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Tags 2016 elections , Clinton controversies , hillary clinton , James Comey , presidential candidates

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Old 9th October 2017, 01:46 PM   #3081
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
People don't like watching upper-classers keep getting given more & more upper-class stuff,... And they don't like having the same person pushed at them over & over year after year
People who think that reality is being 'pushed' at them are morons.

Clinton was the best that Democrats had, so why wouldn't they run her again? Or do you think they should have done the same as Republicans - serve up 17 flawed candidates, none of whom was worth voting for? What a farce that turned out to be...
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Old 9th October 2017, 02:09 PM   #3082
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There are some points in your last couple of posts that would be worth discussing, on their own, but the way you mixed them in with your collection of misrepresentations of what I said makes it clear that trying to actually discuss anything with you is not worth the bother.

Last edited by Delvo; 9th October 2017 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 11th October 2017, 03:41 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
1/ Including third party candidates, 54% of voters wanted somebody other than Trump. So a majority of voters did not get what they voted for. And almost half of eligible voters stayed home, so Trump was elected by only around a quarter of all Americans who could have voted. Not quite a resounding mandate.
http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/eligib...tered-results/
If they choose to vote for a 3rd party knowing that there was no chance of that candidate winning, or decided not to vote, then in doing so they were declaring that they didn't care which candidate won. So as such they got what they were wanting too, because they didn't care enough. If they can't be bothered getting involved an making sure that a candidate they want gets to the starting line, then why should anyone care about them?

Quote:
2/ If some voters made their decision based on information that was false, maliciously planted by foreign entities or anyone else, did they really have a "free choice?"
Every person has the ability to accept information without question, or to determine the truth. If they can't be bothered in verifying the information they are given, then that is their free choice as well.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:25 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Hillary problem isn't the "trumpkins'" problem. It is the Democrats problem because the lying loser will not shut up and go away.
If the loser always went away we'd have been spared a Trump presidency.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:30 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why? Her political views are largely what used to be called moderate Republican. She's intelligent, knowledgable and generally respected by foreign leaders. There's no reason to think her Cabinet and judicial appointments wouldn't be fully qualified. The vilest criticisms of Clinton are based on her personality, not policies. The fact that Putin despises her is something Americans should consider a plus.
The only possible explanation for the claim that she would be worse or terrible is partisan politics.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:32 AM   #3086
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
She was a fine candidate.
The only major drawbacks were amplified either by hyper partisan politics or Russia. She did nothing disqualifying to anyone but gullible morons.
Well, actually, one of her major problems, outside of Republican mud-slinging, was her utter lack of charisma. Of course, that doesn't make her incompetent in the least, and from what I hear she listens to advice and seeks to find common grounds with others, which is exactly what you want a President to be.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:35 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, that and the whole lying thing
Is that the hidden-to-all-but-a-select-few-who-can-see-through-her-act lying or actual lying? I ask because since the current POTUS is the biggest liar in the history of the universe I doubt it was a major factor.

Quote:
and being incompetent
That's partisan ideology talking.

Quote:
and the arrogance
Now you're just making stuff up.

Quote:
and being a racist piece of ****.


Wow, that's a good one, TDB. The one time you're going to agree with left-wing loons is when they call your favourite chew toy a racist, even though they're clearly talking nonsense. I guess it was convenient at the time.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:47 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
She put Trump there.
Yeah, it's still not the fault of people who voted for him!

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
'What she did wrong'... being a Democrat? Second name Clinton? Having the temerity to run for president?

She should have bowed out and let Sanders get the nomination. He would also have lost, but at least she wouldn't have to take this crap. Of course then people like you would blame her for not running...
Oh, sure. Right-wingers would always find a reason to blame her.

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
They had the choice to attempt to verify the information before acting on it, or simply accept it unquestioningly because it was what they wanted to believe.
Exactly. One can only blame misinformation up to a point.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Clinton was the best that Democrats had, so why wouldn't they run her again? Or do you think they should have done the same as Republicans - serve up 17 flawed candidates, none of whom was worth voting for? What a farce that turned out to be...
More than once.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:48 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Every person has the ability to accept information without question, or to determine the truth. If they can't be bothered in verifying the information they are given, then that is their free choice as well.
Picking at a scab here, but it was proffered that none of the 30,000 emails that were stored and then deleted in a manner so as to make them irretrievable contained anything other than personal matters.

