ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cancer

Closed Thread
Old 30th October 2003, 02:27 AM   #41
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Quote:
Anyway, let me ask you again: If you are so confident homeopathy works, are you, Kumar, going to apply for the JREF test at any time? Yes or no, please. If you do not answer this question then you are simply avoiding the issue, and we will know you don't really have as much faith in homeopathy as you thought.
There is nothing to avoid in this question. I will never apply for money sake for myself due to the reason as mentioned by me. I am fully satisfied on myself about the working & therefore trying to satisfy myself 'that how homeopathic remedies work'. Curicities can lead to research or inventions or solutions. All dedicated science persons may experiance this type of cuticity & '?' marks which is to be satisfied otherwise it will go on pinching.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 02:35 AM   #42
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Deleted Double posting.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 02:50 AM   #43
Zamzara
Thinker
 
Zamzara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 162
Take a poll of users to see if it works? Is that really the best you can do? You could prove that Santa is real by taking a poll of people at a shopping mall close to Christmas. The point is: of course the users think it works, that's why they use it.

If you truly believe homeopathy works why are you afraid to test it with a rigorous impartal method, unbiased by opinion or emotion? The reason can only be because you know your opinion poll is the most advanced research you can do and still achieve the desired answer.
__________________
"You're sensing energy? How many joules?"
Zamzara is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 03:22 AM   #44
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
What about some proofs mentioned in other topics in this forum?

The person who accuse is to prove the guilt not the defence. Personally, I do not doubt about its working but want to satisfy my curicity in a logical or scientific way by putting various posibilities.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 03:29 AM   #45
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
There is nothing to avoid in this question. I will never apply for money sake for myself due to the reason as mentioned by me. I am fully satisfied on myself about the working & therefore trying to satisfy myself 'that how homeopathic remedies work'. Curicities can lead to research or inventions or solutions. All dedicated science persons may experiance this type of cuticity & '?' marks which is to be satisfied otherwise it will go on pinching.
If you prove it works you will get a lot of scientist working in this problem. You will get billions of $ of investment in finding new remidies. Surly you want this?
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 04:28 AM   #46
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870


Money only is making persons mad. Why you allways talk in this sense. I am keeping everything open, if you want to take just go ahead. You can simply take a team & visit several homeopath's clinics & confirm with the patients. If they say, yes it means it is proved, no it means not proved. When millions of people taking this treatment since long it in itself is a a sufficient proof. Why don't you do it?
Quote:
If you truly believe homeopathy works why are you afraid to test it with a rigorous impartal method, unbiased by opinion or emotion
When we can judge/prove it in a simple way of polling as mentioned, why we will go for other comlicated tests which may require so many similar sick persons, to discontinue other medications, so many healthy persons, diet restrictions etc.etc.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 04:38 AM   #47
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Money only is making persons mad. Why you allways talk in this sense.
money equal recorces surely you are not going to deny someting that you think is so import resources
I am keeping everything open, if you want to take just go ahead. You can simply take a team & visit several homeopath's clinics & confirm with the patients. If they say, yes it means it is proved, no it means not proved.

By this standard the folowing work:
1 tenpaning (drilling holes in the skull)
2 Little pink sugar pills
3 faith healing
4 Spells

Do you think all of the above work?

When millions of people taking this treatment since long it in itself is a a sufficient proof. Why don't you do it?
See above. Rember billions use conventional medcine
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 04:39 AM   #48
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

When we can judge/prove it in a simple way of polling as mentioned, why we will go for other comlicated tests which may require so many similar sick persons, to discontinue other medications, so many healthy persons, diet restrictions etc.etc.
Then test on animals (or do you find this unethical?)
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 07:33 AM   #49
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
I don't know much about other systems, but if these are practiced by billions than there should be some science & medical values in them. Faith healing particullarily can be one of the best system provided correctly practiced. It is like children keeping faith in their parents. Don't you feel that children gain something by keeping this faith in their parents. There can be some technicalities in other systems which may or may not be properly lookd due to ignorances & vested intrests by some people making those systems as contradictory & doubtful. If any system is practiced since long back then it becomes the duty of current science to go on trying to find out its technicalities insted of ridiculing it, unabling people to use the same properly & systematically. Btw, homeopathy is now a accepted & approved academic system & even allowed in big hospitals in India & some other places whereas other systems which are not yet properly standardised are not yet approved.

