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Old 19th April 2015, 10:30 AM   #121
Kumar
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Use something that works instead.
That only, I am trying to discuss. I think nuclear weapons, global warming tools, pollution tools do work.
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:37 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Tell me, suppose 3rd world war happens(I shall not wish) and all nuclear and non-nuclear weapons are used, what will be its impact on earth and on universe.
For the earth: probably the equivalent of one of the many devastating natural events (asteroid impacts, snowball earth, supervolcanoes etc) which have previously occurred.

For the universe: zero.
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:39 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
That only, I am trying to discuss. I think nuclear weapons, global warming tools, pollution tools do work.

What are "global warming tools" and "pollution tools"? And why would you even consider using nuclear weapons for healthcare?
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:45 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Dear Friends,
Greetings!

Just simple questions:-

1. Can predicted or estimated age of anything or being be affected by following unnatural modern interventions?

2. Can odd or unnatural modern interventions in nature bring major changes on earth or at universe level in view of following theories?

Relevant physical theory:
•Butterfly effect
•Cascading failure
•Causality
•Chain reaction
•Snowball effect
•Entrophy Change
Hormesis

This is not related to alt. systems.

Best Wishes
Friendly reminder, check spelling, define terms (many do not mean what you think they do based on your statements), don't make up abbreviations - many are standard and it can be confusing if you make up your own because you are lacking the correct one.......
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:47 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
I suspect Kumar means a global warming mechanism.

E.T.A.: If not, perhaps Kumar has a tool shed with marked tools on the wall: wrench, screwdriver, global warming.
This is quite possible based on past communications, not to mention I await with baited breath finding out how to win an entrophy - and what you win it for.
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:49 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The cost/benefit analysis for any single innovation is almost impossible to calculate, let alone the sum total of all of them which is what you seem to be demanding.

But we can compare life expectancies in the modern world with those in the past, and see that with the entire package of "modern interventions" they have increased.
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:22 AM   #127
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I am being curioused fellow over why the skin from the hair should be pulled - and when?
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:37 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
This is quite possible based on past communications, ...
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
...
Global Warming tools: whatever increase global warming eg. heat generated by vehicles, airconditioning,Industries, by nuclear and non nuclear usages. etc.
What do I win?
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:41 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
That only, I am trying to discuss. I think nuclear weapons, global warming tools, pollution tools do work.
An ironing board for ironing works.
A screw to attach planks works.
A word processing program for making documents works.
A light bulb for reading in the dark works.
A spade for digging a hole works.
etc etc.
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Old 19th April 2015, 12:13 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Unnatural: to which no inharent sense of right and wrong is there.

Anyway, I know you know what I am asking. Pls give direct awnser instead of pulling skin from hair.
But the sense of right and wrong IS unnatural. Its a human construct based upon our own cultural upbringing and accumulated experiences (or something similar)
nature just is. There is nothing unnatural and wrong about malaria. Or earthquakes. Or polio. Yet we seek to prevent or predict to avoid these things anyway because they harm us. And in the case of polio we actually succeeded at that by stepping away from baseless superstition and using science based medicine.
And without fear-mongering quacks we might have done that to measles as well by now.
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Old 19th April 2015, 12:56 PM   #131
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Learning Engrish can be going backward actualy!

Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I am being curioused fellow over why the skin from the hair should be pulled - and when?
Puling hair from skin is naturel inharant right and wrong. Puling skin from hair is modern unaturel introvection, with gobal heating tool at least if not more.

You must pls be knowing this and not dong Time Wasting Talks.

I am only Friend of Kumar he greeted at begin. Rest of you must can go be fun else other place.
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Old 19th April 2015, 01:06 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
But the sense of right and wrong IS unnatural. Its a human construct based upon our own cultural upbringing and accumulated experiences (or something similar)
nature just is. There is nothing unnatural and wrong about malaria. Or earthquakes. Or polio. Yet we seek to prevent or predict to avoid these things anyway because they harm us. And in the case of polio we actually succeeded at that by stepping away from baseless superstition and using science based medicine.

The "inharent [sic] sense of right and wrong" stuff is just Kumar's attempt to define "natural" as meaning "stuff Kumar approves of".
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Old 19th April 2015, 02:22 PM   #133
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Post withdrawn.

Last edited by Craig B; 19th April 2015 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 19th April 2015, 03:35 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
...
You must pls be knowing this and not dong Time Wasting Talks.
...
How about if we doing TTTT?

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
...
I am only Friend of Kumar he greeted at begin. Rest of you must can go be fun else other place.
That is inharent sense of wrong Kumar have saysed friends, I am alreadies more than six so I can counts to more than one so he must meaning evelybody so not only you is friend of Kumar.
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Old 19th April 2015, 05:34 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Dear Friends,
Greetings!

