect on them and moving towards sunlight soure, roots towards water/nutrient source should suggest they have sense for life.
Um, maybe you should define your vague term 'sense of life', does water evaporating from a pan have a sense of life?
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Old 12th October 2017, 03:03 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Some plants clearly show sense of touch. I think, they also feel vibrations. Sunlight affect on them and moving towards sunlight soure, roots towards water/nutrient source should suggest they have sense for life.
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. You're reading cognition into autonomic response.
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I think, there is no autonomic mechanism in plants.

No, Kumar, when I wrote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I've just tried to explain that photons have zero rest mass to a cabbage, and it understood the concept at least as well as you do.
I did not mean that the cabbage was capable of cognition.
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Old 12th October 2017, 03:07 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Why we can't be result oriented/based?

We can. You can't, because you persistently ignore actual results in favour of your unsupported conjectures.
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Old 12th October 2017, 03:51 PM   #327
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Kumar, here's a bit of a thing to chew on.

I mentioned before that a bee, when it stings, disembowels itself and dies. And yet, I think it safe to say that bees are not idiots. They are bees, and bees, like many animals, do not think as we do, do not have our values, and if there were anything that a person mistakenly thinking his metaphors have ontological importance might call values, they would be those of the hive and of the species.

Why might that not be true of other animals too? Take cows for example. It is true, of course, that we eat cows, but are they fools for coming back to the barn? There are many many many more cows living and mating and eating and sheltered from the rain than there ever were wild cows. In fact there were no wild cows, only aurochs, and they are extinct. You, in you human-centric way, say cows are the fools but cows as a species are flourishing, but the aurochs, even more than the flower fed buffaloes of the spring, roar no more and trundle no more.

This is, of course, a little bit facetious because I think your whole argument and attitude are so far from reasonable that they are immune to reasonable argument, but why not think a bit about the bargain here? The death of individual cows matters only if cows value individuality, but who is to say they do? Bees and ants, it seems, do not. What cows have you interviewed to substantiate your point of view? Thinking in terms of the species-wide, or even the herd-wide bargain, the cows are doing pretty well.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:42 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. By "preaching" I mean you're just spewing your uninformed and clearly absurd opinion and calling it truth. Truth requires proof, which you simply do not have. You relied upon people like PETA to indoctrinate you into a moral view that's simply not based on fact. What you're doing has nothing to do with truth. It has everything to do with trying to foist your private morality on other people. That's what the worst religions do, and they have nothing to do with truth.
Unless absolute and complete, truth also has multiplicity in POVs or non-absolutism. Under it, truth of one may not be valid on truth of other. We should try to make truth absolute & complete. I didn't based PETA in that quote but based logic in that. It can also be possible, one aspect of anyone is true but other odd. Nature has not naturally given us hunting, killing and directly digesting mechanisms which can suggest, opting it may not be natural to humans. It is quite logical so can be made a basis for truth. Accordingly, we can not deny PETA was not true in it. To me, one truth of anyone still hold value for me even he tell lie in all others. I am not marrying with them. Whatever good in anyone we can take that and leave bad.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:45 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Because you cannot make your own rules.

Hans
Yes, not for others unless has authority but we can accept common understandings.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:47 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes, not for others unless has authority but we can accept common understandings.
You're not relying on common understanding. You're making crap up.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:48 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
category error, if what animals do is natural, humans are animals, what humans do is natural...
No. We can atleast learn naturality from them who are living in & following nature.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:51 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Um, maybe you should define your vague term 'sense of life', does water evaporating from a pan have a sense of life?
How water will be getting life from its evaporation? A plant moving towards sunlight or towards nutrient souce will be getting life--so having sense of life.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:55 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
We can. You can't, because you persistently ignore actual results in favour of your unsupported conjectures.
I am not ignoring that children commonly do always grow so they are more intelligent or potent. It is result based statement.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:55 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Unless absolute and complete, truth also has multiplicity in POVs or non-absolutism.
No. That's the opposite of truth.

Quote:
I didn't based PETA in that quote but based logic in that...
No, there was no logic in what you wrote. You reproduced a few facts from Wikipedia and then said PETA disagreed, and decided to side with them. You cited them as your authority on morality and fact, without doing the least bit of due diligence about them and their position.