Homeopathy and Other Magical Belief Systems

Some of the principles of magical beliefs described above are evident in currently popular belief systems. A clear example is homeopathy. Fallacies in homeopathic claims have been discussed by many, including Barrett (1987) and Gardner (1989) in this journal; but it is curious that this healing system has not been more widely recognized as based in magical thinking....Just read intresting article at ;
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/alternative.html
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 08:10 AM   #50
CurtC
Illuminator
 
CurtC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
So let me try to summarize this thread:

Kumar: Could static electricity be responsible for the success of homeopathy?
Skeptics: What success? Homeopathy doesn't seem to work, so it's pointless to talk about possible mechanisms.
K: Sure it works - ask anyone who uses it. So what about this static electricity idea?
S: But you can't establish whether it works or not by taking a poll!
K: Just ask anyone who uses it. What about my static electricity idea?
S: If you really can show that it works, there's a million dollars waiting for you in Florida!
K: I don't need money.
S: But sureley you can find a good use for a million dollars!
K: I don't need money. What about this static electricity idea?
S: But it doesn't work! All experiments with proper controls show that!
K: Just ask anyone who uses it.

It's apparent to me that we're not having a meeting of the minds here. The gap is that Kumar maintains that if thousands of people use it, it must be effective, and we skeptics view that as so plainly, obviously untrue that we can't get imagine anyone believing that. My recommendation for this so-far frustrating thread is to try to get that one issue resolved.

Kumar, there are numerous things that thousands of people do which are ineffective. People buy magnetic bracelets for joint pain, copper bracelets for joint pain. We find a way to measure whether the treatment actually does anything, and in these cases learn that it does not. Why would you think that its popularity is proof that it works? I can't understand that.
CurtC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 08:42 AM   #51
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
CurtC ,

Thanks. But I mentioned that I have personal experiance that these works & therefore I am trying so hard to know the logic.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 09:32 AM   #52
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
CurtC ,

Thanks. But I mentioned that I have personal experiance that these works & therefore I am trying so hard to know the logic.
No you don't, you have a personal belief that these work. Have you ever done a blind study on yourself to prove that you aren't just fooling yourself? Try this: give a friend a homeopathy remedy and a placebo. Make sure you can't tell the difference just by taste. Have him randomly label one (a) and the other (b) without telling you how he labeled them. Then try the solutions, and based on whether or not you feel any positive effect, decide which one you think was the placebo and which was real. Then see if you were correct. Repeat this several times, to lower the odds of randomly picking the right answer.

If you haven't done something like this, you don't know whether or not you actually experienced ANYTHING from your homeopathic remedy. That's basic science, and it applies to medecines that DO work as well as junk science like homeopathy. No one here is going to believe your claims to have experienced it yourself if you haven't even tried something like this.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 11:50 AM   #53
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I don't know much about other systems, but if these are practiced by billions than there should be some science & medical values in them.
Even the little pink sugar pills? (the colour is important)
even drilling holes in the skull? ( not done by billions my referance to billion was to do with conventional medcine)
Faith healing particullarily can be one of the best system provided correctly practiced.

There was a recent studdy showing that prayer had no effect on heart patients.
It is like children keeping faith in their parents. Don't you feel that children gain something by keeping this faith in their parents. There can be some technicalities in other systems which may or may not be properly lookd due to ignorances & vested intrests by some people making those systems as contradictory & doubtful. If any system is practiced since long back then it becomes the duty of current science to go on trying to find out its technicalities insted of ridiculing it, unabling people to use the same properly & systematically.

Scientist want to know how everything works. But first they need to see some reason why their current explantions are incorrect. So far it has never been shown that anything other than the placebo effect is responsible for the affects of these systems

Btw, homeopathy is now a accepted & approved academic system & even allowed in big hospitals in India & some other places whereas other systems which are not yet properly standardised are not yet approved.

These decisions are made by politicians not by scientists therefore they are irrelivent to the debate as politicians are rarely qualified to make the type of judgement you are talking about.