How many here accept that, given that there is no longer any way to “determine the truth”?
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:21 AM   #3090
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Picking at a scab here, but it was proffered that none of the 30,000 emails that were stored and then deleted in a manner so as to make them irretrievable contained anything other than personal matters.

How many here accept that, given that there is no longer any way to “determine the truth”?
It's as reasonable to assume that is true as it is that it is false. Thus, we can probably just stop talking about it, given that - as you say - there is no longer a way to determine the truth. The fact that the whole email kerfuffle was straw to stoke the fires of misogynist right-wingers in their irrational hatred of Hillary is something we can now look at as history. Now we have the person who ran against her in the White House, and he's producing actual scandals on a weekly - if not daily basis; scandals which really puts the spotlight on how benign anything Hillary has done is, comparably.
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:52 AM   #3091
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's as reasonable to assume that is true as it is that it is false.
I disagree.

If there was nothing incriminating in those 30,000 emails, why not cull them and archive them? A small thumb drive in a safe deposit box or the like? Why the Bleachbit for luncheon meetings and yoga classes?

Occam would certainly point to something to hide.

And there is a pattern of behavior, not all fabricated by a vast right wing conspiracy: http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/06/us...ite-house.html
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Old 11th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #3092
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I disagree.

If there was nothing incriminating in those 30,000 emails, why not cull them and archive them?
Alternatively, there is nothing interesting in them either.

If there is nothing interesting in those 30 000 emails, why not just get rid of them?

Do you never delete worthless emails?

Occam and all that....
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:02 AM   #3093
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Alternatively, there is nothing interesting in them either.

If there is nothing interesting in those 30 000 emails, why not just get rid of them?

Do you never delete worthless emails?
Not with Bleachbit!

Question: who determined which emails were personal, and why do you assume pure motives?
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:20 AM   #3094
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I disagree.

If there was nothing incriminating in those 30,000 emails, why not cull them and archive them? A small thumb drive in a safe deposit box or the like? Why the Bleachbit for luncheon meetings and yoga classes?

Occam would certainly point to something to hide.

And there is a pattern of behavior, not all fabricated by a vast right wing conspiracy: http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/06/us...ite-house.html
I've deleted thousands of work-related e-mails and there was nothing nefarious about it.
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Old 11th October 2017, 07:23 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Not with Bleachbit!

Question: who determined which emails were personal, and why do you assume pure motives?
How do you determine emails are personal?

And why do you assume impure motives?
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:30 AM   #3096
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If there was nothing incriminating in those 30,000 emails, why not cull them and archive them? A small thumb drive in a safe deposit box or the like? Why the Bleachbit for luncheon meetings and yoga classes?
I dunno, maybe being hounded for a couple of decades by people who are quite adept at creating pseudo-scandals out of such evidence makes one a little paranoid. Pizzagate comes to mind.
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:59 AM   #3097
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The thing with emails: deleting one copy of an email does not delete all copies of the email. And every email that is sent has at least two copies. If there were nefarious emails out there they would have been found. So, you don't have to assume pure motives. Instead assume everyone is Machiavellian and note the lack of bad emails cropping up.
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Old 11th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The thing with emails: deleting one copy of an email does not delete all copies of the email. And every email that is sent has at least two copies. If there were nefarious emails out there they would have been found. So, you don't have to assume pure motives. Instead assume everyone is Machiavellian and note the lack of bad emails cropping up.
Not sure I get your point.

It would be valid if the emails showed up and there were only personal email contained therein. We could all rest easy and conclude that nothing nefarious was going on when the 30,000 were selected and deleted beyond recovery.

The fact that none of the 30,000 copies has been unearthed to date proves nothing.

Does it?
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Old 11th October 2017, 11:06 AM   #3099
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The thing with emails: deleting one copy of an email does not delete all copies of the email. And every email that is sent has at least two copies. If there were nefarious emails out there they would have been found. So, you don't have to assume pure motives. Instead assume everyone is Machiavellian and note the lack of bad emails cropping up.