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Accordingly, we can not deny PETA was not true in it.
And here you are, back defending PETA. Make up your mind.

Quote:
To me, one truth of anyone still hold value for me even he tell lie in all others. I am not marrying with them. Whatever good in anyone we can take that and leave bad.
You haven't shown that what PETA said is true. In fact you had previously cited facts that they disagreed with, then said you agreed with PETA over a more objective analysis. You are most certainly "marrying with them." You defend them at every turn and selectively look the other way when we talk about their immoral and borderline criminal behavior. As long as you keep citing PETA as your moral foundation, I will continue to hold you to the fire.

You asked me why people still contributed to PETA given their egregious behavior. Well look in the mirror, buddy. People like you keep them in business -- people who are willing to be told what to believe and to ignore all their evil.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:57 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
How water will be getting life from its evaporation? A plant moving towards sunlight or towards nutrient souce will be getting life--so having sense of life.
No, you're simply not getting the point. Autonomic cause-and-effect behavior is not at all the same as cognition. You've really drunk deep from the PETA Kool-Aid. Just because two things are both alive doesn't mean they have the same level of cognitive capacity or emotional expression.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:58 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You're not relying on common understanding. You're making crap up.
Yes true. I often loose rationality for getting/interpreting the truth. My even or odd.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:59 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes true. I often loose rationality for getting/interpreting the truth. My even or odd.
This makes zero sense.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:16 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. That's the opposite of truth.
I feel, my this post, posted previously in other thread, will explain it;

"MPOVs, even true, can be there in anything which is not yet A&F. E.g. To a Alphonso mango tree, you are still right to call it a green tree, a big tree, a shady tree, a fruit tree, a mango tree, with mistaken vision or in dim light--a small mountain, a ghost, in selfish interest--an Asoka tree etc. Unless you say it an alphanso tree, nothing can be clear in A&F. You can not draw its figure unless Alphonso tree is told. This way, MPOvs or non-absolutism, partial truth, conditional prediction and selfishness work. "Half (non A&F)truth is often a great lie".




Quote:
No, there was no logic in what you wrote. You reproduced a few facts from Wikipedia and then said PETA disagreed, and decided to side with them. You cited them as your authority on morality and fact, without doing the least bit of due diligence about them and their position.
Pls limit to first PETA quote. Rest all is response to subsequent discussions.



Quote:
And here you are, back defending PETA. Make up your mind.
I neither defend nor oppose to anyone, I simply base of substance not of entity.



Quote:
You haven't shown that what PETA said is true. In fact you had previously cited facts that they disagreed with, then said you agreed with PETA over a more objective analysis. You are most certainly "marrying with them." You defend them at every turn and selectively look the other way when we talk about their immoral and borderline criminal behavior. As long as you keep citing PETA as your moral foundation, I will continue to hold you to the fire.
You are just trying to spark or put fire without fuel.

Quote:
You asked me why people still contributed to PETA given their egregious behavior. Well look in the mirror, buddy. People like you keep them in business -- people who are willing to be told what to believe and to ignore all their evil.
One very senior and well experienced big personality told: "Economic upgradation can lead to moral degradation". Most of the time vested interests can resist morality and make anyone to argue in that favor.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:19 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
This makes zero sense.
In preferring for a strong and heavy metal(truth) car one can be devoid of its latest features(rationality).
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:23 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
In preferring for a strong and heavy metal(truth) car one can be devoid of its latest features(rationality).
Gibberish. Please learn English.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:23 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, you're simply not getting the point. Autonomic cause-and-effect behavior is not at all the same as cognition. You've really drunk deep from the PETA Kool-Aid. Just because two things are both alive doesn't mean they have the same level of cognitive capacity or emotional expression.
Sorry, it is beyond my understanding.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:32 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I feel, my this post, posted previously in other thread, will explain it...
It doesn't. It's just another pile of your typical gibberish. In the post to which I responded you were literally claiming that preaching the truth sometimes makes you irrational. I don't need to belabor the inherent contradiction in that statement.

Quote:
Pls limit to first PETA quote. Rest all is response to subsequent discussions.
No, I will not limit my rebuttal only to the parts you want to take responsibility for. Your entire approach to PETA -- including your irrational and deceptive defense of them -- is all on the table.