Homeopathy and Other Magical Belief Systems

Some of the principles of magical beliefs described above are evident in currently popular belief systems. A clear example is homeopathy. Fallacies in homeopathic claims have been discussed by many, including Barrett (1987) and Gardner (1989) in this journal; but it is curious that this healing system has not been more widely recognized as based in magical thinking....Just read intresting article at ;
http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-11/alternative.html


Are you claiming that Homeopathy works by magic?
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 03:54 PM   #54
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,773
Quote:
Originally posted by geni
Are you claiming that Homeopathy works by magic?
I think that's exactly what he is claiming. CurtC missed that little digression where Kumar described homoeopathy as "other than science".

Which is why I find it so odd that he's trying to figure a scientific mode of action for it - he started a thread with the suggestion that it was "potential energy", and got fairly quickly squashed, then moved on to this static electricity game. But if it's "other than science", this is irrational.

This is completely pointless. Kumar is convinced by his own anecdotal experience that "it works". The rest of us are equally convinced both by simple logic and by reading the research literature that it doesn't work. In my own case I'm also influenced by personal experience of being taken to a homoeopath as a child and observing that there was no effect, and as an adult by my frequent personal observation that patients treated by homoeopathic vets do not improve.

I myself have posted my reasons in detail, several times, with appropriate links. Others have done the same. Kumar essentially ignores every argument and just returns to his assertion that it works. I therefore reserve the right to say no more in this thread (or in the equally fruitless diabetes thread), not because I have no answers to Kumar's devastating logic (which is in fact so puerile it's hard to take it seriously at all), but because I think he's as daft as a brush and not worth the effort of continually repeating sensible points only to have them ignored.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 04:30 PM   #55
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,162
To my fellow skeptics,
I have been impressed by the quality of writing, the wit and the analysis in this thread. Thank you, it has been entertaining. I particularly enjoyed CurtC's summary and Rolfe's wide range of knowledge and thoughtful responses.

To Kumar,
You have been a good sport and except for getting pissed at me , (reasonable enough because I was being a bit of jerk) you've accepted a lot of arguments against some of your basic beliefs with good cheer. Thank you.

I have a question for you Kumar. What would you do if your buddy came to you and said that he felt much better because he was wearing a special crystal around his neck? When you asked him about it he told you that they had sold thousands of them and people all over the world believed the crystal worked. When you talked to him about it some more he told you that he could tell when he had the crystal on by just how much better he felt when he was wearing it.

Would you accept the fact that the company had sold thousands as evidence that the crystal worked? Would you doubt your buddy's story? Would you suggest to him that he do some kind of test to make sure he could really tell that it was the crystal and that he just wasn't fooling himself? Are there some kinds of alternative therapies that you are particularly skeptical of? What are they?
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 04:53 PM   #56
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
There is nothing to avoid in this question. I will never apply for money sake for myself due to the reason as mentioned by me. I am fully satisfied on myself about the working & therefore trying to satisfy myself 'that how homeopathic remedies work'. Curicities can lead to research or inventions or solutions. All dedicated science persons may experiance this type of cuticity & '?' marks which is to be satisfied otherwise it will go on pinching.
Kumar, you HAVE avoided the question entirely because you have not answered it at all.

It is clear that you are a person who will believe absolutely anything just because lots of other people do too. That means you are very gullible and naive. That also means you are not really thinking about this at all. Great advances are only made by people who DO think different from everyone else, which you are obviously not doing, and not TRYING to do.

Do you even know what a placebo is, for a start?
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 05:29 PM   #57
Terry
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,433
Quote:
Originally posted by Rolfe

[... not talk to Kumar any more ...] because I think he's as daft as a brush [...]
Rolfe.
Which, for the benefit of our non-British readers, means very very silly indeed.

--Terry.
Terry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 09:10 PM   #58
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Thanks again to all for telling again everything other than the main question. If we will go on discussing in this way it will just a repeat of 'yes' & 'no' with no materialiastic value. I do not say that whatever you are telling is incorrect considering the limits of the current science research as on today. But it can not be taken as an absolute fact till its science is found or these alt. systems ends in themselves. Fake things can't exist for long like placebo effects. Crystals, gems etc. can create some biological/biochemical changes by their shedding of minute particles(degradation & homeopathic effects) & due to so-called ' Piezoelectricity ' effect. All mantras & good/bad words can also create some vibrations and ultimetely the change in body biochemical's activities. To bring out anyone from misconceptions(wake up effect), fastings etc. makes anyone to work better is also a part of spritual system but do not mean that these do not work.

However, I shall be thankfull if you can give some unbiased informations on the topic's main question.

