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Tags church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 8th July 2017, 08:27 PM   #81
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
All religions are in decline in the West with some declining faster than others. The RCC is definitely declining faster than most others. As for poorer nations. They are more susceptible to superstitions and religion. There is direct inverse corollary between the wealth and education levels of a country and it's religiosity.
I'll let the folks in Qatar know about that, i am sure they will be shocked.

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Old 8th July 2017, 08:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'll let the folks in Qatar know about that, i am sure they will be shocked.


Typically The Big Dog comes out with one example (and not a good one) to question someone else's thought out post. If you were to look at the video acbytesla linked us to you would find a firm rebuttal.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg
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Old 8th July 2017, 09:04 PM   #83
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Hey The Big Dog, if I can have your attention, what are your thoughts on Pell?

Some months back you came out all guns blazing, in defense of Mother Teresa against a lot of counter fire, so how about the cardinal?
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Old 8th July 2017, 09:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'll let the folks in Qatar know about that, i am sure they will be shocked.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typically The Big Dog comes out with one example (and not a good one) to question someone else's thought out post. If you were to look at the video acbytesla linked us to you would find a firm rebuttal.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg
It's not even my assertion. There are more than a few studies that demonstrate this. I found it very persuasive.

I do have a few questions for the Big Dog. The first is. Do you have children? The second is, are your children as religious as you?
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Old 8th July 2017, 10:12 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to America's religiosity compared with other countries. It was Americans (deriving their theologies from people like Quimby and Kenyon) who first turned the idea that wealth equals morality into a doctrine. Combine that with plutocratic systems of election funding and you essentially get to a place where religion equals wealth equals power.

Of course, it's more complicated than just this - like I said, there are probably many factors that contribute to it.
I suspect another factor is that a motivation for many of the first immigrants was seeking somewhere they could practice their strongly held religious beliefs without interference. So the original population was already more religious than average, and perpetuated that tendency through early indoctrination down the generations.
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Old 8th July 2017, 10:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Diddling while Rome falls.



Doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get home, does he?
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe he's thinking about making a stop in Bangkok.
Flying from Rome to Australia in one hop is a long flight. I think it is reasonable for him to spend a few days in Singapore to rest*. As long as he turns up for his court appearance I am happy.

*This is true for anyone. I would say it is even more true if that person was the age of Bell.

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Old 8th July 2017, 10:27 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I suspect another factor is that a motivation for many of the first immigrants was seeking somewhere they could practice their strongly held religious beliefs without interference. So the original population was already more religious than average, and perpetuated that tendency through early indoctrination down the generations.
That's probably a factor, but I don't think it would be as significant as all that. After all, there's a fair bit of time and change between the Puritan colonists and the largely-Deist Founding Fathers. And even more time and change between them and modern America.
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Old 8th July 2017, 11:01 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's probably a factor, but I don't think it would be as significant as all that. After all, there's a fair bit of time and change between the Puritan colonists and the largely-Deist Founding Fathers. And even more time and change between them and modern America.
Yes, but there are parts of America which still seem to have more in common with the original colonists than with the Founding Fathers. I'm trying to work out why that is. Religious indoctrination through the generations is one possibility, though I'm sure there's more to it than that.
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Old 9th July 2017, 03:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Yes, but there are parts of America which still seem to have more in common with the original colonists than with the Founding Fathers. I'm trying to work out why that is. Religious indoctrination through the generations is one possibility, though I'm sure there's more to it than that.
Indeed. As I said, something like this is not amenable to a simple causal analysis.
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Old 9th July 2017, 04:18 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Indeed. As I said, something like this is not amenable to a simple causal analysis.
Two countries stand out as being more religious than their high levels of wealth and development would seem to account for. These are the USA and Italy.

Italy, of course, is the geographical centre of the largest single Christian denomination, but the reason for the religiosity of the USA is not so evident at first sight. Although they were not atheists, the Founding Fathers of the USA weren't particularly religious by the standards of their day. And there never has been an established state religion in the USA, unlike in Italy.

It is mildly mysterious.
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Old 9th July 2017, 04:31 AM   #91
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It's not much of a mystery at all. All sorts of religious communities who felt themselves persecuted in Europe fled to the USA, and then started breeding.
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Old 9th July 2017, 05:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's not much of a mystery at all. All sorts of religious communities who felt themselves persecuted in Europe fled to the USA, and then started breeding.
Various European populations who were religious in the eighteenth century are still breeding, but have ceased to be religious. I suspect that there is some ideological, as well as purely demographic, reason for the persistence of religion in the USA
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Old 9th July 2017, 09:03 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Various European populations who were religious in the eighteenth century are still breeding, but have ceased to be religious. I suspect that there is some ideological, as well as purely demographic, reason for the persistence of religion in the USA
Indoctrination
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Old 9th July 2017, 11:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Flying from Rome to Australia in one hop is a long flight. I think it is reasonable for him to spend a few days in Singapore to rest*. As long as he turns up for his court appearance I am happy.