Only if someone looked for them.

It isn't like anyone spent a lot of time looking. Or money.

...

...

Oh. Wait.
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Old 11th October 2017, 11:08 AM   #3100
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Not sure I get your point.

It would be valid if the emails showed up and there were only personal email contained therein. We could all rest easy and conclude that nothing nefarious was going on when the 30,000 were selected and deleted beyond recovery.

The fact that none of the 30,000 copies has been unearthed to date proves nothing.

Does it?

Do we know that none of them were unearthed?

Or only that none were unearthed which were worth reporting?
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Old 11th October 2017, 11:14 AM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Picking at a scab here, but it was proffered that none of the 30,000 emails that were stored and then deleted in a manner so as to make them irretrievable contained anything other than personal matters.

How many here accept that, given that there is no longer any way to “determine the truth”?
Many emails were recovered:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...linton-server/

https://www.recode.net/2016/7/5/1209...n-email-server

Some of them were deemed work related.

At the end of the day, after all them kerfuffle ...

Where's the smoking gun ? I know it's an argument from incredulity, but still ... every email has a sender and recipient. Where are all the damaging emails ?

ALSO ...

Where's the new, tougher rules and laws to prevent this ??

Where's the outrage over all the trumpkins using personal email, especially after having excoriated clinton ???
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Old 11th October 2017, 01:19 PM   #3102
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Not sure I get your point.

It would be valid if the emails showed up and there were only personal email contained therein. We could all rest easy and conclude that nothing nefarious was going on when the 30,000 were selected and deleted beyond recovery.
If a yoga studio has emails from Hillary discussing yoga appointments they aren't calling MSNB, Fox, or the FBI to let them know that they only need to look for 29,847 emails.

Quote:
The fact that none of the 30,000 copies has been unearthed to date proves nothing.

Does it?
How do you know that none of the 30,000 have been found? You only know that none of the 30,000 that has turned up has been salacious enough to find its way to the news.
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Old 11th October 2017, 04:56 PM   #3103
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Still on about emails?

wow.
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Old 11th October 2017, 05:08 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Still on about emails?

wow.
Yeah, but it's totally her fault because, see, she didn't go away in a dark hole somewhere, far from sight.
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Old 11th October 2017, 08:15 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah, but it's totally her fault because, see, she didn't go away in a dark hole somewhere, far from sight.

Do you really think it would have made any difference if she had?
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:05 PM   #3106
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Bill and Hillary Clinton 'haven't been speaking for months after he tossed her hand-wringing election book in the TRASH'

Originally Posted by Daily Fail
Bill and Hillary Clinton are not speaking to each other after a blazing argument over her election book, it has been claimed.

The former President threw a manuscript in the trash after Hillary ignored his advice not to publish it, according to author Ed Klein.

Bill had red-penned the book in an attempt to improve it, a friend allegedly told Klein, but flew into a rage when Hillary refused to read any of his notes.

According to Page Six, the friend said: 'He told her the book made her look bewildered, angry and confused, and that those were poor qualities in a person who aspired to be a world leader.

'He hated the title because calling it "What Happened" would only make people say, "You lost."

'He urged her to postpone the pub date and rewrite the book, but she yelled at him and said: "The book is finished and that’s how it’s going to be published".' [...]

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Old 11th October 2017, 09:23 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I disagree.

If there was nothing incriminating in those 30,000 emails, why not cull them and archive them?
This was done all the time during George W. Bush's two terms. This has been admitted to specifically by Colin Powell. How is your argument not special pleading?
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:30 PM   #3108
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Absolutely, just like

Hillary Clinton threw a lamp (or a book) at her husband in a fit of anger.

And they're getting divorced.

And she was offered a plea deal.

Last edited by barehl; 11th October 2017 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 11th October 2017, 10:17 PM   #3109
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post

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Old 12th October 2017, 05:16 AM   #3110
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
This was done all the time during George W. Bush's two terms. This has been admitted to specifically by Colin Powell. How is your argument not special pleading?
I don’t think Special Pleading applies here.

At best, you could accuse me of hypocrisy.

“But they did it, too!” does have a fallacious ring to it.