Just simple questions:-

1. Can predicted or estimated age of anything or being be affected by following unnatural modern interventions?

2. Can odd or unnatural modern interventions in nature bring major changes on earth or at universe level in view of following theories?

Relevant physical theory:
•Butterfly effect
•Cascading failure
•Causality
•Chain reaction
•Snowball effect
•Entrophy Change
Hormesis

This is not related to alt. systems.

Best Wishes
Just simple answer.

Why are you posting here instead of in a woo woo forum?
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Old 19th April 2015, 06:46 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No I am trying to better understand reduced age due to following unnature and can unnature cause propagating, chain reaction type affects and reduce normal age. May it be age of all things and beings on earth or on universe--say so thought BIG BANG occur early.
Umm... sorry. It makes my brain hurt to even try to decipher what you're saying here. It's like you're talking in code or something. I guess I'll just bow out of the thread.
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:06 PM   #137
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It turns out that overall life expectancy has increased, not decreased, over the time we have had these "unnatural tools".



"Life Expectancy at Birth by Region 1950-2050" by Rcragun - Own work. Licensed under CC BY 3.0 via Wikimedia Commons
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:41 PM   #138
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I felt sorry by noting double satandards of posters. While they do not agree on A&F they expect A&F from me. I now take behaviour of posters as non-cooperative leading to derailing of this thread. Still lastly, instead of "natural & unnatural" posters can take it as "normal & abnormal"--may not be in quality but is in quantity.
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:42 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It turns out that overall life expectancy has increased, not decreased, over the time we have had these "unnatural tools".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1950-2050.png

"Life Expectancy at Birth by Region 1950-2050" by Rcragun - Own work. Licensed under CC BY 3.0 via Wikimedia Commons
This is one angle. We do not know what will be absolute outcome on final.
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
For the earth: probably the equivalent of one of the many devastating natural events (asteroid impacts, snowball earth, supervolcanoes etc) which have previously occurred.

For the universe: zero.
But, development and hudge quantity nuclear and non nuclear odd were never existed previously in older times.
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Old 19th April 2015, 08:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
But, development and hudge quantity nuclear and non nuclear odd were never existed previously in older times.
If this is a tilt at achieving immortality in a single post, then congratulations.

I have a box of happen, to the locust a teacup if you carrot.
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Old 19th April 2015, 09:20 PM   #142
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:00 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It turns out that overall life expectancy has increased, not decreased, over the time we have had these "unnatural tools".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._1950-2050.png

"Life Expectancy at Birth by Region 1950-2050" by Rcragun - Own work. Licensed under CC BY 3.0 via Wikimedia Commons
Yeah, but I've sort of heard that this is not due so much to people living longer in old age as it is to people having less of a tendency to die young due to childhood disease, crib death, etc.

That is, the actual change is mostly in the younger portion of the population, rather than the older portion.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't personally know what the hell I'm talking about. It's just a vague memory of something I've read.

I'm also still not entirely sure what this thread is about... so we may or may not be in disagreement on whatever the actual point was.

Last edited by Manopolus; 19th April 2015 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:01 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
But, development and hudge quantity nuclear and non nuclear odd were never existed previously in older times.
So?

What has that to do with either the question you asked or my answer?
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:05 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is one angle. We do not know what will be absolute outcome on final.

Here's an example of radical medical intervention for you to ponder on:

July 1983 - potts fracture type III. Very painful until the man arrived with the gas. 6 hour wait for surgery during which many drugs were injected directly into blood stream. 1.5 hours in the operating theatre, during which machines kept me alive and drugs kept me asleep so I didn't have to endure the pain of surgery.

Result - decreased movement of left ankle, unable to properly stretch calf muscle, but not crippled, retained my foot, and could walk and jog under my own power.

April 2015 - gastrocnemius tear sustained while jumping onto a traffic island half way across a busy street. The affected calf muscle is above the ankle I damaged back in 1983. It's almost certainly the result of shortening in that muscle over many years.

So there you go...one radical intervention probably lead to another injury. Damn you western science-based medicine (shakes fist at sky).

But had radical intervention not occurred in 1983, and I sustained this injury 100 years ago, I'd have been crippled from the age of 17. Had I lived when humans were still viable prey for things with many teeth, I probably wouldn't have lasted another 12 months.

As it is, even now the most likely outcome is full recovery thanks entirely and exclusively to western science-based medicine. Even the constant pain I'm currently enduring is manageable thanks to development of Naproxen, a drug with potentially horrendous side-effects (I am so bwave ).