*This is true for anyone. I would say it is even more true if that person was the age of Bell.
The smart world traveller would not stop over in Asia but in the Americas. Los Angeles would be convenient, Mexico City or Lima perhaps slightly more interesting for the adventurous traveller, but I don't know if there are convenient direct flights to whereever he wants to go in Australia.

The reason is that jet lag is easier to compensate and quicker to get over when you fly west with the sun to make the day longer, than flying east against the sun and shorten the day.
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Old 9th July 2017, 11:14 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Two countries stand out as being more religious than their high levels of wealth and development would seem to account for. These are the USA and Italy.
...
Urrr.... got stats for that? I am not saying it's wrong, but it sounds a lot like an outdated cliché.
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Old 9th July 2017, 11:41 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The smart world traveller would not stop over in Asia but in the Americas. Los Angeles would be convenient, Mexico City or Lima perhaps slightly more interesting for the adventurous traveller, but I don't know if there are convenient direct flights to whereever he wants to go in Australia.

The reason is that jet lag is easier to compensate and quicker to get over when you fly west with the sun to make the day longer, than flying east against the sun and shorten the day.
Yeah I don't buy this. Although your explanation sounds good. It's about 8,000 more kilometers going West from Rome vs East. Around 24km vs 16km
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Old 9th July 2017, 11:55 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Typically The Big Dog comes out with one example (and not a good one) to question someone else's thought out post. If you were to look at the video acbytesla linked us to you would find a firm rebuttal.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg
The Country with the highest GDP is "not" a "good example."

'k.

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Old 9th July 2017, 12:03 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Country with the highest GDP is "not" a "good example."

'k.

Do you dispute the premise that the more educated and wealthy a society becomes the less religious it is?
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Old 9th July 2017, 12:17 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you dispute the premise that the more educated and wealthy a society becomes the less religious it is?
did you you miss the post where I destroyed that claim?

By the way, when did fake correlation become causation, anyway?
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Old 9th July 2017, 12:20 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yeah I don't buy this. Although your explanation sounds good. It's about 8,000 more kilometers going West from Rome vs East. Around 24km vs 16km
Assuming Sydney as the destination, it's not that bad: 22 Mm (Mega meters) via L.A. vs. 16 Mm via Singapore. But still, you're right, 6 Mm is a lot of a difference.

Some years ago, I flew with my mother, then 80 years old, from Frankfurt, Germany to Auckland, NZ. The way to via Vancouver was 19.3 Mm, the way back via Hong Kong was 18.2 Mm - a negligible difference, and with two nights in both Vancouver and HK, we managed the jet lag great.

I underestimated the effect the distances AUC-SYD and FRA-ROM would have.

(Distances determined using http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html )
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Old 9th July 2017, 12:33 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
did you you miss the post where I destroyed that claim?

By the way, when did fake correlation become causation, anyway?
I must have. Care to point it out?

I'm not a big fan of saying it is the cause. I do believe there is a correlation.

I don't think if a person gets richer they become less religious. But I do believe with better educations and opportunities superstitions are less appealing as answers. Feel free to provide evidence that disputes this. I'm always open to better data.
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Old 9th July 2017, 02:38 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Country with the highest GDP is "not" a "good example."

'k.


No it most certainly is not a good example for many reasons.

1. Although the GDP per capita is very high the ones earning the big bucks would be quite small as only 11.6% of the population are Qatari. The majority are non Qatari and probably earning peanuts doing all the manual work.
2. Only 3.5% of the GDP is spent on education ranking Qatar 154th in the World.
3. As the presenter giving the talk in the video acbytesla linked us to there is a delay factor in realizing the drop in religiosity due to better wealth levels. Quatar being a country of the "new rich" is a good example of this.
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Old 9th July 2017, 02:55 PM   #103
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Why is Qatar spnding so much money on education?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18151511

I betcha it is because they would notice that the 3.5% number you just gave was a gross number and not per capita? we did! Per capita that number goes to 9.6 which exceeds countries like Japan and Korea.

Oh the youtube guy says there is a delay? 2000 years or so? argumentum youtuian, very truthery.
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Old 9th July 2017, 03:08 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Assuming Sydney as the destination, it's not that bad: 22 Mm (Mega meters) via L.A. vs. 16 Mm via Singapore. But still, you're right, 6 Mm is a lot of a difference.

