ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Affordable Care Act , AHCA , donald trump , health care issues , health insurance issues , obamacare , Trumpcare

Reply
Old 19th July 2017, 05:23 PM   #361
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,506
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that the 26-or-under provision was an ACA innovation. Before that, insurance companies could cut children off at 21.

And one alternative under the old system was to rack up huge medical bills, then declare bankruptcy. That was one of the primary causes of bankruptcy under the old system. Of course, that person would never get insurance again, unless he found a job that provided it, and maybe not even then.
You're right, of course. I knew that but failed to account for it - and that has been pretty popular with parents IIRC.

Yes, bankruptcy is an option. I know a woman whose son racked up a *$3 million* medical bill after a freak accident and his parents were allowed to keep an apartment and working vehicle. After all this - their son died in another freak accident. The son by then was covered as an indigent, IIRC.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 05:26 PM   #362
Tony Stark
Philosopher
 
Tony Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
The majority of Congressional Republicans are literally evil.
Tony Stark is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 05:26 PM   #363
newyorkguy
Philosopher
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,203
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sensible politics for the Democrats would see them having a new healthcare act that fixes the problems with the current legislation and give it to the Republicans and say "here is a plan with X votes in the bag". That would preempt the accusations it is the Democrats causing the problem.
I think at the present time it might be better for the Democrats in Congress to stay out of this mess. They undoubtedly do have some fixes in mind for the problems with ACA -- and even Obama conceded that ACA could use some overhauling -- but in the present climate it might be smarter for the Dems to stay quiet and keep their heads down. No matter what they say or do the Republicans will find a way to cast it as negative.

Trump repeatedly promised, boasted actually, to have a better healthcare plan, giving much better care than ACA at lower cost and that would "cover everyone." This is what he told the Washington Post in January:
Quote:
“We’re going to have insurance for everybody,” Trump said. “There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.” People covered under the law “can expect to have great health care. It will be in a much simplified form. Much less expensive and much better.” Link
He's certainly not saying that now. And this is the problem. He has consistently been, at best wrong and at worst dishonest, about the kind of replacement plan his administration would come up with. Yet when the contradictions between what Trump promised and what he is trying to deliver -- cover everybody versus 20 million people become uninsured -- his supporters go into denial/attack mode. This just doesn't seem like the time when reasonable bipartisan policy-making has much of a chance.

Last edited by newyorkguy; 19th July 2017 at 05:27 PM.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 05:57 PM   #364
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 14,206
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Watching a Stephen Colbert clip and he brought up the fact that the Republicans voted 60 times to repeal the ACA when Obama was in the White House. As soon as you have Republican President they can't muster the votes to get a repeal measure through. It seems like it was all just theatre to keep the tea-party crowd happy but their terrified of the prospect of an actual repeal.
Yup. It's easy enough to vote for something when you know you'll never have to face the repercussions. When you're actually making law that will effect your constituents, not so much.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2017, 07:32 PM   #365
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 63,901
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yup. It's easy enough to vote for something when you know you'll never have to face the repercussions. When you're actually making law that will effect your constituents, not so much.
Which is just what Paul Ryan and the House GOP voted to do, pass the buck to the Senate.

Now McConnell is pretending voting to move the bill forward isn't really committing to anything. Makes one worry though, what sleazy trick he has up his sleeve.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:32 AM   #366
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by Worm View Post
<snip>

There's nothing in the Constitution (as far as I'm aware) about Healthcare, so is there any statutory obligation to provide it?

<snip>

Part of your confusion stems from the fact that you are discussing two different things in the same sentence.

The Federal Government can take on just about any "statutory" obligation it chooses to. That's because it makes the statutes.

The Constitution provides the guidelines for the structure of the government, and describes a few things it must do and a few that it isn't allowed to do.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:37 AM   #367
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As much as I dislike Trump,this "all Republicans are either evil or stupid or both' routine is getting annoying.

I agree.

If only we could get them to stop being both.