My prospects, quality of life and pain management owe nothing to the so-called natural world. Nature's default position is for me to become an easy meal for something else. That might suit the wider ecology, but it certainly doesn't suit me (shakes fist at sky).

As for homeopathy, you're welcome to it. I'm not against drinking water, but I'll get mine from the tap and cannily avoid paying a huge premium for it.
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:06 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is one angle. We do not know what will be absolute outcome on final.
This is raw data. We know what the average life expectancy is, and in most parts of the world it is higher than it was in 1950.
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Old 20th April 2015, 12:35 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So?

What has that to do with either the question you asked or my answer?

Kumar wants "modern interventions" to be "unnatural" (i.e. bad) so we can go back to using the sort of ineffective (but with "inharent sense of right and wrong") interventions he favours, so that we do not weaken the human race by "propagating unfits to bring unfitness":

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Simply, whether today's prefered interventions are not effecting "surrvival of fittest" & propagating unfits to bring unfittness?

Sometime I am convinced with your prefered system as most valid as on date in view of whatever opposed nature's prime goal will correct it by adversities in view of "nature balances itself" & one who dig pit..... , for every action there is....etc. If one want to get graces of nature his acts should be aiding to nature whose prime goal is "balance, homeostasis(God)" neither excess of positives(angels) nor of negatives(devils) etc. because excess of everything is considered to be bad--on either side.
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Old 20th April 2015, 12:43 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Originally Posted by Kumar
This is one angle. We do not know what will be absolute outcome on final.
This is raw data. We know what the average life expectancy is, and in most parts of the world it is higher than it was in 1950.

I think he's claiming that because science is not "absolute and final" we can't tell from the increased life expectancies that people are actually living longer.
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Old 20th April 2015, 12:47 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Kumar wants "modern interventions" to be "unnatural" (i.e. bad) so we can go back to using the sort of ineffective (but with "inharent sense of right and wrong") interventions he favours, so that we do not weaken the human race by "propagating unfits to bring unfitness":
His basic error seems to be the assumption that nature has a 'prime goal', or indeed any goals at all.
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Old 20th April 2015, 01:42 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Hormesis

Mojo
Quote:
That gives the game away.
Are you conflating homeopathy with hormesis??..

Homeopathy is not in his list.

Quote:
Hormesis (from Greek hórmēsis "rapid motion, eagerness," from ancient Greek hormáein "to set in motion, impel, urge on") is the term for generally favorable biological responses to low exposures to toxins and other stressors. A pollutant or toxin showing hormesis thus has the opposite effect in small doses as in large doses. A related concept is Mithridatism, which refers to the willful exposure to toxins in an attempt to develop immunity against them. Hormetics is the term proposed for the study and science of hormesis.
Quote:
In toxicology, hormesis is a dose response phenomenon characterized by a low dose stimulation, high dose inhibition, resulting in either a J-shaped or an inverted U-shaped dose response. Such environmental factors that would seem to produce positive responses have also been termed "eustress."

The hormesis model of dose response is vigorously debated.[1] The notion that hormesis is important for chemical risks regulations is not widely accepted.[2]

The biochemical mechanisms by which hormesis works are not well understood. It is conjectured that low doses of toxins or other stressors might activate the repair mechanisms of the body. The repair process fixes not only the damage caused by the toxin, but also other low-level damage that might have accumulated before without triggering the repair mechanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

There is some evidence that low dose radiation stimulates the immune system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis

The implications being that regulations are too strict for radiation dose

Homeopathy is total bunk.
Hormesis a valid if poorly understood biological response to various stressors.
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Old 20th April 2015, 01:44 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Are you conflating homeopathy with hormesis??..

Homeopathy is not in his list.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

There is some evidence that low dose radiation stimulates the immune system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis

The implications being that regulations are too strict for radiation dose

Homeopathy is total bunk.
Hormesis a valid if poorly understood biological response to various stressors.
I don't think Mojo is confusing the two, it's more having long experience of how a Kumar thread inevitably progresses.
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Old 20th April 2015, 01:47 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No I am trying to better understand reduced age due to following unnature and can unnature cause propagating, chain reaction type affects and reduce normal age.
What reduction of normal age are you thinking about? The median age of humans have been greatly increased during the last century or so.
The median age of domestic animals (unless we slaughter them) is way above what it would be under natural contitions.

Quote:
May it be age of all things and beings on earth or on universe--say so thought BIG BANG occur early.
No. In the big picture, all things happen naturally. Human civilization, warts and all, is also natural.

Hans
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:00 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I felt sorry by noting double satandards of posters. While they do not agree on A&F they expect A&F from me. I now take behaviour of posters as non-cooperative leading to derailing of this thread. Still lastly, instead of "natural & unnatural" posters can take it as "normal & abnormal"--may not be in quality but is in quantity.
Nonsense, Kumar. You have the heaviest double standards, here:

- Your posts are barely understandable, yet you demand clear answers.