Quote:
I neither defend nor oppose to anyone, I simply base of substance not of entity.
You are clearly defending PETA and have been for some time. Even when you pretended to distance yourself from them, you had to soften it.

Quote:
You are just trying to spark or put fire without fuel.
No, I spelled out things PETA has done and said that PETA does not dispute. You're so eager to defend them you have presupposed that they must be lies or spin.

Quote:
One very senior and well experienced big personality told: "Economic upgradation can lead to moral degradation". Most of the time vested interests can resist morality and make anyone to argue in that favor.
Your morality is simply absurd. Most of it you borrowed from PETA without realizing how immoral most of the knowledgeable people consider them to be, and the rest is just patent nonsense like pretending plants can think and therefore deserve protection from our "greed and luxury." Your claims are being opposed because they're self-evident crap, not because your critics are biased.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:33 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Sorry, it is beyond my understanding.
Clearly.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:42 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Kumar, here's a bit of a thing to chew on.

I mentioned before that a bee, when it stings, disembowels itself and dies. And yet, I think it safe to say that bees are not idiots. They are bees, and bees, like many animals, do not think as we do, do not have our values, and if there were anything that a person mistakenly thinking his metaphors have ontological importance might call values, they would be those of the hive and of the species.

Why might that not be true of other animals too? Take cows for example. It is true, of course, that we eat cows, but are they fools for coming back to the barn? There are many many many more cows living and mating and eating and sheltered from the rain than there ever were wild cows. In fact there were no wild cows, only aurochs, and they are extinct. You, in you human-centric way, say cows are the fools but cows as a species are flourishing, but the aurochs, even more than the flower fed buffaloes of the spring, roar no more and trundle no more.

This is, of course, a little bit facetious because I think your whole argument and attitude are so far from reasonable that they are immune to reasonable argument, but why not think a bit about the bargain here? The death of individual cows matters only if cows value individuality, but who is to say they do? Bees and ants, it seems, do not. What cows have you interviewed to substantiate your point of view? Thinking in terms of the species-wide, or even the herd-wide bargain, the cows are doing pretty well.
Good writing. Simply:

Whether bees prefer that by their own will/nature and Cows get that by their own will/nature? Whether a person is nursing and saving cows is to give service to them or to increase his profits/values in selfish commercial interests? Suppose for example, if we have to opt either living like a bee or like that cows, what we shall prefer?
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:49 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It doesn't. It's just another pile of your typical gibberish. In the post to which I responded you were literally claiming that preaching the truth sometimes makes you irrational. I don't need to belabor the inherent contradiction in that statement.



No, I will not limit my rebuttal only to the parts you want to take responsibility for. Your entire approach to PETA -- including your irrational and deceptive defense of them -- is all on the table.



You are clearly defending PETA and have been for some time. Even when you pretended to distance yourself from them, you had to soften it.



No, I spelled out things PETA has done and said that PETA does not dispute. You're so eager to defend them you have presupposed that they must be lies or spin.



Your morality is simply absurd. Most of it you borrowed from PETA without realizing how immoral most of the knowledgeable people consider them to be, and the rest is just patent nonsense like pretending plants can think and therefore deserve protection from our "greed and luxury." Your claims are being opposed because they're self-evident crap, not because your critics are biased.
"preaching the truth sometimes makes you irrational" yes it is true. Rest all is just your overestimation and over expression like fire without fuel. Many time, some thinking can match with others unintentionally, does not mean, we are supporting, favoring etc them intentionally. Sorry Bye.
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:00 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
"preaching the truth sometimes makes you irrational" yes it is true.
No, it's contradictory on its face.

Quote:
Rest all is just your overestimation and over expression like fire without fuel.
This makes no sense.

I have presented you with facts you clearly cannot cope with. You tried to deny them. You tried to supplant them with made-up crap. You tried to say they didn't matter. These are all excuses for your failure to address the real world. This is not my problem or any of your critics' problem. This is your problem.

Quote:
Many time, some thinking can match with others unintentionally, does not mean, we are supporting, favoring etc them intentionally. Sorry Bye.
Gibberish. Seriously take an English class. If you're going to spend so much time conversing with people, you need to learn the language you're conversing in.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:07 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, it's contradictory on its face.
It is true. Travel by walking id basic truth. But today, practicing only it, is irrational.