Some years ago, I flew with my mother, then 80 years old, from Frankfurt, Germany to Auckland, NZ. The way to via Vancouver was 19.3 Mm, the way back via Hong Kong was 18.2 Mm - a negligible difference, and with two nights in both Vancouver and HK, we managed the jet lag great.

I underestimated the effect the distances AUC-SYD and FRA-ROM would have.

(Distances determined using http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html )

As acbytesla pointed out it is much shorter going East than West (I make it about 7500 Km less using Google Earth), and the destination in Australia would be Melbourne not Sydney. Auckland, NZ is quite a bit shorter distance than Melbourne, Aust going West also.

Pell's problem (according to his own words when ducking out of the inquest attendance), was the long haul flights. I thought it a rather poor excuse at the time, as did many others, because going East you can break the journey into lots of small hops. Not so going West.
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Old 9th July 2017, 03:25 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Why is Qatar spnding so much money on education?
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18151511

I betcha it is because they would notice that the 3.5% number you just gave was a gross number and not per capita? we did! Per capita that number goes to 9.6 which exceeds countries like Japan and Korea.

Oh the youtube guy says there is a delay? 2000 years or so? argumentum youtuian, very truthery.

Well I looked at your news item and you may have scored a point about the education per capita angle. I got my figures from the CIA World Fact Book.

My points 1 and 3 still stand however and you would have to concede point 3 if you had the courtesy to watch the talk acbytesla linked us to. You would then see how silly your last line of gobbledegook was.
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Old 9th July 2017, 03:49 PM   #106
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Wow! Pell has arrived back in Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-1...arance/8692760

I have to admit I was wrong thinking he would pull some last minute trick to get out of facing the court.
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Old 9th July 2017, 04:56 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I looked at your news item and you may have scored a point about the education per capita angle. I got my figures from the CIA World Fact Book.

My points 1 and 3 still stand however and you would have to concede point 3 if you had the courtesy to watch the talk acbytesla linked us to. You would then see how silly your last line of gobbledegook was.
The other issue TBD is ignoring is that the transformation takes time. The impact is made through the generations. This is why I asked him about whether he had children or not and if his kids were regularly attending. Someone who is raised in the church regularly attending is unlikely to stop identifying themselves as religious. What i do know is that churchs identify this as a big problem.

The people who use to attend 4 times a month attend 3 times a month and those that use to attend 3 times a month attend 1 to 2 times a month and so on. And religious indoctrination has declined as well.

I don't know what is a fact and what isn't. Maybe things are all honkey dorey, but my bet is that religiosity is waning.

Amen
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Old 9th July 2017, 06:46 PM   #108
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Transformation takes time.

As such everyone give the already disproved correlation time, or something.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 11
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:19 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Transformation takes time.

As such everyone give the already disproved correlation time, or something.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 11
That's another subject.
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Old 9th July 2017, 07:56 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Urrr.... got stats for that? I am not saying it's wrong, but it sounds a lot like an outdated cliché.
"the Pew Research Center estimates that the 2010 Catholic population in Italy was 49.2 million (or 81% of the total population). In France, it was 37.9 million (60%); in Spain, 34.7 million (75%); and in Germany, 27.1 million (33%).4 These are estimates of the number of people in each country who currently self-identify as Catholic." http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/05/d...ow-but-stable/
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:07 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hey The Big Dog, if I can have your attention, what are your thoughts on Pell?

Some months back you came out all guns blazing, in defense of Mother Teresa against a lot of counter fire, so how about the cardinal?

Never did get an answer on the above The Big Dog.

Given that Cardinals are appointed by Popes, one would think a bad Cardinal would reflect badly on the Pope who appointed him. It would cast some doubt on the ability of the Pope to measure the worth of someone, and this in turn would question his guidance by God.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:26 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Never did get an answer on the above The Big Dog.

Given that Cardinals are appointed by Popes, one would think a bad Cardinal would reflect badly on the Pope who appointed him. It would cast some doubt on the ability of the Pope to measure the worth of someone, and this in turn would question his guidance by God.
You might think that. It is not even vaguely true. The RCC plays fuzzball with their most scurrilous members. Take a look at pell, Smith et al.

As far as I know TBD is RCC and every time the kiddie diddling comes up he runs for cover. Much like the pope.

Now, raised as a "holy" RCC in the 93% catholic land of the leprechauns, I dropped the nonsense at about the same time as Santa. And I am not alone.