Or either, even.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:51 AM   #368
Tony Stark
Philosopher
 
Tony Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626

https://twitter.com/foxnewspoll/stat...97950440652800



https://twitter.com/foxnewspoll/stat...09529240588290
Tony Stark is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:56 AM   #369
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 23,218
Except that "compromise" means that the Democrats should completely abandon their ideas and merely accept whatever the GOP wants.

Heck with Obamacare that's pretty much what they did and then the GOP moved their position significantly to the right. You cannot work with people who deal in such bad faith
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 01:00 AM   #370
Tony Stark
Philosopher
 
Tony Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Except that "compromise" means that the Democrats should completely abandon their ideas and merely accept whatever the GOP wants.

Heck with Obamacare that's pretty much what they did and then the GOP moved their position significantly to the right. You cannot work with people who deal in such bad faith
People don't think that Democrats should agree to gut Medicaid, for example. Nor will they. That is an exceptionally unpopular idea.

Rather they think Republicans should drop that idea.
Tony Stark is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 03:49 AM   #371
paulhutch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 2,019
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The Constitution provides the guidelines for the structure of the government, and describes a few things it must do and a few that it isn't allowed to do.
That is perhaps the most succinct, accurate description of COTUS I've ever seen, well done.
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 04:24 AM   #372
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,780
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I think at the present time it might be better for the Democrats in Congress to stay out of this mess. They undoubtedly do have some fixes in mind for the problems with ACA -- and even Obama conceded that ACA could use some overhauling -- but in the present climate it might be smarter for the Dems to stay quiet and keep their heads down. No matter what they say or do the Republicans will find a way to cast it as negative.
I agree. The GOP would welcome any distraction, for one thing, and for another "Never interrupt the enemy when they're making a mistake". A Dem plan would simply provide the GOP with something to unite against - the only kind of unity they seem capable of.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 04:43 AM   #373
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
That is perhaps the most succinct, accurate description of COTUS I've ever seen, well done.

Ah, shucks.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 05:30 AM   #374
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,354
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You're right, of course. I knew that but failed to account for it - and that has been pretty popular with parents IIRC.

Yes, bankruptcy is an option. I know a woman whose son racked up a *$3 million* medical bill after a freak accident and his parents were allowed to keep an apartment and working vehicle. After all this - their son died in another freak accident. The son by then was covered as an indigent, IIRC.
Why would the son's bills go to the parents?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 05:38 AM   #375
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why would the son's bills go to the parents?

The son was a minor?

or ...

They co-signed for him to get treatment?

or ...

There are probably more possibilities. Those are just the first two that came to mind.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 12:02 PM   #376
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,782
Trump has no understanding of what insurance is:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.40cec668a3f5
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 01:27 PM   #377
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump has no understanding of what insurance is:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.40cec668a3f5
Interesting. I'd been assuming that Trump's promises about insurance back on the campaign trail were just shameless lies. It never occurred to me that he might be sincere but entirely divorced from reality. I wonder what he thinks Obamacare is.
Civet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 02:20 PM   #378
newyorkguy
Philosopher
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,203
I got paywalled on Bob's link but Googled up another one. This is Donnie describing how healthcare insurance works:
Quote:
Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance [starts], youíre 21 years old, you start working and youíre paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time youíre 70, you get a nice plan.
Okay so the Donmeister doesn't understand how healthcare insurance works. This is what I liked that the Post writer added to the article:
Quote:
The point of Obamacare was to increase the number of healthy people paying into insurance pools so that coverage for those with preexisting conditions could be expanded. An insurance program that only covers the very sick would either have to limit coverage or have expensive policies. A program that has healthier people paying in can help keep costs down for those who need it. Healthy people donít always want to buy insurance, though, which is why Obamacare has a mandate: have insurance or pay a tax penalty.
The Republicans don't like making healthy people buy healthcare insurance in order to expand coverage for people with preexisting conditions. Or charging a cash penalty for healthy people who simply refuse to buy a healthcare policy. The problem is, as I've heard economists say, if you want to make health insurance affordable for everyone that's the only way it can work, other than a single payer system.