- You want to impose your own standards for practically everything, but frown on others using their standards (even when those standards are widely accepted ones).

- You are stomping off accusing others of not cooperating earlier and earlier. This not only looks sillier and sillier, but YOU are the one not cooperating in these discussions. YOU are the one attempting to impose your strange standards on everyone else.

- Finally, you are a hypocrite. You keep talking about 'natural' and alternative meds, but neither you nor me would currently be alive without the modern medicines that you call unnatural.

...

There, you can now report me, as you have done before when I have told you the truth.

Hans
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:32 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
What reduction of normal age are you thinking about? The median age of humans have been greatly increased during the last century or so.
The median age of domestic animals (unless we slaughter them) is way above what it would be under natural contitions.
This is different story and just a micro level. I am worried about macro levels. Simply, suppose nuclear and non nuclear abnormalities continue. Suppose 3rd world war happen(I do not wish so) and all nuclear weapons are used, how it will impact us, to earth and to universe. One is direct damage and other thought is multiplying effects like chain reactions etc.



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No. In the big picture, all things happen naturally. Human civilization, warts and all, is also natural.

Hans
This time, we are bit different in nuclear and non nuclear odds than what were in older times. In some theories, epoch/era, comple destruction, Big Bang etc. are indicated. I do not think direct damage can bring that, therefore i thought for some kind of chain reaction to effect it.
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:36 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Nonsense, Kumar. You have the heaviest double standards, here:

- Your posts are barely understandable, yet you demand clear answers.

- You want to impose your own standards for practically everything, but frown on others using their standards (even when those standards are widely accepted ones).

- You are stomping off accusing others of not cooperating earlier and earlier. This not only looks sillier and sillier, but YOU are the one not cooperating in these discussions. YOU are the one attempting to impose your strange standards on everyone else.

- Finally, you are a hypocrite. You keep talking about 'natural' and alternative meds, but neither you nor me would currently be alive without the modern medicines that you call unnatural.

...

There, you can now report me, as you have done before when I have told you the truth.

Hans
Sorry, I do not feel like it. We have to see both pros & cons of any new/unnatural system. Anyway, as I indicated in my previous post, it is different story now.
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:40 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Are you conflating homeopathy with hormesis??..

Homeopathy is not in his list.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

There is some evidence that low dose radiation stimulates the immune system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hormesis

The implications being that regulations are too strict for radiation dose

Homeopathy is total bunk.
Hormesis a valid if poorly understood biological response to various stressors.
I just used Hormesis term, as an example about possibilty of multiplicity in effect, not related to homeopathy. Pls do not derail this thread by using "homeopathy" word henceforth in this thread.
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:48 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is different story and just a micro level. I am worried about macro levels.
Making your own definitions again? The increase in life-expectancy and general health is true for ALL humans who have the good luck to be able to apply our "unnatural" medicines.

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Simply, suppose nuclear and non nuclear abnormalities continue.
WHAT abnormalities? Be specific.

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Suppose 3rd world war happen(I do not wish so) and all nuclear weapons are used, how it will impact us,
It will impact us very badly. It might wipe us all out.

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to earth
Oh, Earth will recover. Earth has seen worse in the past.

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and to universe.
It will make no measurable difference to the universe.

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other thought is multiplying effects like chain reactions etc.
A chain reaction is not a multiplying effect, any more than a normal fire is. When the fuel is exhausted, it stops.

Hans
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Old 20th April 2015, 02:49 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
... all nuclear weapons are used, how it will impact us, to earth and to universe. One is direct damage and other thought is multiplying effects like chain reactions etc.
...
If you have already decided that this is the case, through what mechanism would such an effect multiply onto the universe?
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Old 20th April 2015, 03:04 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by macdoc View Post
Are you conflating homeopathy with hormesis??..

No, but Kumar is probably trying to.

Quote:
Homeopathy is not in his list.

He frequently claims that threads he starts are not about homoeopathy, but they very often seem to involve Just Asking Questions about the same phenomena that he tries to shoehorn into his arguments for homoeopathy, hormesis being a prime example.

Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
I don't think Mojo is confusing the two, it's more having long experience of how a Kumar thread inevitably progresses.

Yup.
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Old 20th April 2015, 03:14 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Nonsense, Kumar. You have the heaviest double standards, here:

- Your posts are barely understandable, yet you demand clear answers.

His attempted justification of this is rather revealing:
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Take the time to learn English and stop using unconventional abbreviations. Learn to spell check.
It is better to remain bit unclear in this unclear(not yet absulute( world.
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