Consider that we were the very first country to legalise SSM by popular vote. As a rule, I don't do nationalism at all, but that did give me a feeling of national pride.

Murca somehow cannot catch up.
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Old 16th July 2017, 06:02 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You might think that. It is not even vaguely true. The RCC plays fuzzball with their most scurrilous members. Take a look at pell, Smith et al.

As far as I know TBD is RCC and every time the kiddie diddling comes up he runs for cover. Much like the pope.

Now, raised as a "holy" RCC in the 93% catholic land of the leprechauns, I dropped the nonsense at about the same time as Santa. And I am not alone.

Consider that we were the very first country to legalise SSM by popular vote. As a rule, I don't do nationalism at all, but that did give me a feeling of national pride.

Murca somehow cannot catch up.
The last Pope, Benedict was involved in hiding pedophile priests from the law. His overwhelming concern was the image of the church not any kind of justice.
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Old 16th July 2017, 07:18 PM   #114
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"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Almost 60 years ago I recall hearing these words at the beginning of "The Catholic Hour" on radio.

Back in those days the Catholics I knew seemed smug in their belief that they belonged to the "One True Church", so secure in their conviction that their top man was the real thing, and their church service (mass) was being conducted by men beyond reproach who had been ordained by God himself.

The Catholic who read there Bible and quoted verse was rare I think as I never met any. So it seemed to me the strength of the faith of the Catholic did not come from scripture, but from the church itself and unquestioning belief in the clergy.

In the wake of all scandals in recent years it is the worthiness of these people, the clergy, that is in question today. Today we have the third highest ranking person in the church on trial for child sex abuse. A man who has already shown himself to be a liar in the testimony he has given to the royal commission in Australia.

Is it any wonder this church is collapsing in the West.
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Old 16th July 2017, 07:29 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Never did get an answer on the above The Big Dog.

Given that Cardinals are appointed by Popes, one would think a bad Cardinal would reflect badly on the Pope who appointed him. It would cast some doubt on the ability of the Pope to measure the worth of someone, and this in turn would question his guidance by God.
Gee, we'll take that up with John Paul II who has been dead for a decade.

Remember when people waited to convict until after trial?

Yeah, that no longer applies.

Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago was accused of similar charges by some lying **** who admitted that he made the whole thing up. Makes ya think huh?
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Old 17th July 2017, 04:10 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Gee, we'll take that up with John Paul II who has been dead for a decade.

Remember when people waited to convict until after trial?

Yeah, that no longer applies.

Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago was accused of similar charges by some lying **** who admitted that he made the whole thing up. Makes ya think huh?
Makes me think you didn't bother looking up the details.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:20 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"the Pew Research Center estimates that the 2010 Catholic population in Italy was 49.2 million (or 81% of the total population). In France, it was 37.9 million (60%); in Spain, 34.7 million (75%); and in Germany, 27.1 million (33%).4 These are estimates of the number of people in each country who currently self-identify as Catholic." http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/05/d...ow-but-stable/
You said Italy stands out as a "religious" country. "Religious" is not the same as "catholic", is it?
There may be more protestants, muslims and other religious folks in Spain, France, Germany.
Poland has more catholics (87%) and fewer non-religous (10% vs. 20%) than Italy, according to CIA World Factbook.
Portugal has more Christians, fewer unaffiliated than Italy.
Ireland has more Christians, fewer unaffiliated than Italy.
Greece is (officially) 98% Greek Orthodox.

USA has 23% unaffiliated, Spain only 21%. Italy 20%.

Also, identifying with some confession does not mean the people are more religious.


Italy and the USA ought not be singled out as exceptionally religious. specially in Italy, I believe that is a cliché that's becoming obsolete, I feel.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Makes me think you didn't bother looking up the details.

Don't get into the detail if it trips up your argument.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:49 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Gee, we'll take that up with John Paul II who has been dead for a decade.

Remember when people waited to convict until after trial?

Yeah, that no longer applies.

Cardinal Bernadin of Chicago was accused of similar charges by some lying **** who admitted that he made the whole thing up. Makes ya think huh?

Not a very impressive response sorry.

You missed the whole point which is something you seem to do quite effortlessly so often - not intentionally is it?

It is not any particular pope I am questioning the ability of, but the supposedly divinely inspired ability they exhibit as a whole.

Picking one example of a cardinal who may have been wrongly accused does not answer the fact so many clergy have been found guilty. A very poor response.

Sorry to harp on this but do you have anything to say about Pell?
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Old 17th July 2017, 03:07 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Sorry to harp on this but do you have anything to say about Pell?
Got Heaven for the climate, Pell for the company.
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