Quote:
This makes no sense.

I have presented you with facts you clearly cannot cope with. You tried to deny them. You tried to supplant them with made-up crap. You tried to say they didn't matter. These are all excuses for your failure to address the real world. This is not my problem or any of your critics' problem. This is your problem.

.
It is upto you to agree or not. But however, if you will go on impressing me that my views matches with PETA views, I shall say, grouping or common thinking exist in nature(like 12 signs/groups suggested in astrology) so I shall go deep inti PETA affairs and will thank you for provoking me,if note that their views are really good and natural.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:08 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
........Gibberish. Seriously take an English class. If you're going to spend so much time conversing with people, you need to learn the language you're conversing in.
And yet, when it suits him, Kumar is capable of writing coherent, perfectly normal English. The uncharitable might think that the gibberish style was part of the weaponry.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:12 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Good writing. Simply:

Whether bees prefer that by their own will/nature and Cows get that by their own will/nature?........
You really haven't been following, have you.

Why don't you go away and read "The Selfish Gene", then revisit this discussion. You'll find yourself laughing at some of your own assumptions and errors, even if you manage to only absorb 5% of the book's lessons.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:29 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
One very senior and well experienced big personality told: "Economic upgradation can lead to moral degradation".

Who was this "very senior and well experienced big personality"? The only hit Google gives for that phrase is this thread.

Quote:
Most of the time vested interests can resist morality and make anyone to argue in that favor.

What is your vested interest in vegetarianism?
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:30 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Who was this "very senior and well experienced big personality"? The only hit Google gives for that phrase is this thread.




What is your vested interest in vegetarianism?
You may not find my things on internet. Still
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&so...kTCjHV&ampcf=1
Some one that time had interpreted above as I mentioned. Sense is same.
To me, all violence and cruelty is odd. May it be for veg or non veg. Didnt you yet noted it? Surprising. Had you gone through my thread, Fruits?
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:53 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
You may not find my things on internet.

Who is this "very senior and well experienced big personality" that you are invoking as an authority?

ETA: I see you edited the post to add a link while I was posting, but the quotation doesn't actually appear there.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:03 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
To me, all violence and cruelty is odd. May it be for veg or non veg. Didnt you yet noted it? Surprising. Had you gone through my thread, Fruits?

What evidence do you have that anyone else here has a vested interest?
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:54 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
What evidence do you have that anyone else here has a vested interest?
If you are sleeping, I can't wake you up. Anyway, limit to topic.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:59 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Who is this "very senior and well experienced big personality" that you are invoking as an authority?

ETA: I see you edited the post to add a link while I was posting, but the quotation doesn't actually appear there.
If you can not understand the sense, I can not argue with you. Stop arguing TTTT and concentrate on subject. While moving ahead, yes, few bounces are relaxing so maintainable but not all times.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:06 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You really haven't been following, have you.

Why don't you go away and read "The Selfish Gene", then revisit this discussion. You'll find yourself laughing at some of your own assumptions and errors, even if you manage to only absorb 5% of the book's lessons.
Quote:
From the gene-centred view, it follows that the more two individuals are genetically related, the more sense (at the level of the genes) it makes for them to behave selflessly with each other.

A lineage is expected to evolve to maximise its inclusive fitness—the number of copies of its genes passed on globally (rather than by a particular individual). As a result, populations will tend towards an evolutionarily stable strategy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
Is it the essence of this thought? Then what do you want to tell?
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:08 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If you can not understand the sense, I can not argue with you.
I will bounce this on right back to you, Kumar. You don't understand the responses here, you don't understand the links you post, I even suspect you don't always know what your own posts actually mean.

Hans
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:21 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Is it the essence of this thought? Then what do you want to tell?
What do I want to tell? Go away and educate yourself, and stop the nonsensical anthropomorphising. That's what.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:24 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What do I want to tell? Go away and educate yourself, and stop the nonsensical anthropomorphising. That's what.
If you can not tell, why have you asked me?
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:26 AM   #360
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What are you whittering on about? I haven't asked you anything.
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