Best wishes.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 09:14 PM   #59
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
You're right Rolfe - he's off his trolley, a sandwich short of a picnic, has a kangaroo loose in the top paddock, doesn't have all his oars in the water, etc, etc.

Daft as a brush!
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 30th October 2003, 09:16 PM   #60
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
However, I shall be thankfull if you can give some unbiased informations on the topic's main question.

Best wishes.
The answer to your main question is because the higher the fewer.
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 01:27 AM   #61
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Quote:
The answer to your main question is because the higher the fewer.
Zep,

Why all have indulged in so much discussions for such a short reply which probably can't be further dicussed??
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 09:30 AM   #62
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,608
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Fake things can't exist for long like placebo effects.
They can and they do. But usually they're called religion. There are hundreds of religions around the world, many existing for thousands of years, which believe contradictory claims (which means that most of them cannot possibly be correct). And yet people still believe them. So it should be rather obvious to anyone but a creduloid that people not only can but DO believe in nonsense for VERY long periods of time. The fact that people still believe in nonsense is not evidence that there is any basis for that nonsense. And you can't settle on a single idea, you jump from one wild unsupported speculation to another, because you don't know what you're talking about. Here's a clue: it's not because there's something mysterious out there that nobody has figured out yet, it's because you're looking for something that doesn't exist. You believe in magic, Kumar, and trying to dress it up in the language of science isn't going to change that.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 07:25 PM   #63
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Quote:
The fact that people still believe in nonsense is not evidence that there is any basis for that nonsense.
Who knows who is wrong or who is right. Why a minority allways think that they are only right against a majority. Why new technologies find in itself only that these are only correct inspite of the fact that just 100 or some more years old against other older systems which may be thousands years old. Who knows that whatever is shown to us & hypnotised on us is only correct & other things given by our respected ancesstors is allways wrong. If we want to accept that our ancesstors & forefathers were nothing but fools,illitrates,speculative & taught us nothing but the only non-sense.

There are some good & bad points in every system & we should accept & follow good points as no system may be a complete system.

Now, I noted that we have everything here except the awnser of the main question so it is useless & just waste of time to discuss furthur on this issue.

Thanks all for the postings.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 07:44 PM   #64
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar


Who knows who is wrong or who is right.


no one but by examing to everdince we can been almost certan

Why a minority allways think that they are only right against a majority. Why new technologies find in itself only that these are only correct inspite of the fact that just 100 or some more years old against other older systems which may be thousands years old.

Age of system is not relevent what matters is that it can do what it claims.

Who knows that whatever is shown to us & hypnotised on us is only correct & other things given by our respected ancesstors is allways wrong. If we want to accept that our ancesstors & forefathers were nothing but fools,illitrates,speculative & taught us nothing but the only non-sense.

Are ancestors were working within the limits of the information they had avaible. We have far more information than they did so it is to be expected that a lot of what are ancestors thought will be shown to be incorect.

There are some good & bad points in every system & we should accept & follow good points as no system may be a complete system.

True but first we have to be shown that these points atchuraly exist.

Now, I noted that we have everything here except the awnser of the main question so it is useless & just waste of time to discuss furthur on this issue.

Asuming that you are talking abot the static eletricty then the answer is simple ; no. Latter you claimed homeopathy worked by magic so there is no point trying to find a scientific method

Thanks all for the postings.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 08:56 PM   #65
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Whatever you say may be correct here. I don't understand why we explore moon,other planets & other things which may not give any materiastic gains except just to satisfy our curicities. I probably can show you in reality from the naked eyes that earth is flat but you can not show me similarily that it is round or oval. More practical & logical thing is that which we can see from our naked eyes not from the camera. Like 'Sun rises from the east' inspite of the fact it is stable. A man can be said as white or black whereas he is mostly red inside. If you will say he is red or Sun is stable or earth is round or oval, it makes no sense for the practical purposes. If we will assume that we are standing on a round or oval ball, we can not feel ourselves as stable & so will fall on one day. We are loosing so many things by going in so many technicalities. Any Child can loose his parents or their free gifts & blessings to him, if he asks the technicalities of being their son/daughter. Who will be at loss then???
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 31st October 2003, 10:40 PM   #66
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,162
I think what Kumar said is that by being skeptical or overly analytical we can miss some of the more important things in life.