So the GOP has a problem. They are more or less publicly committed to maintaining expanded healthcare coverage but won't accept doing it the way ACA does and there is no other way other than a single payer. The fact they tried to go about this by forming a replacement bill in secret, so no one know would know how bad it was until it was too late...it's actually hard to believe anyone would do something like that. Even Republicans.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 02:30 PM   #379
Tony Stark
Philosopher
 
Tony Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
Does Trump this that health insurance and life insurance are the same thing?
Tony Stark is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 03:01 PM   #380
Civet
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,255
Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Does Trump this that health insurance and life insurance are the same thing?
In all seriousness he really might be confusing aspects of the two. It fits with his apparently real surprise that fixing health care was a difficult and complicated thing and his frustration with the inability of Congress to come up with a good solution quickly.
Civet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 03:21 PM   #381
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,261
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Trump has no understanding of what insurance is:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.40cec668a3f5
But health insurance is confusing. Didn't you know that?

I really wish politicians would stop trying to develop health insurance. None of them know what the heck they're doing. This idiot least of all.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 04:45 PM   #382
Kestrel
Philosopher
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,876
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But health insurance is confusing. Didn't you know that?

I really wish politicians would stop trying to develop health insurance. None of them know what the heck they're doing. This idiot least of all.
Before the ACA doctors often had to call insurance company clerks with high school diplomas to get permission to treat a patient.

No, Congress didn't implement the ACA so it followed insurance company practice. Requiring anyone apply for insurance had to fill out a detailed medical questionnaire before they can even get an individual quote. Society wasn't well served by that absurd complication.
Kestrel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 10:50 PM   #383
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,782
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But health insurance is confusing. Didn't you know that?

I really wish politicians would stop trying to develop health insurance. None of them know what the heck they're doing. This idiot least of all.
You think private insurance companies should be able to do whatever they want? Medicare and Medicaid were developed by politicians. Every country that has universal coverage got a system created by their politicians. The problem with the U.S. is that our right-wing politicians reject the core principle that everyone is entitled to basic health care, which in our country is paid for by insurance of one kind or another. The ACA is so complicated because so many conflicting interests had to be accommodated, as the Republicans have started to understand.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 11:34 PM   #384
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,782
Trump used ACA money to make anti-ACA videos:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...id=mailsignout
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2017, 11:36 PM   #385
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,782
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I got paywalled on Bob's link but Googled up another one.
.....
What will often beat paywalls is to clear your history and cookies. It resets the counter on your "free" reads.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 01:07 AM   #386
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,717
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What will often beat paywalls is to clear your history and cookies. It resets the counter on your "free" reads.

Or opening the link in an "incognito" window.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 01:19 AM   #387
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 12,547
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Interesting. I'd been assuming that Trump's promises about insurance back on the campaign trail were just shameless lies. It never occurred to me that he might be sincere but entirely divorced from reality. I wonder what he thinks Obamacare is.
I don't think he needs to know. It's Obama-something, so it's bad and he's against it.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 01:31 AM   #388
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,955
Like with Bush Jr., not knowing **** is supposedly fine if you got knowledgeable people around you and have a willingness to educate yourself.
Trump has neither.
__________________
ďI donít believe in astrology; Iím a Sagittarius and weíre skeptical.Ē - Arthur C. Clarke
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 03:14 AM   #389
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,354
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But health insurance is confusing. Didn't you know that?
Clearly no one knew that before the election. Thank god we have the worlds best deal maker on this exerting all of his skills to improve the situation. Just like all those who voted for him wanted.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 04:13 AM   #390
newyorkguy
Philosopher
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,203
President Donnie has announced that now his "healthcare plan" is to let "Obamacare fail."
Quote:
"We’ll let Obamacare fail, and then the Democrats are going to come to us.” Link
With, of course, some help from the Donmeister. Here's what he's doing already:
  1. Weaken enforcement of the individual mandate.
  2. Impose work requirements for Medicaid recipients.
  3. Fail to do advertising or outreach.

Here's what he plans:
  • Make tax credits for premiums less generous.
  • Defund subsidies that help people pay out-of-pocket costs.
  • Redefine essential health benefits.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 04:25 AM   #391
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 13,346
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But health insurance is confusing. Didn't you know that?