Anyone?
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:20 AM   #3111
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To defend myself from the hypocrisy charge...

We’re Bush’s emails stored on a government server? And in that case, were emails deleted via proper review by government officials?

Serious questions, because I just don’t know.

In any case, I think the differentiator might be Hillary using a private server and using private attorneys to decide which were worthy of destruction.
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“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:46 AM   #3112
Fast Eddie B
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Allow me to pull back a bit for perspective.

First, I have no doubt Hillary would have made a better president than Trump.

Second, watching "The Choice" on PBS, I was struck by how idealistic she was as a young woman. She was the type I would have gone to see speak as a college student. I believe that at her core she probably has vestiges of that idealism, and I would have liked to see her battle for her principles in what would have been a very difficult fight against a republican house and senate. In short, I don't dislike her as a person.

But...

In my opinion she fell under the sway of Bill Clinton, and ended up adopting many of his traits - traits I find distasteful whatever their source.

Certainly, one can look at any individual case: her remarkable success trading cattle futures, the loss and then timely finding of the Rose Law Firm records, the Travelgate affair, her demeaning of women who her husband victimized, all put together and see a pattern of behavior that helped frame the email controversy as something other than naive mistakes on her part. A more complete listing of Hillary "scandals" these can be found here: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a-...rticle/2562906.

Obviously, viewed through a pro-Hillary lens, these are all easily explainable and are simply being exploited by "the right". I do try to take a default position of charity. For instance, the misremembering of the Bosnia arrival I will allow for the frailty of human memory.

But, as I said, even trying to be charitable I still see a pattern of behavior - of skirting right up to, and at times over, the line of propriety - and even legality - in the furtherance of the Clinton agenda, such as it is.

Anyway, no one is truly objective - including yours truly. But I try my darnedest to be. I've tried to view Hillary's political past as objectively as I can, and the above is just a summary of why I did not vote for her. I hope it helps explain the distaste a lot of people have for, if not her personally, at least her actions.
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“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 12th October 2017 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:50 AM   #3113
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you really think it would have made any difference if she had?
Oh, I suspect they would've found an excuse to pull her out of that hole.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:56 AM   #3114
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And according to Fox News and Donald Trump himself, the Russia investigation has turned up nothing and Trump has been exonerated.
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
My thoughts exactly.

Last edited by barehl; 12th October 2017 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:57 AM   #3115
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I don’t think Special Pleading applies here.
Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.
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Old 12th October 2017, 08:59 AM   #3116
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
We’re Bush’s emails stored on a government server?
No, they routinely used private email just as Trump's staff is doing now.

Quote:
And in that case, were emails deleted via proper review by government officials?
No.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:06 AM   #3117
barehl
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
First, I have no doubt Hillary would have made a better president than Trump.
Or a trained monkey.

Quote:
In short, I don't dislike her as a person.
Too bad I can't say that about Trump.

Quote:
But, as I said, even trying to be charitable I still see a pattern of behavior - of skirting right up to, and at times over, the line of propriety - and even legality
Fortunately we don't have that problem with Trump; he doesn't recognize such a line and is still living well on the other side of it. But, that skirting...
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:35 AM   #3118
theprestige
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
Fortunately we don't have that problem with Trump; he doesn't recognize such a line and is still living well on the other side of it. But, that skirting...
I'd rather have an amateur politician and small-time crook making what little hay he can for a few years on the other side of the line, than a professional establishment politician with the experience and the connections to keep her crookery under the radar or just this side of the line. Don't worry, though, Trump won't last forever, and we'll be back to business as usual soon enough.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:41 AM   #3119
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd rather have an amateur politician and small-time crook making what little hay he can for a few years on the other side of the line, than a professional establishment politician with the experience and the connections to keep her crookery under the radar or just this side of the line. Don't worry, though, Trump won't last forever, and we'll be back to business as usual soon enough.
Small time crook?

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:48 AM   #3120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd rather have an amateur politician and small-time crook making what little hay he can for a few years on the other side of the line, than a professional establishment politician with the experience and the connections to keep her crookery under the radar or just this side of the line. Don't worry, though, Trump won't last forever, and we'll be back to business as usual soon enough.
We always knew that Hillary was in it for the long con.
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