I think there is truth to that, but for many of us curiosity and skepticism (which I see as highly related) are intrinsically part of life and we can't just decide not to be those things because we would like to be more appreciative of some other part of life even if we wanted to.

It seems like Kumar is struggling to be in two camps at once. On the one hand his skepticism is driving him to find a more analytical basis for his ideas and on the other hand he doesn't want to give up any of the ideas that he has found comfort in. Unfortunately for Kumar there is not much room to stand between the two camps.

If one believes in astrology or homeopathy or healing crystals or religion or other such things one is not going to find much analytical support for these notions in the skeptical camp where ideas are scrutinized and discarded when contrary evidence is found.

So, Kumar, I wish you well. Many times, as you have pointed out, there is no great value in a correct understanding of the actual situation. A view based on what feels good can be more beneficial (although its hard for a skeptic to accept this) than some understanding of the actual situation. You seem to be one of those individuals that may actually have something of a choice as to which camp to be in. You can stay with the views that comfort you and find solace that most of the world is happy with that approach or you can chose to challenge and analyze your views and discard the ones that the evidence leads you to believe are false.

My sense of it is that this foray into skeptical thinking will be your last. I think you are close to deciding that you are happy just believing than going through some troubling introspective challenges to your core ideas. This may very well be the right decision for you and I wish you well if that is the choice you make.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2003, 12:17 AM   #67
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Mr.devefoc& others,

It is not a right approach to reject any existing aspect just because it could not be seen properly. I can also speak as under:-

Prove me the earth is round or oval not flat

Any aspect unless experienced or seen personally & physically by the majority of world population, can not be taken as proved. All the camera photography can be just a trick photography & all the mentionings or teachings can be just a hypnotisms for the Vested Interests i.e. money, popularity & publicities. One of the said best achievement of CS is that they made earth as round/oval from flat but not yet seen/experianced physically by majority of world's population. Science can not confirm/prove it unless this majority check it like a ball in their fingers. Whereas, in all practical & physical experiences it is flat. If it is round like a ball how we can stand errect & stable. How water & things on it are stable. I say it can be fake mentionig that it is round/oval because all the things can be stable on flat surface not on round surface.

Most of the scientific new research may work in this manner. Whereas homeopathy along with other sprituals are physically experianced by this majority.

In the above considerations, how you can prove Current science & disprove homeopathy along with other sprituals?
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2003, 01:36 PM   #68
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,162
Kumar,
I hope that I have understood you here. I think you are discussing the notion that the truth of nothing (except arguably mathematics) is absolutely knowable.

I say the shape of the world is approximately spheroidal. I list the reasons why I believe that. You say no, God fools you into believing this, the world is actually flat. Your idea can not be disproved. Nor can any other idea that argues that the world is actually flat that depends on untestable ideas.

It seems that you are also making an argument that if a lot of people come to know that the earth is shaped approximately spheroidally based on their personal observation that this would serve as proof. Why? It is not much more difficult to fool a lot of people than a few people. I think the answer here is that our limited knowledge of the nature of the universe makes the acquisition of absolute truth impossible.

So how should we handle our inability to know the truth absolutely? Should we say to ourselves that everything is possible and there is no purpose in sorting out the likely from the unlikely and we should just believe what ever we feel like. Or perhaps we should decide we're not capable of sorting out the likely from the unlikely individually but if a whole lot of people believe something then that's enough proof and we should believe that too.

It is not irrational to follow either course. But neither course is open to a skeptic. It is in our nature to believe that some things are true even if we can't know that absolutely and to make assessments as to the likelyhood that something in true or false. We don't quite understand how it is that other people can accept things as true just because that belief makes them feel better or because lots of people hold that belief.

So for you Homeopathy works and there is magic in the world.

You are comforted by these beliefs and lots of other people believe them. For many people this is all that is required for a basis for belief. And no skeptic no matter how much evidence he puts forth can disprove the belief. Underlying all arguments that a skeptic makes about the nature of the world is a belief in Occam's razor. And if this basic idea is wrong than the skeptic is wrong.

That is to say that in general the more straightforward an explanation is the more likely it is the right one and the more complicated an explanation needs to be to justify a particular conclusion the more likely it is that it is the wrong one.