I really wish politicians would stop trying to develop health insurance. None of them know what the heck they're doing. This idiot least of all.

Part of the problem, probably a very minor part, and one I've mentioned before, is that some people don't need insurance, they need healthcare:

From the article:

"for someone born with a heart condition, for example, there was no halcyon period in their 20s when they could pay into the system without needing more back in coverage"

In this instance you can't have any sort of conventional, individual 'insurance' here. No underwriter ever, without coercion, is going to insure a risk that's already happened.

What you can have is a risk pool, a collective insurance where all who pay in know that they're paying for the long term sick but accept that because we live in an interlinked society.

However, the greatest ever American has already spoken, so that can't happen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an-LPcover.jpg
__________________
Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 04:28 AM   #392
newyorkguy
Philosopher
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 9,203
President Trumpmeister is committed to doing everything he can to get rid of Obamacare yet the strange reality is:
Quote:
A new Washington Post/ABC News poll found voters prefer Obamacare to the Republican health bill by a 2-to-1 margin ó 50 to 24 percent...Surveys find that Medicaid enrollees really like their coverage; theyíre just as satisfied as people who get health insurance at work. Indeed, the Medicaid expansion has proven so popular, and so effective, that Senate Republicans from Medicaid-expanding states like Ohio and Nevada have been fighting to preserve it. Link

D'oh! Stupid people!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Angry Donnie.jpg (28.2 KB, 8 views)
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 08:40 AM   #393
lomiller
Philosopher
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,703
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I think at the present time it might be better for the Democrats in Congress to stay out of this mess. They undoubtedly do have some fixes in mind for the problems with ACA -- and even Obama conceded that ACA could use some overhauling -- but in the present climate it might be smarter for the Dems to stay quiet and keep their heads down. No matter what they say or do the Republicans will find a way to cast it as negative.

Trump repeatedly promised, boasted actually, to have a better healthcare plan, giving much better care than ACA at lower cost and that would "cover everyone." This is what he told the Washington Post in January:


He's certainly not saying that now. And this is the problem. He has consistently been, at best wrong and at worst dishonest, about the kind of replacement plan his administration would come up with. Yet when the contradictions between what Trump promised and what he is trying to deliver -- cover everybody versus 20 million people become uninsured -- his supporters go into denial/attack mode. This just doesn't seem like the time when reasonable bipartisan policy-making has much of a chance.
The basic problem is that Republicans have an almost religious belief in the idea that less regulation is always better (As opposed to the more balanced approach of Democrats which has been to either increase or decrease government involvement as needed to reach an optimal solution.), so they assume they can always make things better and cheaper by cutting taxes and reducing regulations. The only people left on the Republican side of the isle fall into one of 2 categories, those who are shocked when this turns out not to be the case, and those who insist you just need to double down and somehow it will all work out eventually.

They all start out with the belief that things will automatically be better until they start to flesh out the policy, which inevitably brings the two into conflict. In the interest of party unity, they avoid trying to assemble real policy but they are now in a spot where they canít avoid it. Sadly, the result of this internal conflict is likely to be that Republicans are likely to eject any party member who isnít willing to double down on polices that all available facts say will fail and cause enormous damage.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 09:48 AM   #394
Kestrel
Philosopher
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,876
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The basic problem is that Republicans have an almost religious belief in the idea that less regulation is always better (As opposed to the more balanced approach of Democrats which has been to either increase or decrease government involvement as needed to reach an optimal solution.), so they assume they can always make things better and cheaper by cutting taxes and reducing regulations. The only people left on the Republican side of the isle fall into one of 2 categories, those who are shocked when this turns out not to be the case, and those who insist you just need to double down and somehow it will all work out eventually.

They all start out with the belief that things will automatically be better until they start to flesh out the policy, which inevitably brings the two into conflict. In the interest of party unity, they avoid trying to assemble real policy but they are now in a spot where they canít avoid it. Sadly, the result of this internal conflict is likely to be that Republicans are likely to eject any party member who isnít willing to double down on polices that all available facts say will fail and cause enormous damage.
The magic of the marketplace will solve all problems if we just get government out of the way.