Homeopathy is a perfect case in point. There is no credible evidence of effectivity in controlled studies and there is no plausible physical mechanism to suggest that homeopathy is effective. The simple explanation is that homeopathy is not effective. The complicated idea is that homeopathy is effective because of some supernatural or unknown physical mechanism and that for some unknown reason homeopathy can't be tested like other medical disciplines.

Based on those facts a skeptic will decide for all pratical purposes it is reasonable to conclude that homeopatthy is ineffective and move on. The homeopathy believer will draw no such conclusion and based on the comfort he derives from the belief will continue to see homeopathy as effective. And no amount of discussion will ever create a consensus between the two groups.
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2003, 06:40 PM   #69
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
davefoc,

Thanks for compromising posting. Now we can understand that we can not prove few things absolutely of any system whether it is homeopathy or science. We have to keep faith in certain people who have observed that. We can not prove scientifically the effects of God on us, still most of the population believe & keep full faith in it. If science want to reject other spritual systems then they have to reject this concept first because everything may be based on the same. I have seen big doctors & scientist praying God, keeping his ideals in their clinics, wearing gem stones,visiting the holy places etc., inspite of that they say we don't believe in spritual systems. If science could not be yet prove those with their available methods, it does not mean that everything is over. They will have to come out with new methods to check them properly & till then these confusions & contradictions will go on...
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2003, 09:17 PM   #70
Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
 
Eos of the Eons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
Quote:
because one who can know ( entitled by God to know ) will not do it for sake of money & one who want to do it for sake for money can never know, the real logic


Uh huh.

If one knows how it works it is because god let him know, he can't let us know how it works because it would then mean he really doesn't know how it works, because God wouldn't let one such as him to know.

Yeah.
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it.
the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey
my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke
The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!
Eos of the Eons is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 1st November 2003, 09:23 PM   #71
Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
 
Eos of the Eons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
Quote:
We can not prove scientifically the effects of God on us, still most of the population believe & keep full faith in it
Yeah, cause they're bullied into it, and lied to. Hell, there is a whacko in the middle east saying that the world is flat cause his god says so, and if noone else believes it, then they don't believe in that god.

You're also told to believe in god or you'll go to hell.

You're also told that scientists are liars. So you don't believe their proof, and you don't learn how they got to those conclusions. S**t, people were killed for saying the planet was round.

If you're prevented from learning how things work or don't work, then you can only believe what you are told.

I know that there is no proof there are any gods, and there's more than enough proof that this planet was not made in 7 days.

There is also more than enough proof that the 200 year old homeopathy theory is illogical and doesn't work. Like cures like? Arsenic cures arsenic poisoning? Frucking idiotic.
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it.
the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey
my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke
The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!
Eos of the Eons is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 03:07 AM   #72
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
Eos of the Eons,

Thanks for 'as usual' remarks which are common in highlighting each other's therapy.

You're also told that scientists are liars. So you don't believe their proof, and you don't learn how they got to those conclusions. S**t, people were killed for saying the planet was round.

As you do for homeopathy.

If you're prevented from learning how things work or don't work, then you can only believe what you are told.

As you also believe/behave.

I know that there is no proof there are any gods, and there's more than enough proof that this planet was not made in 7 days.

There can be proof provided we want to know.

There is also more than enough proof that the 200 year old homeopathy theory is illogical and doesn't work. Like cures like? Arsenic cures arsenic poisoning? Frucking idiotic.

There are much more then proofs available, those are treated patients, repeted patients, inreasing numbers of patients, continuty in tratment & so on...
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 03:38 AM   #73
DangerousBeliefs
Graduate Poster
 
DangerousBeliefs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,299
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
There are much more then proofs available, those are treated patients, repeted patients, inreasing numbers of patients, continuty in tratment & so on...
Here's where we get back to learning how to think correctly Kumar.

What you describe is anecdotal evidence. Which patients? For what problems? What treatment?

http://www.cuyamaca.net/bruce.thomps.../anecdotal.asp

Is homeopathic treatment better than alternatives? If so, where is the evidence to show this? You can't just say "I've got tons of eye witnesses."

The truth is that there is strong evidence regarding homeopathic treatment... and it shows that said treatment is no better than doing nothing at all (factoring in the placebo effect ).
DangerousBeliefs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 05:01 AM   #74
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
DB,

Placebo effect can be applicable in all systems unless it is poison or toxic substance. If so many cases can be treated by PE via homeopathy then it is better then the best. The main purpose is to cure without adverse effects with minimum doses.