That was almost exactly what Rush Limbaugh was saying about health insurance a couple days ago.

In reality the goal should be an efficient market. One where both buyer and seller fully understand the product or service and offers from different suppliers can be easily compared. The ACA exchanges are a good step in that direction.
Kestrel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 10:02 AM   #395
The Great Zaganza
Master Poster
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,955
Healthcare will never be a model market: if it's literally a question of life and limb, economic considerations go out of the window, and everyone knows it.
That's why it needs massive supervision and a good deal of regulations.
__________________
ďI donít believe in astrology; Iím a Sagittarius and weíre skeptical.Ē - Arthur C. Clarke
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 10:08 AM   #396
WilliamSeger
Master Poster
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,499
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Healthcare will never be a model market: if it's literally a question of life and limb, economic considerations go out of the window, and everyone knows it.
That's why it needs massive supervision and a good deal of regulations.
Yup, there was no invisible hand smacking the **** out of Martin Shkreli.
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 10:09 AM   #397
lomiller
Philosopher
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,703
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post

In reality the goal should be an efficient market. One where both buyer and seller fully understand the product or service and offers from different suppliers can be easily compared.
Yup, and to take that a step farther, sometimes an efficient market requires less regulation and sometimes it requires more. The problem with US politics at the for the last 25 years Democrats have been aiming to find the right amount of regulation and right amount of taxation to make the market efficient while Republicans have simply argued for less in all cases at all times regardless of the consequences.

This has left the US with very few cases of over-regulation, many cases of under-regulation and a President+Congress with a near religious commitment to deregulating already under-regulated things and cutting taxes to levels below that required to pay for things Republicans want to spend on.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 12:26 PM   #398
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,261
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Before the ACA doctors often had to call insurance company clerks with high school diplomas to get permission to treat a patient.

No, Congress didn't implement the ACA so it followed insurance company practice. Requiring anyone apply for insurance had to fill out a detailed medical questionnaire before they can even get an individual quote. Society wasn't well served by that absurd complication.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You think private insurance companies should be able to do whatever they want? Medicare and Medicaid were developed by politicians. Every country that has universal coverage got a system created by their politicians. The problem with the U.S. is that our right-wing politicians reject the core principle that everyone is entitled to basic health care, which in our country is paid for by insurance of one kind or another. The ACA is so complicated because so many conflicting interests had to be accommodated, as the Republicans have started to understand.
You both read my post completely differently from what I intended. Allow me to clarify:

Having politicians design health insurance is like having politicians design automobiles. Sure, they might decide that everyone has a right to a car, and that every car should have airbags, and that quality brakes are a requirement... But that's significantly different from designing a car where the transmission, engine, and drive train all work together efficiently and effectively. Would you trust even your most favorite politician to design a car for you to drive? I sincerely hope you would not.

This is similar.

So long as they wish to maintain some element of private insurance, they should be seeking expertise from the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, The American Medical Association, and the American Academy of Actuaries to make sure that what they design is sustainable and actually works.

That's not at all implying that insurance companies should be able to do whatever they want, nor is it implying that they should roll back to the market as it existed pre-ACA.

But politicians who know nothing at all about how insurance works, how to manage and mitigate risk, how to adapt to moral hazard and adverse selection, and how to ensure a solvent operation... should NOT be trying to design insurance. There's a reason there's an entire testing and oversight body for actuaries. It's actually complicated!
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 12:27 PM   #399
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,261
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or opening the link in an "incognito" window.
Oooh nice tip - I get tired of never being able to read NYT articles people link to!
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2017, 12:30 PM   #400
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 9,261
Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The magic of the marketplace will solve all problems if we just get government out of the way.

That was almost exactly what Rush Limbaugh was saying about health insurance a couple days ago.

In reality the goal should be an efficient market. One where both buyer and seller fully understand the product or service and offers from different suppliers can be easily compared. The ACA exchanges are a good step in that direction.
The problem is that health insurance (all insurance actually) is not, and has never been, a free market.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.