You may find so many homeopathy cured cases at following links;

http://www.spiritindia.com/homeopathy_cases.html

http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en...e+Search&meta=

Good Luck.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 06:21 AM   #75
DangerousBeliefs
Graduate Poster
 
DangerousBeliefs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,299
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
DB,

Placebo effect can be applicable in all systems unless it is poison or toxic substance. If so many cases can be treated by PE via homeopathy then it is better then the best. The main purpose is to cure without adverse effects with minimum doses.

You may find so many homeopathy cured cases at following links;

http://www.spiritindia.com/homeopathy_cases.html

http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en...e+Search&meta=

Good Luck.
Again, this is ancedotal evidence... but... reading through the "case studies", I came across commentary by Dr E B Nash.

On my way home I stopped my horse two or three times to turn around and go back and give that poor suffering woman some medicine.

Uh... I stopped my horse?

What year was Dr. Nash born? Oh yea.... 1838!!!!

__________________
Posting and you...
DangerousBeliefs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 04:52 PM   #76
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,773
Looking through all this, my conclusion is that Kumar is suffering from an excess of open-mindedness. What?, I hear you exclaim! But open-mindedness is surely the highest virtue, how can someone have it to excess?

Sometimes your mind can be so open that your brain falls out.

Or, remember that an open mind also has to be open to the possibility that a pet theory may be total nonsense.

An open mind is an admirable approach to a new idea, but once sufficient evidence is available, failure to come to a conclusion is merely evasive.

Kumar seems totally incapable of assimilating evidence, in particular evidence which doesn't support his wide-eyed credulity of any and every form of woo-woo under the sun. He is now resorting to refusing to believe anything which is not entirely within his own first-hand experience, which is a pretty good way for the human race never to advance beyond about the iron age.

OK, I tried homoeopathy, and it didn't work on me. I've seen many animals treated with homoeopathy, and I have seen conclusive laboratory evidence that their condition was unchanged by the treatment. If that isn't worthy of equal weight to Kumar's assertions, I want to know why.

If we never accept a reasonable point of logic or a reliable, repeatable account from anyone else, we'll probably still be trying to figure out how to boil an egg by the time we die (probably of starvation....)

I enjoy reasonable debate, but as someone already observed, we're several sandwiches short of a picnic here, and personally, I've had enough. If no reasonable point is even discussed never mind accepted, is there any purpose to discussion?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 05:15 PM   #77
DangerousBeliefs
Graduate Poster
 
DangerousBeliefs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,299
Quote:
Originally posted by Rolfe
Sometimes your mind can be so open that your brain falls out.
Nice to see someone bump this thread... I'm beginning to think Kumar is now avoiding answering.

FOR THE LOVE OF ED, THE MAN WAS BORN IN 1838!

(Ok, I'm better now. By the way Kumar, I looked some more of your other "case studies" doctors... several more of these guys died around the time my grandfather was born, also. So of that page of "case studies", the best they could do is quote information from the mid to late 1800s. If that doesn't smack you in the head about the validity of homeopathy, nothing will.)
__________________
Posting and you...
DangerousBeliefs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 05:41 PM   #78
Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
 
Eos of the Eons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
Quote:
If you're prevented from learning how things work or don't work, then you can only believe what you are told.
As you also believe/behave.

.
I am not prevented from learning 'how homeopathy works'. I am not going on what I am told. No homeopathic remedy has helped my exzema. It just got worse.

Damn pills were prolly 100% sugar.
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it.
the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey
my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke
The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!
Eos of the Eons is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 08:02 PM   #79
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,870
DB> What do you mean by born in 1838?

Read some current cases at;

www.medicalhealthcures.com/read_curedcases.cfm

It takes long time to get full cure, it can be possible you may not be getting proper/right treatment. Sometimes HR do not work if you take allopathic medicines alongwith. There can be so many failures in allopathy also, then why don't we reject it fully. It is just how you think about any system. Every one feels better & safe in his own home.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2003, 08:10 PM   #80
Eos of the Eons
Mad Scientist
 
Eos of the Eons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
Quote:
It takes long time to get full cure,

Right, until you get better on your own or die. Just keep funding the homeopath until either happens.
__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it.
the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey
my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke
The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!
Eos of the Eons is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:13 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.